[ppml] ARIN Policy Proposal 2002-9

[John M. Brown]

Is it fair to ask providers across the globe to carry your
route?

The prime issue here is about routing table size.  Memory is
cheap, CPU is even fairly cheap today.  Yet there is a point
at which it is "costly" to lookup your route.  Even using 
some of the new Radix methods its still costly in the sense
of latency and other metrics.

There are 33,000 registered business in New Mexico (my home
state).  We are a small state.  

If we say that the average state has 15,000 businesses that 
should have a /24, that would create a routing table around
750,000 entries.

That doesn't scale well.  Memory requirements far exceed current
in production routing equipment.   Further route flap from all
of these prefix's could cause more BGP traffic than SPAM does. :)

Most small business don't even have 15 hosts, let alone 254 of them.

Bottom line is that the RIR's need to operate based on what works
well for the various users of the space.  Allocating /24's to every
business that comes along is not in the best interest of the
global internet.


john brown

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ppml at arin.net [mailto:owner-ppml at arin.net] On 
> Behalf Of beran at beranpeter.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 3:49 PM
> To: ppml at arin.net
> Cc: Mury
> Subject: Re: [ppml] ARIN Policy Proposal 2002-9
> 
> 
> Mury,
> BTW - No offense taken.
> 
> I think that everyone should be "raked over the coals every 
> time they ask for space". I do not advocate less criteria.. 
> as you mention. I even support more scrutiny.
> 
> The little guy is getting SCREWED right now by big business. 
> The little guy is the small and medium sized businesses that 
> have a legitimate need for /24 address space. We do NOT have 
> equal access to IP space like an ISP or large company does. 
> An ISP sometimes pays an initial registration fee for IP 
> number then a nominal fee per year... if at all for. Some ISP 
> do not pay anything for IP's they have. For that matter some 
> users like me pay or paid nothing to get the /24 and CONTINUE 
> to pay nothing. So... they are charging customers for a 
> product (IP address) they have or get for free. NO FAIR!
> 
> I'm fine with charging more for internet connectivity. I'm 
> fine with paying for a couple IP numbers. I'm not ok with 
> paying for something they get for essentially free. Take the 
> fee that many ISP want to charge per IP. $5 per month times 
> 255 = $1,275 per month x 12 months = $15,300 per year! Thats 
> a cost that any company that has a legitamate usage for a /20 
> space does not have to pay. Yes they pay registration (much 
> much less then this amount) then the nominal $30 per year 
> maintenance fee. Which is fair?
> 
> This issue and policy proposal is about equal access to IP 
> space for one of the most important users of the Internet. 
> Small and medium size businesses that have a legitimate need 
> for /24 address space.
> 
> Equal access does involve $$.
> IP space is not owned and is not a commodity that can be 
> bought and sold. It is to be used by companies that have a 
> legitimate usage for them. ARIN is the organization that 
> makes sure it's being used properly.  There is no reason they 
> cannot do the same for /24 space.
> 
> Small businesses are what drives the North American 
> economy... it is one of the most important segments of the 
> Internet community. This is what ARIN has been put in place 
> for... to support the Internet community at large.
> 
> I'm putting a stake in the ground and trying to look out for 
> the little guy who is getting screwed right now. Vote to PASS 
> this policy proposal,
> 
> Beran
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mury" <mury at goldengate.net>
> To: "Beran" <beran at beranpeter.com>
> Cc: "Alec H. Peterson" <ahp at hilander.com>; "Jim Fleming" 
> <JimFleming at ameritech.net>; <ppml at arin.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:44 PM
> Subject: RE: [ppml] ARIN Policy Proposal 2002-9
> 
> 
> >
> > Beran,
> >
> > I have to admit I pretty much disagree with everything you 
> just said.
> >
> > 1) As Alec said, ARIN should not base policies on the 
> billing policies of
> >    ISPs.
> > a) ISPs aren't exactly making money hand over foot.
> > b) There is still tremendous competition, so if an ISPs billing
> >    policies are out of wack they simply won't get customers.
> > c) It doesn't seem to me that you have thought through how ISPs
> >    need to market and sell products.  The typical user does not
> >    want to have weird mysterious bandwidth charges showing up.
> >    They won't buy what the don't understand.  Why do you think
> >    no one sells DSL or cable that way?
> > d) If an ISPs needs to make a certain amount of money to pay the
> >    bills, they will find a way to make up that money elsewhere
> >    if that is where they were deriving it from.  And whether
> >    you want to admit it or not, the fact remains that users with
> >    static/routed IPs use more resources than other customers.
> >
> > ISPs are hoarding IP space???!!!  Good lord!  ARIN rakes me 
> over the 
> > coals every time I ask for space.  I have to fit .252 
> networks in all 
> > over my network to properly utilize all my space until ARIN 
> graciously 
> > gives me the IPs I need.  I've lost customers because I haven't had 
> > enough IPs to help a customer.  I don't have one single IP 
> wasted out 
> > of our block.  I have an extremely difficult time believing 
> that other 
> > ISPs are being treated with less scrutiny, since I don't remember 
> > personally pissing anyone off at ARIN to make them treat me 
> different.  
> > Sounds like you have had some poor experiences with some 
> ISPs... but 
> > that is just speculation.
> >
> > > ARIN IS doing a good job. Great people, great service, and 
> > > responsive. ISP's on average have not been any of these.
> >
> > Hmmm, maybe my suspicions have been confirmed.
> >
> > Whether or not I think it's a good thing to hand out smaller blocks 
> > and with less criteria, I know that your reasons strike me as being 
> > completely off base.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Mury
> >
> > PS, sometimes emails come across the wrong way.  I'm not trying to 
> > insult you or start some sort of war, but after re-reading 
> it I know 
> > it could be interpreted that way.  I simply think you are off-base.
> >
> > On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Beran wrote:
> >
> > > Alec.
> > > I quote from the ARIN web site:
> > > "As a nonprofit organization with a bottom-up, community-based
> structure,
> > > our focus is completely on serving our members and the Internet
> community at
> > > large."
> > >
> > > Serving the members that operate ARIN is important but their goal 
> > > and
> ARIN's
> > > goal is to serve the Internet community at large.
> > > Your "technical and operational issues" are important but do NOT 
> > > include other aspects of serving the Internet community at large.
> > >
> > > Equal access to ip space is VERY important to the 
> Internet community 
> > > at large. This should be a TOP priority!
> > >
> > > It is clear now that we have had a number of years of 
> operation in 
> > > the current format to understand that IP space is still being 
> > > improperly utilized/horded/charged for etc. Why not allow /24 
> > > address space allocations? I see and have heard NO good 
> reasons not 
> > > to allow it. The same process
> and
> > > the same requirements for a /20 address space works well 
> now so why 
> > > not
> for
> > > /24.
> > > ARIN IS doing a good job. Great people, great service, and 
> > > responsive. ISP's on average have not been any of these. And to 
> > > charge EVERY month
> for
> > > EVERY ip used which was essentially free to obtain for anyone to 
> > > justify
> a
> > > couple years ago is terrible.
> > > Usage can be metered and is metered so the usage argument 
> per IP is 
> > > not
> a
> > > good one.
> > >
> > > Beran
> > >
> > > Beran Peter
> > > Beran at BeranPeter.com <mailto:Beran at BeranPeter.com> 617-803-3658
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-ppml at arin.net [mailto:owner-ppml at arin.net]On 
> Behalf Of Alec
> > > H. Peterson
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:59 PM
> > > To: Jim Fleming; ppml at arin.net
> > > Subject: Re: [ppml] ARIN Policy Proposal 2002-9
> > >
> > >
> > > --On Tuesday, October 1, 2002 12:53 -0500 Jim Fleming
> > > <JimFleming at ameritech.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Can you convert all that to dollars and sense ?
> > > >
> > > > As an example, if you determine that your needs are to 
> run a homeless
> > > > shelter, what will that cost ? and why should ISPs be 
> paying for that
> ?
> > > >
> > > > Also, what are the needs of all of the Directors and 
> their "staffers"
> as
> > > > they are called in D.C. ? Do you think the ICANN and 
> ARIN Directors
> > > > should each maintain an office with staff ? Would a 
> $2,000,000 dollar
> per
> > > > year budget per Director handle all their **needs** ?
> > > >
> > > > You seem to want to start with **needs** and then work to costs.
> > > > Can you do that ?
> > >
> > > Jim,
> > >
> > > I will be the first to admit that I do not have a head 
> for pricing as
> far
> > > as what any entity (and ISP, ARIN or anything else) needs 
> to charge to
> make
> > > ends meet.  I believe that the policy discussions should 
> focus on the
> > > technical and operational issues.  I see no need why 
> money needs to be a
> > > part of that discussion, it can happen separately once 
> the policy itself
> > > has been decided.
> > >
> > > ALec
> > >
> > > --
> > > Alec H. Peterson -- ahp at hilander.com
> > > Chief Technology Officer
> > > Catbird Networks, http://www.catbird.com
> > >
> >
> >
>