[ppml] ARIN IP conservation and FREE IP Addresses

desterdick at verizon.com desterdick at verizon.com
Sun Oct 7 06:57:20 EDT 2007


Like many empires today, Verizon's has evolved from a multitude of separate
enterprises with multiple autonomous networks, each with their associated
network policies and support work groups.  Throughout the multiple mergers
that formed what is now Verizon, (first Bell Atlantic and NYNEX, each made
up of multiple separate Bell Operating Companies, then GTE and then MCI and
other miscellaneous companies that have been acquired or spun off along the
way), there has been both organizational and network consolidation.
However, there are still multiple separate corporate entities within the
Verizon umbrella, along with multiple separate organizations managing
multiple autonomous networks.  Some of those networks support customer
facing networks such as Verizon Business and Verizon Internet Service.
There are also many other internal management networks, IT and lab
networks, and other internal corporate infrastructure networks.  The list
goes on.

My point is that while your claim that there is "No technical limitation
[that] prevents you from routing any Verizon address on down to a /32
anywhere within the empire that is Verizon" may or may not be correct,
there exist multiple legal, organizational, and operational limitations
that prevent that and a whole lot of other things that ideally could be
done better.  My opinion regarding the suggestion that Verizon, as an
"empire", is somehow gaming the IP addressing landscape to gain a
competitive advantage is that nothing could be further from reality.  I've
spoken with some internal IT folks who have mentioned that they were still
dealing with internal network integration issues from Bell Atlantic and
NYNEX merger when the MCI merger was taking place.  Many legacy registrants
within Verizon operate independently. Although ideally network
consolidation and renumbering will achieve better address utilization and
potentially better operating and organizational efficiency, such an effort
for an enterprise the size of Verizon could not only take a couple of
lifetimes, but due to other legal, organizational and operational
constraints may never be possible at all.




Mark W. Desterdick
Distinguished Member of Technical Staff - Technical Regulatory, Standards
and Industry Forum Management
Verizon Communications, Inc
221 East 37th Street, 4th floor
New York, NY  10016
+1 212 681-5626
+1 212 681-5626 - FAX

                      "William Herrin"                                                                                                 
                      <arin-contact at dir        To:       "Jason Schiller" <schiller at uu.net>                                            
                      tside.com>               cc:       ppml at arin.net, Jason Schiller <jason.schiller at verizonbusiness.com>            
                      Sent by:                 Subject:  Re: [ppml] ARIN IP conservation and FREE IP Addresses                         
                      ppml-bounces at arin                                                                                                
                      10/07/2007 02:48                                                                                                 

On 10/7/07, Jason Schiller <schiller at uu.net> wrote:
> Just for the record I was referring to Verizon Business... AS701
> (UUNET) which does not charge for IP addresses (not for business
> When you refer to Verizon you are likely talking about AS19262 Verizon
> Internet Services (VIS).  They are completely seperate networks run by
> This is not a stunt.  The data centers are managed as a separate network
> with a separate AS, and due to route aggregation policies, your data
> center /26 would not route correctly.  People sometimes have to renumber
> when they change networks... and yes that is painful.
> Just so you know the same would happen for longer than /24s from one
> continent being moved to another (Say UUNET North America and UUNET
> Asia-Pacific)


Given this behavior, legacy registrants should, for your sake, give up
their underutilized address blocks?

Those route aggregation policies are strictly internal to the Verizon
empire. Your company set them entirely on its own. No technical
limitation prevents you from routing any Verizon address on down to a
/32 anywhere within the empire that is Verizon. Certainly nothing
stops Verizon from moving addresses 20 miles within the same US state.

I'll bet you run the Ashburn data center as a separate AS. It provides
you with the largest obstruction possible against anyone moving out.

The next time folks on this list get to discussing provider
independent address space, I'll pull this post back out. I think it
beautifully illustrates real-world customer abuse which occurs as a
consequence of too much emphasis on provider aggregatable space.

> Yes, I agree it would be great if the "Local Internet Registries" did not
> charge for IP addresses (with them not being property and all), and that
> is why Verizon Business (UUNET) doesn't.  I can't speak for any other
> (including Verizon Internet Services (VIS).

Would you then support a dual fee structure? One for LIRs which change
their service prices based on the number of IP addresses assigned to a
customer and a second for LIRs which don't?

Bill Herrin

William D. Herrin                  herrin at dirtside.com  bill at herrin.us
3005 Crane Dr.                        Web: <http://bill.herrin.us/>
Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
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