[arin-discuss] The joy of SWIPping

Tue May 20 17:31:56 EDT 2008

Chad Kissinger wrote:
> The bottom line is that Scott and now you have said you were allowed to get new IP space without publicly publishing your customer's real data in SWIP.

If Scott refers to me, I wasn't the one who said that.

-Scott (Leibrand)

>  Michael and I have both been denied new IP space until we published the information.  I'm not sure whether I should hope to be treated like you were, or whether you should worry that you'll next be treated like I was... but what I do know is that if the policy was clear, specific and uniformly followed, neither of us would have to worry.
> 
> 
>  Onramp Access
> chad kissinger  |  president  |  onramp access, inc.
> p: 512.322.9200  |  f: 512.476.2878  |  www.onr.com
> your internet operations  |  built  |  deployed  |  managed
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Mittelstaedt [mailto:tedm at ipinc.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 2:51 PM
> To: Chad Kissinger; tkersnick at transworldix.net; arin-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Dean -vs- ARIN... again (Re: The joy of SWIPping)
> 
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Chad Kissinger [mailto:chad at onr.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 12:06 PM
>> To: Ted Mittelstaedt; tkersnick at transworldix.net;
>> arin-discuss at arin.net
>> Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Dean -vs- ARIN... again (Re: The
>> joy of SWIPping)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> There IS no "issue at hand"
>> I disagree, the issue is whether or not you have to put
>> specific customer information in RWHOIS or SWIP, I haven't
>> seen anyone from ARIN answer that yet.  You can assert
>> anything you want, but I want to hear it from the people who
>> are going to approve/deny my next IP space request.
>>
> 
> Last time we got space the ARIN hostmaster that did our request
> told me to supply justification EITHER on a spreadsheet OR on
> SWIP.  Of course, that is just my word on it, not anything written
> down.
> 
>>> The OP thus far has failed to show where he is required in
>> the NRPM to
>>> disclose competitive/prooprietary information in SWIP.
>> >From the NRPM, I find the following two relevant passages.
>>
>> "4.2.4.1. Utilization percentage (80%)
>> ISPs must have efficiently utilized all previous allocations
>> and at least 80% of their most recent allocation in order to
>> receive additional space. This includes all space reassigned
>> to their customers. The reassignment information section of
>> the ARIN ISP Network Request Template should be completed for
>> all address blocks that have been allocated to your
>> organization. In the template, line 1b. Assigned: information
>> will be verified via SWIP/RWHOIS and 1c. Reserved: should be
>> used to indicate internal network information.
> 
> I don't see anything in there that dictates that SWIP or RWHOIS
> must contain competitive/proprietary information.  Nothing
> in the manual says WHAT data is required to be in SWIP.  And
> furthermore if you spent any time working with rwhois you will
> find that virtually all fields in RWHOS are administrator-determined,
> this is per the rwhois standard.
> 
> The line is:
> 
> "...The reassignment information section of
>  the ARIN ISP Network Request Template should be completed for
>  all address blocks that have been allocated to your
>  organization...."
> 
> it doesen't say HOW it's to be completed.
> 
>> Please note
>> that until your prior utilization is verified to meet the 80%
>> requirement, ARIN can neither process nor approve a request
>> for additional addresses."
>>
>> And
>>
>> 3.2 Distributed Information Server Use Requirements
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> "The distributed information service must return reassignment
>> information for the IP address queried. The service may allow
>> for privacy protections for customers.
> 
> Once more, NOTE THAT
> 
>  "...The service may allow for privacy protections for customers..."
> 
> is stated BEFORE the explicit mention of RESIDENTIAL users.  Meaning,
> that the service (swip/rwhois) may allow for privacy protections
> for ALL customers, residential AND business.  It is only in the
> more specific section on residential users where specific fields,
> city, state, etc. are spelled out.
> 
> The NRPM is written in a manner that is deliberately vague on the
> issue of what data must be in SWIP.  I suspect this is intentional.
> 
> I think what is really making YOU uncomfortable is that the NRPM is
> not black and white on what constitutes contact information and what
> MUST be put in.
> 
> I personally WANT IT TO STAY that way.  Why?  Because, like pornography,
> this kind of information is subjective and I would rather give the
> ARIN staff of human beings the authority to look at a SWIP entry
> and tell the person who entered it that it's bogus and not usable
> for justification.  If you specify the info to the nth degree, then
> you take away that from the ARIN staff and this also allows people
> to beat ARIN over the head with the rules - they can meet the letter
> of the rules but not the spirit.
> 
> You might ALSO consider the use of the word "should" instead of "must"
> 
> Unfortunately, the recent Policitally Correct movement has done some
> damage to language, as people today write signs that say "you shouldn't
> walk on the grass" rather than say "your not permitted on the grass"
> and an entire generation has been raised to believe that the word
> "should" and the word "must" are identical.  They are not.  "must"
> states a required condition, "should" states a condition that the
> condition writer would really, really really like to make required,
> but they know they have no authority to do so.
> 
> You might say, your legally compelled to do things you must do, your
> morally compelled to do things you should do.
> 
>> So, the question remains, do you have to put the true POC
>> information for each of your customers in SWIP and expose it
>> to the Internet and your competitors?
>>
> 
> No, you don't "have" to.  You "should".
> 
> Ted
> 
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