[arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.

John Brown john at citylinkfiber.com
Tue Jul 21 22:26:02 EDT 2009 

I¹ll ask the age old question again.

What legal right does ARIN have to tell Apple to do anything?  If Apple got
the space pre-ARIN and the rules where different then, what gives ARIN the
ability to  enforce rules today.

Its contracts law.




On 7/21/09 8:14 PM, "Chris Gotstein" <chris at uplogon.com> wrote:

> I would agree.  Us small guys don't want to get to a point where the big
> guys are holding available IP address space over our heads for a fee.
> Those companies aren't just going to start dealing with every small ISP
> that comes along asking for address space.
> 
> We've gone through the process of getting our initial IP space and also
> requesting additional IP space.  We were successful on both attempts
> because we could prove we needed the space.  We also have an IPv6 block
> and already have it implemented on our routers.  But at this time, the
> only way you can run IPv6 is dual stack, i don't see us running pure
> IPv6 for a long time to come.
> 
> ARIN needs to step in and start dealing with these large, mostly unused
> blocks of IP address space.  A working group would be a good start, or
> maybe it's just a matter of asking for justification from each of these
> companies.  ARIN has the right to poll current block holders of address
> space on justification, why can't they do the same on these large
> blocks?  If HP and Apple can show they are using 80% or more of their
> block, then they can keep it and we move on.  If not, then they should
> break up their blocks, and return the un-used space to ARIN.
> 
> 
> --
> Chris Gotstein
> Sr Network Engineer
> UP Logon/Computer Connection UP
> 500 N Stephenson Ave
> Iron Mountain, MI 49801
> Phone: 906-774-4847
> Fax: 906-774-0335
> chris at uplogon.com
> 
> Kelvin Williams wrote:
>> > Whoa, whoa, whoa.
>> >
>> > I'm sure I represent several others facing the depletion of IPv4. Our
>> Broadband division services residential and SMB DOCSIS and DSL subscribers.
>> >
>> > In a perfect world we would be servicing savvy subscribers running Linux or
>> current versions of Windows that support IPv6, and the majority of web
>> destinations were running IPv6.
>> >
>> > I can't implement NAT for our subscribers given that NAT can cause problems
>> for some of the services (VoIP, VPNs, etc) in use today.
>> >
>> > So, if I'm reading this right, folks like me who are protecting what blocks
>> we manage from excess waste and paying for every block, will now be at the
>> mercy of these /8 holders who may be utilizing a tiny portion of the blocks
>> they are assigned when the "transfer market" comes into play.
>> >
>> > Lovely, I can't wait until I'm paying $100 a year per IPv4 address because
>> they can go for that.
>> >
>> > I think instead of talking on these lists that there should be a steering
>> group developed to address the real issues. Forcing Apple, HP and the DoD to
>> implement IPv6 NOW freeing up those blocks. If they can't, they need to pay.
>> In my opinion, especially when looking at the DoD most of their networks
>> aren't accessed by the general public, so they can transition versus the ISPs
>> of the world dealing with users still running Windows 98.
>> >
>> > Additionally the group could reallocate those big blocks to the responsible
>> little guy with the aforementioned issues without the establishment of a
>> transfer market, and work to create a series of large bandwidth IPv4 to IPv6
>> gateways.
>> >
>> > (All of the above was written after too many beers at the local brew
>> pub--if it doesn't make sense to you, it made sense to us)
>> >
>> >
>> > Kw
>> >
>> >
>> > Kelvin Williams
>> > Altus Communications Group, Inc.
>> > Office Direct: 678.369.5968
>> > Office Main: 678.369.5970
>> > Fax: 866.895.8557
>> > Mobile: 678.852.4173
>> >
>> > Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone with SprintSpeed
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net>
>> >
>> > Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:58:01
>> > To: John Brown<john at citylinkfiber.com>
>> > Cc: ARIN Discussion List<arin-discuss at arin.net>
>> > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > If people NEED IPv4 after runout (as opposed to merely liking to have
>> > some), then a transfer market will
>> > exist, and those unused IPv4 numbers of HP and Apple will suddenly
>> > have a transferable value - and as long as HP and Apple continue to sit
>> > on them, they lose that money.  It's no different than charging them
>> > a fee to where they then lose money paying the fee.  Either way,
>> > they lose money.  The only difference is who gets the money they lose.
>> >
>> > Apple and HP only DON'T lose money if a transfer market never forms
>> > and that block of numbers never gains value.  In which case nobody will
>> > be bugging ARIN to start charging them a fee.
>> >
>> > Either way, it works the same.
>> >
>> > Ted
>> >
>> > John Brown wrote:
>>> >> So the challenge for ARIN, is what legal right do they have to assess a
>>> >> fee on Apple or HP (to use them as an example here)??
>>> >>
>>> >> When Apple or HP got their space in the late 1980's there was no fee as
>>> >> part of the "contract".
>>> >>
>>> >> 
>>> >>
>>>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >>> From: Steve Wagner [mailto:stwagner at syringanetworks.net]
>>>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:38 PM
>>>> >>> To: John Brown; Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>> >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>> >>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> If either Apple or HP  corporate network sits behind a NAT
>>>> >>> firewall, they do not need the address space you speak about,
>>>> >>> i.e. 40 million. In this regard may charging those type of
>>>> >>> entities for the address space they use, may result in them
>>>> >>> returning this address space to the allocation pool. This
>>>> >>> would be true for any other end user entity as well that uses
>>>> >>> a NAT type firewall
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Regards,
>>>> >>> Steve Wagner
>>>> >>> Vice President of Operations
>>>> >>> Syringa Networks, LLC
>>>> >>> 3795 S Development Ave, Suite 100
>>>> >>> Boise, ID 83705
>>>> >>> Office: 208.229.6104
>>>> >>> Main: 208.229.6100
>>>> >>> Emergency: 1.800.454.7214
>>>> >>> Fax: 208.229.6110
>>>> >>> Email: Stwagner at syringanetworks.net
>>>> >>> Web: www.syringanetworks.net
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> "Idaho's Premier Fiber Optic Network"
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Privilege and Confidentiality Notice
>>>> >>> The information in this message is intended for the named
>>>> >>> recipients only. It may contain information that is
>>>> >>> privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from
>>>> >>> disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, you are
>>>> >>> hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution,
>>>> >>> or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of
>>>> >>> this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received
>>>> >>> this e-mail in error, do not print it or disseminate it or
>>>> >>> its contents. In such event, please notify the sender by
>>>> >>> return e-mail and delete the e-mail file immediately
>>>> >>> thereafter. Thank you.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>> >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of John Brown
>>>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 5:18 PM
>>>> >>> To: Mike Horwath; Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>> >>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I think that the other ARIN RIR's do a better job of managing
>>>> >>> the actual
>>>> >>> usage ratios.  Lots of US service providers have space allocated or
>>>> >>> assigned to downstream customers and those customers don't exist any
>>>> >>> more.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> The cost for provider X to tightly manage their space is
>>>> >>> higher than the
>>>> >>> cost of them just getting new space.  So it doesn't happen.  I could
>>>> >>> give multiple specific examples, at the risk of putting a public spot
>>>> >>> light on those providers. :|
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I believe that the early end user entities that got gobs of
>>>> >>> space should
>>>> >>> return the space they aren't using.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Does Apple Computer really need a /8 ???
>>>> >>> Does HP really need a /8 ??
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Do both of those entities really need 40 million+ IP addresses ??
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> For the specific issue of why Mr. Horwath can't get space, I
>>>> >>> don't know.
>>>> >>> He fails to articulate specifics and only talks with a broad brush.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I do know the ARIN staff and they are reasonable people doing
>>>> >>> good work
>>>> >>> under the guidelines they have.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> If there is some injustice on Mr. Horwath's allocation
>>>> >>> request, I'm sure
>>>> >>> it can be resolved.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> So to that end I'll offer a few minutes of my time to privately work
>>>> >>> with him on his allocation request and see if it passes
>>>> >>> muster and what
>>>> >>> may need to be done to help it float.
>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> >>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>> >>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Mike Horwath
>>>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:48 PM
>>>>> >>>> To: Nathaniel B. Lyon
>>>>> >>>> Cc: ARIN Discussion List
>>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Food for thought: IPv4 accountability.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Hi.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> This issue and scare of IPv4 going away, running out of
>>>>> >>>> space, I hear rice cakes are tasty - has been going on for
>>>>> >>>> way too long.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> I started my first ISP in 1993 and was told then that I
>>>>> >>>> needed to be stingy with my allocation.  16 years later, same
>>>>> >>>> mantra, same boys with their toys who don't want to share the pool.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> The issues of accountability go back to the mid/late-1990s
>>>>> >>>> when it was posed that companies/institutions/government be
>>>>> >>>> held to the same standards as joe schmoe consumer of
>>>>> >>>> netblocks.  Search the mailing list archives, I am sure you
>>>>> >>>> will find commentary in regular spats.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> This isn't going to change, unfortunately.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> The old boys club is just that: a club of old boys who have
>>>>> >>>> benefits for themselves.  They even have a sign on their
>>>>> >>>> clubhouse that states 'No Girlz'.  (the rest of us are the
>>>>> >>>> girlz if that wasn't obvious)
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> BUT: you too can join the club: just rewind time by about 20
>>>>> >>>> years, get in on the ground floor 'IP Address Give Away'
>>>>> >>>> stock offering.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Or do what others do, buy larger netblock holding companies:  PROFIT
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> If I sound a little bitter, I apologize.  The playing field
>>>>> >>>> should be level when it comes to this resource.  It never has
>>>>> >>>> been.  I don't think it ever will be.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> I said it, you read it, I can't take it back.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> --
>>>>> >>>> Mike Horwath      ipHouse - Welcome home!       drechsau at iphouse.net
>>>>> >>>>         The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is
>>>>> >>>>         that surrounds universes. - Berkely Fortune
>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>>> ARIN-Discuss
>>>>> >>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>>>>> >>>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
>>>>> >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>>>> >>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>> >>>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> ARIN-Discuss
>>>> >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>>>> >>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
>>>> >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>>> >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>> >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>>> >>>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> ARIN-Discuss
>>> >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>>> >> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
>>> >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>> >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>> >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > ARIN-Discuss
>> > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>> > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
>> > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>> > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>> > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > ARIN-Discuss
>> > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
>> > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
>> > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>> > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>> > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-Discuss
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
> 


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-discuss/attachments/20090721/b03a0ffc/attachment.html>

More information about the ARIN-discuss mailing list