[arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.

Jon Auer jda at tapodi.net
Tue Jul 21 23:52:31 EDT 2009 

I'm in the same boat upstream-wise. As of the last time I inquired of
my upstreams (9 months ago so maybe its time to check again) IPv6 was
not available. TWC told me they had no plans to support it and Cogent
said their engineers were looking into it but they did not have a
deployment timeline.

We just hit 80% on our /19. I'm getting my paperwork in order to ask
for another allocation but I'm starting to hear through the grapevine
that ARIN has become more picky than usual over the past few months
with regards to vetting IPv4 requests (as they should be).

So, ARIN is a member organization.
Each of us has a vote. Just like Sprint, Comcast and each regional TWC network.
Together we small service providers probably have more votes than they
do. Of the people in this thread I recognize at least two of you from
industry lists, etc. Not sure if that's reciprocal. (Hi! Techware, UP
Logon (WISPA right?))
Lets all get more involved with the ARIN process and fix this.
See: https://www.arin.net/policy/pdp.html

Who would be in favor of a policy along the lines of the following:

ARIN shall not issue any IPv4 Number Resources unless the requesting
organization has:
1. A IPv6 subnet properly allocated from ARIN
2. Said IPv6 subnet is announced in the global IPv6 routing table
3. Said IPv6 subnet is visible from a neutral 3rd party's looking
glass (routeviews.org or similar)
4. Organization's customers or end users that would normally be
assigned a non-RFC1918 IPv4 address are given the option of
additionally being assigned a IPv6 subnet from said provider within 12
months or the IPv4 Number Resource granted under this policy shall be
revoked.

I had a IPv6 subnet allocated from ARIN and routed globally though
HE.net's tunnel broker within 48 hours.
Meeting a policy like that should be easy.
Even if you are a large provider 12 months should be enough time to
get one customer running with IPv6 to demonstrate token compliance
with section 4...

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:42 PM, <arin-discuss-request at arin.net> wrote:
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>   1. Re: Food for thought: IPv4 accountability. (Tony Valenti)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 21:42:39 -0500
> From: Tony Valenti <tony.valenti at powerdnn.com>
> To: John Brown <john at citylinkfiber.com>
> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
> Message-ID:
>        <e82f9b9b0907211942i29d69571v236434239025e04f at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> I'm in the same boat as one of the earlier readers mentioned.I think a big
> mistake that ARIN is making is that ARIN incorrectly assumes that we have
> something to do with making IPV6 a reality and managing IPV4 address space.
>
> Just recently I called one of our upstream providers (again) and asked them
> when we would be able to use IPV6 addresses.  After being escalated all the
> way to to their Level 4 engineers, i was told that they have no plans to
> implement IPV6 which means that if I put any content on an IPV6 address, I
> can expect at a minimum, 25% of the US won't have access to it.
>
> So, assuming that the upstream providers like ours just simply don't care,
> and in a few years there is a black market for IPV4 address space because
> the internet is officially out, what will you do?  As a webhosting company,
> we have no choice but to pay whatever the black market price for IPs is or
> go out of business/quit accepting customers.
>
> If I sound unhappy, it is because I am.  ARIN continually emphasizes the
> problem of depleting IPV4 but never offers or enforces anything to fix the
> problem - they just make the current process harder.  ARIN is a doomsday
> prophet powerless to change the fate that we all will endure.
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:26 PM, John Brown <john at citylinkfiber.com> wrote:
>
>>  I?ll ask the age old question again.
>>
>> What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything?  If Apple got
>> the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different then, what gives ARIN the
>> ability to  enforce rules today.
>>
>> Its contracts law.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <chris at uplogon.com> wrote:
>>
>> I would agree.  Us small guys don't want to get to a point where the big
>> guys are holding available IP address space over our heads for a fee.
>> Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with every small ISP
>> that comes along asking for address space.
>>
>> We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP space and also
>> requesting additional IP space.  We were successful on both attempts
>> because we could prove we needed the space.  We also have an IPv6 block
>> and already have it implemented on our routers.  But at this time, the
>> only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us running pure
>> IPv6 for a long time to come.
>>
>> ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large, mostly unused
>> blocks of IP address space.  A working group would be a good start, or
>> maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from each of these
>> companies.  ARIN has the right to poll current block holders of address
>> space on justification, why can't they do the same on these large
>> blocks?  If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or more of their
>> block, then they can keep it and we move on.  If not, then they should
>> break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Chris Gotstein
>> Sr Network Engineer
>> UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
>> 500 N Stephenson Ave
>> Iron Mountain, MI 49801
>> Phone: 906-774-4847
>> Fax: 906-774-0335
>> chris at uplogon.com
>>
>> Kelvin Williams wrote:
>> > Whoa, whoa, whoa.
>> >
>> > I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion of IPv4. Our
>> Broadband division services residential and SMB DOCSIS and DSL subscribers.
>> >
>> > In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy subscribers running Linux
>> or current versions of Windows that support IPv6, and the majority of web
>> destinations were running IPv6.
>> >
>> > I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT can cause
>> problems for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs, etc) in use today.
>> >
>> > So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are protecting what
>> blocks we manage from excess waste and paying for every block, will now be
>> at the mercy of these /8 holders who may be utilizing a tiny portion of the
>> blocks they are assigned when the "transfer market" comes into play.
>> >
>> > Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per IPv4 address
>> because they can go for that.
>> >
>> > I think instead of talking on these lists that there should be a steering
>> group developed to address the real issues. Forcing Apple, HP and the DoD to
>> implement IPv6 NOW freeing up those blocks. If they can't, they need to pay.
>> In my opinion, especially when looking at the DoD most of their networks
>> aren't accessed by the general public, so they can transition versus the
>> ISPs of the world dealing with users still running Windows 98.
>> >
>> > Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks to the
>> responsible little guy with the aforementioned issues without the
>> establishment of a transfer market, and work to create a series of large
>> bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6 gateways.
>> >
>> > (All of the above was written after too many beers at the local brew
>> pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made sense to us)
>> >
>> >
>> > Kw
>> >
>> >
>> > Kelvin Williams
>> > Altus Communications Group, Inc.
>> > Office Direct: 678.369.5968
>> > Office Main: 678.369.5970
>> > Fax: 866.895.8557
>> > Mobile: 678.852.4173
>> >
>> > Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net>
>> >
>> > Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01
>> > To: John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com>
>> > Cc: ARIN Discussion List<arin-discuss at arin.net>
>> > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely liking to have
>> > some), then a transfer market will
>> > exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will suddenly
>> > have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple continue to sit
>> > on them, they lose that money.  It's no different than charging them
>> > a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee.  Either way,
>> > they lose money.  The only difference is who gets the money they lose.
>> >
>> > Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market never forms
>> > and that block of numbers never gains value.  In which case nobody will
>> > be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.
>> >
>> > Either way, it works the same.
>> >
>> > Ted
>> >
>> > John Brown wrote:
>> >> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they have to assess a
>> >> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??
>> >>
>> >> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's there was no fee as
>> >> part of the "contract".
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: Steve Wagner [mailto:stwagner at syringanetworks.net]<stwagner at syringanetworks.net]>
>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM
>> >>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>> >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>> >>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>> >>>
>> >>> If either Apple or HP  corporate network sits behind a NAT
>> >>> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak about,
>> >>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type of
>> >>> entities for the address space they use, may result in them
>> >>> returning this address space to the allocation pool. This
>> >>> would be true for any other end user entity as well that uses
>> >>> a NAT type firewall
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Regards,
>> >>> Steve Wagner
>> >>> Vice President of Operations
>> >>> Syringa Networks, LLC
>> >>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
>> >>> Boise, ID 83705
>> >>> Office: 208.229.6104
>> >>> Main: 208.229.6100
>> >>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
>> >>> Fax: 208.229.6110
>> >>> Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
>> >>> Web: www.syringanetworks.net
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
>> >>>
>> >>> Privilege and Confidentiality Notice
>> >>> The information in this message is intended for the named
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>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>> >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]<arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]>On Behalf Of John Brown
>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM
>> >>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>> >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>> >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>> >>>
>> >>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of managing
>> >>> the actual
>> >>> usage ratios.  Lots of US service providers have space allocated or
>> >>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers don't exist any
>> >>> more.
>> >>>
>> >>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space is
>> >>> higher than the
>> >>> cost of them just getting new space.  So it doesn't happen.  I could
>> >>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting a public spot
>> >>> light on those providers. :|
>> >>>
>> >>> I believe that the early end user entities that got gobs of
>> >>> space should
>> >>> return the space they aren't using.
>> >>>
>> >>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???
>> >>> Does HP really need a /8 ??
>> >>>
>> >>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP addresses ??
>> >>>
>> >>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get space, I
>> >>> don't know.
>> >>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a broad brush.
>> >>>
>> >>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people doing
>> >>> good work
>> >>> under the guidelines they have.
>> >>>
>> >>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation
>> >>> request, I'm sure
>> >>> it can be resolved.
>> >>>
>> >>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to privately work
>> >>> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes
>> >>> muster and what
>> >>> may need to be done to help it float.
>> >>>
>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>> >>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]<arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]>On Behalf Of Mike Horwath
>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM
>> >>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon
>> >>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hi.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out of
>> >>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going on for
>> >>>> way too long.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that I
>> >>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation.  16 years later, same
>> >>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to share the pool.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The issues of accountability go back to the mid/late-1990s
>> >>>> when it was posed that companies/institutions/government be
>> >>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of
>> >>>> netblocks.  Search the mailing list archives, I am sure you
>> >>>> will find commentary in regular spats.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys who have
>> >>>> benefits for themselves.  They even have a sign on their
>> >>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'.  (the rest of us are the
>> >>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by about 20
>> >>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give Away'
>> >>>> stock offering.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding companies:  PROFIT
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize.  The playing field
>> >>>> should be level when it comes to this resource.  It never has
>> >>>> been.  I don't think it ever will be.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Mike Horwath      ipHouse - Welcome home!       drechsau at iphouse.net
>> >>>>         The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is
>> >>>>         that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
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