[ppml] ARIN Policy Proposal 2002-9

[Mury]

Beran,

I have to admit I pretty much disagree with everything you just said.

1) As Alec said, ARIN should not base policies on the billing policies of
   ISPs.
	a) ISPs aren't exactly making money hand over foot.  
	b) There is still tremendous competition, so if an ISPs billing
	   policies are out of wack they simply won't get customers.
	c) It doesn't seem to me that you have thought through how ISPs
	   need to market and sell products.  The typical user does not
	   want to have weird mysterious bandwidth charges showing up.
	   They won't buy what the don't understand.  Why do you think
	   no one sells DSL or cable that way?
	d) If an ISPs needs to make a certain amount of money to pay the 
	   bills, they will find a way to make up that money elsewhere 
	   if that is where they were deriving it from.  And whether
	   you want to admit it or not, the fact remains that users with
	   static/routed IPs use more resources than other customers.

ISPs are hoarding IP space???!!!  Good lord!  ARIN rakes me over the coals
every time I ask for space.  I have to fit .252 networks in all over my
network to properly utilize all my space until ARIN graciously gives me
the IPs I need.  I've lost customers because I haven't had enough IPs to
help a customer.  I don't have one single IP wasted out of our block.  I
have an extremely difficult time believing that other ISPs are being
treated with less scrutiny, since I don't remember personally pissing
anyone off at ARIN to make them treat me different.  Sounds like you have
had some poor experiences with some ISPs... but that is just speculation.

> ARIN IS doing a good job. Great people, great service, and responsive.
> ISP's on average have not been any of these.

Hmmm, maybe my suspicions have been confirmed. 

Whether or not I think it's a good thing to hand out smaller blocks and
with less criteria, I know that your reasons strike me as being completely
off base.

Regards,

Mury

PS, sometimes emails come across the wrong way.  I'm not trying to insult
you or start some sort of war, but after re-reading it I know it could be
interpreted that way.  I simply think you are off-base.

On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Beran wrote:

> Alec.
> I quote from the ARIN web site:
> "As a nonprofit organization with a bottom-up, community-based structure,
> our focus is completely on serving our members and the Internet community at
> large."
> 
> Serving the members that operate ARIN is important but their goal and ARIN's
> goal is to serve the Internet community at large.
> Your "technical and operational issues" are important but do NOT include
> other aspects of serving the Internet community at large.
> 
> Equal access to ip space is VERY important to the Internet community at
> large. This should be a TOP priority!
> 
> It is clear now that we have had a number of years of operation in the
> current format to understand that IP space is still being improperly
> utilized/horded/charged for etc.
> Why not allow /24 address space allocations?
> I see and have heard NO good reasons not to allow it. The same process and
> the same requirements for a /20 address space works well now so why not for
> /24.
> ARIN IS doing a good job. Great people, great service, and responsive.
> ISP's on average have not been any of these. And to charge EVERY month for
> EVERY ip used which was essentially free to obtain for anyone to justify a
> couple years ago is terrible.
> Usage can be metered and is metered so the usage argument per IP is not a
> good one.
> 
> Beran
> 
> Beran Peter
> Beran at BeranPeter.com <mailto:Beran at BeranPeter.com>
> 617-803-3658
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ppml at arin.net [mailto:owner-ppml at arin.net]On Behalf Of Alec
> H. Peterson
> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:59 PM
> To: Jim Fleming; ppml at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [ppml] ARIN Policy Proposal 2002-9
> 
> 
> --On Tuesday, October 1, 2002 12:53 -0500 Jim Fleming
> <JimFleming at ameritech.net> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Can you convert all that to dollars and sense ?
> >
> > As an example, if you determine that your needs are to run a homeless
> > shelter, what will that cost ? and why should ISPs be paying for that ?
> >
> > Also, what are the needs of all of the Directors and their "staffers" as
> > they are called in D.C. ? Do you think the ICANN and ARIN Directors
> > should each maintain an office with staff ? Would a $2,000,000 dollar per
> > year budget per Director handle all their **needs** ?
> >
> > You seem to want to start with **needs** and then work to costs.
> > Can you do that ?
> 
> Jim,
> 
> I will be the first to admit that I do not have a head for pricing as far
> as what any entity (and ISP, ARIN or anything else) needs to charge to make
> ends meet.  I believe that the policy discussions should focus on the
> technical and operational issues.  I see no need why money needs to be a
> part of that discussion, it can happen separately once the policy itself
> has been decided.
> 
> ALec
> 
> --
> Alec H. Peterson -- ahp at hilander.com
> Chief Technology Officer
> Catbird Networks, http://www.catbird.com
>