[arin-discuss] Reminder that ARIN = US - was Re: Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6 assignments to LRSA signatories

[Owen DeLong]

On Feb 8, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

> Keith W. Hare wrote:
> 
> "...it doesn't cost ARIN anything...."
> 
> Keith, I don't mean to single you out because Owen said exactly
> the same kind of thing, as did others, but I am taking this
> opportunity to mention that ARIN is NOT a profit-making entity,
> they CANNOT take a financial loss, there are no stockholders
> to deny dividends to, no owners.
> 
> A fee waiver is a COST the same as paying for the electric
> bill for the WHOIS servers, and a lease on the
> building ARIN is in, and the cost of the chairs in that building
> that the ARIN staff's butts are sitting on.
> 
A fee waiver is only a COST if someone takes advantage of said
fee waiver.  The portion of Keith's sentence (and mine, IIRC) that
you left off was "If nobody uses it, then..." as in

"If nobody uses it, it doesn't cost ARIN anything".

Yes, ARIN is us. What costs ARIN costs us.  Agreed.

> ALL MEMBERS OF ARIN that pay ANYTHING to ARIN - even if it's
> nothing more than a nominal $100 a year fee - are paying for those
> costs.
> 
And the theory behind this proposal is to increase the number of
participants that would be paying ARIN $100 on a continuing annual
basis at the equivalent cost of 12.5 years of service.

> The CORRECT SENTENCE is NOT  "cost ARIN anything"
> 
> The CORRECT SENTENCE is "cost YOU AND ME AND THE REST OF US anything"
> 
Respectfully, I disagree.  While ARIN is funded entirely by its
resource holders (note: resource holders != members although
there is significant overlap).  You can be an ARIN member without
resources and you can be a resource holder without being a member.

Anyway, ARIN is funded by its resource holders, but, from a liability
perspective, it is an independent entity. If ARIN absorbs too many
costs and does not collect sufficient fees from its resource holders,
the resource holders do not become liable for ARIN's debts. ARIN
becomes insolvent.

> I think sometimes people get the feeling that there's this
> mythical pot of money at ARIN that has no connection to their
> wallets, I will remind everyone here that ARIN's expenses are
> OUR expenses.
> 
Sure, just like an ISP's expenses are passed along to its customers.

ARIN = US from a policy perspective.  From a funding perspective, it's
a bit more indirect.

> The question we need to be asking is will spending the money on
> a fee waiver get more flies to the IPv6 pot than spending the money
> on something else like outreach or education, or another Team ARIN
> comic? ;-)
> 
Well, the answer is that if it doesn't, then, we didn't spend the money.
If it attracts 5 flies, then, it only costs $6,250. If it attracts 10 flies, then,
it costs $12,500 in uncollected fees.  However, most of those
organizations would not be paying anything currently and still receiving
services from ARIN for their IPv4 and ASN resources. So, the usual
net is that we pay out $1,250 per fly attracted and receive $100/year
from each attracted fly for a likely long time.  We also gain the ability
to reclaim said fly's space if they stop paying $100/year, which, I would
argue is an even greater value proposition.

To address some specific corner case concerns from Leo, I'd even
be willing to see the BoT modify the suggestion so it only included
LRSA signatories that could qualify for IPv4 under existing policy at
the time of their IPv6 application. I'm really not trying to create an
end-run around the process or give away free slots in the DFZ. I'm
really looking for a way to strengthen ARIN by embracing and
encompassing as many legacy holders into the LRSA as possible
and simultaneously promoting IPv6 adoption.

FWIW, I could have been in a position to benefit strongly from this
policy, but, I already signed the LRSA, already justified my existing
space, and, already qualified, paid for, and received an IPv6 /48 which
is actively routed and used.  IOW, I'm not looking for a freebie, I'm
looking to address a situation which I regard as detrimental to ARIN
as an organization... The vast number of legacy holders who have
not yet signed the LRSA and for whom we cannot account for the
status of their resources.



Owen