Public access to IN-ADDR zone files (was - Re: [ppml] A proposal to modify proposal 2003-9 WHOIS and INADDR access)

[william at elan.net]

I'll wait for an answer on this maillist from ARIN staff and if in their 
view policy is necessary step for them to release all in-addr zone files.

Also as representatives of all other RIRs are present, perhaps they would
like to comment if their RIR has policies in regards to INADDR access 
and if so what they are and how it is handled.

If it is clear INADDR policy is necessary and there are others on the mailing
list who think it should go together with whois, then I'll consider modifying
whois aup policy to include references to inaddr zones.

My others comments to your email inline...

On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, John Brown wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 12:44:26AM -0700, william at elan.net wrote:
> > 
> > Fine, lets get ARIN to listen and provide the data for all other /8 blocks!
> 
> I think that is an over statment, and certainly not something I'm asking for.

Yes, I sometimes make statements like that just go get the point across :)

> ARIN was clearly specifide and not the other RIR's.  For them they each
> have their proper venue, and its not here.

I only meant for /8 blocks in ARIN region (which is to include all legacy 
ip block currently under ARIN control). 
 
> > Still the question is do we need a policy for this? If we do should it 
> > actually require authentication similar to bulk whois to get the data or 
> > is current system of getting it by ftp enough?
> 
> Based on email from ARIN staff last fall, they used to provide the data
> upon request, but started refusing the data until there was a policy in
> place.  
>
> The ARIN AC (post my resignation) did not feel it was something in their
> scope as defined by the board.  THe board has said that the AC is to 
> deal with clear and crisp IP allocation policies only.   I think even
> the whois is not within their view based on the direction from the board.

Based on their recent behavior ARIN AC clearly saw whois as something in
their "view" even more then that as they tried to push everyone else out.

I'm not about to into another discussion on what ARIN AC does/did right or 
wrong now or before and I already said that I do not agree about ARIN AC 
being moved into policy making position rather then having them provide 
guidence on unclear operational issues that ARIN may have.

But it does not matter if its AC issue or if they are dealing with it or 
not, if this is something people want and ARIN is not willing to do it on 
its own and wants policy in place for it, then you should propose such 
a policy and I'll support you in that.

> > In my opinion adding in-addr to bulk-whois proposal is both not approriate
> > as whois data is a lot more complex and has rather specific privacy issues,
> > its unnecessory and it sounds bad as far as you wrote it (i.e. what you 
> > proposed - "arin whois inaddr aup"). 
> 
> I agree, WHOIS is more complex and has privacy issues.  Hence the IN-ADDR
> should be an easy issue to deal with.

That is why it should be separate issue from whois.
 
> I don't believe I used those words you are attributing to me.  Please
> correct or quote correctly....

"ARIN WHOIS/INADDR Acceptable Use Policy" - directly from your email below
 
> What I stated is that access to the whois  OR  inaddr carried with it the
> same level of restrictions and conditions.  This would be more protection
> for the IN-ADDR and continue to protect the whois data.

Why do we need protection for IN-ADDR? Has this ever been missused? How?
  
> > First I think we need to ask ARIN if they are willing to get all the 
> > inaddr data out on their ftp site on their own based on current polices 
> > and procedures (they do after all provide entire ASN list including all
> > those ASNs they inherited from Internic, so why is it so different for 
> > inaddr?). If they do not want to do it, then propose a simple policy:
> > "ARIN will provide public access to complete INADDR data for all ip 
> > blocks in its database for public download by ftp"
> 
> Well todate ARIN has refused to provide IN-ADDR lacking a policy.  I can
> dig up the email from ARIN staff issued last fall, if needed.

Dig up, in the mean time, lets wait for somebody from arin staff to answer 
on the list.

> Agreed they have the ASN data, the IN-ADDR seems easy as well since they
> have to gen the zone for their NS set anyway.

Exactly!

> Personally I believe that ARIN should have an AUP for this data.

Can you elaborate on why and explain the reasons?

> John Brown
> 
> > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: owner-ppml at arin.net [mailto:owner-ppml at arin.net] On 
> > > > Behalf Of william at elan.net
> > > > Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 11:44 PM
> > > > To: John M. Brown
> > > > Cc: ppml at arin.net
> > > > Subject: Re: [ppml] A proposal to modify proposal 2003-9 
> > > > (WHOIS and INADDR access)
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Why do you need policy for providing in-addr data as bulk? I 
> > > > think ARIN 
> > > > already provides this all publicly as it, see 
> > > > ftp://ftp.arin.net/pub/zones
> > > > 
> > > > Do you need something more then 
> > > > that?
> > > > 
> > > > On Mon, 9 Jun 2003, John M. Brown wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > 3. A policy for bulk WHOIS and or ARIN INADDR access will 
> > > > be published 
> > > > > on
> > > > >    ARIN website as follows:
> > > > > 
> > > > > "Access to the entire WHOIS or ARIN INADDR database or 
> > > > large portion 
> > > > > of
> > > > > it may be obtained by any organization or individual 
> > > > provided that this 
> > > > > organization or individual agrees in writing to ARIN WHOIS/INADDR
> > > > > Acceptable 
> > > > > Use Policy. WHOIS or ARIN INADDR data provided under bulk 
> > > > WHOIS access 
> > > > > will not include any information that is marked as private.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Access to WHOIS/INADDR data may be by way of:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Individual WHOIS/DNS queries
> > > > > 
> > > > > FTP or other type of download
> > > > > 
> > > > > Hard media distribution (such as CDROM)
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > -----
> > > > > 
> > > > > Given that ARIN now has policy  2002-1 Lame In-addr, 
> > > > providing access 
> > > > > to the in-addr view that ARIN has would be useful for the internet 
> > > > > operational and research community, and help reduce lame 
> > > > issues.  This 
> > > > > access would allow service providers access to the IN-ADDR tree and 
> > > > > allow them to self verify what deligations they are listed as 
> > > > > authoritative for.  It would allow the research community a better 
> > > > > source of data for research and other activities.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > respectfully,
> > > > > 
> > > > > john brown