[arin-discuss] ARIN-discuss Digest, Vol 26, Issue 6
Carl Peterson
cpeterson at portnetworks.com
Tue Jul 21 22:47:02 EDT 2009
I was just going to post the same thing but it is only fair that we
develop a consensus as to when it is ok to blacklist a block for
unfair use of ip space. Once we have a quorum of sorts, like minded
admins and companies should act as a group.
As a basic rule I would start by saying that if a company or group is
holding a large block of ipv4 which they know they will never use, the
part that will never be used should be returned. The ip space that
they are holding only has value because the rest of us route to it.
Carl Peterson
Port Networks Llc
On Jul 21, 2009, at 10:30 PM, arin-discuss-request at arin.net wrote:
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> 1. Re: Food for thought: IPv4 accountability. (Kelvin Williams)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 02:30:25 +0000
> From: "Kelvin Williams" <kwilliams at altuscgi.com>
> To: "John Brown" <john at citylinkfiber.com>, "Chris Gotstein"
> <chris at uplogon.com>
> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
> Message-ID:
> <553073100-1248229804-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-232319848- at bxe1021.bisx.prod.on.blackberry
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> ARIN may not have the legal right to do anything. But, if they
> (Apple, et al) don't want to play fair with the rest of us, they
> don't have a legal right when we add ACLs blocking their traffic
> from traversing our networks. ;)
>
> Kw
>
>
> Kelvin Williams
> Altus Communications Group, Inc.
> Office Direct: 678.369.5968
> Office Main: 678.369.5970
> Fax: 866.895.8557
> Mobile: 678.852.4173
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Brown <john at citylinkfiber.com>
>
> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:26:02
> To: Chris Gotstein<chris at uplogon.com>; <kwilliams at altuscgi.com>
> Cc: <arin-discuss at arin.net>
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>
>
> I?ll ask the age old question again.
>
> What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything? If
> Apple got
> the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different then, what gives
> ARIN the
> ability to enforce rules today.
>
> Its contracts law.
>
>
>
>
> On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <chris at uplogon.com> wrote:
>
>> I would agree. Us small guys don't want to get to a point where
>> the big
>> guys are holding available IP address space over our heads for a fee.
>> Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with every small
>> ISP
>> that comes along asking for address space.
>>
>> We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP space and
>> also
>> requesting additional IP space. We were successful on both attempts
>> because we could prove we needed the space. We also have an IPv6
>> block
>> and already have it implemented on our routers. But at this time,
>> the
>> only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us running pure
>> IPv6 for a long time to come.
>>
>> ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large, mostly
>> unused
>> blocks of IP address space. A working group would be a good start,
>> or
>> maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from each of
>> these
>> companies. ARIN has the right to poll current block holders of
>> address
>> space on justification, why can't they do the same on these large
>> blocks? If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or more of their
>> block, then they can keep it and we move on. If not, then they
>> should
>> break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Chris Gotstein
>> Sr Network Engineer
>> UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
>> 500 N Stephenson Ave
>> Iron Mountain, MI 49801
>> Phone: 906-774-4847
>> Fax: 906-774-0335
>> chris at uplogon.com
>>
>> Kelvin Williams wrote:
>>>> Whoa, whoa, whoa.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion of IPv4.
>>>> Our
>>> Broadband division services residential and SMB DOCSIS and DSL
>>> subscribers.
>>>>
>>>> In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy subscribers
>>>> running Linux or
>>> current versions of Windows that support IPv6, and the majority of
>>> web
>>> destinations were running IPv6.
>>>>
>>>> I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT can
>>>> cause problems
>>> for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs, etc) in use today.
>>>>
>>>> So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are protecting
>>>> what blocks
>>> we manage from excess waste and paying for every block, will now
>>> be at the
>>> mercy of these /8 holders who may be utilizing a tiny portion of
>>> the blocks
>>> they are assigned when the "transfer market" comes into play.
>>>>
>>>> Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per IPv4
>>>> address because
>>> they can go for that.
>>>>
>>>> I think instead of talking on these lists that there should be a
>>>> steering
>>> group developed to address the real issues. Forcing Apple, HP and
>>> the DoD to
>>> implement IPv6 NOW freeing up those blocks. If they can't, they
>>> need to pay.
>>> In my opinion, especially when looking at the DoD most of their
>>> networks
>>> aren't accessed by the general public, so they can transition
>>> versus the ISPs
>>> of the world dealing with users still running Windows 98.
>>>>
>>>> Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks to the
>>>> responsible
>>> little guy with the aforementioned issues without the
>>> establishment of a
>>> transfer market, and work to create a series of large bandwidth
>>> IPv4 to IPv6
>>> gateways.
>>>>
>>>> (All of the above was written after too many beers at the local
>>>> brew
>>> pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made sense to us)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kw
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kelvin Williams
>>>> Altus Communications Group, Inc.
>>>> Office Direct: 678.369.5968
>>>> Office Main: 678.369.5970
>>>> Fax: 866.895.8557
>>>> Mobile: 678.852.4173
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net>
>>>>
>>>> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01
>>>> To: John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com>
>>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List<arin-discuss at arin.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely liking to
>>>> have
>>>> some), then a transfer market will
>>>> exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will suddenly
>>>> have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple continue
>>>> to sit
>>>> on them, they lose that money. It's no different than charging
>>>> them
>>>> a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee. Either way,
>>>> they lose money. The only difference is who gets the money they
>>>> lose.
>>>>
>>>> Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market never forms
>>>> and that block of numbers never gains value. In which case
>>>> nobody will
>>>> be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.
>>>>
>>>> Either way, it works the same.
>>>>
>>>> Ted
>>>>
>>>> John Brown wrote:
>>>>>> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they have to
>>>>>> assess a
>>>>>> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's there was
>>>>>> no fee as
>>>>>> part of the "contract".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Steve Wagner [mailto:stwagner at syringanetworks.net]
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM
>>>>>>>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>>>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>>>>>>>> accountability.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If either Apple or HP corporate network sits behind a NAT
>>>>>>>> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak about,
>>>>>>>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type of
>>>>>>>> entities for the address space they use, may result in them
>>>>>>>> returning this address space to the allocation pool. This
>>>>>>>> would be true for any other end user entity as well that uses
>>>>>>>> a NAT type firewall
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Steve Wagner
>>>>>>>> Vice President of Operations
>>>>>>>> Syringa Networks, LLC
>>>>>>>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
>>>>>>>> Boise, ID 83705
>>>>>>>> Office: 208.229.6104
>>>>>>>> Main: 208.229.6100
>>>>>>>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
>>>>>>>> Fax: 208.229.6110
>>>>>>>> Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
>>>>>>>> Web: www.syringanetworks.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>>>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of John Brown
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>>>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>>>>>>>> accountability.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of managing
>>>>>>>> the actual
>>>>>>>> usage ratios. Lots of US service providers have space
>>>>>>>> allocated or
>>>>>>>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers don't
>>>>>>>> exist any
>>>>>>>> more.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space is
>>>>>>>> higher than the
>>>>>>>> cost of them just getting new space. So it doesn't happen.
>>>>>>>> I could
>>>>>>>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting a
>>>>>>>> public spot
>>>>>>>> light on those providers. :|
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I believe that the early end user entities that got gobs of
>>>>>>>> space should
>>>>>>>> return the space they aren't using.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???
>>>>>>>> Does HP really need a /8 ??
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP
>>>>>>>> addresses ??
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get space, I
>>>>>>>> don't know.
>>>>>>>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a broad
>>>>>>>> brush.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people doing
>>>>>>>> good work
>>>>>>>> under the guidelines they have.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation
>>>>>>>> request, I'm sure
>>>>>>>> it can be resolved.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to
>>>>>>>> privately work
>>>>>>>> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes
>>>>>>>> muster and what
>>>>>>>> may need to be done to help it float.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Mike
>>>>>>>>>> Horwath
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>>>>>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4
>>>>>>>>>> accountability.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out of
>>>>>>>>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going on for
>>>>>>>>>> way too long.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that I
>>>>>>>>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation. 16 years later, same
>>>>>>>>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to share
>>>>>>>>>> the pool.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The issues of accountability go back to the mid/late-1990s
>>>>>>>>>> when it was posed that companies/institutions/government be
>>>>>>>>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of
>>>>>>>>>> netblocks. Search the mailing list archives, I am sure you
>>>>>>>>>> will find commentary in regular spats.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys who have
>>>>>>>>>> benefits for themselves. They even have a sign on their
>>>>>>>>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'. (the rest of us are the
>>>>>>>>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by about 20
>>>>>>>>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give Away'
>>>>>>>>>> stock offering.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding
>>>>>>>>>> companies: PROFIT
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize. The playing field
>>>>>>>>>> should be level when it comes to this resource. It never has
>>>>>>>>>> been. I don't think it ever will be.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau at iphouse.net
>>>>>>>>>> The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> ARIN-Discuss
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