FW: [ppml] Last Call for Comment: Policy Proposal 2002-6

Jill Kulpinski Jill.Kulpinski at cw.com
Fri Nov 15 14:02:10 EST 2002

In light of the fact that I have been becoming more aware and informed about 
this issue and am attempting to do something about improving the environmnent
however I can and on behalf of whatever organization I may represent, I will take
any negative comments as constructive critcism so thanks.
So...joe-schmo wants to improve his relationship with the blacklisters and show that
he is actively trying to clean things up.  Hmmm...following the instructions on the blacklisting
sites to have things removed does not work.  What then?  Joe will not accept the fact that he is
just screwed and can not improve the internet environment on behalf of the address space he
administers.  Also, how does Joe know that he has contacted all the 'right' blacklisters?  People could
use anything they wanted to, or make their own.  Or are there considered 'main blacklists' that are
recognized by the internet community as standard resources?  
Joe agrees that option 1 is the way to go.  Reality, though, dictates otherwise for Joe and he wants to
know what he can do in the meantime that would be effective.
Joe would be happy to prove that address space is not being used for spamming and should not be listed, provided that 
there is reciprocated action and the space is removed.  It is very tough, though, because blacklisters don't list just the offenders, but as everyone knows, larger aggregates containing clean addresses as well as the dirty ones.

-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Rothschild [mailto:asr at latency.net]
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 8:43 AM
To: Jill Kulpinski
Cc: ppml at arin.net
Subject: Re: FW: [ppml] Last Call for Comment: Policy Proposal 2002-6

On 2002-11-14-21:54:08, Jill Kulpinski <Jill.Kulpinski at cw.com> wrote:
> still having mail issues...so my apologies if this is posted more than once.

Wouldn't happen to have anything to do with your mail server being
blacklisted by SPEWS due to Cable and Wireless employees spamming
folks promoting real estate/MLM scams, would it? ;) Or your clearly
documented inability to shut down big-revenue-generating spamming
customers?  But, I digress...

> how do i take action against people who don't respond?  i am very
> pro-active in making sure our resources are used appropriately, but
> how do you tell someone they are not allowed to post a listing, they
> need to change their listing, or also...  force people to not use
> these blacklists?

Wow, could you possibly stray any further off-topic for this list?

In short, you don't.

Sure, you could blackhole the IP's of the name servers used by these
blackhole lists.  But it'll hurt customer satisfaction metrics once
folks notice what you're doing, and the lack of sound technical
reasoning behind it.  At the risk of sounding sappy, you could even
describe the resulting customer churn as an "Exodus".

> no matter what we do...some joe-shmo out there could set up a site
> and put any address he wanted to on a list and market it to the
> internet world as a blacklist.  if someone actually trusts and uses
> this list...  that should be their problem.

Exactly.  Such is life.

> BUT i tell a Customer who has a complaint he or whomever
> he serves should not use the listing...and i get 'but everyone....even the major providers use it'.
> what can i do....for every list that i get some innocent person off of, who is to stop some other 
> person for putting mr. innocent on another list?
> and how am i ever supposed to be able to guarantee to a Customer that no one is blacklisting their space?
> it is not possible to provide this guarantee, so what is the solution...and both short term and long term 
> would be great.

This is very cut and dried.  You have two choices:

  1) Run an efficient abuse department.  When you receive complaints
     of spamming customers, act in accordance with your AUP,
     including ultimately disconnecting them in a timely fashion.

  2) Continue to do what you're doing now, and deal with the
     consequences of innocent customers being allocated blacklisted IP

Like it not, said blackholes are a fact of life.  When used properly,
they are invaluable tools in helping reduce the amount of e-mail
received from rogue sources.  Rather than try to blackhole the
blackholes, perhaps it's time to step back and give some thought as to
why you're in them to begin with.


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