<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>We had a /24 from both. Neither provider would SWIP those blocks and show<br>that we were assigned them. Both required the other provider to provide, in<br>writing, authorization for us to announce the other provider's block.<br>Neither provider would give a written authorization (although both required<br>one). We went round and round and round. The damage done to my business was<br>not insignificant.<br><br></div></blockquote>If you have a provider in the ARIN region that assigns you a block and refuses</div><div>to SWIP it or put it in their RWHOIS server, you should contact ARIN. Assuming</div><div>they are using ARIN issued space, the policy under which they received that</div><div>space clearly states that they are required to register it accordingly. If they</div><div>refuse, then, they have violated their RSA.</div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><br></font></div><div>I know this will spark a round of "they can't\shouldn't\don't do that"<br>emails from this list.... but they can and do. I certainly sympathize with<br>Mr. Carpenter. I was forced to go buy an internet pipe I didn't need for a<br>year just to get a /23 from a third provider. I ended up renumbering my<br>network three times in the span of six months. This cost us thousands of<br>dollars in time and lost customers. <br><br></div></blockquote>I know this happens, but, until someone hands ARIN the smoking gun, there's</div><div>little that can be done about it. Hence, I'm saying "Talk to ARIN about it" rather</div><div>than "Then can't/shouldn't do that" (which is obvious).</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>And each time I tried to explain my situation to someone at ARIN the<br>response was the same: "Well, that's the policy. We can't help you. Talk to<br>your upstream provider."<br><br></div></blockquote>If you explained to ARIN that they were refusing to SWIP the space to you,</div><div>ARIN should have been able to do something about that. Feel free to</div><div>contact me off list or use the "Fraud Reporting" link on the ARIN web site</div><div>to try and get something done.</div><div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>Michael Young<br>Generic Conferencing LLC<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a href="mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net">arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net</a> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net]<br>On Behalf Of Ryan Duda<br>Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 5:48 PM<br>To: Randy Carpenter<br>Cc: <a href="mailto:arin-discuss@arin.net">arin-discuss@arin.net</a><br>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] IPv4 allocation conundrum<br><br>Randy,<br><br>This is one road..<br><br>1) Obtain an ASN, peer with Provider A and Provider B.<br>2) When the justification is there request an additional /24 from either <br>provider A or provider B.<br>3) Have efficient utilization of the 2 /24's.<br>4) Request a /22 from ARIN<br><br><br>Ryan Duda<br><a href="http://123.net">123.net</a><br>24275 Northwestern Hwy.<br>Southfield, MI 48075<br>Direct: 586.566.0564<br>Fax: 586.620.8005<br>NOC: 866.460.3503<br>Email: rpd@123.net<br><br><br><br>Randy Carpenter wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">They have a /24, but the ARIN policy states that if you need a /19, you<br></blockquote>already have to have 50% of that size already fully in use. Our specific<br>situation is that the ISP was forced to use private IPs for purposes that<br>should have been public to begin with.<br><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">-Randy<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">--<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">| Randy Carpenter<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">| V.P., IT Services<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">| First Network Group, Inc.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">| Wapakoneta, OH<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">| (419)739-9240, x1<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">--<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">----- "Tony Hain" <alh-ietf@tndh.net> wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">IANAL ... but they already have public address space assigned by<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">their<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">provider. That may only be a /32, but that is still public, and it is<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">assigned by their provider. It would likely help make the case if it<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">were a<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">static assignment, but dhcp is an assignment mechanism. YMMV<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Tony<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">-----Original Message-----<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">From: arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">bounces@arin.net] On Behalf Of Randy Carpenter<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 7:56 PM<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">To: arin-discuss@arin.net<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Subject: [arin-discuss] IPv4 allocation conundrum<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I am working with a new customer who is in a bit of a pickle...<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">They are an ISP and VoIP provider whose upstream provider wouldn't<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">(or<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">couldn't) give them many addresses.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">They resorted to using NATed private IPs for most of their network,<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">which is causing problems for their end user customers.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Now that we are working with them, I am trying to find a solution<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">to<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">get them public IPs. They are also soon to be multi-homed (They have<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">2<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">connections, but no BGP yet). As an ISP, it would be best for them<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">to<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">have PI space.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The issue is that one of the requirements for getting PI space from<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">ARIN is that you are already using Public space that was assigned<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">to<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">you from an upstream provider. I spoke with someone from ARIN who<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">says<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">there is no way around this. The need around a /19 of space, and I<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">cannot find any way to get it for them. The upstream providers<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">refuse<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">to give them any.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">What can be done about this? Would would there be a requirement of<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">already using someone else's IP space to get your own? That seems<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">like<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">a complete waste of time, effort, money, and IPs!<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">-Randy<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">--<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">| Randy Carpenter<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">| V.P., IT Services<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">| First Network Group, Inc.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">| RHCE<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">| (419)739-9240, x1<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">--<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">ARIN-Discuss<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss@arin.net).<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Please contact info@arin.net if you experience any issues.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">ARIN-Discuss<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss@arin.net).<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Please contact info@arin.net if you experience any issues.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br>ARIN-Discuss<br>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss@arin.net).<br>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss<br>Please contact info@arin.net if you experience any issues.<br>No virus found in this incoming message.<br>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <br>Version: 9.0.801 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2818 - Release Date: 04/18/10<br>13:31:00<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>ARIN-Discuss<br>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss@arin.net).<br>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss<br>Please contact info@arin.net if you experience any issues.<br></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>