[arin-discuss] fee waivers

[Owen DeLong]

On Jun 23, 2010, at 11:49 AM, Brian Johnson wrote:

> Replying in-line...
> 
> <snip>
>> 
>> On Jun 23, 2010, at 6:08 AM, Brian Johnson wrote:
>> 
>>> OK. So you are getting a better deal than any ISP, even with the
>>> discount we get for a short period. What is your complaint again?
>>> 
>>> Let's say I got a small IPv6 allocation in '08:
>>> 
>>> 				 You		 Me
>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>> Initial Allocation 	1250		 225
>>> Yr 2 Renewal		 100		 562.50
>>> Yr 3 Renewal		 100		1125
>>> Yr 4 Renewal		 100		1687.50
>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>> 3 year total		1450		2600
>>> 
>> Not necessarily...
>> 
>> First, that's a 4 year total, not a 3-year total for the ISP column.
>> The end user column would be 1550 for 4 years. So you're
>> not even comparing the same number of years in your table.
>> 
>> The three year totals would be:
>> 
>> 1450 vs. 1912.50
>> 
> 
> Sorry, I was doing math too fast while preparing to leave for a long
> trip. :)
> 
>> Let's look at it a little closer:
>> 
>> Potential records in database:
>> ISP /32: 65,000+  (/48s)  or perhaps 16+Million (/56s) I'll use 65,000
>> to be conservative.
>> End user /48: 1
>> 
>> 3 year total per record (ISP): <$0.03
>> 3 year total per record (End User): $1,450
>> 
> 
> This assumes a lot about my operations don't you think. I'm glad other
> people are there to tell me how to do assignments out of my blocks.
> 
Well, it's hard to do that math without making some assumptions. I tried
to choose the most conservative guideline (a /48 per average end-user
you (or your downstream LIRs) assign to). There are 65,536 /48s in
a /32. I'm assuming as an ISP you got at least a /32 (there's no ARIN
policy to give you less).

> Maybe we should have a per assignment fee for ISPs instead of the
> current idea of spreading the wealth around. (How would I go about
> suggesting this to ARIN?)
> 
There's always the ARIN Consultation and Suggestion Process, or
you can always discuss it here on arin-discuss or at open mic. at
the members meeting.

>> Oh, and, ARIN membership: ISP: $0 -- End User: $500/year.
>> 
>> Space with membership:
>> 
>> Initial:	ISP $225	EU $1750
>> Yr2:		ISP $562.5	EU $ 600
>> Yr3:		ISP $1125	EU $ 600
>> 
>> 3 Yr. Total: ISP: $1912.5 EU: $2950
> 
> Year 4 inverts this! A good time to stop for your argument.
> 
4 yr. total: ISP $4,162.5 EU: $3,550

Yes, it inverts it, but, not by all that much. On a time-value of
money calculation, you're still actually ahead. Some other things to
consider:

1.	ISPs are almost always in the business of providing IP services
	to make a profit. The more customers an ISP has, the more IP
	resources an ISP needs to meet the needs of their customers.

2.	Many end users are NOT for profit organizations or use IP
	resources as ancillary tool to their core business. Their need
	of resources is often independent of their number or size of
	customers.

I stopped here because it was where you chose to stop in your
original statement, not because I felt my position would be weakened
by continuing out to year 4 as you did.

>> 
>>> And every year after this I will pay $2250 for my allocation, but
> you
>>> will only pay $100 for your assignment. Do you expect me to feel
>> sorry
>>> for you or anyone in your situation?
>>> 
>> I'm seeing less reason to preserve the ISP fee waivers to be honest.
> 
> Agreed, but for completely different reasons.
> 
> I get your point, but it's a little to my point more than the original
> posters. Sorry for the bad math, but my point is made that as time
> progresses an allocation holder will pay EXCESSIVELY more than an
> assignment holder.
> 
Define Excessive. It's not at all uncommon for business entities using
something to increase their profits to pay higher fees for that thing than
casual users. Additionally, since what you are paying for is registration
services, it is assumed that for an LIR, that is an on-going fluid process
that continues long after each allocation is issued. Assuming your network
continues to grow, you will get additional allocations and may not be
paying any additional fees for those allocations. End users pay for each
and every assignment they get from ARIN, so, it's not even necessarily
true that they pay less over time.

On the other hand, end users that do pay less over time are also consuming
far less resources at ARIN over time. They are generally fire-and-forget
for the most part, save for the annual bill they receive for $100. ISPs, on
the other hand continue to update all kinds of customer records and are
far more likely to result in ARIN having to handle complaints about their
customer's use of space at some level.

> Let's say we have no waivers at all (a position I would have supported).
> A small ALLOCATION would have been $2250/year. The same for a small
> ASSIGNMENT would have been $2250 for the first year, but only $600 every
> year thereafter. So at year 2 the ISP would be paying 3.75x as much each
> year as the other.
> 
I'm not seeing a problem there.

> I run an ISP where we serve customers, but do very little, actually none
> as of right now, assignment of space. I have as much of an impact on
> ARIN operations as an assignment has. Should I qualify for an assignment
> instead of my allocation under this structure? If so, is there a way to
> transition between the two?
> 
If you're not assigning space to your customers, then, yes, you could get an
assignment and do just fine. The purpose of an allocation is for assignment
of address space to customers. There's no reason to get one if that's not
what you are doing.

> Just my $0.02.
> 
I'll see your $0.02 and raise you $0.05.

Owen

> - Brian
> 
> 
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Isn't this pretty dumb on something you post to a public mailing list? I do not agree to your contract and
do not feel myself bound by it's terms or conditions. The message you submitted is public data by
virtue of the list to which you posted. There is no valid expectation of confidentiality.