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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Joseph,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I am not familiar with the “invisible hand theory” </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> We are a small ISP. We have IPv6 in production because several of our large customers had, and still have, non-negotiable mandates to be live on IPv6 as of June 15<sup>th</sup>, 2011. We did not get IPv6 because it was a luxury for us but a business necessity. So I can’t share your sentiment that small ISP’s don’t need IPv6. And yes, there is no profit in IPv6 as far as we are concerned. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:maroon'>A. Michael Salim<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:navy'>VP and Chief Technology Officer,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:navy'>American Data Technology, Inc.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:navy'>PO Box 12892<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:navy'>Research Triangle Park, NC 27709, USA<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:navy'>P: (919)544-4101 x101<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:navy'>F: (919)544-5345<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:navy'>E: <a href="mailto:msalim@localweb.com">msalim@localweb.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:navy'>W: <a href="http://www.localweb.com/">http://www.localweb.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></p><p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:#C00000'>PRIVACY NOTIFICATION: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. 2510-2521, and is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). It may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. Unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.<o:p></o:p></span></i></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:24.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green'>P </span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:green'>Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to. </span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:green'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Joseph Conti<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 14, 2012 5:32 PM<br><b>To:</b> Jesse D. Geddis<br><b>Cc:</b> arin-discuss@arin.net<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [arin-discuss] Status of realigning the IPv6 fee structure?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>If you apply the "invisible hand" theory here, then technically no ISP (or at least small one) should be purchasing any IPv6 at all. IPv6 in it's current state and fee structure doesn't generate any profit for ISP's. The cost of it (by ARIN) should be little to none, until such a time that the equilibrium you mention is possible.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Being a small ISP, if we had the choice of taking a /36 instead of a /32 and able to pay the same as we do in our x-small category we would have. In-fact, we even asked for a smaller allocation in the first place, but were denied (policy at the time).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Fact of the matter remains, if an ORG is in an x-small category for IPv4, there should be an equivalent for IPv6 as right now it doubles the annual fee and doesn't generate any revenue in it's current state.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>What we are essentially doing now, is paying double for an allocation that we will likely never outgrow. For larger ISP's this may be different.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Joseph Conti</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Media-Hosts Inc.</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 2012-03-14, at 5:14 PM, Jesse D. Geddis wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>There are two layers of fees<br><br>1. Those charged by ARIN to the carriers.<br>2. Those charged by the carriers to their customers.<br><br>Layer 1 is not for profit as ARIN is, as I said, a steward. Saying ARIN is a geographic monopoly misappropriates the term since it is not a for profit organisation. ARIN's sole purpose is to delegate those resources in a needs baser manner to other organisations.<br><br>Layer 2 is generally for profit. Here is where supply and demand comes into play for address space. If you have limited ipv4 address space you will charge your customer more. If you charge too much they will go elsewhere until an equilibrium is found in the price. This is how the 'invisible hand' operates.<br><br><br>Jesse Geddis<br>LA Broadband LLC<br>ASN 16602<br><br>On Mar 14, 2012, at 2:06 PM, "David Conrad" <<a href="mailto:david@cloudflare.com">david@cloudflare.com</a>> wrote:<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>On Mar 14, 2012, at 2:57 PM, Jesse D. Geddis wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>ARIN doesn't operate as a free enterprise and this is not done for profit. ARIN is the steward, administrator, of the address space. The fees are to pay for administration and advocacy. The fees charged in the marketplace for that address space is dictated by the free market as it should be. Not by ARIN. <o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>I'm not understanding what you're saying. ARIN is a geographic monopoly. The fees are not dictated by a free market. They are dictated by ARIN.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal>-drc<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>ARIN-Discuss<br>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>).<br>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br>Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>