[ppml] ARIN member in good standing?
Peter Sherbin
pesherb at yahoo.com
Tue Oct 3 00:06:04 EDT 2006
> Can you describe the data capture mechanism? I mentioned the
> billing system that would be required. Even if you discard
> payload and only keep source and destination addresses and packet
> size, you're talking about increasing network load by a
> significant amount (30%?). Billing data for an OC3 could be
> 16TB per month. Multiply hundreds of circuits times a five-year
> record-retention policy, and I get a 97PB database.
Assumption: need to count sent volumes only. A sending network or a node (SN) is
identified by its source address (SA). SN is connected to provider's distribution
router (DR). DR counts the length of all packets sent from SA and reports the total
number of bits to a database server. Database server maintains SA table with a
cumulative sent volume per each SA per month. Monthly volume is archived on a
server. Additional traffic needed is between DR and a server where DR only reports
SA and one number representing SA's sent volume e.g. every 1 hr. Billing system
collects the total volume per each SA from the database server once a month.
> I don't understand "unpaid volumes." You bill your customers.
In some cases volume based billing is announced but it may not necessarily be
enforced. Billing works OK for burstable circuits. A regular T1 would be provisioned
to accommodate e.g. about 0.5Mbps at a busy hour. Three T1s on a single DR may have
different usage patterns. E.g. one transmits at 1.2Mbps during 3hrs in the morning.
Second sends at 1.1Mbps at night for 6hrs. The third sends at 0.3Mbps 24hrs daily
with occasional bursts up to 1.5Mbps. Each pays $1,200 but over the month #1 have
sent 49GB, #2 = 89GB, #3 = 110GB. Sometimes providers would go after "abusers" who
exceed average usage tens or hundreds times. "Abusers" can be looked at as an
opportunity assuming they have a need to move data and are willing to pay for it.
> You keep saying "proper," as if to say that there is an established
> right way to do things.
"Proper" means following the basic logic of a process. E.g. in a world of a regular
mail or cargo shipments a sender pays for moving a certain number of molecules over
distance. Energy wise how does moving electrons fundamentally differ from moving
molecules? If electrons are too many to count let's define a countable network unit
representing a fair amount of electrons.
> I am not familiar with telecommunications licensing, but I do not
> have the impression that licenses are available to anyone. My
> impression is that the "certain criteria" are high. Does each
> coffee shop and private interconnect have to get a license?
The process is straightforward, as long as you meet all "high" criteria you will get
the license. If network services are defined and regulated then anyone who falls
under that definition is a subject to a license.
> So does this mean a new kind of governmental licensing agency,
> which works closely with the government tax collection agency,
> and the two agencies direct ARIN?
It is a matter of coordination between already established agencies, e.g. Tax and
FCC. Agencies feed ARIN with the number of subscribers by provider as well as
suggested fees. ARIN autonomously performs address allocation practice. ARIN
collects fees from all holders of licenses for network services.
> I'm unclear on the taxpayer-node relationship. Each taxpaying
> individual with a tax ID gets an allocation? What size?
Taxpayers are not homogeneous and need segmentation. How many addresses is enough
for a single individual? Assuming that at some point we will start fixing genes and
that human DNA consists of about 3 billion base pairs will /96 be enough? For the
start we may want to reserve more space and start experimenting with less.
> Each taxpaying organization with a tax ID get an allocation?
> What size?
Depending on what they can justify. Current ARIN approach works well here.
> Not to be pedantic, but are tax-exempt organizations eligible?
All tax-exempt organizations must be on the record as such with a tax agency, which
turns a tax agency into a single tracker of all economically active units, both
individuals and establishments.
> I was talking about IP address allocation. Say my company has
> offices in 14 states and two provinces, with leased lines between
> them, and three Internet connections. Do I get three assignments
> from my carriers, or 14? Or since I have leased lines, do I get a
> telecom license?
You will get your PI assignment directly from ARIN in the amount you can justify.
Whichever provider(s) serve your Internet connection(s) they will report it to ARIN.
You will get a telecom license if you meet all of the criteria for it in your region
and if you want to be engaged in a telecom business and if a contract with your
provider permits you to sub-lease lines.
> I pay taxes, so I'm entitled to a direct allocation from ARIN.
> But I don't know how much until I go to my ISP and buy service.
ARIN will tell you how many addresses you get as an individual taxpayer. From your
ISP you only buy an Internet connection.
> They tell their licensing agency how many subscribers they have,
> the licensing agency tells ARIN how many address to provide and
> how much to allocate.
ISP reports to ARIN the number of their Internet subscribers. ARIN solely decides
how many addresses to provide to whom. Licensing agency establishes a fee amount and
makes sure that paying the fee to ARIN is a requirement for an ISP license.
> When do I get mine?
As an individual taxpayer you are entitled to ARIN-determined address space.
> Do I pay ARIN or the ISP?
You pay to the ISP for the use of the service. ISP pays to ARIN a fee based on the
number of subscribers they have.
> How much do I pay? Can I use those addresses with any carrier?
You pay what your ISP charges you for the amount of traffic you send. Addresses are
allocated to you directly. When you change providers addresses remain with you. You
may be connected to several networks and send your traffic through whoever offers
the best rate.
> My wife pays taxes too. Does she get a separate allocation?
Yes, as an individual taxpayer.
> She's a programmer for an office-less company. Her company buys
> an Internet connection to our house. Does her work PC get an IP
> address based on her company's tax ID number, or hers?
She has a choice to use her own or her company based on whichever considerations.
> What's a top level licensee?
E.g. FCC in the US or CRTC in Canada.
> > In a case where two individuals have invested in a wire connecting their PCs
> > across the street they will not be a subject to ARIN fee as long as their
> > private network has no access to the Internet.
>
> What if one of them sets up community wireless?
If he is a philanthropist it benefits the community as long as this private network
serves its purpose. If he sells his services he either complies with or violates the
license regime, which is a matter of a local licensing office.
Thanks,
Peter
--- "Howard, W. Lee" <Lee.Howard at stanleyassociates.com> wrote:
> I'm going to defend the topicality of this subject insofar as it
> discusses allocation practice. Interconnect charges are not
> directly on topic, but may be an important part of why a model will
> or will not work.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Peter Sherbin [mailto:pesherb at yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 9:48 AM
> > To: Howard, W. Lee; ppml at arin.net
> > Subject: RE: [ppml] ARIN member in good standing?
> >
> > > You would bill the packet originator, not the destination?
> >
> > Yes, the originator of the packet pays to a transport provider
> >
> > >you would bill the peer network who sent the packet to you
> >
> > Peers cut the settlement based on volumes of packets they
> > exchange. A bit is a
> > single common cost driver on the internet. Any HW or network
> > design starts with
> > calculating bit volumes. Same should be extended to the
> > internet financials.
>
> Can you describe the data capture mechanism? I mentioned the
> billing system that would be required. Even if you discard
> payload and only keep source and destination addresses and packet
> size, you're talking about increasing network load by a
> significant amount (30%?). Billing data for an OC3 could be
> 16TB per month. Multiply hundreds of circuits times a five-year
> record-retention policy, and I get a 97PB database.
>
> > > How is your model better than what we have now?
> >
> > As a provider I support the infrastracture carrying unpaid
> > volumes while I am
> > challenged with capturing that revenue. We have what we have.
> > I guess this is a
> > constant search for doing things the proper way.
>
> I don't understand "unpaid volumes." You bill your customers.
>
> You keep saying "proper," as if to say that there is an established
> right way to do things.
>
>
> > > I don't understand whether you mean every organization should get a
> > > provider-independent address block and a telecommunications
> > license, or
> > > if you mean that only telcos should get PI address space,
> > and everybody
> > > else must accept assignments from telcos.
> >
> > Every taxpayer (entity or individual) within RIR area is
> > entitled to a certain
> > amount of IP (IPv6) address space. I assume a
> > telecommunication license is available
> > to anyone who wants it and meets certain criteria. Assignment
> > of the address space
> > goes directly from RIR to a taxpayer.
>
> I am not familiar with telecommunications licensing, but I do not
> have the impression that licenses are available to anyone. My
> impression is that the "certain criteria" are high. Does each
> coffee shop and private interconnect have to get a license?
>
> So does this mean a new kind of governmental licensing agency,
> which works closely with the government tax collection agency,
> and the two agencies direct ARIN?
>
> I'm unclear on the taxpayer-node relationship. Each taxpaying
> individual with a tax ID gets an allocation? What size?
> Each taxpaying organization with a tax ID get an allocation?
> What size?
> Not to be pedantic, but are tax-exempt organizations eligible?
>
> > > I'm not sure where you put large enterprise networks. Distributed
> > > offices, multi-homed networks, multi-national presences...
> >
> > The entity always carries the cost of the transport network
> > wether its own or leased from whichever provider.
>
> I was talking about IP address allocation. Say my company has
> offices in 14 states and two provinces, with leased lines between
> them, and three Internet connections. Do I get three assignments
> from my carriers, or 14? Or since I have leased lines, do I get a
> telecom license?
>
> > > So only telcos would get IP addresses from ARIN?
> >
> > Not only telcos but all taxpayers (individuals and entities)
> >
> > > In the U.S., would the regional licenser be the state PUC
> > or the FCC?
> >
> > Licensers at all levels in all countries within ARIN region
> > would need to provide to
> > ARIN subscriber counts from their licensees.
>
> This is all new, so forgive me while I try to put this together.
>
> I pay taxes, so I'm entitled to a direct allocation from ARIN.
> But I don't know how much until I go to my ISP and buy service.
> They tell their licensing agency how many subscribers they have,
> the licensing agency tells ARIN how many address to provide and
> how much to allocate. When do I get mine? Do I pay ARIN or
> the ISP? How much do I pay? Can I use those addresses with any
> carrier?
>
> My wife pays taxes too. Does she get a separate allocation?
> She's a programmer for an office-less company. Her company buys
> an Internet connection to our house. Does her work PC get an IP
> address based on her company's tax ID number, or hers?
>
>
> > > In your model, that agency would annually count the number
> > of Internet users
> > (people, households, businesses, or hosts?) the telco has,
> > multiply by some fee, and
> > tell ARIN how much to invoice.
> >
> > That is correct. Providers who routinely report on their
> > Internet subscribers
> > (connection users) will provide those numbers to ARIN. The
> > exact fee amount in a
> > particular country is up to the local top level licensee.
>
> What's a top level licensee?
>
> > In a case where two
> > individuals have invested in a wire connecting their PCs
> > accross the street they
> > will not be a subject to ARIN fee as long as their private
> > network has no access to
> > the Internet (that assumes that IP addresses per se are not a
> > sellable commodity, they are a common resourse).
>
> What if one of them sets up community wireless?
>
> Keep going, I want to understand where this road leads.
>
> Lee
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > --- "Howard, W. Lee" <Lee.Howard at stanleyassociates.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Peter Sherbin >
> > > >
> > > > The Internet is an electronic version of a global postal
> > > > service. As such it should
> > > > move to a proper financial model where each delivery is paid
> > > > for according to its volume and destination.
> > >
> > > That would be an exciting billing system! Every packet
> > would have to be
> > > logged with source address, destination address, and size. Another
> > > table
> > > to link IP address to billing address. You would bill the packet
> > > originator, not the destination? If the originator is not
> > a customer, I
> > >
> > > assume you would bill the peer network who sent the packet
> > to you. This
> > > implies some significant changes to many network peering
> > relationships,
> > > and you pretty quickly answer the question of which way
> > payment goes.
> > >
> > > You imply that the current model is improper, but I only
> > see analogy to
> > > support that implication. How is your model better than
> > what we have
> > > now?
> > >
> > > > Here is a proposed model:
> > > > PI addresses
> > >
> > > I don't understand whether you mean every organization should get a
> > > provider-independent address block and a telecommunications
> > license, or
> > > if you mean that only telcos should get PI address space,
> > and everybody
> > > else must accept assignments from telcos.
> > >
> > > > RIR invoices every entity with telecommunications licence in
> > > > the region a per sibscriber fee to cover admin expenses
> > > > Regional issuer of telecom licenses determines the fee amount
> > > > as well as makes such
> > > > fee a condition of the license (don't mean to regulate the
> > > > Internet but please share your comments)
> > >
> > > I'm not sure where you put large enterprise networks. Distributed
> > > offices,
> > > multi-homed networks, multi-national presences. I don't know which
> > > telco
>
=== message truncated ===
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