[ppml] Last Call for Comment: Policy Proposal 2002-6

Joe Baptista baptista at dot-god.com
Fri Nov 15 09:56:59 EST 2002

The one thing I do see from this thread is a need for the RIR's to
disclose if address space has been used before.

Joe Baptista

Planet Communications & Computing Facility
a division of The dot.GOD Registry, Limited

On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Mury wrote:

> I'm not sure I should comment because I did not read all of the posts
> regarding this.  However, I'll take a chance at being flamed for repeating
> someone else or being off-topic.
> Didn't this start with someone not wanting used space, because used space
> can have legacy consequences?  Those consequences being black-listed IPs,
> existing servers outside the IP block still thinking they need to talk to
> those IPs for a service long gone, etc.
> It seems to me like it is very similiar to getting a recycled 1-800
> number.  It sucks.
> I really don't see how the RIRs can effectively revoke the IP space of
> spammers.  That is going to take a lot of effort and probably result in a
> lot of days sitting in court.  That's not to say that I wouldn't like to
> see it happen, but I don't think that is a viable answer.
> Why can't the RIR maintain a list of returned IP space?  Blacklisting
> services that are worth using could easily cross check their blacklisted
> IPs against that list.
> The RIRs should also recycle the IPs on a first in first out basis to
> minimize any legacy traffic going to those IPs.  It's not perfect, but
> statistically it makes sense.  Of course they could also advertise all
> unallocated IPs to themselves or an outside service to check for abnormal
> amounts of legacy traffic and not assign blocks that are being hit hard.
> It's hard for me to imagine that if IP space is returned and it is not
> recycled for a year or two that a blacklisting service couldn't find the
> resources to remove that IP space from their lists and for a very high
> percentage of the legacy traffic to have vanished.
> Anyone using a blacklisting service that can't keep something like that up
> to date can't possibly trust their accuracy anyway.  And in my experience
> most blacklisters are savvy enough to appreciate and utilize a list that
> the RIR's could easily maintain.
> Mury
> On Fri, 15 Nov 2002, Dr. Jeffrey Race wrote:
> > On Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:28:53 -0800, Jill Kulpinski wrote:
> > >This whole issue regarding blacklists seems to be growing each day and more
> > >rapidly in the past few months.  I would love to know what to tell Customers who
> > >are assigned space that was once used by some other Customer who got it
> > >blacklisted on one of the thousands of lists out there.  I can not control who
> > >creates a blacklist, nor who uses it to set up filters, so is there really any
> > >means of providing a Customer address space that will never be blacklisted?  No.
> > >But they want temporary fixes in the meantime which is an impractical solution.
> > >I would love to hear other people's thoughts on this but I realize I may be
> > >getting off of the topic a bit.
> >
> >
> > It is completely on topic for the reasons you state.
> >
> > In general,  announcement on Spam-L and NANAE that the ownership of IP address
> > space has been taken over by new non-spammer user will cause many or most of
> > the blocklists to remove the previously offending addresses.   However some
> > blocklist managers don't follow these groups assiduously, some blocklist
> > managers have a several-month waiting period, and some blocklist managers have
> > a policy NEVER to admit traffic from any once-polluted address space, possibly
> > because they have been lied to so many times.
> >
> > So there is NO universal retrospective solution.
> >
> > Therefore, and this is the simple point I have been trying to make here,
> > there remains only a prospective solution.    That is what you have to face,
> > and face now, because the use of blocklists is growing rapidly and possibly
> > exponentially.  It is the only defense we victims have against the present
> > irresponsible management of IP address space and domain names.
> >
> > The RIRs are responsible for the proper management, express and
> > implied, of the IP address space allocated to them.  Since recycling of
> > IP address space obviously will occur over the years, decades and
> > centuries, the RIRs have a duty to prevent pollution of the resources
> > they manage.  The pollution comes from spamming.   This means the RIRs
> > have to have a clear policy that IP address users must not spam, must
> > not allow spammers on their networks, and must have hair-trigger management
> > systems in place to identify incipient spammers and penalize them (because
> > blocklist additions can occur in days).  (All this is eminently doable now
> > by presently existing technical measures, and many ISPs do indeed use such
> > measures.)  Any user who violates this rule must have his IP address space
> > withdrawn. That is the only sanction that anyone will pay attention to.
> >
> > In short, the RIRs have to take on a role to act, probably agggressively
> > and violently, against abuse of the resources they manage, by the people
> > to whom they entrust these resources.   If you list members are not willing
> > to rise up and force them to prevent spammers from pissing in the pool,
> > then don't complain about how the water tastes when you swim in it.  It
> > is the result of your own (in)action.
> >
> > Jeffrey Race
> >

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