[ppml] Re: Independent space from ARIN

Michael.Dillon at radianz.com Michael.Dillon at radianz.com
Tue Apr 22 10:49:57 EDT 2003

More stuff from the NANOG thread. I know there are a lot of emotional 
statements here and in the other messages, but if we look beyond these we 
see that there is some general agreement on what problems need to be 

Also Sprach jlewis at lewis.org
>On Sun, 13 Apr 2003, Jeff McAdams wrote:
>> Ignoring, for the moment, that absolute absurdity of that type of
>> procedure...you forget what I've now said twice...that ARIN said as
>> clarification after I got the first block that renumbering wasn't a
>> consideration, full stop.

>I don't see how that's at all absurd.

Wow...ok...there's nothing that I'm going to be able to say for you to
understand.  *shrug*  Have fun continuing to get screwed by ARIN then.

>> Either ARIN's policies are screwed up beyond even what I thought to
>> begin with, or their communications with customers/ISPs/whatever is
>> absolutely pitiful.  Most likely, both.

>ARIN's policies do change over time, which can be surprising and
>annoying (you get used to a policy or think you know their
>policy...time goes by, and then you find what you know is invalid).
>It's a pain, but it's life.

OK...then why hasn't *any* of the relevant documentation (which is
wrong, no matter which policy you're dealing with) changed?

>It's alot of work, but laughable?  Why?  You're talking to someone who
>simultaneously moved an ISP's physical network from one building to
>another (across town), changed backbone providers, multihomed, did BGP
>for the first time, and renumbered from 2 /20's of PA space (we weren't
>using much of the second /20 and with inefficiencies cleaned up, really
>only needed most of a /20) into a /20 of a reserved /19 of PI space in
>about a week (all at the same time including moving customer T1's)
>while the old landlord was threatening lock us out, and the old
>backbone provider threatening to shut us off!

At that point, you're already making changes...the numbering changes
aren't that big of a deal at that point.  Indeed...I find re-numbering
in the process of network redesigns/rebuilds actually makes both parts
of the process *easier*. (yes, I've done similar things)  So, really,
you're argument here falls flat.

>It took alot of planning, a week of very long days, and alot of
>customer hand holding, but it can be done.  But all that said, who said
>you should have to renumber inside of 3 months?

ARIN's policies (at least as stated on their web pages...but we've
already shown those to be fictional) indicate that the renumbering would
have to happen before an additional block would be allocated, and that
they only allocate blocks based on anticipated 3 month growth (which is
also fictional...they actually base it on *past* growth, not anticipated
future growth, based on what I was told after the last allocation,
again...may be the truth, may not be, flip a coin)

>Is there some reason you need to have 1 PI block big enough to handle
>renumbering out of all your PA blocks?  Why can't you renumber some of
>the PA space into PI space, return the no longer used PA space to P,
>and get more PI blocks from ARIN to continue the renumbering?

Suffice it to say, that would not have been practical in our case.
Additionally, based on what I've been told of ARIN's policies, they
wouldn't have granted the next block of PI space when we went back to
them for the next allocation.

>> There is no was for ARIN to get out of this one smelling like
>> roses...they screwed up...probably twice, depending on your opinions
>> about policies...but at least once in the lie about renumbering
>> considerations.

>I like to bash ARIN as much as the next member, but I just don't see it

They lied to me, full stop.  Additionally, depending on your beliefs of
what's practical for renumbering policies...they screwed me over there
too by not giving me enough space (whether one block or more than one, I
don't give a crap...but this going back after renumbering half the
network is absurd).

>Either I'm not getting some part of your story, or you've got some
>really weird ideas about PI space and renumbering.

Its called common sense, but we've already established that its lacking
at ARIN.

>>FWIW, the first request we made was for a /19, which would have been
>>the smallest single block that could have been allocated to us to
>>allow us to renumber into; and the second request was for an /18, with
>>the same reasoning.  We got /20's both times (with the second /20
>>being the second half of the /19 of the first /20).

>If you're really using a /18 of PA space,

At the time of the second allocation, no, we weren't using a /18, but,
cumulative, we were using more than a /19 efficiently.

And, actually...I mispoke...we didn't request a /18 on the second
request, we, again, requested a /19 (thinking back on it, I realized I
mis-remembered it)...because of not needing to renumber out of the first
allocation...we just, again, wanted to renumber out of the PA (what does
the "A" stand for, there, by the way?) space, with a /20+.  And, no, I'm
not going to renumber half my network then go back to ARIN again.
That's absurd to have to do that.

>and using it efficiently according to ARIN guidelines,

As I've said before, we, in the past, and currently, are using *ALL* of
our allocated blocks (both PA and PI) efficiently (except, of course,
for the recently allocated one which is being used for current

We're trying our darndest to "Do the Right Thing" by ARIN, and the
Internet Community as a whole, and be a good neighbor.  We're efficiently
utilizing the space we have, again, all of it, beyond the requirements
of ARIN, we're advertising in BGP the minimum number of routes possible
given the allocations (both PA and PI) that we have, and we're desiring
(for business reasons as well as altruistic) to renumber out of PA space
into fewer, but larger, PI blocks.  ARIN has been a stumbling block to
us accomplishing these things every step of the way.

ARIN has failed to accomplish everything that it was created to do.  Its
whole purpose for existence has basically not been served.

>I'd be really surprised if you filled out the application for space and
>said "here's how we're using a /18 worth of PA space, we'd like to
>renumber from it into PI space, and will do so over X months." and ARIN
>didn't allocate you a /18.  If you've already tried this and failed, it
>may just be a matter of how you're filling out the form.

Well...as someone else mentioned...apparently you can never fill out an
ARIN form without ever being asked for clarification on a different
form.  Why don't they just have you fill out the second form in the
first place?

Dealing with ARIN is a studying in dealing with inconsistency, reading
between the lines, discerning meaning from what's not said, a bit of
mind reading, and walking in shifting sands.

And some people wonder why most of the world dreads dealing with ARIN.
Jeff McAdams                            Email: jeffm at iglou.com
Head Network Administrator              Voice: (502) 966-3848
IgLou Internet Services                        (800) 436-4456

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