<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On Jul 22, 2009, at 1:06 PM, Steve Wagner wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>As a note it's not just the /8's. I am in Idaho. The State of Idaho has a Class B 164.165.0.0 All State government activities sit behind two different firewalls. <br><br>Micron technology 137.201.0.0. Sits behind firewalls<br><br>And so forth into perpetuity it seems<br><br>In this regard by reclaiming this address space that companies have, particularly when the coropration sits behind NAT firewalls is unjustified. The ones I listed above use Private address space behind the firewall i.e. 10.X.X.X etc. So why then would a company entity that does this need to retain their public Class A, B, C etc. There is no technical or administrative justification I can see. <br><br>Nevertheless, there was a comment about pre ARIN and Contract Law. Unfortunatley this may play the larger role over common sense. <br><br>While this is not the ultimate solution, it certainly can stem the tide for many years. <br><br>It would be an interesting study to examine the allocated IP address space by entity and determine how many of these organizations sit behind a NAT firewall, and only use a small portion of their allocation.<br><br></div></blockquote>Reclamation has been repeatedly studied, and, in general, the conclusion matches the following excerpt from a Cisco Journal article:</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://www.cisco.com/web/about/ac123/ac147/archived_issues/ipj_8-3/ipv4.html">http://www.cisco.com/web/about/ac123/ac147/archived_issues/ipj_8-3/ipv4.html</a></div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; "><span class="contentheaderalt" style="font-size: 14px; color: rgb(51, 102, 102); text-decoration: none; font-weight: bold; ">Reclaiming Allocations</span><br>Another debate occasionally resurfaces about reclaiming some of the early allocations to further extend the lifetime of IPv4. Hopefully this article has shown that the ROI for that approach is going to be extremely low. Discussions around the Internet community show there is an expectation that it will take several years of substantive negotiation (in multiple court systems around the globe) to retrieve any /8s. Then following that effort and expense, the likelihood of even getting back more than a few /8 blocks is very low. Following the allocation growth trend, after several years of litigation the result is likely to be just a few months of additional resource added to the pool—and possibly not even a whole month. All this assumes IANA does not completely run out before getting any back, because running out would result in pentup demand that could immediately exhaust any returns.</span></blockquote><br></div><div><br></div><div>If you can come up with credible figures indicating that there are at least 28 /8s worth of reclaimable space out there, then, reclamation efforts might be more interesting, but, I tend to doubt that is the case. If you can't reclaim at least 14 /8s, you don't even buy an additional year.</div><div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><br>Regards,<br>Steve Wagner<br>Vice President of Operations <br>Syringa Networks, LLC<br>3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100<br>Boise, ID 83705<br>Office: 208.229.6104<br>Main: 208.229.6100<br>Emergency: 1.800.454.7214<br>Fax: 208.229.6110<br>Email: <a href="mailto:Stwagner@syringanetworks.net">Stwagner@syringanetworks.net</a><br>Web: <a href="http://www.syringanetworks.net">www.syringanetworks.net</a><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>"Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network" <br><br>Privilege and Confidentiality Notice<br>The information in this message is intended for the named recipients only. It may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure. 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Thank you.<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net [<a href="mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net">mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net</a>] On Behalf Of John Osmon<br>Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 1:43 PM<br>To: <a href="mailto:arin-discuss@arin.net">arin-discuss@arin.net</a><br>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Good Stewardship by example, I'd like to RETURN a /20<br><br>On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 01:32:19PM -0400, Joe Maimon wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">John Osmon wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">We're aren't going to save the IPv4 world by returning space, but<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">we *will* make it easier on soe folks that are coming to the table<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">(relatively) late.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Hate to be a downer, but not at the current burn rate.<br></blockquote><br>Actually, I agree -- but don't tell the folks that think getting <br>a couple of /8s back from HP, Apple, and the DOD is going to significant<br>difference in the timing of IPv4 exhaustion. :-)<br><br>I still think that anything you aren't using should go back to the<br>pool that allows new comers a chance to participate in<br>commerce/communication. I don't, however, think that a slew of <br>/20s (or /8s) are going to make a big impact.<br>_______________________________________________<br>ARIN-Discuss<br>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>).<br>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br><a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br>Please contact info@arin.net if you experience any issues.<br>_______________________________________________<br>ARIN-Discuss<br>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss@arin.net).<br>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss<br>Please contact info@arin.net if you experience any issues.<br></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>