Why should I spend the time trying to set up IPV6 servers when the ISPs don't care?<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Joel Jaeggli <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:joelja@bogus.com">joelja@bogus.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">You need to find a new sales rep.<br>
<br>
as2828 will sell you v6 transit. they have v6 customers, prefixs in the<br>
routing table, etc.<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
joel<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
Kelvin Williams wrote:<br>
> I have several uplinks to XO. And they have stated they have no IPv6<br>
> plans to us.<br>
><br>
> Kelvin Williams<br>
> Altus Communications Group, Inc.<br>
> Office Direct: 678.369.5968<br>
> Office Main: 678.369.5970<br>
> Fax: 866.895.8557<br>
> Mobile: 678.852.4173<br>
><br>
> Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed<br>
><br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> *From*: John Brown<br>
> *Date*: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:43:46 -0600<br>
> *To*: Tony Valenti<<a href="mailto:tony.valenti@powerdnn.com">tony.valenti@powerdnn.com</a>><br>
> *Subject*: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.<br>
><br>
> Who is that “upstream”???<br>
><br>
> Change providers ??<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On 7/21/09 8:42 PM, "Tony Valenti" <<a href="mailto:tony.valenti@powerdnn.com">tony.valenti@powerdnn.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> I'm in the same boat as one of the earlier readers mentioned.<br>
> I think a big mistake that ARIN is making is that ARIN incorrectly<br>
> assumes that we have something to do with making IPV6 a reality and<br>
> managing IPV4 address space.<br>
><br>
> Just recently I called one of our upstream providers (again) and<br>
> asked them when we would be able to use IPV6 addresses. After being<br>
> escalated all the way to to their Level 4 engineers, i was told that<br>
> they have no plans to implement IPV6 which means that if I put any<br>
> content on an IPV6 address, I can expect at a minimum, 25% of the US<br>
> won't have access to it.<br>
><br>
> So, assuming that the upstream providers like ours just simply don't<br>
> care, and in a few years there is a black market for IPV4 address<br>
> space because the internet is officially out, what will you do? As<br>
> a webhosting company, we have no choice but to pay whatever the<br>
> black market price for IPs is or go out of business/quit accepting<br>
> customers.<br>
><br>
> If I sound unhappy, it is because I am. ARIN continually emphasizes<br>
> the problem of depleting IPV4 but never offers or enforces anything<br>
> to fix the problem - they just make the current process harder.<br>
> ARIN is a doomsday prophet powerless to change the fate that we all<br>
> will endure.<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:26 PM, John Brown <<a href="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com">john@citylinkfiber.com</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
> I’ll ask the age old question again.<br>
><br>
> What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything?<br>
> If Apple got the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different<br>
> then, what gives ARIN the ability to enforce rules today.<br>
><br>
> Its contracts law.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <<a href="mailto:chris@uplogon.com">chris@uplogon.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> I would agree. Us small guys don't want to get to a point<br>
> where the big<br>
> guys are holding available IP address space over our heads<br>
> for a fee.<br>
> Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with<br>
> every small ISP<br>
> that comes along asking for address space.<br>
><br>
> We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP<br>
> space and also<br>
> requesting additional IP space. We were successful on both<br>
> attempts<br>
> because we could prove we needed the space. We also have an<br>
> IPv6 block<br>
> and already have it implemented on our routers. But at this<br>
> time, the<br>
> only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us<br>
> running pure<br>
> IPv6 for a long time to come.<br>
><br>
> ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large,<br>
> mostly unused<br>
> blocks of IP address space. A working group would be a good<br>
> start, or<br>
> maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from<br>
> each of these<br>
> companies. ARIN has the right to poll current block holders<br>
> of address<br>
> space on justification, why can't they do the same on these<br>
> large<br>
> blocks? If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or more<br>
> of their<br>
> block, then they can keep it and we move on. If not, then<br>
> they should<br>
> break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.<br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Chris Gotstein<br>
> Sr Network Engineer<br>
> UP Logon/Computer Connection UP<br>
> 500 N Stephenson Ave<br>
> Iron Mountain, MI 49801<br>
> Phone: 906-774-4847<br>
> Fax: 906-774-0335<br>
> <a href="mailto:chris@uplogon.com">chris@uplogon.com</a><br>
><br>
> Kelvin Williams wrote:<br>
> > Whoa, whoa, whoa.<br>
> ><br>
> > I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion of<br>
> IPv4. Our Broadband division services residential and SMB<br>
> DOCSIS and DSL subscribers.<br>
> ><br>
> > In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy subscribers<br>
> running Linux or current versions of Windows that support<br>
> IPv6, and the majority of web destinations were running IPv6.<br>
> ><br>
> > I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT<br>
> can cause problems for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs,<br>
> etc) in use today.<br>
> ><br>
> > So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are<br>
> protecting what blocks we manage from excess waste and<br>
> paying for every block, will now be at the mercy of these /8<br>
> holders who may be utilizing a tiny portion of the blocks<br>
> they are assigned when the "transfer market" comes into play.<br>
> ><br>
> > Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per IPv4<br>
> address because they can go for that.<br>
> ><br>
> > I think instead of talking on these lists that there should<br>
> be a steering group developed to address the real issues.<br>
> Forcing Apple, HP and the DoD to implement IPv6 NOW freeing<br>
> up those blocks. If they can't, they need to pay. In my<br>
> opinion, especially when looking at the DoD most of their<br>
> networks aren't accessed by the general public, so they can<br>
> transition versus the ISPs of the world dealing with users<br>
> still running Windows 98.<br>
> ><br>
> > Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks to<br>
> the responsible little guy with the aforementioned issues<br>
> without the establishment of a transfer market, and work to<br>
> create a series of large bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6 gateways.<br>
> ><br>
> > (All of the above was written after too many beers at the<br>
> local brew pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made<br>
> sense to us)<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Kw<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Kelvin Williams<br>
> > Altus Communications Group, Inc.<br>
> > Office Direct: 678.369.5968<br>
> > Office Main: 678.369.5970<br>
> > Fax: 866.895.8557<br>
> > Mobile: 678.852.4173<br>
> ><br>
> > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > -----Original Message-----<br>
> > From: Ted Mittelstaedt <<a href="mailto:tedm@ipinc.net">tedm@ipinc.net</a>><br>
> ><br>
> > Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01<br>
> > To: John Brown<<a href="mailto:john@citylinkfiber.com">john@citylinkfiber.com</a>><br>
> > Cc: ARIN Discussion List<<a href="mailto:arin-discuss@arin.net">arin-discuss@arin.net</a>><br>
> > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4<br>
> accountability.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely<br>
> liking to have<br>
> > some), then a transfer market will<br>
> > exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will<br>
> suddenly<br>
> > have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple<br>
> continue to sit<br>
> > on them, they lose that money. It's no different than<br>
> charging them<br>
> > a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee. Either<br>
> way,<br>
> > they lose money. The only difference is who gets the money<br>
> they lose.<br>
> ><br>
> > Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market<br>
> never forms<br>
> > and that block of numbers never gains value. In which case<br>
> nobody will<br>
> > be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.<br>
> ><br>
> > Either way, it works the same.<br>
> ><br>
> > Ted<br>
> ><br>
> > John Brown wrote:<br>
> >> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they<br>
> have to assess a<br>
> >> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??<br>
> >><br>
> >> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's there<br>
> was no fee as<br>
> >> part of the "contract".<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >>> -----Original Message-----<br>
> >>> From: Steve Wagner [mailto:<a href="mailto:stwagner@syringanetworks.net">stwagner@syringanetworks.net</a>]<br>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM<br>
> >>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon<br>
> >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List<br>
> >>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4<br>
> accountability.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> If either Apple or HP corporate network sits behind a NAT<br>
> >>> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak about,<br>
> >>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type of<br>
> >>> entities for the address space they use, may result in them<br>
> >>> returning this address space to the allocation pool. This<br>
> >>> would be true for any other end user entity as well that uses<br>
> >>> a NAT type firewall<br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Regards,<br>
> >>> Steve Wagner<br>
> >>> Vice President of Operations<br>
> >>> Syringa Networks, LLC<br>
> >>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100<br>
> >>> Boise, ID 83705<br>
> >>> Office: 208.229.6104<br>
> >>> Main: 208.229.6100<br>
> >>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214<br>
> >>> Fax: 208.229.6110<br>
> >>> Email: <a href="mailto:Stwagner@syringanetworks.net">Stwagner@syringanetworks.net</a><br>
> >>> Web: <a href="http://www.syringanetworks.net" target="_blank">www.syringanetworks.net</a><br>
> <<a href="http://www.syringanetworks.net" target="_blank">http://www.syringanetworks.net</a>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Privilege and Confidentiality Notice<br>
> >>> The information in this message is intended for the named<br>
> >>> recipients only. It may contain information that is<br>
> >>> privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from<br>
> >>> disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, you are<br>
> >>> hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution,<br>
> >>> or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of<br>
> >>> this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received<br>
> >>> this e-mail in error, do not print it or disseminate it or<br>
> >>> its contents. In such event, please notify the sender by<br>
> >>> return e-mail and delete the e-mail file immediately<br>
> >>> thereafter. Thank you.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> -----Original Message-----<br>
> >>> From: <a href="mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net">arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net</a><br>
> >>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net">arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net</a>] On Behalf Of John<br>
> Brown<br>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM<br>
> >>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon<br>
> >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List<br>
> >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4<br>
> accountability.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of managing<br>
> >>> the actual<br>
> >>> usage ratios. Lots of US service providers have space<br>
> allocated or<br>
> >>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers<br>
> don't exist any<br>
> >>> more.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space is<br>
> >>> higher than the<br>
> >>> cost of them just getting new space. So it doesn't<br>
> happen. I could<br>
> >>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting a<br>
> public spot<br>
> >>> light on those providers. :|<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> I believe that the early end user entities that got gobs of<br>
> >>> space should<br>
> >>> return the space they aren't using.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???<br>
> >>> Does HP really need a /8 ??<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP<br>
> addresses ??<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get space, I<br>
> >>> don't know.<br>
> >>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a<br>
> broad brush.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people doing<br>
> >>> good work<br>
> >>> under the guidelines they have.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation<br>
> >>> request, I'm sure<br>
> >>> it can be resolved.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to<br>
> privately work<br>
> >>> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes<br>
> >>> muster and what<br>
> >>> may need to be done to help it float.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----<br>
> >>>> From: <a href="mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net">arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net</a><br>
> >>>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net">arin-discuss-bounces@arin.net</a>] On Behalf Of Mike<br>
> Horwath<br>
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM<br>
> >>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon<br>
> >>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List<br>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4<br>
> accountability.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Hi.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out of<br>
> >>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going on for<br>
> >>>> way too long.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that I<br>
> >>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation. 16 years later,<br>
> same<br>
> >>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to<br>
> share the pool.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> The issues of accountability go back to the mid/late-1990s<br>
> >>>> when it was posed that companies/institutions/government be<br>
> >>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of<br>
> >>>> netblocks. Search the mailing list archives, I am sure you<br>
> >>>> will find commentary in regular spats.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys who have<br>
> >>>> benefits for themselves. They even have a sign on their<br>
> >>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'. (the rest of us are the<br>
> >>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by about 20<br>
> >>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give Away'<br>
> >>>> stock offering.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding<br>
> companies: PROFIT<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize. The playing field<br>
> >>>> should be level when it comes to this resource. It<br>
> never has<br>
> >>>> been. I don't think it ever will be.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> --<br>
> >>>> Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home!<br>
> <a href="mailto:drechsau@iphouse.net">drechsau@iphouse.net</a><br>
> >>>> The universe is an island, surrounded by<br>
> whatever it is<br>
> >>>> that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune<br>
> >>>>_______________________________________________<br>
> >>>> ARIN-Discuss<br>
> >>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
> >>>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>).<br>
> >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>
> >>>> <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br>
> >>>> Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>_______________________________________________<br>
> >>> ARIN-Discuss<br>
> >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
> >>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>).<br>
> >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>
> >>> <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br>
> >>> Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>_______________________________________________<br>
> >> ARIN-Discuss<br>
> >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
> >> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>).<br>
> >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>
> >> <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br>
> >> Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br>
> ><br>
> >_______________________________________________<br>
> > ARIN-Discuss<br>
> > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
> > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>).<br>
> > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>
> > <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br>
> > Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br>
> >_______________________________________________<br>
> > ARIN-Discuss<br>
> > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
> > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>).<br>
> > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>
> > <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br>
> > Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> ARIN-Discuss<br>
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>).<br>
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>
> <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br>
> Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> ARIN-Discuss<br>
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>).<br>
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>
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> Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
</div></div>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5">><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> ARIN-Discuss<br>
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to<br>
> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-discuss@arin.net">ARIN-discuss@arin.net</a>).<br>
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>
> <a href="http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss</a><br>
> Please contact <a href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>