<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><BR><DIV><DIV>On Oct 9, 2007, at 11:27 AM, David Muir Sharnoff wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">* I can only remind you all that ARIN is a bottom-up organization, not a top<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">* down one.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>There is no class of members who are victims, only classes of<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">* members who fail to participate.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The cost of meaningfull participation in ARIN exceeds one year's tithe.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Until this discussion came along, it seemed the only meaningful way</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to participate in ARIN was to go to one of the ARIN meetings or to</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">run for one of ARINs director slots.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>For most of us, attending one</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">of the ARIN meetings would cost more than just paying the yearly</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">fee.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>The most we could hope to gain by participating is less than</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the cost of participating.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>Generally, only organizations big enough</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to absorb the costs of participating actually participate.<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>That</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">usually ends up being the same thing as top-down.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I was participating in ARIN meaningfully well before I attended a members</DIV><DIV>meeting or ran for AC. The ARIN PPML has been an effective method</DIV><DIV>of participating in ARIN for many years now. The PPML is for all intents</DIV><DIV>and purposes absolutely free. (You pay the cost of sending and receiving</DIV><DIV>your own emails, but, I think we can call that effectively free.)</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>My initial participation in ARIN was as an individual representative of</DIV><DIV>an end-user organization consisting of not more than 4 people. My</DIV><DIV>total investment in said participation was $100/year plus $0 additional</DIV><DIV>costs to support my email (vs. what I would spend to do other internet</DIV><DIV>access anyway). If you want to count my entire internet costs that</DIV><DIV>year, my annual cost was $1,600, so, not much more than an X-Small</DIV><DIV>subscriber member's fees.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>While the community does not show consensus for some of my ideas</DIV><DIV>on how things should be, I certainly do not feel that my input has been</DIV><DIV>ignored or that it has received any less consideration than input from</DIV><DIV>organizations like Verizon, SPRINT, AT&T, etc. Indeed, I believe that</DIV><DIV>more of the policies I have drafted have been adopted than those</DIV><DIV>drafted by AT&T or Verizon representatives.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>The ARIN-DISCUSS mailing list has expanded that ability to facilitate</DIV><DIV>topics which are not appropriate to PPML and to keep an open</DIV><DIV>channel for the community (that's right, it's not even limited to</DIV><DIV>the membership, it's open to the entire community) to communicate</DIV><DIV>their opinions with each other and with the ARIN BoT, AC, and</DIV><DIV>staff.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Every year, I read of the list of candidates and look for one that<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">has a statement saying something like: "The fees are too high and I will</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">lower them" or "the fees are disproportionate and I will make the</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">large users pay more." <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>So far there has been no such candidate.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Are you talking about the BoT candidates or the AC candidates?</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>The AC candidates can't do anything about fees, so, of course there</DIV><DIV>would not be one making such a statement.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>As for the BoT, frankly, I think that this is the first time there has</DIV><DIV>been any real discussion of this particular subject. I don't believe</DIV><DIV>that ARIN's fees overall are excessive. I do think that it might make</DIV><DIV>more sense under the circumstances to make the fee structure</DIV><DIV>somewhat more topheavy than it currently is (i.e. raise fees on</DIV><DIV>the large and x-large orgs.), but, I don't think that would lower</DIV><DIV>the fees as much as you expect for the other orgs. Let's look at</DIV><DIV>the math:</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Current:</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"> # Members % Members % v4 space % fees</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">Xtra Small 390 14.8 0.29 5.7</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">Small 1,571 59.8 4.64 42.6</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">Medium 518 19.9 8.92 28.0</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">Large 71 2.7 6.87 7.7</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">Xtra Large 73 2.8 79.28 15.8</FONT></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>So... Let's say we changed the fee structure so that we doubled the Large</DIV><DIV>and X-Large fees and distributed the savings evenly to the other categories</DIV><DIV>of membership.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>First, the total amount collected under the current structure is:</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Size<SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN># Members<SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>Price @<SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>Total Collected</DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">X-Small</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"> 390</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"> 1,250</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"> 487,500</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">Small</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">1,571</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"> 2,250</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">3,534,</FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">750</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">Medium</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"> 518</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"> 4,500</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">2,331,000</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">Large</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"> 71</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"> 9,000<SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN> 639,000</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">X-Large</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"> 73</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">18,000<SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>1</FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">,314,000</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">Total</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">8,306</FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">,250</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV>Now, here's what it would look like if we doubled the fees for</DIV><DIV>Large and X-Large members:</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Size<SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN># Members<SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>Price @<SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>Total Collected</DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">X-Small</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"> </FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">390</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"> 462<SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN> 180,180</FONT><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">Small</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">1,571</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"> 1,462<SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>2,296,802</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">Medium</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"> 518</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"> 3,712<SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>1,922,816</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">Large</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"> 71</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">18</FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">,000<SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>1,278,000</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">X-Large</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"> 73</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">36</FONT><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">,000<SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN>2,628,000</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">Total</FONT><SPAN class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </SPAN><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">8,305,798</FONT></DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">The additional amount collected from the 144 members</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">in those two categories would be 1,953,000. This</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">would be divided amongst the 2,479 other members</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">providing an annual savings to each other member</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">of approximately $788 each. The discrepency</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">of $452 in the total is the result of rounding</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">the savings UP to 788/member in the smaller</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">categories. I think the easiest way to resolve</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">that would be to increase the medium fee by $1,</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">resulting in a $56 surplus.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">An alternative exercise: How much would each member</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">pay if we simply all paid the same amount without tiered</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">pricing based on allocation size:</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">Total members: 2,623</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">Price per member: 3,167</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">So... Medium, Large, and X-Large would, by that method,</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">actually pay less, while X-Small and Small would pay</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">more.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">I don't believe a flat fee would be fair. I also don't</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">believe that linear pricing based on IP resource</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">utilization is fair. I am not sure that the current</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">structure is the best compromise between the two, but,</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco">I think it does come reasonably close.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Monaco"></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The only other thing that ARIN could do to make my life easier would</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">be to publish a better rwhois daemon or an easier API for changing</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">SWIP/POC delegations.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Email templates are a difficult API? Interesting.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I think that ARIN would rather deprecate RWHOIS at this point. I know</DIV><DIV>that the original author wishes he'd never developed it and would</DIV><DIV>like to see it permanently deprecated.<BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Hopefully this discussion we're having now will result in lower fees</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">or rebates for most of us.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV>I guess the question is to what extent the majority should be allowed</DIV><DIV>to penalize the minority on the sole basis that they are running larger</DIV><DIV>organizations, have more or larger customers, etc.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Note, all of the subscriber member organizations I currently work with</DIV><DIV>would benefit from increasing the fees on large/x-large and lowering</DIV><DIV>other fees. However, in spite of that, I don't believe either of the fee</DIV><DIV>structures I mentioned would be better than what is currently</DIV><DIV>in place. </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Owen</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV></BODY></HTML>