<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On Feb 9, 2010, at 2:23 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>Owen DeLong wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">On Feb 8, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Keith W. Hare wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">"...it doesn't cost ARIN anything...."<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Keith, I don't mean to single you out because Owen said exactly<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">the same kind of thing, as did others, but I am taking this<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">opportunity to mention that ARIN is NOT a profit-making entity,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">they CANNOT take a financial loss, there are no stockholders<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">to deny dividends to, no owners.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">A fee waiver is a COST the same as paying for the electric<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">bill for the WHOIS servers, and a lease on the<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">building ARIN is in, and the cost of the chairs in that building<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">that the ARIN staff's butts are sitting on.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">A fee waiver is only a COST if someone takes advantage of said<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">fee waiver. The portion of Keith's sentence (and mine, IIRC) that<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">you left off was "If nobody uses it, then..." as in<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">"If nobody uses it, it doesn't cost ARIN anything".<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Yes, ARIN is us. What costs ARIN costs us. Agreed.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">ALL MEMBERS OF ARIN that pay ANYTHING to ARIN - even if it's<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">nothing more than a nominal $100 a year fee - are paying for those<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">costs.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">And the theory behind this proposal is to increase the number of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">participants that would be paying ARIN $100 on a continuing annual<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">basis at the equivalent cost of 12.5 years of service.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The CORRECT SENTENCE is NOT "cost ARIN anything"<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The CORRECT SENTENCE is "cost YOU AND ME AND THE REST OF US anything"<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Respectfully, I disagree. While ARIN is funded entirely by its<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">resource holders (note: resource holders != members although<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">there is significant overlap). You can be an ARIN member without<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">resources and you can be a resource holder without being a member.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Anyway, ARIN is funded by its resource holders, but, from a liability<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">perspective, it is an independent entity. If ARIN absorbs too many<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">costs and does not collect sufficient fees from its resource holders,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the resource holders do not become liable for ARIN's debts. ARIN<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">becomes insolvent.<br></blockquote><br>A non-profit like ARIN would have to be extraordinarily<br>mis-managed to become insolvent like this. In fact it would literally<br>take criminal mismanagement. To do it would mean ARIN would have<br>to run at an enormous budget deficit for decades. ARIN would<br>quite literally have to become a government agency to manage this.<br><br></div></blockquote>Ted,</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>You're going deep down a rat hole here. My point was that</div><div>the finances are more indirect than the governance.</div><div>To be clear, I like the RIR system, I think domain registration</div><div> _IS_ a mess, and I do not support the idea of "privitization"</div><div>of address policy. (I don't think DNS is so much a mess as</div><div>domain registration, which is what I think you were referring to)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><br></font><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I think sometimes people get the feeling that there's this<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">mythical pot of money at ARIN that has no connection to their<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">wallets, I will remind everyone here that ARIN's expenses are<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">OUR expenses.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Sure, just like an ISP's expenses are passed along to its customers.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">ARIN = US from a policy perspective. From a funding perspective, it's<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">a bit more indirect.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The question we need to be asking is will spending the money on<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">a fee waiver get more flies to the IPv6 pot than spending the money<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">on something else like outreach or education, or another Team ARIN<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">comic? ;-)<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Well, the answer is that if it doesn't, then, we didn't spend the money.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">If it attracts 5 flies, then, it only costs $6,250. If it attracts 10 flies, then,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">it costs $12,500 in uncollected fees. However, most of those<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">organizations would not be paying anything currently and still receiving<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">services from ARIN for their IPv4 and ASN resources. So, the usual<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">net is that we pay out $1,250 per fly attracted and receive $100/year<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">from each attracted fly for a likely long time. We also gain the ability<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">to reclaim said fly's space if they stop paying $100/year, which, I would<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">argue is an even greater value proposition.<br></blockquote><br>In my humble opinion Owen, it is exactly this kind of financial<br>speculation/discussion that was missing from your original suggestion,<br>which is why this discussion went down the "is it Moral" discussion<br>path.<br><br></div></blockquote>I'm pretty sure that the board and FINCOM, specifically, have a pretty</div><div>good understanding of this. I do take your point that I should have</div><div>included such information in my earlier posts on this subject.</div><div>I made the mistake of thinking it was self-evident.</div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><br></font>suggestion, not policy<br><br></div></blockquote>Yes... In spite of my efforts to clarify this with others, I do keep tripping</div><div>over that myself.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><blockquote type="cite">but, I already signed the LRSA, already justified my existing<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">space, and, already qualified, paid for, and received an IPv6 /48 which<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">is actively routed and used. IOW, I'm not looking for a freebie, I'm<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">looking to address a situation which I regard as detrimental to ARIN<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">as an organization... The vast number of legacy holders who have<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">not yet signed the LRSA and for whom we cannot account for the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">status of their resources.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><br>I wonder if they even know they are legacy holders?<br><br></div></blockquote>I'm pretty sure that most of the reachable legacy holders are aware that</div><div>they are legacy holders. As to the legacy resources with unreachable</div><div>contacts, that's going to be an interesting question which I am hoping</div><div>that some recent policies (specifically section 12 or the NRPM and the</div><div>recent whois POC cleanup efforts).</div><div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>Ted<br><br><blockquote type="cite">Owen<br></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>