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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:windowtext'> arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Phillip Clark<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, July 22, 2009
4:59 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> dsong@nexgit.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> arin-discuss@arin.net<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [arin-discuss]
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David Song wrote: </span></font></p>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Unsubscribe </span></font></pre><pre><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From: <a
href="mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net">arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net</a> [<a
href="mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net">mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net</a>]</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>On Behalf Of rob servis</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:29 AM</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>To: <a
href="mailto:arin-discuss@arin.net">arin-discuss@arin.net</a></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN-discuss Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> On Tue, 21 Jul 2009, Carl Peterson wrote:</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> > I was just going to post the same thing but it is only fair that we</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> > develop a consensus as to when it is ok to blacklist a block for</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>unfair</span></font></pre><pre><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> > use of ip space. Once we have a quorum of sorts, like minded </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>admins</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>and</span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> > companies should act as a group.</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> > As a basic rule I would start by saying that if a company or </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>group</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>is</span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> > holding a large block of ipv4 which they know they will never </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>use,</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>the</span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> > part that will never be used should be returned. The ip space </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>that</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>they</span></font></pre><pre><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> > are holding only has value because the rest of us route to it.</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>How do you propose to know the difference between space which is </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>unused, and space which is in use on networks which are not directly </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>routed to the portions of the Internet that you can see?</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Presuming you cannot see the use that people are putting space to, how </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>would your black-holing them penalize them?</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Once you and your compatriots black-hole them, presuming they comply </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>with your desires and return the space, and it gets doled out to </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>someone else, how do you propose to get the space un-black-holed, so </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>you don't just penalize the subsequent recipient?</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I see a heck of a lot more complaints from people who've recently </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>received new space that they can't get people to stop black-holing, </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>than I see complaints from people unable to get space.</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> -Bill</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre><pre><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I concur --- this could end up a mess if routes started getting blackholed.</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Although a controlled use of a coordinated facility like the BOGON system</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>could be okay if it is BGP based.</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>There is a presumption here that the 'unused' space is somehow contiguous</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>and therefore even possible to return in any meaningful size chunks.</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Telcos and NPA/NXX assignments had a similar problem to solve. CLECs were</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>given entire exchanges (10,000 blocks of numbers) until NANPA realized this</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>was not going to be sustainable with the number of new CLECs asking for</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>numbers. They then cut assignments back to 1,000 blocks of numbers and in</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>some cases asked CLECs to give back 9,000 phone numbers. By then the CLECs</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>had given out numbers throughout the entire 10,000 number range (everyone</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>wants 1111 or 2222). It caused some customer service issues and definitely</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>a lot of time and energy to accomplish that relinquishment.</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Returning IPs from these big blocks may be just as problematic ... a /22</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>here, a /24 there. This could be a mess.</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Rob Servis</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>RASER, Inc.</span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font></pre><pre><font
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