[ppml] Policy Proposal 2005-8: Proposal to amend ARIN IPv6 assignment and utilisation requirement - Last Call

Sat Apr 15 09:14:44 EDT 2006

A meta-question:

If you end up needing more than 256 subnets for your house, and have a /56
or even a /64, can you make your subnets /65's, /66's, etc?

-Scott

On 04/14/06 at 11:22pm +0200, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet at consulintel...:

> Hi Scott,
>
> See below, in-line.
>
> Regards,
> Jordi
>
>
>
>
> > De: Scott Leibrand <sleibrand at internap.com>
> > Responder a: <sleibrand at internap.com>
> > Fecha: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 16:35:25 -0400 (EDT)
> > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet at consulintel.es>
> > CC: "ppml at arin.net" <ppml at arin.net>
> > Asunto: Re: [ppml] Policy Proposal 2005-8: Proposal to amend ARIN IPv6
> > assignment and utilisation requirement - Last Call
> >
> > On 04/14/06 at 10:23pm +0200, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
> > <jordi.palet at consulintel...:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> While I don't agree with this proposal (I still believe a default /48 should
> >> be assigned to any end-site if is non-portable space),
> >
> > Why?  Do you think that a site with 65,000 subnets can claim to just be a
> > non-business residential customer?
>
> Yes I know from current research of services and products that will be in
> the market in the next few years, that residential customers will need more
> than 256 subnets.
>
> I'm not so convinced about 65.000 subnets, but I'm given the choice in
> between 256 subnets or 65.000 subnets, I much prefer to be sure than became
> short.
>
> And I'm still talking about homes (smart homes if you want to say), so
> residential customers, not business customers. However, there is more and
> more people working from their home, may be you want to consider them a
> special case also ;-)
>
> >
> >> I would accept it, if the final text of the policy make sure that an
> >> end-site has the right to request to the LIR for being upgraded from the
> >> /64 or /56 to the /48 without the need for a detailed justification (as
> >> otherwise may go against the end-site right to privacy) and the end-site
> >> can get that upgrade at no extra recurrent costs (a setup fee is
> >> acceptable if it match real costs for that and a small recurrent cost
> >> which match the *real* cost for that space as paid to the RIR will be
> >> also acceptable).
> >
> > This sounds to me like something *way* outside of ARIN's authority.
>
> I'm not sure in the case of ARIN, but in other registries, the charging by
> LIRs to end-customers is expected to be to cover their administrative costs,
> not to make money out of the addresses and ASNs, which are a human property.
>
> On the other way around, the LIRs need to understand that charging for the
> addresses at the end is against their business. I've already talked about
> this in other occasions. In Spain you pay typically 12 Euros for each IPv4
> address per month (while the cost of the ADSL line is now 20 Euros,
> including free national phone calls). Obviously the ISPs aren't making any
> *real* business, because almost none of the 4.5 million broadband users in
> the country pay for that. However, this makes almost impossible to the ISPs
> to deploy easily new services and applications which can be charged for and
> thus make much more profit than with the 12 Euros per address (not to say
> the extra cost of running NAT and providing support for the problems caused
> by NAT).
>
> Unfortunately, most of the ISPs, still don't see that and I doubt that in
> the short term they will see it. As said, I want to make sure that users
> don't end up paying for that and ISPs realize that the business is in the
> added value services and applications. Is the only way IPv6 will succeed.
>
> But even if you don't agree with me about the cost issue, may be you agree
> that the end-user don't need to justify why he needs more subnets and has
> the right to keep his privacy. This is clearly part of ARIN authority.
>
> Same with avoiding the renumbering, otherwise, we are unfair defining policy
> that avoid renumbering to LIRs, right ?
>
> >
> >> Is also important that the user upgrading from a /64 or /56 to a /48
> >> don't need to renumber, so I will suggest that the ISP need to keep
> >> reserved the complete /48.
> >>
> >> For those that believe that reserving the /48 is a space waste, I will
> >> suggest to understand that this can be changed in the future (possible in
> >> hundreds of years, in my opinion) if we really come into a situation where
> >> we have to use the reserved space, even if that means renumbering some or
> >> all the end-sites (I'm considering that most of the end-sites that will fall
> >> into this situation will be residential customers). Renumbering once in
> >> hundreds of years should not be considered as a trouble, as most probably,
> >> residential users don't keep the same provider for so long time ...
> >>
> >> What I'm trying to avoid here is the situation that we have today which
> >> users being forced to NAT and a single dynamic IPv4 address, which can turn
> >> in a few years from now in something similar if you only get a /64 and need
> >> /56 or /48.
> >
> > Do you think that a home network will need more than a million host
> > addresses within "a few years from now"?  I don't.
>
> Is not a question of how many addresses. It may be the case that we only use
> a few addresses of each subnet. That's fine, is part of the design of IPv6
> that we accepted, which has lots of advantages, like the capability to run
> auto-configuration, privacy, CGAs, and for sure more to come.
>
> >
> > I do agree that home users may want to run more than one subnet, and may
> > want more than one /64.  Therefore I agree with the guideline that /64's
> > should only be given out when it is known a priori that one and only one
>
> Which I will interpret as almost never a /64 should be given out (may be
> only for a cellular phone and only if it is not connecting other devices
> with other interfaces, otherwise is a mobile router).
>
> > subnet is needed, and that a /56 should be given out otherwise.  However,
> > I think that anyone who actually needs a /48 really should be considered a
> > business customer, not a residential customer.
>
> As said, this is no longer the case if we look to the situation that can be
> expected in a very few years.
>
> >
> > -Scott
> >
>
>
>
>
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