From dean at av8.net  Fri Nov  2 11:38:35 2007
From: dean at av8.net (Dean Anderson)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 11:38:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <86pryvpk4g.fsf@seastrom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021125570.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>

On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Robert E. Seastrom wrote:

> 
> Dean Anderson <dean at av8.net> writes:
> 
> > This was just a junket; part of that $400,000 or so 46% increase in the
> > travel budget that I cited a couple weeks ago. Done under the euphemism
> > of "outreach".  These trade shows are indeed a lot of fun. I wish I had
> > an extra $400,000 to spend attending trade shows, staying in nice
> > hotels, flying around. Parties are always great when you have no sales
> > quotas to meet.  
>  
> Dean, I try to avoid responding to your mail since I don't like 
> feeding trolls...  but if you think that *working* a trade show (as 
> opposed to *attending* a trade show) is anything resembling "fun", 
> well, that's just the voice of inexperience speaking.  

I did booth duty for the OSF back in 1990.  I also did seminars on 
Motif. I have some experience with booth duty.

Booth duty not fun because you have to smile for 8 hours and try to sell
stuff.

But the parties are definitely fun. 

Of course, the ARIN guys don't have to sell anything, so that UN-fun
element is totally gone from their experience.

> If ARIN were looking for junkets, I'd be disappointed if they couldn't
> find a better destination than Boston in late October.

Boston is definitely a fun place in late October. Especially when the
Red Sox are winning.  This is a party town. That's probably why VON
comes here in the fall.

> > But otherwise, I enjoyed the chance to talk to Einar and Jon,
> > especially after I felt I couldn't attend Albuquerque because of the
> > unrestrained presence of persons from Nanog who have made physical
> > threats of violence against me.
> 
> I don't seem to suffer these difficulties.  Maybe it's you.

You participate in Nanog, and YOU make offensive statements and engage
in name calling. Maybe its you who encourages the violence.  Certainly, 
your behavior doesn't encourage education.

		--Dean

-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
617 344 9000   




From michael.dillon at bt.com  Fri Nov  2 12:02:53 2007
From: michael.dillon at bt.com (michael.dillon at bt.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:02:53 -0000
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021139040.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>
References: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0014B407B@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021139040.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B00152059A@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>


> The term "educational outreach" is being used as an excuse 
> for junkets and to support the board members pet projects. 

Prove it. I want to see evidence, not just idle speculation.

> There is no genuine educational value in any of these activities.

Where's the proof?

> ARIN didn't do "educational outreach" at VON:

Evidence please.

> There was no 
> one attending VON who needed to obtain IP addresses that 
> didn't know how to do that.  

Show me your survey results and the list of attendees that
you interviewed.

> Most attendees didn't need to obtain IP addresses from ARIN 
> and wouldn't qualify for an allocation if they wanted one.  

Again, prove it with hard evidence.

> Most VON attendees get their IP addresses from ISPs.

That is a statistical statement. Show me the raw numbers behind it.

In other words, put up or shut up!

--Michael Dillon

P.S. If you believe this stuff and do not run for the Board of Trustees
election, then you are personally aiding and abetting the fraud that you
are complaining about.




From wsantiago at prtcmail.prtc.net  Fri Nov  2 12:41:22 2007
From: wsantiago at prtcmail.prtc.net (Willie Santiago)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 12:41:22 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Fw:  Legacy RSA
Message-ID: <OF9278BB5F.FFE850F7-ON04257387.005B788C-04257387.005BBE12@prtcmail.prtc.net>

Hi


Julio


I copied you. Because you are starting that Admin POC soon.


Atentamente
Sr. Willie E. Santiago Rivera
Supervisor Redes Avanzadas e Internet
Puerto Rico Telephone Company
Tel?fonos 787-749-3315 X-2226 787-453-4972 Celular
wsantiago at prtcmail.prtc.net   wesr at prtc.net
----- Forwarded by Willie Santiago/ITS/PRTC on 11/02/2007 12:39 PM -----

<michael.dillon at bt.com> 
Sent by: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
11/02/2007 12:02 PM

To
<arin-discuss at arin.net>
cc

Subject
Re: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA







> The term "educational outreach" is being used as an excuse 
> for junkets and to support the board members pet projects. 

Prove it. I want to see evidence, not just idle speculation.

> There is no genuine educational value in any of these activities.

Where's the proof?

> ARIN didn't do "educational outreach" at VON:

Evidence please.

> There was no 
> one attending VON who needed to obtain IP addresses that 
> didn't know how to do that. 

Show me your survey results and the list of attendees that
you interviewed.

> Most attendees didn't need to obtain IP addresses from ARIN 
> and wouldn't qualify for an allocation if they wanted one. 

Again, prove it with hard evidence.

> Most VON attendees get their IP addresses from ISPs.

That is a statistical statement. Show me the raw numbers behind it.

In other words, put up or shut up!

--Michael Dillon

P.S. If you believe this stuff and do not run for the Board of Trustees
election, then you are personally aiding and abetting the fraud that you
are complaining about.


_______________________________________________
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From wsantiago at prtcmail.prtc.net  Fri Nov  2 12:42:25 2007
From: wsantiago at prtcmail.prtc.net (Willie Santiago)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 12:42:25 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Fw:  Legacy RSA
Message-ID: <OF76635A86.226BC02C-ON04257387.005BBAD1-04257387.005BD683@prtcmail.prtc.net>

Hi


Julio


I copied you. Because you are starting that Admin POC soon.


Atentamente
Sr. Willie E. Santiago Rivera
Supervisor Redes Avanzadas e Internet
Puerto Rico Telephone Company
Tel?fonos 787-749-3315 X-2226 787-453-4972 Celular
wsantiago at prtcmail.prtc.net   wesr at prtc.net
----- Forwarded by Willie Santiago/ITS/PRTC on 11/02/2007 12:42 PM -----

Dean Anderson <dean at av8.net> 
Sent by: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
11/02/2007 11:38 AM

To
"Robert E. Seastrom" <rs at seastrom.com>
cc
arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject
Re: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA






On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Robert E. Seastrom wrote:

> 
> Dean Anderson <dean at av8.net> writes:
> 
> > This was just a junket; part of that $400,000 or so 46% increase in 
the
> > travel budget that I cited a couple weeks ago. Done under the 
euphemism
> > of "outreach".  These trade shows are indeed a lot of fun. I wish I 
had
> > an extra $400,000 to spend attending trade shows, staying in nice
> > hotels, flying around. Parties are always great when you have no sales
> > quotas to meet. 
> 
> Dean, I try to avoid responding to your mail since I don't like 
> feeding trolls...  but if you think that *working* a trade show (as 
> opposed to *attending* a trade show) is anything resembling "fun", 
> well, that's just the voice of inexperience speaking. 

I did booth duty for the OSF back in 1990.  I also did seminars on 
Motif. I have some experience with booth duty.

Booth duty not fun because you have to smile for 8 hours and try to sell
stuff.

But the parties are definitely fun. 

Of course, the ARIN guys don't have to sell anything, so that UN-fun
element is totally gone from their experience.

> If ARIN were looking for junkets, I'd be disappointed if they couldn't
> find a better destination than Boston in late October.

Boston is definitely a fun place in late October. Especially when the
Red Sox are winning.  This is a party town. That's probably why VON
comes here in the fall.

> > But otherwise, I enjoyed the chance to talk to Einar and Jon,
> > especially after I felt I couldn't attend Albuquerque because of the
> > unrestrained presence of persons from Nanog who have made physical
> > threats of violence against me.
> 
> I don't seem to suffer these difficulties.  Maybe it's you.

You participate in Nanog, and YOU make offensive statements and engage
in name calling. Maybe its you who encourages the violence.  Certainly, 
your behavior doesn't encourage education.

                                 --Dean

-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
617 344 9000 


_______________________________________________
ARIN-Discuss
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From wsantiago at prtcmail.prtc.net  Fri Nov  2 12:43:27 2007
From: wsantiago at prtcmail.prtc.net (Willie Santiago)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 12:43:27 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Fw: [arin-announce] Result of Community Consultation
 - "Lame Delegation Information in WHOIS"
Message-ID: <OF9AF1D899.7F9A7A7D-ON04257387.005BCED3-04257387.005BEEA6@prtcmail.prtc.net>

Hi


Julio


I copied you. Because you are starting that Admin POC soon.


Atentamente
Sr. Willie E. Santiago Rivera
Supervisor Redes Avanzadas e Internet
Puerto Rico Telephone Company
Tel?fonos 787-749-3315 X-2226 787-453-4972 Celular
wsantiago at prtcmail.prtc.net   wesr at prtc.net
----- Forwarded by Willie Santiago/ITS/PRTC on 11/02/2007 12:43 PM -----

Member Services <info at arin.net> 
Sent by: arin-announce-bounces at arin.net
11/02/2007 12:20 PM

To
arin-announce at arin.net, consult at arin.net
cc

Subject
[arin-announce] Result of Community Consultation - "Lame Delegation 
Information in WHOIS"






Suggestion 2007.29, asking that ARIN implement the lame-delegation 
policy on a per-zone basis and not a per-network basis, was sent through 
the ARIN Consultation process.

Links to the consultation mailing list discussion are available on the 
ARIN website at:

http://lists.arin.net/pipermail/consult/2007-October/thread.html

Although the consultation resulted in minimal community feedback, ARIN 
feels that there is support for this change in operational practice.

ARIN will make this change with one enhancement. As part of the change, 
ARIN will also change WHOIS to indicate which portions of a network 
block are lame. Thus, the community will be able to tell that the 
omission of one or more delegations (/24's) out of the zone was done on 
purpose and would not be looked upon as a bug in the zone generation or 
resolution process.  The will be completed by the end of 2nd quarter 2008.

Regards,

Member Services
American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN)
_______________________________________________
ARIN-Announce
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN 
Announce
Mailing List (ARIN-announce at arin.net).
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
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From dean at av8.net  Fri Nov  2 13:39:20 2007
From: dean at av8.net (Dean Anderson)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:39:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <p06240800c34e655a7cf2@[192.168.16.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>

On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, John Curran wrote:

>    There are several dozen ISP's and hosted service providers at VON

Wasn't quite that many. There were a few, though. Their sales and
marketing departments were well represented.  I spoke with a number of
them.  But the employees who would deal with ARIN were not there. And I
didn't expect that they would be.

>    The ARIN community asked us at multiple meetings to engage
>    in more outreach regarding IPv6, and we are doing so.  This
>    includes having ARIN at various ISP, web hosting, and Internet
>    events.

VON may be an 'internet event', but it is targeted at a different
community. That community is not one that has anything to do with
choosing IPv6. 

> From your email, I believe that you feel this is not a worthwhile use
> of ARIN resources,

A VON booth is (obviously) not effective at reaching the target
operation and engineering staff that have anything to do with
implmenting IPv6 in networks or obtaining IPv6 allocations.

VOIP products use protocols (TCP and UDP) that work over either IPv4 or
IPv6, so there is nothing that VOIP developers really need to do with
respect to ARIN.  The developers will follow VOIP protocol standards
requested by customers and defined by the standards organizations; the
IETF, ITU, etc.  ARIN is not a large VOIP customer, nor a standards
organization.  VOIP products that are implemented on platforms that
support IPv6 and are deployed on networks that support IPv6, just work.  
But if the platforms or the networks don't support IPv6, then tough
luck, it won't work. There is nothing for the VOIP company to do. It has
no input into the choice of IPv6.

There may indeed be tradeshows where ARIN can be effective. VON is
certainly not one of them.  ARIN Management should make better choices.

		--Dean



From Ed.Lewis at neustar.biz  Fri Nov  2 13:58:09 2007
From: Ed.Lewis at neustar.biz (Edward Lewis)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 10:58:09 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN presence at VON
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <a06240801c351138e7970@[172.27.174.161]>

I want to voice support for ARIN staff's decision to have a presence 
at VON.  It shows that ARIN's staff is well aware of the world beyond 
the "traditional" public Internet, that being the RIR's, IETF, ISOC, 
ICANN, *NOG's (NANOG here) and such meetings.

I wouldn't be surprised if ARIN staff were to consider attending 
other events such as GSMA, W3C, OASIS, to name just a few, plus 
ITU-related events, etc.  The benefit to the ARIN community is that 
this is one way to broaden the spectrum of voices in the bottom-up 
process we have fostered, one way to prevent ARIN from being 
"controlled" by any one bloc of interests.

Recognizing that as much as ARIN is an Internet Organization it is 
also a Registry.  I wouldn't be surprised if the staff were to feel 
that interaction with registries of other kinds would strengthen ARIN.
-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Think glocally.  Act confused.


From dlw+arin at tellme.com  Fri Nov  2 14:06:10 2007
From: dlw+arin at tellme.com (David Williamson)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 11:06:10 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>
References: <p06240800c34e655a7cf2@[192.168.16.4]>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <20071102180610.GP26738@shell01.cell.sv2.tellme.com>

On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 01:39:20PM -0400, Dean Anderson wrote:
> There may indeed be tradeshows where ARIN can be effective. VON is
> certainly not one of them.  ARIN Management should make better choices.

Then run for the board and, if elected, make them change course.
Personally, I don't mind that they showed up at VON.  More outreach
in any technical forum that utilizes IP resources is fine with me.

Unless you are willing to run for the board and try to make a
difference, this entire line of discussion is pretty much useless.  I
now understand that you believe that ARIN's booth at VON was useless.
I don't think you'll convince many people of that position, and no one
is likely to convince you that you are incorrect.

Let's drop this point and move along, since all we're going to acheive
is more disagreement on this topic.  Agree to disagree and let it go,
please.

-David


From jcurran at istaff.org  Fri Nov  2 14:12:06 2007
From: jcurran at istaff.org (John Curran)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 14:12:06 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <p06240802c3511338e8c9@[192.168.8.68]>

At 1:39 PM -0400 11/2/07, Dean Anderson wrote:
>VOIP products use protocols (TCP and UDP) that work over either IPv4 or
>IPv6, so there is nothing that VOIP developers really need to do with
>respect to ARIN.  The developers will follow VOIP protocol standards
>requested by customers

Interesting.   I wonder how the customers will come to ask for IPv6
support, if they are unaware of the upcoming issue?

>VOIP products that are implemented on platforms that
>support IPv6 and are deployed on networks that support IPv6, just work. 

Semantically, there's not a lot of meaning to the above, as it's agreed
that products that support IPv6 and are deployed on IPv6 actually do
support IPv6.  Supporting IPv4 and IPv6 doesn't mean you can handle
communications between customers using both, and many service
providers aren't aware that they need to start asking for IPv6 support.

I spoke at the VON Theatre on this issue, and we had an active audience
of service providers with questions about all aspects of the transition.
In fact, the response was large enough that Pulvermedia has asked
that we get together with them and provide additional information
(on IPv4 depletion and IPv6) so that they can do outreach it via their
various channels.  Pulver does seem to know something about VoIP,
so forgive me if I'm more likely to listen to them and the thankful
attendees regarding the useful of ARIN's participation at VON.

/John


From ghiscott at keyconnect.com  Fri Nov  2 14:14:58 2007
From: ghiscott at keyconnect.com (G.Hiscott)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 11:14:58 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <472B6922.7040609@keyconnect.com>

I agree with Dean Anderson regarding his point about ARIN travel.

It often, in my opinion, seems pointless and as much could be 
accomplished with teleconferencing or videoconferencing.

We are supposed to be an example of the new way of communicating yet 
ARIN is still motivating people to fly to far off places and spend 
resources above and beyond what is needed to confer.

The outreach is a joke, in my opinion.  They don't need to sell or 
peddle address space.  Every college kid receiving a diploma today knows 
about the net and can find out how to get address space quite easily 
through Google.

Regarding the rebuttal: It strengthens ARIN

How does it strengthen ARIN?  ARIN is a form of a monopoly.  It has a 
charge to administrate address space.  Nobody can compete.  Everybody 
who wants to participate can participate.  It is established.

What do you mean by the word "Strengthen" -  Does that mean it will help 
arin to get members converted to IPV6 faster ?  Will it reduce their 
costs in some way ?  Will it help them with a breakthrough development 
in administrating address space?  Yeah, right.



GJH




From jcurran at istaff.org  Fri Nov  2 14:25:56 2007
From: jcurran at istaff.org (John Curran)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 14:25:56 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
In-Reply-To: <472B6922.7040609@keyconnect.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>
	<472B6922.7040609@keyconnect.com>
Message-ID: <p06240801c3511a0480a1@[192.168.8.68]>

At 11:14 AM -0700 11/2/07, G.Hiscott wrote:
>Does that mean it will help arin to get members converted to IPV6 faster ?

So we've got a global community building products and services
based on "The Internet", and the majority are aware how the
Internet and IP protocol suite works but unaware of the chance
that they will not be able to generally obtain IPv4 address space
(as it's been in the past) from the registries in 3 or 4 years.

The community that we reach via this mailing list, and the
various meetings are all aware of this, but wouldn't it be a
wise idea to raise the possibility to other folks who might be
basing their future offerings exclusively on IPv4 connected
Internet users?

/John


From tedm at ipinc.net  Fri Nov  2 14:37:20 2007
From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 11:37:20 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
In-Reply-To: <p06240801c3511a0480a1@[192.168.8.68]>
Message-ID: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOMEGOHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>



>-----Original Message-----
>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of John Curran
>Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:26 AM
>To: G.Hiscott
>Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
>
>
>At 11:14 AM -0700 11/2/07, G.Hiscott wrote:
>>Does that mean it will help arin to get members converted to IPV6 faster ?
>
>So we've got a global community building products and services
>based on "The Internet", and the majority are aware how the
>Internet and IP protocol suite works but unaware of the chance
>that they will not be able to generally obtain IPv4 address space
>(as it's been in the past) from the registries in 3 or 4 years.
>
>The community that we reach via this mailing list, and the
>various meetings are all aware of this, but wouldn't it be a
>wise idea to raise the possibility to other folks who might be
>basing their future offerings exclusively on IPv4 connected
>Internet users?
>

I actually think that right now ARIN should be working more on
visiting shows that the major networks would have staff attending.
There are still a great many transit providers out there who
are not routing IPv6 at the current time.  There is no point in
getting the customer base stirred up and demanding IPv6 when
it's not available from their network provider, they will just
lose interest in it.

The US Government mandated IPv6 support by next year - 2008 -
to bid on their contracts, I suspect that we are going to see a
lot of transit networks start routing it who haven't been doing so
already, in another 10 months from now, at least in the US, just
because of that mandate.

Ted



From rs at seastrom.com  Fri Nov  2 14:55:17 2007
From: rs at seastrom.com (Robert E. Seastrom)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 14:55:17 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
In-Reply-To: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOMEGOHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net> (Ted Mittelstaedt's
	message of "Fri, 2 Nov 2007 11:37:20 -0700")
References: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOMEGOHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <86hck47a0a.fsf@seastrom.com>


"Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm at ipinc.net> writes:

> I actually think that right now ARIN should be working more on
> visiting shows that the major networks would have staff attending.
> There are still a great many transit providers out there who
> are not routing IPv6 at the current time.  There is no point in
> getting the customer base stirred up and demanding IPv6 when
> it's not available from their network provider, they will just
> lose interest in it.

Actually, it is quite the opposite.  Providers who survived the bubble
bursting have learned their lesson about the "if you build it they
will come" mentality; they're only setting up network resources in
direct response to customer demands.

> The US Government mandated IPv6 support by next year - 2008 -
> to bid on their contracts, I suspect that we are going to see a
> lot of transit networks start routing it who haven't been doing so
> already, in another 10 months from now, at least in the US, just
> because of that mandate.

I suspect that the big networks, who are already on the GSA Schedule,
already have ample v6 resources in play to be able to respond to RFPs
from the Feds...  and for those who don't, well, no amount of
preaching from ARIN is going to fix that.

Outreach properly belongs in the arenas where ARIN is putting it
*right now* - trying to get to the folks who have historically looked
at IP addresses and IP pipe as a bit of a utility, like the water
company...  mostly unlimited supply, and when you turn the faucet it
Just Works.

                                        ---rob




From Ed.Lewis at neustar.biz  Fri Nov  2 15:05:51 2007
From: Ed.Lewis at neustar.biz (Edward Lewis)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 12:05:51 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
In-Reply-To: <472B6922.7040609@keyconnect.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>
	<472B6922.7040609@keyconnect.com>
Message-ID: <a06240804c3511ea0115c@[172.27.174.161]>

At 11:14 -0700 11/2/07, G.Hiscott wrote:

>What do you mean by the word "Strengthen" -  Does that mean it will help
>arin to get members converted to IPV6 faster ?  Will it reduce their
>costs in some way ?  Will it help them with a breakthrough development
>in administrating address space?

ARIN's role is to serve the public interest.  ARIN is a reflection of 
its environment.  As such, a reflection, it can be no better than 
what comes in.  The greater the spectrum of input, the stronger the 
reflection will be.

ARIN is not to dominate the discussion.  ARIN is not the source of 
influence.    If ARIN is unduly influenced by one corner of the 
audience, it will fail its mission.  Ultimately it would wither and 
fade.  If ARIN is unbalanced, shows bias, it is malfunctioning.  If 
the situation is noticed and remains unfixed, ARIN should be 
dissolved.

The power of ARIN is not from it's position of dominance but via the 
open, transparent, bottom-up process that those of us who have been 
participating are fostering.  This is why I believe that the most 
important part of the face-to-face meeting agendas are the open mics. 
Any can have a say and the words are recorded into archived material. 
It is not a monopoly.

ARIN's job is not limited to getting it's members converted to IPv6. 
ARIN's job is to make sure that the global investment to date in a 
scalable, end-to-end data communications grid is sustained into the 
future.  ARIN is not to promote IPv6, but that is the most workable 
solution to the greater goal.  As part of that, ARIN (staff)'s job is 
to get the word out as widely as possible.

What's the cost of not having a global network?  Think of how costs 
have gone down as commerce on the Internet has increased - for 
services that have existed before the Internet came around.  Think 
about the rise in the standard of living that has come about via the 
innovations in services that have come from the Internet and IP 
technologies.

Breakthrough in administration of address space?  That's not the 
goal, but then again, administering IPv6 is going to be much easier 
than IPv4.  From the point of view of ARIN and for LIR's and for 
ISP's.
-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis                                                +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Think glocally.  Act confused.


From BillD at cait.wustl.edu  Fri Nov  2 15:25:01 2007
From: BillD at cait.wustl.edu (Bill Darte)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 14:25:01 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>
	<472B6922.7040609@keyconnect.com>
Message-ID: <EACF8B735E9CBA4B8BAF9E4165D030871CBA16@ex1.cait.wustl.edu>

If ARIN were to restrict its outreach through telconf meetings there would be howl about catering to only techies and those with such resources.  ARIN travels about the service area precisely so that many can attend who cannot fly off to expensive places.

Outreach is not a joke...it's hard to gain mindshare of all those who need let alone those who should know of the v4 and v6 issues.  If you have more suggestions on how to actually reach and inform more audiences, your input is welcome.

I teach at a premier university and while you're right, students know of the internet and use it, but its remarkable how little they know  of how it works...even when the subject being taught involves these protocols..and those are graduate students and technologists from prestigious companies....

Bill Darte
ARIN AC
Washington University in St. Louis


-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net on behalf of G.Hiscott
Sent: Fri 11/2/2007 1:14 PM
To: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
 
I agree with Dean Anderson regarding his point about ARIN travel.

It often, in my opinion, seems pointless and as much could be 
accomplished with teleconferencing or videoconferencing.

We are supposed to be an example of the new way of communicating yet 
ARIN is still motivating people to fly to far off places and spend 
resources above and beyond what is needed to confer.

The outreach is a joke, in my opinion.  They don't need to sell or 
peddle address space.  Every college kid receiving a diploma today knows 
about the net and can find out how to get address space quite easily 
through Google.

Regarding the rebuttal: It strengthens ARIN

How does it strengthen ARIN?  ARIN is a form of a monopoly.  It has a 
charge to administrate address space.  Nobody can compete.  Everybody 
who wants to participate can participate.  It is established.

What do you mean by the word "Strengthen" -  Does that mean it will help 
arin to get members converted to IPV6 faster ?  Will it reduce their 
costs in some way ?  Will it help them with a breakthrough development 
in administrating address space?  Yeah, right.



GJH


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Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
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From BillD at cait.wustl.edu  Fri Nov  2 15:25:39 2007
From: BillD at cait.wustl.edu (Bill Darte)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 14:25:39 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>
	<472B6922.7040609@keyconnect.com>
Message-ID: <EACF8B735E9CBA4B8BAF9E4165D030871CBA17@ex1.cait.wustl.edu>

And...I forgot to mention.... 
ARIN provides a uniques service related to unique numbers and its role suggests limited overlap.  It is not close to being a monopoly in any significant economic sense of the term.
bd


-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net on behalf of G.Hiscott
Sent: Fri 11/2/2007 1:14 PM
To: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
 
I agree with Dean Anderson regarding his point about ARIN travel.

It often, in my opinion, seems pointless and as much could be 
accomplished with teleconferencing or videoconferencing.

We are supposed to be an example of the new way of communicating yet 
ARIN is still motivating people to fly to far off places and spend 
resources above and beyond what is needed to confer.

The outreach is a joke, in my opinion.  They don't need to sell or 
peddle address space.  Every college kid receiving a diploma today knows 
about the net and can find out how to get address space quite easily 
through Google.

Regarding the rebuttal: It strengthens ARIN

How does it strengthen ARIN?  ARIN is a form of a monopoly.  It has a 
charge to administrate address space.  Nobody can compete.  Everybody 
who wants to participate can participate.  It is established.

What do you mean by the word "Strengthen" -  Does that mean it will help 
arin to get members converted to IPV6 faster ?  Will it reduce their 
costs in some way ?  Will it help them with a breakthrough development 
in administrating address space?  Yeah, right.



GJH


_______________________________________________
ARIN-Discuss
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion
Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
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From wsantiago at prtcmail.prtc.net  Fri Nov  2 15:39:29 2007
From: wsantiago at prtcmail.prtc.net (Willie Santiago)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:39:29 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Fw:  ARIN Travel
Message-ID: <OF01498541.F8528EF8-ON04257387.006BEB69-04257387.006C0CB6@prtcmail.prtc.net>

Hi


Julio


I copied you. Because you are starting that Admin POC soon.


Atentamente
Sr. Willie E. Santiago Rivera
Supervisor Redes Avanzadas e Internet
Puerto Rico Telephone Company
Tel?fonos 787-749-3315 X-2226 787-453-4972 Celular
wsantiago at prtcmail.prtc.net   wesr at prtc.net
----- Forwarded by Willie Santiago/ITS/PRTC on 11/02/2007 03:39 PM -----

Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis at neustar.biz> 
Sent by: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
11/02/2007 03:05 PM

To
"G.Hiscott" <ghiscott at keyconnect.com>
cc
arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject
Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel






At 11:14 -0700 11/2/07, G.Hiscott wrote:

>What do you mean by the word "Strengthen" -  Does that mean it will help
>arin to get members converted to IPV6 faster ?  Will it reduce their
>costs in some way ?  Will it help them with a breakthrough development
>in administrating address space?

ARIN's role is to serve the public interest.  ARIN is a reflection of 
its environment.  As such, a reflection, it can be no better than 
what comes in.  The greater the spectrum of input, the stronger the 
reflection will be.

ARIN is not to dominate the discussion.  ARIN is not the source of 
influence.    If ARIN is unduly influenced by one corner of the 
audience, it will fail its mission.  Ultimately it would wither and 
fade.  If ARIN is unbalanced, shows bias, it is malfunctioning.  If 
the situation is noticed and remains unfixed, ARIN should be 
dissolved.

The power of ARIN is not from it's position of dominance but via the 
open, transparent, bottom-up process that those of us who have been 
participating are fostering.  This is why I believe that the most 
important part of the face-to-face meeting agendas are the open mics. 
Any can have a say and the words are recorded into archived material. 
It is not a monopoly.

ARIN's job is not limited to getting it's members converted to IPv6. 
ARIN's job is to make sure that the global investment to date in a 
scalable, end-to-end data communications grid is sustained into the 
future.  ARIN is not to promote IPv6, but that is the most workable 
solution to the greater goal.  As part of that, ARIN (staff)'s job is 
to get the word out as widely as possible.

What's the cost of not having a global network?  Think of how costs 
have gone down as commerce on the Internet has increased - for 
services that have existed before the Internet came around.  Think 
about the rise in the standard of living that has come about via the 
innovations in services that have come from the Internet and IP 
technologies.

Breakthrough in administration of address space?  That's not the 
goal, but then again, administering IPv6 is going to be much easier 
than IPv4.  From the point of view of ARIN and for LIR's and for 
ISP's.
-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Think glocally.  Act confused.
_______________________________________________
ARIN-Discuss
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN 
Discussion
Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
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From wsantiago at prtcmail.prtc.net  Fri Nov  2 15:40:39 2007
From: wsantiago at prtcmail.prtc.net (Willie Santiago)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:40:39 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Fw:  ARIN presence at VON
Message-ID: <OFF4CF8318.B007A8B0-ON04257387.006C0D44-04257387.006C27E9@prtcmail.prtc.net>

Hi


Julio


I copied you. Because you are starting that Admin POC soon.


Atentamente
Sr. Willie E. Santiago Rivera
Supervisor Redes Avanzadas e Internet
Puerto Rico Telephone Company
Tel?fonos 787-749-3315 X-2226 787-453-4972 Celular
wsantiago at prtcmail.prtc.net   wesr at prtc.net
----- Forwarded by Willie Santiago/ITS/PRTC on 11/02/2007 03:40 PM -----

Edward Lewis <Ed.Lewis at neustar.biz> 
Sent by: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
11/02/2007 01:58 PM

To
arin-discuss at arin.net
cc
ed.lewis at neustar.biz
Subject
[arin-discuss] ARIN presence at VON






I want to voice support for ARIN staff's decision to have a presence 
at VON.  It shows that ARIN's staff is well aware of the world beyond 
the "traditional" public Internet, that being the RIR's, IETF, ISOC, 
ICANN, *NOG's (NANOG here) and such meetings.

I wouldn't be surprised if ARIN staff were to consider attending 
other events such as GSMA, W3C, OASIS, to name just a few, plus 
ITU-related events, etc.  The benefit to the ARIN community is that 
this is one way to broaden the spectrum of voices in the bottom-up 
process we have fostered, one way to prevent ARIN from being 
"controlled" by any one bloc of interests.

Recognizing that as much as ARIN is an Internet Organization it is 
also a Registry.  I wouldn't be surprised if the staff were to feel 
that interaction with registries of other kinds would strengthen ARIN.
-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468
NeuStar

Think glocally.  Act confused.
_______________________________________________
ARIN-Discuss
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN 
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From wsantiago at prtcmail.prtc.net  Fri Nov  2 15:42:27 2007
From: wsantiago at prtcmail.prtc.net (Willie Santiago)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:42:27 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Fw:  ARIN Travel
Message-ID: <OFBECD6B22.163E2755-ON04257387.006C1F85-04257387.006C5216@prtcmail.prtc.net>

Hi


Julio


I copied you. Because you are starting that Admin POC soon.


Atentamente
Sr. Willie E. Santiago Rivera
Supervisor Redes Avanzadas e Internet
Puerto Rico Telephone Company
Tel?fonos 787-749-3315 X-2226 787-453-4972 Celular
wsantiago at prtcmail.prtc.net   wesr at prtc.net
----- Forwarded by Willie Santiago/ITS/PRTC on 11/02/2007 03:41 PM -----

"Bill Darte" <BillD at cait.wustl.edu> 
Sent by: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
11/02/2007 03:25 PM

To
"G.Hiscott" <ghiscott at keyconnect.com>, <arin-discuss at arin.net>
cc

Subject
Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel






And...I forgot to mention....
ARIN provides a uniques service related to unique numbers and its role 
suggests limited overlap.  It is not close to being a monopoly in any 
significant economic sense of the term.
bd


-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net on behalf of G.Hiscott
Sent: Fri 11/2/2007 1:14 PM
To: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel

I agree with Dean Anderson regarding his point about ARIN travel.

It often, in my opinion, seems pointless and as much could be
accomplished with teleconferencing or videoconferencing.

We are supposed to be an example of the new way of communicating yet
ARIN is still motivating people to fly to far off places and spend
resources above and beyond what is needed to confer.

The outreach is a joke, in my opinion.  They don't need to sell or
peddle address space.  Every college kid receiving a diploma today knows
about the net and can find out how to get address space quite easily
through Google.

Regarding the rebuttal: It strengthens ARIN

How does it strengthen ARIN?  ARIN is a form of a monopoly.  It has a
charge to administrate address space.  Nobody can compete.  Everybody
who wants to participate can participate.  It is established.

What do you mean by the word "Strengthen" -  Does that mean it will help
arin to get members converted to IPV6 faster ?  Will it reduce their
costs in some way ?  Will it help them with a breakthrough development
in administrating address space?  Yeah, right.



GJH


_______________________________________________
ARIN-Discuss
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN 
Discussion
Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
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From jradel at vantage.com  Fri Nov  2 16:06:19 2007
From: jradel at vantage.com (Jon Radel)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 16:06:19 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
In-Reply-To: <EACF8B735E9CBA4B8BAF9E4165D030871CBA16@ex1.cait.wustl.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>	<472B6922.7040609@keyconnect.com>
	<EACF8B735E9CBA4B8BAF9E4165D030871CBA16@ex1.cait.wustl.edu>
Message-ID: <472B833B.9060708@vantage.com>


I know about IPv6 and am starting to get a touch nervous about the
impact of the increasing difficulty in obtaining IPv4 addresses on
future expansion plans.

My management team is pretty much oblivious and, when they think about
it at all, assume ARIN will cough up all the addresses we need when we
need them, forever, despite my attempts to disabuse them of this notion.

My transit providers...well, one allows as to how they're doing some of
that IPv6 stuff in Europe and will be ready to talk to me 2nd Q 2008
here in the U.S., and the other appears to be stonewalling me,
presumably in the hopes that I'll stop asking awkward questions.  I
suspect you'd all recognize both of their names, as they're pretty big
players.

I'm lucky if the freshly minted "network engineers" they hire around
here can be counted on to reliably manipulate IPv4; expecting them to
show up with a firm grasp of what an IPv6 transition entails, oh, how I
wish....

And statements about how my softswitch will obviously just work with
IPv6 once it's running on a machine with an IPv6 stack leave me somewhat
bemused.

So frankly, I'm all for ARIN taking some of my management team's money
and using it for outreach at VON to my managers (though I think my
president skipped VON this year) and key people at my VOIP equipment
vendors.  The more official sources who go around waving their hands and
gently calling everyone's attention to the looming changes, the more
likely I'm to be listened to when I present a plan.  The more likely my
vendors will say something more useful than, "Huh?" when I ask which
version will support provisioning IPv6 addresses into the call routing
tables.  The less likely my 2009 and 2010 will be painful years.

Jon Radel
Senior Director of Engineering
Vantage Communications
p: 267-756-1014
f: 202-742-5661
e: jradel at vantage.com

"When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in
numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it,
when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and
unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have
scarcely, in your thoughts, advanced to the state of science, whatever the matter may be." ~Lord Kelvin



Bill Darte wrote:
>
> If ARIN were to restrict its outreach through telconf meetings there
> would be howl about catering to only techies and those with such
> resources.  ARIN travels about the service area precisely so that many
> can attend who cannot fly off to expensive places.
>
> Outreach is not a joke...it's hard to gain mindshare of all those who
> need let alone those who should know of the v4 and v6 issues.  If you
> have more suggestions on how to actually reach and inform more
> audiences, your input is welcome.
>
> I teach at a premier university and while you're right, students know
> of the internet and use it, but its remarkable how little they know 
> of how it works...even when the subject being taught involves these
> protocols..and those are graduate students and technologists from
> prestigious companies....
>
> Bill Darte
> ARIN AC
> Washington University in St. Louis
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net on behalf of G.Hiscott
> Sent: Fri 11/2/2007 1:14 PM
> To: arin-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
>
> I agree with Dean Anderson regarding his point about ARIN travel.
>
> It often, in my opinion, seems pointless and as much could be
> accomplished with teleconferencing or videoconferencing.
>
> We are supposed to be an example of the new way of communicating yet
> ARIN is still motivating people to fly to far off places and spend
> resources above and beyond what is needed to confer.
>
> The outreach is a joke, in my opinion.  They don't need to sell or
> peddle address space.  Every college kid receiving a diploma today knows
> about the net and can find out how to get address space quite easily
> through Google.
>
> Regarding the rebuttal: It strengthens ARIN
>
> How does it strengthen ARIN?  ARIN is a form of a monopoly.  It has a
> charge to administrate address space.  Nobody can compete.  Everybody
> who wants to participate can participate.  It is established.
>
> What do you mean by the word "Strengthen" -  Does that mean it will help
> arin to get members converted to IPV6 faster ?  Will it reduce their
> costs in some way ?  Will it help them with a breakthrough development
> in administrating address space?  Yeah, right.
>
>
>
> GJH
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-Discuss
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
> Discussion
> Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the
> ARIN Member
> Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>


From tedm at ipinc.net  Fri Nov  2 16:14:00 2007
From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:14:00 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
In-Reply-To: <86hck47a0a.fsf@seastrom.com>
Message-ID: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOAEHAHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>



>-----Original Message-----
>From: Robert E. Seastrom [mailto:rs at seastrom.com]
>Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:55 AM
>To: Ted Mittelstaedt
>Cc: John Curran; G.Hiscott; arin-discuss at arin.net
>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
>
>
>
>"Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm at ipinc.net> writes:
>
>> I actually think that right now ARIN should be working more on
>> visiting shows that the major networks would have staff attending.
>> There are still a great many transit providers out there who
>> are not routing IPv6 at the current time.  There is no point in
>> getting the customer base stirred up and demanding IPv6 when
>> it's not available from their network provider, they will just
>> lose interest in it.
>
>Actually, it is quite the opposite.  Providers who survived the bubble
>bursting have learned their lesson about the "if you build it they
>will come" mentality; they're only setting up network resources in
>direct response to customer demands.

I figured someone would say that.

I have to disagree on this.  We have had only 1 customer ask about
IPv6 and that was 2 years ago, and the guy was a techie on a home
DSL line.

Yet I have just finished going through channels with our feeds to
get an IPv6 adoption plan into place.  One of them - Time Warner
Telecom - I just talked to the network guy in charge of this today.
They are planning on going live 3rd quarter 2008 - in direct response
to the GSA thing.  The guy told me he gets about 1 query a month from
an ISP regarding IPv6 and he's in charge of it for the entire TWT
global network.

TW Telecom is probably very representative of the midlevel transit
providers.  They don't do a lot of government work but it's easier
to CYA by just getting IPv6 running then you don't have to deal
with some saleperson somewhere in the company who gets hamstrung on
a bid that is somehow tied to a GSA contract.  I would imagine that
a lot of the other transit ASs are starting to look into this
issue for the same reasons.  This is the group that ARIN needs to
be pushing.  The retail ISP's who are the next rung down in the
chain are going to need outreach too - but I think it's still too
early for that.  Give it until 2009.  The midlevel transit providers
have plenty of reasons other than GSA contracts that appeal to their
self-interest to get them motivated to get plugged in.

Ted


From Lee.Howard at stanleyassociates.com  Fri Nov  2 16:34:37 2007
From: Lee.Howard at stanleyassociates.com (Howard, W. Lee)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:34:37 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
In-Reply-To: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOAEHAHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <369EB04A0951824ABE7D8BAC67AF9BB4077DD20E@CL-S-EX-1.stanleyassociates.com>

 
> The retail ISP's who are the next rung down in the chain are 
> going to need outreach too - but I think it's still too early 
> for that.  Give it until 2009.  The midlevel transit 
> providers have plenty of reasons other than GSA contracts 
> that appeal to their self-interest to get them motivated to 
> get plugged in.

I probably misunderstand you.  You suggest that small and
midsized ISPs may wait until mid-2009 to start thinking
about IPv6?

Lee


From rs at seastrom.com  Fri Nov  2 16:50:37 2007
From: rs at seastrom.com (Robert E. Seastrom)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 16:50:37 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
In-Reply-To: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOAEHAHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net> (Ted Mittelstaedt's
	message of "Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:14:00 -0700")
References: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOAEHAHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <86sl3o5q3m.fsf@seastrom.com>


"Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm at ipinc.net> writes:

>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Robert E. Seastrom [mailto:rs at seastrom.com]
>>Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:55 AM
>>To: Ted Mittelstaedt
>>Cc: John Curran; G.Hiscott; arin-discuss at arin.net
>>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
>>
>>
>>
>>"Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm at ipinc.net> writes:
>>
>>> I actually think that right now ARIN should be working more on
>>> visiting shows that the major networks would have staff attending.
>>> There are still a great many transit providers out there who
>>> are not routing IPv6 at the current time.  There is no point in
>>> getting the customer base stirred up and demanding IPv6 when
>>> it's not available from their network provider, they will just
>>> lose interest in it.
>>
>>Actually, it is quite the opposite.  Providers who survived the bubble
>>bursting have learned their lesson about the "if you build it they
>>will come" mentality; they're only setting up network resources in
>>direct response to customer demands.
>
> I figured someone would say that.
>
> I have to disagree on this.  We have had only 1 customer ask about
> IPv6 and that was 2 years ago, and the guy was a techie on a home
> DSL line.
>
> Yet I have just finished going through channels with our feeds to
> get an IPv6 adoption plan into place. 

It seems that ARIN's outreach to-date (meetings, ppml) has worked in
your case, and it no doubt helps that you're running an ISP that is
small enough to have no capex issues with making this happen (I enjoy
a similar situation with the micro-isp I'm running for my personal
colo, so I can dig it).  Much bigger issue running a regional or
national backbone.

> One of them - Time Warner
> Telecom - I just talked to the network guy in charge of this today.
> They are planning on going live 3rd quarter 2008 - in direct response
> to the GSA thing.  The guy told me he gets about 1 query a month from
> an ISP regarding IPv6 and he's in charge of it for the entire TWT
> global network.

One guy in charge of it for a whole network the size of TWT sounds
about right.  They will put more resources behind it when appropriate
in response to customer demand (see above).  I would say that "ipv6
one man band" is likely similar in many if not most continental scale
networks at this juncture.

> TW Telecom is probably very representative of the midlevel transit
> providers.  They don't do a lot of government work but it's easier
> to CYA by just getting IPv6 running then you don't have to deal
> with some saleperson somewhere in the company who gets hamstrung on
> a bid that is somehow tied to a GSA contract.  I would imagine that
> a lot of the other transit ASs are starting to look into this
> issue for the same reasons.  This is the group that ARIN needs to
> be pushing.

On the contrary, there is no need for ARIN to be pushing them if they
are already doing this on their own, on a schedule which they can
justify.  Having ARIN do outreach is not going to result in more
FTEs...  but having more customer requests for turnups than the sole
practitioner can handle sure will!

> The retail ISP's who are the next rung down in the
> chain are going to need outreach too - but I think it's still too
> early for that.  Give it until 2009.  The midlevel transit providers
> have plenty of reasons other than GSA contracts that appeal to their
> self-interest to get them motivated to get plugged in.

If you have any suggestions or recommendations for venues in which
this could occur, please make yourself heard - I'm sure ARIN staff
would welcome more input in this arena (and hey, nobody will *ever*
accuse a trip to Portland of being a "junket"!)

                                        ---Rob




From dean at av8.net  Fri Nov  2 17:17:28 2007
From: dean at av8.net (Dean Anderson)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:17:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <p06240802c3511338e8c9@[192.168.8.68]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021600060.7124-100000@sr22.av8.net>

On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, John Curran wrote:

> At 1:39 PM -0400 11/2/07, Dean Anderson wrote:
> >VOIP products use protocols (TCP and UDP) that work over either IPv4 or
> >IPv6, so there is nothing that VOIP developers really need to do with
> >respect to ARIN.  The developers will follow VOIP protocol standards
> >requested by customers
> 
> Interesting.   I wonder how the customers will come to ask for IPv6
> support, if they are unaware of the upcoming issue?

Why should they be aware of the issue?  End users don't care about the
underlying transport. My parents have email. They understand Outlook.
They don't know about IPv4. Why would they care about IPv6? VOIP users
are no different.  They don't care about transport. They care about
VOIP.  It could be VO<anything>.

> >VOIP products that are implemented on platforms that support IPv6 and
> >are deployed on networks that support IPv6, just work.
> 
> Semantically, there's not a lot of meaning to the above, as it's agreed
> that products that support IPv6 and are deployed on IPv6 actually do
> support IPv6.  

Indeed, you deleted the part with the most meaning: the part where, if
the platforms don't support IPv6 and the networks don't support IPv6,
then there is nothing the VOIP vendors can do. VOIP vendors aren't in a
position to influence IPv6. There is no reason to think they can. Its
just a junket.


> I spoke at the VON Theatre on this issue, and we had an active
> audience of service providers with questions about all aspects of the
> transition. 

That's one talk. By one person---justifying just one plane ticket and
one night of hotel, and no booth.

> In fact, the response was large enough that Pulvermedia has asked that
> we get together with them and provide additional information (on IPv4
> depletion and IPv6) so that they can do outreach it via their various
> channels.  Pulver does seem to know something about VoIP, so forgive
> me if I'm more likely to listen to them and the thankful attendees
> regarding the useful of ARIN's participation at VON.

But in fact, you also paid for a booth, so it seems Pulvermedia is
highly motivated to have you spend more money, and do more "outreach".  
That doesn't justify ARIN spending more. Jeff Pulver's interest here
doesn't seem to be technical. A staffed booth is not requirement to be
an invited speaker. Or is it?

		--Dean

-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
617 344 9000   




From dean at av8.net  Fri Nov  2 17:22:47 2007
From: dean at av8.net (Dean Anderson)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:22:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOCEGOHEAA.support@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021617560.7124-100000@sr22.av8.net>

On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, Internet Partners, Inc. Tech Support wrote:
> 
> Dean, I agreed with you in general on VON but the horse is dead.
> Have you ever considered the possibility that ARIN Management simply
> doesen't know what shows to go to?

This isn't a one-time mistake. It appears to be a $400,000+ mistake.

OSF got in trouble on a similar issue in 1988, before I started. They
had a member meeting in Monte Carlo, and paid to have most of the staff
go to Monte Carlo.  They spent around $500,000.  It was a real blast, I
heard.  Just after I started, the VP I worked for was fired as a result
of the boondoggle.

A $400,000+ blunder should be investigated, and the manager(s)  
responsible should be fired.  We call that accountability. Membership 
organizations are accountable to the membership.

		--Dean

-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
617 344 9000   




From tedm at ipinc.net  Fri Nov  2 18:04:59 2007
From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:04:59 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021617560.7124-100000@sr22.av8.net>
Message-ID: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOIEHAHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>



>-----Original Message-----
>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Dean Anderson
>Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 2:23 PM
>To: Internet Partners, Inc. Tech Support
>Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
>
>
>On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, Internet Partners, Inc. Tech Support wrote:
>> 
>> Dean, I agreed with you in general on VON but the horse is dead.
>> Have you ever considered the possibility that ARIN Management simply
>> doesen't know what shows to go to?
>
>This isn't a one-time mistake. It appears to be a $400,000+ mistake.

It couldn't have cost $400,000 to fly 2 guys from CA to Boston to host
a booth at VON.  You have to be kidding, there has to be something else
that the line item is paying for.

Monte Carlo - that I would understand!

Ted


From THutchison at corp.untd.com  Fri Nov  2 18:11:28 2007
From: THutchison at corp.untd.com (Hutchison, Tine)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:11:28 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021617560.7124-100000@sr22.av8.net>
References: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOCEGOHEAA.support@ipinc.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021617560.7124-100000@sr22.av8.net>
Message-ID: <8C4A641905D89E4B87956814FE53C46201232283@LAXEVS01.lax.corp.int.untd.com>

How do you come to the conclusion that attendance at VON is a $400k
mistake?  You're certainly implying that since you compare it to a
single event held in Monte Carlo.

Looking at ARIN's books, they had working capital of $20,413,323 at
year-end 2006.  Last year, they added over $3,000,000 to retained
earnings.  It looks like they're making the decision that having more
than 2 years of operating expenses in the bank is enough and they're
making an effort to reduce their additions to retained earnings going
forward by increasing their outreach and spending in other areas
relevant to their mission as outlined in the articles of incorporation
(http://www.arin.net/about_us/corp_docs/artic_incorp.html).

Tine  

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Dean Anderson
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 2:23 PM
To: Internet Partners, Inc. Tech Support
Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA

On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, Internet Partners, Inc. Tech Support wrote:
> 
> Dean, I agreed with you in general on VON but the horse is dead.
> Have you ever considered the possibility that ARIN Management simply 
> doesen't know what shows to go to?

This isn't a one-time mistake. It appears to be a $400,000+ mistake.

OSF got in trouble on a similar issue in 1988, before I started. They
had a member meeting in Monte Carlo, and paid to have most of the staff
go to Monte Carlo.  They spent around $500,000.  It was a real blast, I
heard.  Just after I started, the VP I worked for was fired as a result
of the boondoggle.

A $400,000+ blunder should be investigated, and the manager(s)
responsible should be fired.  We call that accountability. Membership
organizations are accountable to the membership.

		--Dean

-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
617 344 9000   


_______________________________________________
ARIN-Discuss
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From ghiscott at keyconnect.com  Fri Nov  2 18:34:22 2007
From: ghiscott at keyconnect.com (G.Hiscott)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 15:34:22 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
In-Reply-To: <EACF8B735E9CBA4B8BAF9E4165D030871CBA16@ex1.cait.wustl.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>
	<472B6922.7040609@keyconnect.com>
	<EACF8B735E9CBA4B8BAF9E4165D030871CBA16@ex1.cait.wustl.edu>
Message-ID: <472BA5EE.6070407@keyconnect.com>

The fact that you are part of a large organization explains your viewpoint.


I am from a small organization.  It is a big deal for me to send 
somebody to any of these meetings.  I much prefer to using technology to 
aid in participation than to the way ARIN does it now.

ARIN and the members should not ignore the above.  Notice how the folks 
from large orgs. tend to like the status quo and people who are part of 
smaller organizations tend to not like it.  Did ya notice that ??

I think ARIN should be working on the SPAM problem.  Hunt down the 
egregious spammers and disable their blocks.  Collaborate with the other 
number managers to reach to anywhere the problem is.

Publish or collect online course ware for how the numbering system works.

IP address space is like gasoline.  If you need it then you know that 
you need it and you can find out how to get it.  It is not rocket 
science nor should it be required curriculum at university.

ARIN should work to reduce costs so that the membership costs and 
related fees are lower.

They don't need to fly around the service area to meet with other the 
membership.  This is wasteful.

GJH



Bill Darte wrote:
> If ARIN were to restrict its outreach through telconf meetings there 
> would be howl about catering to only techies and those with such 
> resources.  ARIN travels about the service area precisely so that many 
> can attend who cannot fly off to expensive places.
> 
> Outreach is not a joke...it's hard to gain mindshare of all those who 
> need let alone those who should know of the v4 and v6 issues.  If you 
> have more suggestions on how to actually reach and inform more 
> audiences, your input is welcome.
> 
> I teach at a premier university and while you're right, students know of 
> the internet and use it, but its remarkable how little they know  of how 
> it works...even when the subject being taught involves these 
> protocols..and those are graduate students and technologists from 
> prestigious companies....
> 
> Bill Darte
> ARIN AC
> Washington University in St. Louis
>


From ghiscott at keyconnect.com  Fri Nov  2 18:52:14 2007
From: ghiscott at keyconnect.com (G.Hiscott)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 15:52:14 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
In-Reply-To: <a06240804c3511ea0115c@[172.27.174.161]>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>
	<472B6922.7040609@keyconnect.com>
	<a06240804c3511ea0115c@[172.27.174.161]>
Message-ID: <472BAA1E.9090600@keyconnect.com>

Edward Lewis wrote:
> At 11:14 -0700 11/2/07, G.Hiscott wrote:
> 

> 
> ARIN is not to dominate the discussion.  ARIN is not the source of 
> influence.    If ARIN is unduly influenced by one corner of the 
> audience, it will fail its mission.  Ultimately it would wither and 
> fade.  If ARIN is unbalanced, shows bias, it is malfunctioning.  If the 
> situation is noticed and remains unfixed, ARIN should be dissolved.
> 
> The power of ARIN is not from it's position of dominance but via the 
> open, transparent, bottom-up process that those of us who have been 
> participating are fostering.  This is why I believe that the most 
> important part of the face-to-face meeting agendas are the open mics. 
> Any can have a say and the words are recorded into archived material. It 
> is not a monopoly.


Monopoly is not the right word.  It is a single source for IP address 
space in North America.  If an entity needs to have a dedicated block of 
IP address space, said entity is forced to work with ARIN to obtain the 
address space.

The fact is: Large communications companies can easily afford to pay the 
costs to maintain representation while the smaller companies struggle to 
keep a voice "at the open mic.".  This fact should be considered when 
ARIN thinks about how to grow.

The way they are doing it now is not appreciated by me or my 
organization and I think I can speak for the other small operations out 
there.


GJH


From woody at pch.net  Fri Nov  2 18:58:16 2007
From: woody at pch.net (Bill Woodcock)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 14:58:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
In-Reply-To: <472BAA1E.9090600@keyconnect.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>
	<472B6922.7040609@keyconnect.com>
	<a06240804c3511ea0115c@[172.27.174.161]>
	<472BAA1E.9090600@keyconnect.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.61.0711021455050.18850@paixhost.pch.net>

      On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, G.Hiscott wrote:
    > Large communications companies can easily afford to pay the 
    > costs to maintain representation while the smaller companies struggle to 
    > keep a voice "at the open mic."  The way they are doing it now is 
    > not appreciated by me and I think I speak for the other small operations.

If you don't like the idea of ARIN using large operators' money to try to 
reach small operators at other meetings they may already be attending, 
what form of outreach would you suggest as a more effective way to 
contact those small operators and get their opinions?

                                -Bill



From tedm at ipinc.net  Fri Nov  2 19:00:37 2007
From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:00:37 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
In-Reply-To: <369EB04A0951824ABE7D8BAC67AF9BB4077DD20E@CL-S-EX-1.stanleyassociates.com>
Message-ID: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOAEHBHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>



>-----Original Message-----
>From: Howard, W. Lee [mailto:Lee.Howard at stanleyassociates.com]
>Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:35 PM
>To: Ted Mittelstaedt; Robert E. Seastrom
>Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
>Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
>
>
> 
>> The retail ISP's who are the next rung down in the chain are 
>> going to need outreach too - but I think it's still too early 
>> for that.  Give it until 2009.  The midlevel transit 
>> providers have plenty of reasons other than GSA contracts 
>> that appeal to their self-interest to get them motivated to 
>> get plugged in.
>
>I probably misunderstand you.  You suggest that small and
>midsized ISPs may wait until mid-2009 to start thinking
>about IPv6?
>

I'm suggesting that most of them aren't going to be able to do
anything other than tunnel to an IPv6 tunnel provider until 2009
or thereabouts, so I am guessing most of them won't think about it.

However that shouldn't be a problem with a smaller ISP, as there's
a lot less work to do to get compliant.

Ted




From dlw+arin at tellme.com  Fri Nov  2 19:00:40 2007
From: dlw+arin at tellme.com (David Williamson)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:00:40 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
In-Reply-To: <472BAA1E.9090600@keyconnect.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>
	<472B6922.7040609@keyconnect.com>
	<a06240804c3511ea0115c@[172.27.174.161]>
	<472BAA1E.9090600@keyconnect.com>
Message-ID: <20071102230040.GS26738@shell01.cell.sv2.tellme.com>

Since you seem deeply dissatisfied, do you mind if I ask if you (or
your organization's designated member representative) vote in the
recent election?  I'll note that the winners in the BoT and AC
elections needed a mere 50-ish votes.  That implies that very few total
votes were cast.

If you didn't vote, you missed your chance to affect actual change.

-David


On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 03:52:14PM -0700, G.Hiscott wrote:
> Edward Lewis wrote:
> > At 11:14 -0700 11/2/07, G.Hiscott wrote:
> > 
> 
> > 
> > ARIN is not to dominate the discussion.  ARIN is not the source of 
> > influence.    If ARIN is unduly influenced by one corner of the 
> > audience, it will fail its mission.  Ultimately it would wither and 
> > fade.  If ARIN is unbalanced, shows bias, it is malfunctioning.  If the 
> > situation is noticed and remains unfixed, ARIN should be dissolved.
> > 
> > The power of ARIN is not from it's position of dominance but via the 
> > open, transparent, bottom-up process that those of us who have been 
> > participating are fostering.  This is why I believe that the most 
> > important part of the face-to-face meeting agendas are the open mics. 
> > Any can have a say and the words are recorded into archived material. It 
> > is not a monopoly.
> 
> 
> Monopoly is not the right word.  It is a single source for IP address 
> space in North America.  If an entity needs to have a dedicated block of 
> IP address space, said entity is forced to work with ARIN to obtain the 
> address space.
> 
> The fact is: Large communications companies can easily afford to pay the 
> costs to maintain representation while the smaller companies struggle to 
> keep a voice "at the open mic.".  This fact should be considered when 
> ARIN thinks about how to grow.
> 
> The way they are doing it now is not appreciated by me or my 
> organization and I think I can speak for the other small operations out 
> there.
> 
> 
> GJH
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-Discuss
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion
> Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member
> Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.


From owen at delong.com  Fri Nov  2 19:14:29 2007
From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:14:29 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
In-Reply-To: <472BA5EE.6070407@keyconnect.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>
	<472B6922.7040609@keyconnect.com>
	<EACF8B735E9CBA4B8BAF9E4165D030871CBA16@ex1.cait.wustl.edu>
	<472BA5EE.6070407@keyconnect.com>
Message-ID: <DE209CDC-CC7E-4D75-8566-99CA71C1C2F6@delong.com>


On Nov 2, 2007, at 3:34 PM, G.Hiscott wrote:

> The fact that you are part of a large organization explains your  
> viewpoint.
>
>
Not entirely, but, I agree, partially.

> I am from a small organization.  It is a big deal for me to send
> somebody to any of these meetings.  I much prefer to using  
> technology to
> aid in participation than to the way ARIN does it now.
>
I am also from a small organization.  I have been on both sides of the
equation, however.  I have worked in large and small organizations and
just about everything in between.

However, one thing which concerns me is that you speak of "The way
ARIN does it now" as if there were a single way used by ARIN.  The
reality is that ARIN uses a variety of tools.  The semi-annual public
policy and members meetings are merely one of many methods
used by ARIN to solicit input and gauge consensus of the community.

There is also the possibility to use technology and participate in the
meetings remotely. Additionally, mailing lists such as arin-discuss
and the PPML are used.  All of this input is reviewed and analyzed
by the AC in gauging community consensus on policies.

> ARIN and the members should not ignore the above.  Notice how the  
> folks
> from large orgs. tend to like the status quo and people who are part  
> of
> smaller organizations tend to not like it.  Did ya notice that ??
>
No, actually, I don't think that pattern holds as true as you claim.   
I do know
that among the attendees I talked to in ABQ, the majority were actually
not from particularly large organizations.  I also know that the  
makeup of
the AC is not dominated by large organizations.

I currently work for a very small startup.  If you read today's  
announcement
from ARIN, you will see that I was elected to serve a 3-year term on the
ARIN AC.  I don't think this is a sign that the status quo favors large
organizations.

> I think ARIN should be working on the SPAM problem.  Hunt down the
> egregious spammers and disable their blocks.  Collaborate with the  
> other
> number managers to reach to anywhere the problem is.

Noted.  However, I'd like to know what role you think ARIN has here.   
ARIN
does not control the routing of IP addresses.  ARIN has the ability to  
assign,
and, in some very limited cases, un-assign addresses.  ARIN doesn't  
manage
routers, so, they really don't have much of an ability to "disable  
their blocks".

I would like to see ARIN start taking a more proactive role in  
reclaiming
blocks which are not in use or which are being used in a manner which
is inconsistent with ARIN policy.  However, getting into defining SPAM
and attacking it at the IP assignment level is a much more involved
discussion.

If you feel you have a concrete idea for how to do this, then, I  
encourage
you to submit a policy proposal so that the community can review your
idea and act on it as appropriate.
>
>
> Publish or collect online course ware for how the numbering system  
> works.
>
ARIN is actually working on some aspects of this.  Specific suggestions
are always welcome, in my experience.

> IP address space is like gasoline.  If you need it then you know that
> you need it and you can find out how to get it.  It is not rocket
> science nor should it be required curriculum at university.
>
That's not entirely true.  First, everyone who uses gasoline seems to
know what gasoline is.  I know lots of people who use the internet
that have no idea what an IP address is or how to get one.

> ARIN should work to reduce costs so that the membership costs and
> related fees are lower.
>
What do you believe would be an appropriate annual membership fee?

> They don't need to fly around the service area to meet with other the
> membership.  This is wasteful.
>
I completely disagree.  While I agree that much can be accomplished
without traveling and that there are good applications of technology  
here,
in many cases, there is simply no substitute for giving an in-person
presentation and shaking hands, answering questions, and engaging
in the odd hallway discussion.

Like it or not, it is human nature to place more trust and be more
accepting of a presentation that is done face-to-face by a live
human being.

This is the nature of outreach and I think that ARIN has been doing
some excellent work in this area.  The increasing number of
organizations represented on PPML and ARIN-DISCUSS that
are end-users and smaller ISPs is an indication that what ARIN is
doing currently is, actually, working towards your stated goals.

Owen

> GJH
>
>
>
> Bill Darte wrote:
>> If ARIN were to restrict its outreach through telconf meetings there
>> would be howl about catering to only techies and those with such
>> resources.  ARIN travels about the service area precisely so that  
>> many
>> can attend who cannot fly off to expensive places.
>>
>> Outreach is not a joke...it's hard to gain mindshare of all those who
>> need let alone those who should know of the v4 and v6 issues.  If you
>> have more suggestions on how to actually reach and inform more
>> audiences, your input is welcome.
>>
>> I teach at a premier university and while you're right, students  
>> know of
>> the internet and use it, but its remarkable how little they know   
>> of how
>> it works...even when the subject being taught involves these
>> protocols..and those are graduate students and technologists from
>> prestigious companies....
>>
>> Bill Darte
>> ARIN AC
>> Washington University in St. Louis
>>
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-Discuss
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the  
> ARIN Discussion
> Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
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> Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.



From jradel at vantage.com  Fri Nov  2 19:32:59 2007
From: jradel at vantage.com (Jon Radel)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 19:32:59 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
In-Reply-To: <472BAA1E.9090600@keyconnect.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>	<472B6922.7040609@keyconnect.com>	<a06240804c3511ea0115c@[172.27.174.161]>
	<472BAA1E.9090600@keyconnect.com>
Message-ID: <472BB3AB.7080006@vantage.com>




G.Hiscott wrote:
>
> The way they are doing it now is not appreciated by me or my
> organization and I think I can speak for the other small operations out
> there.
>
>   
Not all of them.

--Jon Radel


From tedm at ipinc.net  Fri Nov  2 19:38:55 2007
From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 16:38:55 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
In-Reply-To: <86sl3o5q3m.fsf@seastrom.com>
Message-ID: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOKEHBHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>



>-----Original Message-----
>From: Robert E. Seastrom [mailto:rs at seastrom.com]
>Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 1:51 PM
>To: Ted Mittelstaedt
>Cc: John Curran; G.Hiscott; arin-discuss at arin.net
>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
>
>
>
>"Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm at ipinc.net> writes:
>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Robert E. Seastrom [mailto:rs at seastrom.com]
>>>Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:55 AM
>>>To: Ted Mittelstaedt
>>>Cc: John Curran; G.Hiscott; arin-discuss at arin.net
>>>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm at ipinc.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> I actually think that right now ARIN should be working more on
>>>> visiting shows that the major networks would have staff attending.
>>>> There are still a great many transit providers out there who
>>>> are not routing IPv6 at the current time.  There is no point in
>>>> getting the customer base stirred up and demanding IPv6 when
>>>> it's not available from their network provider, they will just
>>>> lose interest in it.
>>>
>>>Actually, it is quite the opposite.  Providers who survived the bubble
>>>bursting have learned their lesson about the "if you build it they
>>>will come" mentality; they're only setting up network resources in
>>>direct response to customer demands.
>>
>> I figured someone would say that.
>>
>> I have to disagree on this.  We have had only 1 customer ask about
>> IPv6 and that was 2 years ago, and the guy was a techie on a home
>> DSL line.
>>
>> Yet I have just finished going through channels with our feeds to
>> get an IPv6 adoption plan into place.
>
>It seems that ARIN's outreach to-date (meetings, ppml) has worked in
>your case, and it no doubt helps that you're running an ISP that is
>small enough to have no capex issues with making this happen (I enjoy
>a similar situation with the micro-isp I'm running for my personal
>colo, so I can dig it).  Much bigger issue running a regional or
>national backbone.
>

Not really.  I was looking into IPv6 in 2002.  The problem was
twofold, however.  First we didn't have our own numbers and that was
a lot of work to renumber, in fact the very last device on the old
number set - the primary DNS server, which became unreachable a year
after we got numbers - I finally shut down 2 years after commencing
the renumber.  (we had internal systems that it was easier to just
let them peter off into nothing than to tear into their configs)
Secondly, none of the various feeds we have used over the years natively
routed IPv6.

But the most important thing, which I commented on, on this list about
8-9 months ago, was the IPv6 fees were only under a wavier.  Meaning
that as a waiver could always be lifted, we couldn't possibly justify
obtaining numbering that no customers were asking for, if there was a
chance that after getting it we would have to start paying for it.  Our
existing ARIN fees for IPv4 are not backbreaking - but they are not
chicken feed either.

The new policy - where an org merely pays the larger of the 2 bills,
IPv4 or IPv6 - which the ARIN board put into place sometime this summer,
was the key that was needed to get the IPv6 project into the skunkworks.

Like most admins I find it far easier to get lump sums approved than
to get reocurring expenditures approved.  Basically, any reocurring
expenditure
must be justified as bringing in reocurring revenue.  ISPs as you well know
are masters of getting people locked into reocurring payments - we know
well how much money we can make by doing this - and as a result, most
ISP's try their darndest to have as few reocurring payments themselves.

it took nearly has
always been that none of our feeds that we have used over the years

>> One of them - Time Warner
>> Telecom - I just talked to the network guy in charge of this today.
>> They are planning on going live 3rd quarter 2008 - in direct response
>> to the GSA thing.  The guy told me he gets about 1 query a month from
>> an ISP regarding IPv6 and he's in charge of it for the entire TWT
>> global network.
>
>One guy in charge of it for a whole network the size of TWT sounds
>about right.  They will put more resources behind it when appropriate
>in response to customer demand (see above).  I would say that "ipv6
>one man band" is likely similar in many if not most continental scale
>networks at this juncture.
>
>> TW Telecom is probably very representative of the midlevel transit
>> providers.  They don't do a lot of government work but it's easier
>> to CYA by just getting IPv6 running then you don't have to deal
>> with some saleperson somewhere in the company who gets hamstrung on
>> a bid that is somehow tied to a GSA contract.  I would imagine that
>> a lot of the other transit ASs are starting to look into this
>> issue for the same reasons.  This is the group that ARIN needs to
>> be pushing.
>
>On the contrary, there is no need for ARIN to be pushing them

I didn't say pushing them, I said pushing "that group"  TW is I think
in a minority in that group.  There needs to be an effort to get ALL
midlevel transit ASs to get IPv6 routing going in 2008, because
they will need to be online by Q1 2009 so that an effort to get all
the non-transit end-node AS's online can be made then so that all of
them are going by the 2010 deadline AKA expected end of IPv4 assignments.

The retail ISPs out there that are single-homed and don't have their
own numbering will have no choice but to request IPv6 from their
upstream - and assuming current trends hold and IPv4 runs out in 2011,
for those retail ISPs to continue to grow after 2011 means they must
have routing access to IPv6 as it will be very unlikely that their
feed will have any IPv4 for them.  SO, clearly their feeds - the
midsized transit AS's I'm talking about - must have their act together
with IPv6 pre-IPv4 runout.  Meaning, pre-IPv6 significant-demand.

>
>If you have any suggestions or recommendations for venues in which
>this could occur, please make yourself heard - I'm sure ARIN staff
>would welcome more input in this arena (and hey, nobody will *ever*
>accuse a trip to Portland of being a "junket"!)

In 2003, Transworld Snowboarding magazine readers and editors ranked
Mount Bachelor the fourth best snowboarding resort in North America.
It's also the site of several USSA competitions each year.

Some of the best powder snow skiing in the country is located at
Mt. Bachelor - or so I've been told.  I don't ski myself.  Trust me,
there's just as much junk for people to waste their money on in
OR as anywhere else.

Ted



From rs at seastrom.com  Fri Nov  2 20:07:07 2007
From: rs at seastrom.com (Robert E. Seastrom)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 20:07:07 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
In-Reply-To: <472BB3AB.7080006@vantage.com> (Jon Radel's message of "Fri,
	02 Nov 2007 19:32:59 -0400")
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>
	<472B6922.7040609@keyconnect.com>
	<a06240804c3511ea0115c@[172.27.174.161]>
	<472BAA1E.9090600@keyconnect.com> <472BB3AB.7080006@vantage.com>
Message-ID: <86odecgpjo.fsf@seastrom.com>


Jon Radel <jradel at vantage.com> writes:

> G.Hiscott wrote:
>>
>> The way they are doing it now is not appreciated by me or my
>> organization and I think I can speak for the other small operations out
>> there.
>>   
> Not all of them.

agreed.  :)

                                        ---rob



From captain at netidea.com  Sat Nov  3 02:08:48 2007
From: captain at netidea.com (Kirk Ismay)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 23:08:48 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
In-Reply-To: <472BB3AB.7080006@vantage.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>	<472B6922.7040609@keyconnect.com>	<a06240804c3511ea0115c@[172.27.174.161]>	<472BAA1E.9090600@keyconnect.com>
	<472BB3AB.7080006@vantage.com>
Message-ID: <472C1070.9030205@netidea.com>

Jon Radel wrote:
>
> G.Hiscott wrote:
>   
>> The way they are doing it now is not appreciated by me or my
>> organization and I think I can speak for the other small operations out
>> there.
>>
>>   
>>     
> Not all of them.
>
>   
Speaking from the perspective of another small organization, I'll second 
that. 

I support ARIN having a physical presence to perform IPv6 outreach, 
especially where it concerns technologies like VOIP or anything else 
that could end up being the 'next big thing' that eats the rest of IPv4.

Sincerely, Kirk Ismay
System Administrator

-- 
Net Idea
201-625 Front Street Nelson, BC V1L 4B6
P:250-352-3512 | F:250-352-9780 | TF:1-888-352-3512

Check out our brand new website! www.netidea.com



From mstotyn at enmax.com  Mon Nov  5 11:43:46 2007
From: mstotyn at enmax.com (Stotyn, Mel)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 09:43:46 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Travel
In-Reply-To: <472C1070.9030205@netidea.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711021318550.7156-100000@citation2.av8.net>	<472B6922.7040609@keyconnect.com>	<a06240804c3511ea0115c@[172.27.174.161]>	<472BAA1E.9090600@keyconnect.com><472BB3AB.7080006@vantage.com>
	<472C1070.9030205@netidea.com>
Message-ID: <B283BC0E8A046743954EA39728B791D702EC978A@bc5mail02>


Jon Radel wrote:
>
> G.Hiscott wrote:
>   
>> The way they are doing it now is not appreciated by me or my 
>> organization and I think I can speak for the other small operations 
>> out there.
>>
>>   
>>     
> Not all of them.
>
>   
Speaking from the perspective of another small organization, I'll second
that. 

I support ARIN having a physical presence to perform IPv6 outreach,
especially where it concerns technologies like VOIP or anything else
that could end up being the 'next big thing' that eats the rest of IPv4.

Sincerely, Kirk Ismay
System Administrator
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------

I'm not sure why G. Hiscott would think that he "can speak for the other
small operations out [here]". I don't see his name listed in either the
Board of Trustees or the Advisory Council for ARIN. They are the people
who actually speak for my small organization because I participated in
the elections and use the access points provided to me.

My small organization (with me concurring) didn't think that we could
afford the direct cost and the time for me to travel to Albuquerque, but
I spent some hours on the web feed. Thanks for that technological
outreach, but I also think that face-to-face outreach has a significant
qualitative difference in the consultative goals of the ARIN membership.

It seems likely that ARIN might speak more effectively for the companies
that participate more, and that those companies might have different
interests than my small operator company. Since we may choose to travel
to, and physically participate in, different conferences than the
somewhat arcane policy meetings; we welcome any chance to combine a
face-to-face meeting with a wizard (or even apprentice) of the arcana at
some other conference that seems more important to our business; however
much we also depend on IP resources.

Mel Stotyn 
Senior Operations Specialist 
ENMAX Envision Inc. 
mailto:mstotyn at enmax.com 
Phone: 403 514-3443

************************************************************************
This e-mail message is intended only for the person(s) named above and
may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the
person named or have not been authorized by them to access their mail,
please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail and any 
attachments without reading, saving, or forwarding.
************************************************************************


From dean at av8.net  Mon Nov  5 20:09:07 2007
From: dean at av8.net (Dean Anderson)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 20:09:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOIEHAHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711041807420.18749-100000@citation2.av8.net>

On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> >On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, Internet Partners, Inc. Tech Support wrote:
> >> 
> >> Dean, I agreed with you in general on VON but the horse is dead.
> >> Have you ever considered the possibility that ARIN Management simply
> >> doesen't know what shows to go to?
> >
> >This isn't a one-time mistake. It appears to be a $400,000+ mistake.
> 
> It couldn't have cost $400,000 to fly 2 guys from CA to Boston to host
> a booth at VON.  You have to be kidding, there has to be something else
> that the line item is paying for.

I guess I wasn't clear. One conference would be a one-time mistake.  
The one conference I cited was the one where I had some personal
experience to relate. But I understand they've been at VON several
times.  There are apparently other trips under the banner of
'educational outreach'. These add up to a $1.2 million dollar travel
item; approximately $400,000 more the prior year's travel expenses. If
they are all as educational as this VON conference, then none of them
are legitimate. The Nanog transfer was also asserted to be "educational
outreach".  These are not genuine efforts at education, but junkets. In
the case of Nanog, assistance to cronies of Board Members.

So, it seems that Board Members overlook ARIN employee junkets, and ARIN
staff overlook the unjustified transfers to Nanog and Board Member
cronies.  One scratches the other's back, both obtain benefits, and
Members lose.  This is what you hire managers to prevent, and why you
fire them when these things are uncovered.  Board Members also have
fiduciary duties; they are supposed to act in the interests of the
membership and ensure that the corporation employees carry out the
purposes (and only the purposes) of the corporation. The Board of
Directors are also supposed to have an arms-length supervisory
relationship with the management. Board members should not be doing
things that employees would ordinarily do.

We also have ARIN engaging in extortion of Legacys, as I described
previously. This relates to other similar activity, and to an ARIN Board
Member previously accused in Court of, among other things, extortion and
organized crime, for which a Temporary Restraining Order was issued.

Let me try to put some perspective on the issue with some background:


Who's who (abbreviated):
---------

Paul Vixie is an ARIN Board Member. 

Bill Woodcock is an ARIN Board Member and NANOG Program Committee
member.  

Bill Manning is an ARIN Board Member and a past NANOG Program Committee
member.  Manning has also helped Vixie/ISC avoid responsibility for
SORBS support.  http://www.iadl.org/bm/bill-manning-story.html This page
needs to be updated, Vixie has since moved SORBS to Dave Rand's
bungi.com network.

Rodney Joffe is a NANOG Program Committee member. Joffe is also the
founder of Whitehat.com a spam operation. Prior to founding Whitehat,
Joffe worked for American Computer Group, Mailorder.com, a junk postal
mail services company.  Vixie was (may still be--they've removed the
Board of Directors from the web site) a board member of Whitehat.  
Joffe currently works for NeuStar, a company that provides services to
VON.

Martin Hannigan. NANOG Email List Management Committee, ARIN AC member. 

Ed Lewis (NeuStar) supports ARIN booth at VON.  NeuStar provides
services to VON and has sponsored NANOG.

Keith Mitchell is a NANOG Program Committee member who works for Paul
Vixie on NANOG.

Chris Morrow, NANOG Program Committee. Recently appointed Chair of IETF 
GROW WG. The GROW WG is in charge of a draft promoting DNS Root Anycast, 
promoted by Vixie.

Dave Rand co-founded MAPS with Vixie. It seems the 'old MAPS gang' is
back together on SORBS.

Robert Seastrom is an ARIN AC member and a prominent Nanog member engaged
in "Nanog Futures". Seastrom's company (Cambridge Bandwidth Consortium)
is promoted by Paul Vixie at http://www.vix.com/personalcolo/, though
Seastrom appears to have moved on from there.
http://www.cambridge.bandwidth-consortium.us/

Dean Anderson is the President of the League for Programming Freedom,
and the owner of Av8 Internet, Inc, member of ARIN, member of ISOC. 



So we have three board members who have close interests in NANOG,
including one with previous TRO with very disturbing claims. And we have
a rather interesting circle of interests and cronies involving ARIN
Board Members and NANOG.  John Curran is also a participant in NANOG.





What is NANOG and What it is Doing? 
----------------------------------

Someone also asked me what Nanog is.  NANOG is "North American Network
Operators Group". It has a web page at http://www.nanog.org.  I have a
web page on the group at http://www.iadl.org/nanog/nanog-story.html

Nanog is a group of about 50 or so core members with several hundred
more transient members (people who post to the list or attend meetings
for a few years or less). It ostensibly claims to educate network
operations staff, but it is really a political or business operation
that just promotes the business interests of the core members.

Nanog has been involved in promoting the notion that network operators
can read customers email, suppressing anyone who disputed this notion
(e.g. myself).  This has been used to in spam operations.  Prominent
participants, Paul Vixie and Rodney Joffe et al, have run a spam
blacklist (MAPS, SORBS, Spamhaus) and also run a spam company called
Whitehat (www.whitehat.com).  So, they block their competition with
MAPS/SORBS, send spam from that isn't blocked, and through NANOG
encourage network operators to (illegally) read customer emails and
report on the activities of their competition.

Vixie and company basically just stole Sanford Wallace's business plan.  
Wallace was a well-know spammer in the late 90s, and also sold anti-spam
software.  Vixie represented himself as a 'radical' anti-spammers. For
example, Vixie wrote about spam that "the war won't be over until the
last spammer's head is stuck onto a spear at the city limits.". A very
extreme and brutal statement. Meanwhile, Vixie and prominent
anti-spammers John Levine and Ray Everett-Church were a board members of
privately held Whitehat.  Board members in privately held companies are
often the major investors, but I don't know for who owns Whitehat.

In 1997, Martin Hannigan, Hannigan advertised routes disrupting 
Wallace's network access. Whitehat was unaffected.

In the 1990s, Anderson disputed false claims on NANOG that, for example,
the Electronic Communications Privacy Act does not apply to ISPs.
Anderson was threatened with violence and silenced on NANOG for holding
reasonable viewpoints.

In 2001, Vixie was found with sufficient facts in Exactis v. MAPS to
warrant a Temporary Restraining Order(TRO) for anti-trust violation,
intentional and negligent misrepresentation and extortion, Colorado
Organized Crime Control Act, et al. MAPS responded with a First
Amendment argument that was rejected. After their lawyer was chastised,
they settled with Exactis. This TRO appears to be sufficient
justification to label all involved as being suspected of ties to
organized crime.

In 2003, it was discovered (SpamKings, 2003) that MAPS employees were
working for uber spammer Scott Richter (optinrealbig.com) doing
listwashing, that is, removing spam-trap email addresses from his spam
lists.

So after Anderson was vindicated on the ECPA and Anti-trust issues,
Vixie/SORBS et al retaliated by falsely stating that networks announced
by Av8 Internet (198.3.136/21 and 130.105/16)  are hijacked. After
criticism on ARIN's PPML mailing list, Vixie has since moved SORBS to
Dave Rand's bungi.com network. Vixie then claimed to have never hosted
SORBS.

In 2003, Chris Morrow (Nanog Steering Committee) published routes
disrupting AV8 Internet 198.3.136/21 network, repeating Hannigan's act
against Wallace.  This was during a 'hijacking' dispute and after Morrow
had the documents proving the networks were properly transferred; AFTER
ARIN were involved; and AFTER Lawyers for UUnet and AV8 were involved.
Morrow said that he couldn't reach Anderson by phone and that he needed
to disrupt the network "to get [Anderson's] attention", although Morrow
had contacted Anderson by phone before. After lawyers are involved,
Morrow should have contacted his lawyer, not Anderson directly.  
Anderson contact UUnet's lawyer, who had not authorized Morrow's
disruption.  Intentionally damaging a computer in Interstate Commerce is
a criminal offense.

In 2007, Morrow was abruptly placed in charge of the IETF GROW (Global
Routing) Working Group. There is usually a call for volunteers, and
qualified volunteers are selected. Morrow has no previous experience
with the IETF or the GROW WG.  Morrow works in customer security and
previously worked as UUnet Postmaster. The GROW WG is in charge a
controversial DNS Root Anycast Document.

In 2004, Nanog participant JA Terranson (formerly SAVVIS) and Spamhaus
extorted SAVVIS into terminating its CAN-SPAM compliant emailers.  
http://www.iadl.org/JATerranson/JATerranson-story.html Terranson was
fired after disclosing confidential customer information to Spamhaus.
Spamhaus doesn't block Whitehat, though. Dave Rand (Vixie partner in
MAPS) supports Spamhaus.

Most recently, NANOG has been involved in promoting the controversial
notion that stateful Anycast is stable. Anycast is the technique of
assigning the same IP address to two or more computers, and is described
by RFC1546.  RFC1546 specifically says that Anycast will only work for
stateless services.  Vixie and some other root DNS server operators have
begun selling Root DNS Anycast services to ISPs. DNS is mostly
stateless, but Root DNS server operators have to perform TCP DNS
services, which are stateful. See
http://www.av8.net/IETF-watch/DNSRootAnycast/History.html

Anderson was silenced in May, 2005 for posting 3rd party statistical
data on SORBS and for disputing claims made by Vixie about Anycast.

There are other scams that I won't list here.


Nanog also posted a financial 'update' for 2006.
http://www.nanog.org/budget/financial-updates.pdf Revenue was about
$181k and posted a loss of about $38k. This loss was covered by ARIN's
$50k donation.  ARIN made up almost a third of the NANOG budget.  NANOG
is a VERY small organization.


-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
617 344 9000   
















From tedm at ipinc.net  Mon Nov  5 21:01:01 2007
From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 18:01:01 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711041807420.18749-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOMEHGHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>



>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dean Anderson [mailto:dean at av8.net]
>Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 5:09 PM
>To: Ted Mittelstaedt
>Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
>Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
>
>
>On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>> >On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, Internet Partners, Inc. Tech Support wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Dean, I agreed with you in general on VON but the horse is dead.
>> >> Have you ever considered the possibility that ARIN Management simply
>> >> doesen't know what shows to go to?
>> >
>> >This isn't a one-time mistake. It appears to be a $400,000+ mistake.
>>
>> It couldn't have cost $400,000 to fly 2 guys from CA to Boston to host
>> a booth at VON.  You have to be kidding, there has to be something else
>> that the line item is paying for.
>
>I guess I wasn't clear. One conference would be a one-time mistake.
>The one conference I cited was the one where I had some personal
>experience to relate. But I understand they've been at VON several
>times.  There are apparently other trips under the banner of
>'educational outreach'. These add up to a $1.2 million dollar travel
>item; approximately $400,000 more the prior year's travel expenses. If
>they are all as educational as this VON conference, then none of them
>are legitimate. The Nanog transfer was also asserted to be "educational
>outreach".  These are not genuine efforts at education, but junkets. In
>the case of Nanog, assistance to cronies of Board Members.
>
>So, it seems that Board Members overlook ARIN employee junkets, and ARIN
>staff overlook the unjustified transfers to Nanog and Board Member
>cronies.  One scratches the other's back, both obtain benefits, and
>Members lose.

I don't think your going to get anywhere with the Nanog/ARIN joint meetings.
There are two many people that are in both groups that see synergy
by having the meetings in the same venue.  As for you personally, you
can always submit questions through the online forum during the meetings
if you don't want to go there.  Or, e-mail them to the chairs of any
of the meetings so they can be addressed.  Frankly, my personal opinion
is that most of the work in any volunteer organization is done outside
of meetings anyway.  I don't subscribe to the idea that just because
someone doesen't go to the meetings that their opinions have no weight.

If the joint meetings help to attract more attendance at ARIN then even
if Nanog is getting "assistance" then you just have to swallow it and
chin up.  It is very difficult to increase attendance at these kinds of
meetings, and paying money towards something you don't like in order to
do it is just something that you have to do.  I personally can't stand
the usual chicken-and-baked-potato "dinners" at these kinds of meetings
but if I go I pay the money and gag the stuff down because it is the
price of getting time to talk to other people.  I also find most of the
time that the "special" hotel room rates for these meetings that always seem
to be arrainged at the hosting hotel to be among the highest rates in
the vicinity for any hotel or motel room, once more, you pay the highway
robbers if you want to go to the parties.

As for the rest of it, it is I think a perfectly legitimate question to
ask what kind of tracking that is being done on the contacts at these
trade shows.  I ASSUME that someone at the ARIN booth is recording the
names and positions of people who stop by and get the ARIN dog-and-pony
show. Or that they are asking for business cards.  I would prefer that
a determination of whether the trip was worthwhile or not was made
after review of this info and I would hope that a summary report of
every trade show that was attended would be available for review by the
membership.

>This is what you hire managers to prevent, and why you
>fire them when these things are uncovered.  Board Members also have
>fiduciary duties; they are supposed to act in the interests of the
>membership and ensure that the corporation employees carry out the
>purposes (and only the purposes) of the corporation. The Board of
>Directors are also supposed to have an arms-length supervisory
>relationship with the management. Board members should not be doing
>things that employees would ordinarily do.
>

That is completely dependent on the size of the organization, in a
small one, the board members do quite a lot.  I agree that it isn't
optimal.  Some of the large embezzlements of non-profit funds that
have occurred have been because of this kind of thing.  That is why
it's important to have regular audits of these groups.  I would
challenge you to investigate this, obtain and read the auditors report
and see what they had to say.

Ted



From dean at av8.net  Tue Nov  6 01:13:31 2007
From: dean at av8.net (Dean Anderson)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 01:13:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOMEHGHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711060057040.21359-100000@citation2.av8.net>

On Mon, 5 Nov 2007, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> 
> I don't think your going to get anywhere with the Nanog/ARIN joint
> meetings.

Well, we are not without remedies. Let me outline those:

Under the ARIN bylaws, Board Members can be recalled by a vote of the
membership. Although 2 Board Members were just elected, I think that the
members were probably not aware of all the facts. However, the Board
Members were aware of these facts.  So, I propose a recall vote for the
following Board Members:

	John Curran
	Bill Manning
	Bill Woodcock
	Paul Vixie

That vote will either succeed or fail. If it succeeds, we are in the
majority, and 4 new board members will be selected that don't have ties
to Nanog/Curran/Manning/Woodcock/Vixie/ et al.

If the vote fails, then we are in the minority. Minority members still
have rights.  Among those rights are the right to file a derivative
lawsuit on behalf of ARIN against the Board Members and ARIN Management.  
For example, members have the right to obtain a full accounting of the
benefits transferred from ARIN to Nanog and Board Member cronies, as
well as investigate the Cohen/Kremen affair.  We have the right to
challenge the classification and justification of expenses (this is how
affairs like Enron/Worldcom came to light).  We have the right to obtain
restitution of improperly transferred benefits. There are other rights,
too.

> As for the rest of it, it is I think a perfectly legitimate question
> to ask what kind of tracking that is being done on the contacts at
> these trade shows.  I ASSUME that someone at the ARIN booth is
> recording the names and positions of people who stop by and get the
> ARIN dog-and-pony show. Or that they are asking for business cards.  
> I would prefer that a determination of whether the trip was worthwhile
> or not was made after review of this info and I would hope that a
> summary report of every trade show that was attended would be
> available for review by the membership.

I agree, the first step is a full accounting and an investigation. I
suppose the Board is already contemplating the need for independent
outside counsel to oversee this investigation, or will be shortly.

		--Dean

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From jcurran at istaff.org  Tue Nov  6 01:24:15 2007
From: jcurran at istaff.org (John Curran)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 01:24:15 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711060057040.21359-100000@citation2.av8.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711060057040.21359-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <p06240800c355b7ab5652@[192.168.8.65]>

At 1:13 AM -0500 11/6/07, Dean Anderson wrote:
>Well, we are not without remedies. Let me outline those:
>
>Under the ARIN bylaws, Board Members can be recalled by a vote of the
>membership. Although 2 Board Members were just elected, I think that the
>members were probably not aware of all the facts. However, the Board
>Members were aware of these facts.  So, I propose a recall vote for the
>following Board Members:
>
>	John Curran
>	Bill Manning
>	Bill Woodcock
>	Paul Vixie

Dean -
 
   Your proposal for a recall vote is noted.  Please refer to the
   procedure for Trusteee removal which is located here:
   http://www.arin.net/about_us/boardguidelines.html#removal

   If you have any questions about this process, please do not
   hesitate to contact myself, or Ray Plzak, ARIN President and
   CEO, as needed.

/John

John Curran
Chair, ARIN Board of Trustees



From dsd at servervault.com  Tue Nov  6 08:05:29 2007
From: dsd at servervault.com (Divins, David)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 08:05:29 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711060057040.21359-100000@citation2.av8.net>
References: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOMEHGHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0711060057040.21359-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <F8B974E70BDE1745ABB27AF04788FA0004619B63@mail1.dulles.sv.int>

Can I vote to have you stop posting your conspiracy theories to the
board?

-dsd

David Divins
Principal Engineer
ServerVault Corp.
(703) 652-5955
-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Dean Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 1:14 AM
To: Ted Mittelstaedt
Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: ***POSSIBLE SPAM*** Re: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA

On Mon, 5 Nov 2007, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> 
> I don't think your going to get anywhere with the Nanog/ARIN joint 
> meetings.

Well, we are not without remedies. Let me outline those:

Under the ARIN bylaws, Board Members can be recalled by a vote of the
membership. Although 2 Board Members were just elected, I think that the
members were probably not aware of all the facts. However, the Board
Members were aware of these facts.  So, I propose a recall vote for the
following Board Members:

	John Curran
	Bill Manning
	Bill Woodcock
	Paul Vixie

That vote will either succeed or fail. If it succeeds, we are in the
majority, and 4 new board members will be selected that don't have ties
to Nanog/Curran/Manning/Woodcock/Vixie/ et al.

If the vote fails, then we are in the minority. Minority members still
have rights.  Among those rights are the right to file a derivative
lawsuit on behalf of ARIN against the Board Members and ARIN Management.

For example, members have the right to obtain a full accounting of the
benefits transferred from ARIN to Nanog and Board Member cronies, as
well as investigate the Cohen/Kremen affair.  We have the right to
challenge the classification and justification of expenses (this is how
affairs like Enron/Worldcom came to light).  We have the right to obtain
restitution of improperly transferred benefits. There are other rights,
too.

> As for the rest of it, it is I think a perfectly legitimate question 
> to ask what kind of tracking that is being done on the contacts at 
> these trade shows.  I ASSUME that someone at the ARIN booth is 
> recording the names and positions of people who stop by and get the 
> ARIN dog-and-pony show. Or that they are asking for business cards.
> I would prefer that a determination of whether the trip was worthwhile

> or not was made after review of this info and I would hope that a 
> summary report of every trade show that was attended would be 
> available for review by the membership.

I agree, the first step is a full accounting and an investigation. I
suppose the Board is already contemplating the need for independent
outside counsel to oversee this investigation, or will be shortly.

		--Dean

-- 
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From cgucker at onesc.net  Tue Nov  6 09:00:49 2007
From: cgucker at onesc.net (Charles Gucker)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:00:49 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <F8B974E70BDE1745ABB27AF04788FA0004619B63@mail1.dulles.sv.int>
References: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOMEHGHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0711060057040.21359-100000@citation2.av8.net>
	<F8B974E70BDE1745ABB27AF04788FA0004619B63@mail1.dulles.sv.int>
Message-ID: <c85424b0711060600yea83e2agf212812f8da3b59f@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/6/07, Divins, David <dsd at servervault.com> wrote:
> Can I vote to have you stop posting your conspiracy theories to the
> board?

I am on board with you.   But I would propose to call a vote to have
Dean's [employers] membership removed, I'm sure we'll quickly find out
where the majority is.   I am all for discussion, but many things he
has said have been outright threats and not productive.

And for those interested, I have no official ties to NANOG/ARIN,
except to be a member of ARIN and a conference attendee of NANOG.

charles


From BillD at cait.wustl.edu  Tue Nov  6 09:32:18 2007
From: BillD at cait.wustl.edu (Bill Darte)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 08:32:18 -0600
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
References: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOMEHGHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net><Pine.LNX.4.44.0711060057040.21359-100000@citation2.av8.net><F8B974E70BDE1745ABB27AF04788FA0004619B63@mail1.dulles.sv.int>
	<c85424b0711060600yea83e2agf212812f8da3b59f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EACF8B735E9CBA4B8BAF9E4165D030871CBA25@ex1.cait.wustl.edu>

Accountability is a good thing for both ARIN and participants of the ARIN mailing lists, seems to me.

Dean appears to have a problem with the way in which ARIN and it's Board operate and is voicing that concern. Others like yourself are reacting to his statements however they are expressed and for whatever purpose. This IMO is a fine display of the open nature of the ARIN organization and process.  Expressions by those who are in sympathy with Dean and those in opposition are useful to help everyone understand where consensus exists.

As an Advisory Council member...and in relation to addressing policy, that is the kind of information I need.  In matters of how ARIN operates, again IMO, the industry needs similar guidance.

Related to your suggestion about revoking Dean's employers membership. I am unaware that ARIN has a procedure for doing so and especially related to his input on this list, it would seem totally inadvisable (IMO). This would distort the openness of the forum and institution. Should others on the list hold him accountable for his assertions (or indeed his employer)?  Of course as that is what makes a discussion fruitful.

And, the more that engage in the process (on either side) establishes the greater and more credible value.

Bill Darte
Washington University in St. Louis

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net on behalf of Charles Gucker
Sent: Tue 11/6/2007 8:00 AM
To: Divins, David
Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
 
On 11/6/07, Divins, David <dsd at servervault.com> wrote:
> Can I vote to have you stop posting your conspiracy theories to the
> board?

I am on board with you.   But I would propose to call a vote to have
Dean's [employers] membership removed, I'm sure we'll quickly find out
where the majority is.   I am all for discussion, but many things he
has said have been outright threats and not productive.

And for those interested, I have no official ties to NANOG/ARIN,
except to be a member of ARIN and a conference attendee of NANOG.

charles
_______________________________________________
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From paul at vix.com  Tue Nov  6 09:37:51 2007
From: paul at vix.com (Paul Vixie)
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:37:51 +0000
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 06 Nov 2007 08:32:18 CST."
	<EACF8B735E9CBA4B8BAF9E4165D030871CBA25@ex1.cait.wustl.edu> 
References: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOMEHGHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net><Pine.LNX.4.44.0711060057040.21359-100000@citation2.av8.net><F8B974E70BDE1745ABB27AF04788FA0004619B63@mail1.dulles.sv.int>
	<c85424b0711060600yea83e2agf212812f8da3b59f@mail.gmail.com>
	<EACF8B735E9CBA4B8BAF9E4165D030871CBA25@ex1.cait.wustl.edu> 
Message-ID: <68585.1194359871@sa.vix.com>

bill darte wrote a lot of stuff with which i heartily agree, including:

> Related to your suggestion about revoking Dean's employers membership. I am
> unaware that ARIN has a procedure for doing so and especially related to his
> input on this list, it would seem totally inadvisable (IMO). This would
> distort the openness of the forum and institution. ...

yea, verily.  sunshine is the best cure for a lot of the world's ills.

paul


From pete.templin at texlink.com  Tue Nov  6 09:50:57 2007
From: pete.templin at texlink.com (Pete Templin)
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 08:50:57 -0600
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711041807420.18749-100000@citation2.av8.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711041807420.18749-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <47307F51.2000607@texlink.com>

Dean Anderson wrote:

> I guess I wasn't clear. One conference would be a one-time mistake.  
> The one conference I cited was the one where I had some personal
> experience to relate. But I understand they've been at VON several
> times.  There are apparently other trips under the banner of
> 'educational outreach'. These add up to a $1.2 million dollar travel
> item; approximately $400,000 more the prior year's travel expenses.

Perhaps someone needs to ask the question: Dean, how many dollars have 
you sent to ARIN that have gone towards this educational outreach?

pt


From Lee.Howard at stanleyassociates.com  Tue Nov  6 10:06:40 2007
From: Lee.Howard at stanleyassociates.com (Howard, W. Lee)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:06:40 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOMEHGHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <369EB04A0951824ABE7D8BAC67AF9BB407857D74@CL-S-EX-1.stanleyassociates.com>

>  That is why it's important to have regular 
> audits of these groups.  I would challenge you to investigate 
> this, obtain and read the auditors report and see what they 
> had to say.

The auditor's report is available at
http://www.arin.net/about_us/corp_docs/annual_rprt.html

As reported at the Members Meeting, we are also having a
separate audit of our financial controls, by an independent
auditor, who provides no other services to ARIN.  We're not 
required to do this, and in fact it's unusual for an 
organization like ARIN to do so, but we want every possible 
assurance that we have adequate controls.

This isn't the first time we've done this, either; we had
a similar audit a few years ago.  Also, we changed auditors,
to make sure we weren't getting too cozy with one firm.

It is possible for members to disagree with ARIN's 
activities without any impropriety existing.  That input
is taken into account by each Board member in the budget 
approval process.

Context:  I'm ARIN's Treasurer and a Board member

Lee


From dean at av8.net  Tue Nov  6 11:04:34 2007
From: dean at av8.net (Dean Anderson)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:04:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <F8B974E70BDE1745ABB27AF04788FA0004619B63@mail1.dulles.sv.int>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711061102430.21359-100000@citation2.av8.net>


On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, Divins, David wrote:

> Can I vote to have you stop posting your conspiracy theories to the
> board?

I have not posted any conspiracy theories, so it would be impossible to 
stop what I have not done.  I have posted objective facts that are 
independently verifiable.  I stand accountable to the facts, as do the 
ARIN Board Members.

		--Dean

-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
617 344 9000   




From dean at av8.net  Tue Nov  6 11:22:36 2007
From: dean at av8.net (Dean Anderson)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:22:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <369EB04A0951824ABE7D8BAC67AF9BB407857D74@CL-S-EX-1.stanleyassociates.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711061104450.21359-100000@citation2.av8.net>

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, Howard, W. Lee wrote:
> >  That is why it's important to have regular audits of these groups.  
> > I would challenge you to investigate this, obtain and read the
> > auditors report and see what they had to say.
> 
> The auditor's report is available at
> http://www.arin.net/about_us/corp_docs/annual_rprt.html

Enron, Worldcom, etc all had audits, too.  The classification and
justification of expenses is disputed here.  The audit _after_ these
disputes are resolved is the one that will be important.

An auditor can only look at the purported justification written on the
paperwork given for the expense and decide whether the purported
justification would be a valid expense in the category listed. They
cannot easilly detect if the justification is actually legitimate and
true.  An auditor can't tell if going to VON is a legitimate educational
outreach effort or a junket. They can't tell if transferring $50k to
Nanog is a legitimate educational outreach expense, or an improper
transfer to Board Member special interests. Auditors don't investigate
the interests of the Board Members.

So, an audit doesn't mean that the purported justifications and
classifications are _actually_ valid. An audit just means that, on the
face of it, the justifications seemed valid.

		--Dean

-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
617 344 9000   





From jharle at ibahn.com  Tue Nov  6 11:27:35 2007
From: jharle at ibahn.com (Harle, Jim)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 09:27:35 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <c85424b0711060600yea83e2agf212812f8da3b59f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOMEHGHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net><Pine.LNX.4.44.0711060057040.21359-100000@citation2.av8.net><F8B974E70BDE1745ABB27AF04788FA0004619B63@mail1.dulles.sv.int>
	<c85424b0711060600yea83e2agf212812f8da3b59f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CBD64D61167B4A47B063A8A0F08C9FBD052C272A@s-mail1-slc-svo.stsn.com>

Regarding Dean Anderson, Charles Gucker apparently wrote:

> I am all for discussion, but many things he
> has said have been outright threats and not productive.

I'm relatively new to this mailing list, but have learned a few things:

1)  Dean's messages are often long and contain drama.  If I don't have
the time to be "un-productive," I delete them.  The messages can be
useful for taking my mind off of work, as I read them while eating a
sandwich...better than reading that comic book, anyway.

2)  There are several intelligent individuals, including Dean, who
participate on this list, and have intelligent things to say, regardless
of whether I understand or agree with them.

3)  I don't dare "open my mouth" unless I _really_ know what I'm talking
about.  (I hope I know what I'm talking about when I send this message).

-Jim, partaker of a bit of nanog during the holidays.


From Scott.Shackelford at cox.com  Tue Nov  6 11:45:00 2007
From: Scott.Shackelford at cox.com (Scott.Shackelford at cox.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:45:00 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <CBD64D61167B4A47B063A8A0F08C9FBD052C272A@s-mail1-slc-svo.stsn.com>
References: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOMEHGHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net><Pine.LNX.4.44.0711060057040.21359-100000@citation2.av8.net><F8B974E70BDE1745ABB27AF04788FA0004619B63@mail1.dulles.sv.int><c85424b0711060600yea83e2agf212812f8da3b59f@mail.gmail.com>
	<CBD64D61167B4A47B063A8A0F08C9FBD052C272A@s-mail1-slc-svo.stsn.com>
Message-ID: <F458E71667DE004CB135F8E4BFC2FFA304B4A7D8@CATL0MS02.corp.cox.com>


I think this makes a good point. 

Dean, I don't think anyone doubts that you have had much experience in
this community and that you're very educated in what you're speaking of,
but try to look at it from the other perspective...our perspective if
you will. Many of us who are either newcomers or have been attending
meetings for only a few years have never heard of you or any of the
points that you're bringing to light. Then, all of a sudden the mailing
list is ignited with such ferocity that it surely grabs the attention of
just about anyone reading it...at least initially. 
 I personally was looking forward to the last meeting in anticipation of
your arrival and to have some great conversations and debates ensue, but
to no avail; obviously you didn't show up. Now, you cited your reasons,
and that's fine, but keep in mind that from 'our' perspective we're
inclined to only see a person sitting behind their keyboard trying to
stir the pot while not having any real interest in making a change or
contributing for the overall benefit of the internet community. 
 You've been welcomed and encouraged by many here to 'do something'
rather than just 'saying something'. Respectfully, until this happens
you're not really doing any favors for any of us, much less your
credibility.

Regards,
Scott



-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Harle, Jim
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 11:28 AM
To: Charles Gucker
Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA

Regarding Dean Anderson, Charles Gucker apparently wrote:

> I am all for discussion, but many things he
> has said have been outright threats and not productive.

I'm relatively new to this mailing list, but have learned a few things:

1)  Dean's messages are often long and contain drama.  If I don't have
the time to be "un-productive," I delete them.  The messages can be
useful for taking my mind off of work, as I read them while eating a
sandwich...better than reading that comic book, anyway.

2)  There are several intelligent individuals, including Dean, who
participate on this list, and have intelligent things to say, regardless
of whether I understand or agree with them.

3)  I don't dare "open my mouth" unless I _really_ know what I'm talking
about.  (I hope I know what I'm talking about when I send this message).

-Jim, partaker of a bit of nanog during the holidays.
_______________________________________________
ARIN-Discuss
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
Discussion
Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
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From GarthB at semaphore.com  Tue Nov  6 12:04:56 2007
From: GarthB at semaphore.com (Garth Brown)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 09:04:56 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711061104450.21359-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <5A4BAB09C68AAA48B8855A5EAAA07E5FF74DC0@exchange00.semaphore.lan>

Dean,

Your opinions are clearly well defined and fixed in their positions. I don't happen to agree with many of them (though I've also experienced unjustified interference in the early-days of the anti-spam "movement" from some of the parties you reference).

I might constructively suggest that you expend your efforts in the collection of a petition with the required number of signatories (if indeed there are enough to support it) and pursue your grievances within the system that's in place. Perhaps you can invite like minded people to a separate list where you can make your plans.

>From my perspective, the horse is dead. Please stop beating it - at least in my inbox. If you have support, execute something constructive.

Garth Brown

> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Dean Anderson
> Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 8:23 AM
> To: Howard, W. Lee
> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
>
>
> On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, Howard, W. Lee wrote:
> > >  That is why it's important to have regular audits of
> these groups.
> > > I would challenge you to investigate this, obtain and read the
> > > auditors report and see what they had to say.
> >
> > The auditor's report is available at
> > http://www.arin.net/about_us/corp_docs/annual_rprt.html
>
> Enron, Worldcom, etc all had audits, too.  The classification and
> justification of expenses is disputed here.  The audit _after_ these
> disputes are resolved is the one that will be important.
>
> An auditor can only look at the purported justification written on the
> paperwork given for the expense and decide whether the purported
> justification would be a valid expense in the category listed. They
> cannot easilly detect if the justification is actually legitimate and
> true.  An auditor can't tell if going to VON is a legitimate
> educational
> outreach effort or a junket. They can't tell if transferring $50k to
> Nanog is a legitimate educational outreach expense, or an improper
> transfer to Board Member special interests. Auditors don't investigate
> the interests of the Board Members.
>
> So, an audit doesn't mean that the purported justifications and
> classifications are _actually_ valid. An audit just means that, on the
> face of it, the justifications seemed valid.
>
>                 --Dean
>
> --
> Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
> www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
> 617 344 9000
>
>
>
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From THutchison at corp.untd.com  Tue Nov  6 13:20:09 2007
From: THutchison at corp.untd.com (Hutchison, Tine)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:20:09 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711041807420.18749-100000@citation2.av8.net>
References: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOIEHAHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0711041807420.18749-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <8C4A641905D89E4B87956814FE53C462012325BF@LAXEVS01.lax.corp.int.untd.com>

I think there's an underlying issue that you're failing to address (in
the specific case of the expanded travel and outreach budget.)  The
issue is "is VON contrary to the stated purpose of ARIN?"

Two of ARIN's purposes, as stated in their articles of incorporation
(http://www.arin.net/about_us/corp_docs/artic_incorp.html) are:

1) to increase and diffuse knowledge to the general public about the
Internet in its broadest sense;

2) to educate industry and the Internet community in order to further
their technical understanding of the Internet;

These two lines - which are so critical as to warrant being the first
purposes listed - seem to indicate that ARIN is justified in spending
money to go to nearly any event where "the Internet community" or even
"the general public" might attend.  

While this would justify ARIN going to pretty much any event, they seem
to be restricting themselves to events relevant to people who operate
the Internet.

Your presence at VON proves that VON is in the range of relevant events.
Other people on the lest chiming in that they were also there reinforces
that.

Tine 

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Dean Anderson
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 5:09 PM
To: Ted Mittelstaedt
Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA

On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> >On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, Internet Partners, Inc. Tech Support wrote:
> >> 
> >> Dean, I agreed with you in general on VON but the horse is dead.
> >> Have you ever considered the possibility that ARIN Management 
> >> simply doesen't know what shows to go to?
> >
> >This isn't a one-time mistake. It appears to be a $400,000+ mistake.
> 
> It couldn't have cost $400,000 to fly 2 guys from CA to Boston to host

> a booth at VON.  You have to be kidding, there has to be something 
> else that the line item is paying for.

I guess I wasn't clear. One conference would be a one-time mistake.  
The one conference I cited was the one where I had some personal
experience to relate. But I understand they've been at VON several
times.  There are apparently other trips under the banner of
'educational outreach'. These add up to a $1.2 million dollar travel
item; approximately $400,000 more the prior year's travel expenses. If
they are all as educational as this VON conference, then none of them
are legitimate. The Nanog transfer was also asserted to be "educational
outreach".  These are not genuine efforts at education, but junkets. In
the case of Nanog, assistance to cronies of Board Members.

So, it seems that Board Members overlook ARIN employee junkets, and ARIN
staff overlook the unjustified transfers to Nanog and Board Member
cronies.  One scratches the other's back, both obtain benefits, and
Members lose.  This is what you hire managers to prevent, and why you
fire them when these things are uncovered.  Board Members also have
fiduciary duties; they are supposed to act in the interests of the
membership and ensure that the corporation employees carry out the
purposes (and only the purposes) of the corporation. The Board of
Directors are also supposed to have an arms-length supervisory
relationship with the management. Board members should not be doing
things that employees would ordinarily do.

We also have ARIN engaging in extortion of Legacys, as I described
previously. This relates to other similar activity, and to an ARIN Board
Member previously accused in Court of, among other things, extortion and
organized crime, for which a Temporary Restraining Order was issued.

Let me try to put some perspective on the issue with some background:


Who's who (abbreviated):
---------

Paul Vixie is an ARIN Board Member. 

Bill Woodcock is an ARIN Board Member and NANOG Program Committee
member.  

Bill Manning is an ARIN Board Member and a past NANOG Program Committee
member.  Manning has also helped Vixie/ISC avoid responsibility for
SORBS support.  http://www.iadl.org/bm/bill-manning-story.html This page
needs to be updated, Vixie has since moved SORBS to Dave Rand's
bungi.com network.

Rodney Joffe is a NANOG Program Committee member. Joffe is also the
founder of Whitehat.com a spam operation. Prior to founding Whitehat,
Joffe worked for American Computer Group, Mailorder.com, a junk postal
mail services company.  Vixie was (may still be--they've removed the
Board of Directors from the web site) a board member of Whitehat.  
Joffe currently works for NeuStar, a company that provides services to
VON.

Martin Hannigan. NANOG Email List Management Committee, ARIN AC member. 

Ed Lewis (NeuStar) supports ARIN booth at VON.  NeuStar provides
services to VON and has sponsored NANOG.

Keith Mitchell is a NANOG Program Committee member who works for Paul
Vixie on NANOG.

Chris Morrow, NANOG Program Committee. Recently appointed Chair of IETF
GROW WG. The GROW WG is in charge of a draft promoting DNS Root Anycast,
promoted by Vixie.

Dave Rand co-founded MAPS with Vixie. It seems the 'old MAPS gang' is
back together on SORBS.

Robert Seastrom is an ARIN AC member and a prominent Nanog member
engaged in "Nanog Futures". Seastrom's company (Cambridge Bandwidth
Consortium) is promoted by Paul Vixie at
http://www.vix.com/personalcolo/, though Seastrom appears to have moved
on from there.
http://www.cambridge.bandwidth-consortium.us/

Dean Anderson is the President of the League for Programming Freedom,
and the owner of Av8 Internet, Inc, member of ARIN, member of ISOC. 



So we have three board members who have close interests in NANOG,
including one with previous TRO with very disturbing claims. And we have
a rather interesting circle of interests and cronies involving ARIN
Board Members and NANOG.  John Curran is also a participant in NANOG.





What is NANOG and What it is Doing? 
----------------------------------

Someone also asked me what Nanog is.  NANOG is "North American Network
Operators Group". It has a web page at http://www.nanog.org.  I have a
web page on the group at http://www.iadl.org/nanog/nanog-story.html

Nanog is a group of about 50 or so core members with several hundred
more transient members (people who post to the list or attend meetings
for a few years or less). It ostensibly claims to educate network
operations staff, but it is really a political or business operation
that just promotes the business interests of the core members.

Nanog has been involved in promoting the notion that network operators
can read customers email, suppressing anyone who disputed this notion
(e.g. myself).  This has been used to in spam operations.  Prominent
participants, Paul Vixie and Rodney Joffe et al, have run a spam
blacklist (MAPS, SORBS, Spamhaus) and also run a spam company called
Whitehat (www.whitehat.com).  So, they block their competition with
MAPS/SORBS, send spam from that isn't blocked, and through NANOG
encourage network operators to (illegally) read customer emails and
report on the activities of their competition.

Vixie and company basically just stole Sanford Wallace's business plan.

Wallace was a well-know spammer in the late 90s, and also sold anti-spam
software.  Vixie represented himself as a 'radical' anti-spammers. For
example, Vixie wrote about spam that "the war won't be over until the
last spammer's head is stuck onto a spear at the city limits.". A very
extreme and brutal statement. Meanwhile, Vixie and prominent
anti-spammers John Levine and Ray Everett-Church were a board members of
privately held Whitehat.  Board members in privately held companies are
often the major investors, but I don't know for who owns Whitehat.

In 1997, Martin Hannigan, Hannigan advertised routes disrupting
Wallace's network access. Whitehat was unaffected.

In the 1990s, Anderson disputed false claims on NANOG that, for example,
the Electronic Communications Privacy Act does not apply to ISPs.
Anderson was threatened with violence and silenced on NANOG for holding
reasonable viewpoints.

In 2001, Vixie was found with sufficient facts in Exactis v. MAPS to
warrant a Temporary Restraining Order(TRO) for anti-trust violation,
intentional and negligent misrepresentation and extortion, Colorado
Organized Crime Control Act, et al. MAPS responded with a First
Amendment argument that was rejected. After their lawyer was chastised,
they settled with Exactis. This TRO appears to be sufficient
justification to label all involved as being suspected of ties to
organized crime.

In 2003, it was discovered (SpamKings, 2003) that MAPS employees were
working for uber spammer Scott Richter (optinrealbig.com) doing
listwashing, that is, removing spam-trap email addresses from his spam
lists.

So after Anderson was vindicated on the ECPA and Anti-trust issues,
Vixie/SORBS et al retaliated by falsely stating that networks announced
by Av8 Internet (198.3.136/21 and 130.105/16)  are hijacked. After
criticism on ARIN's PPML mailing list, Vixie has since moved SORBS to
Dave Rand's bungi.com network. Vixie then claimed to have never hosted
SORBS.

In 2003, Chris Morrow (Nanog Steering Committee) published routes
disrupting AV8 Internet 198.3.136/21 network, repeating Hannigan's act
against Wallace.  This was during a 'hijacking' dispute and after Morrow
had the documents proving the networks were properly transferred; AFTER
ARIN were involved; and AFTER Lawyers for UUnet and AV8 were involved.
Morrow said that he couldn't reach Anderson by phone and that he needed
to disrupt the network "to get [Anderson's] attention", although Morrow
had contacted Anderson by phone before. After lawyers are involved,
Morrow should have contacted his lawyer, not Anderson directly.  
Anderson contact UUnet's lawyer, who had not authorized Morrow's
disruption.  Intentionally damaging a computer in Interstate Commerce is
a criminal offense.

In 2007, Morrow was abruptly placed in charge of the IETF GROW (Global
Routing) Working Group. There is usually a call for volunteers, and
qualified volunteers are selected. Morrow has no previous experience
with the IETF or the GROW WG.  Morrow works in customer security and
previously worked as UUnet Postmaster. The GROW WG is in charge a
controversial DNS Root Anycast Document.

In 2004, Nanog participant JA Terranson (formerly SAVVIS) and Spamhaus
extorted SAVVIS into terminating its CAN-SPAM compliant emailers.  
http://www.iadl.org/JATerranson/JATerranson-story.html Terranson was
fired after disclosing confidential customer information to Spamhaus.
Spamhaus doesn't block Whitehat, though. Dave Rand (Vixie partner in
MAPS) supports Spamhaus.

Most recently, NANOG has been involved in promoting the controversial
notion that stateful Anycast is stable. Anycast is the technique of
assigning the same IP address to two or more computers, and is described
by RFC1546.  RFC1546 specifically says that Anycast will only work for
stateless services.  Vixie and some other root DNS server operators have
begun selling Root DNS Anycast services to ISPs. DNS is mostly
stateless, but Root DNS server operators have to perform TCP DNS
services, which are stateful. See
http://www.av8.net/IETF-watch/DNSRootAnycast/History.html

Anderson was silenced in May, 2005 for posting 3rd party statistical
data on SORBS and for disputing claims made by Vixie about Anycast.

There are other scams that I won't list here.


Nanog also posted a financial 'update' for 2006.
http://www.nanog.org/budget/financial-updates.pdf Revenue was about
$181k and posted a loss of about $38k. This loss was covered by ARIN's
$50k donation.  ARIN made up almost a third of the NANOG budget.  NANOG
is a VERY small organization.


-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
617 344 9000   














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From tedm at ipinc.net  Tue Nov  6 15:24:01 2007
From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:24:01 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <8C4A641905D89E4B87956814FE53C462012325BF@LAXEVS01.lax.corp.int.untd.com>
Message-ID: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOIEHIHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>



>-----Original Message-----
>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Hutchison, Tine
>Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 10:20 AM
>To: arin-discuss at arin.net
>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
>
>
>I think there's an underlying issue that you're failing to address (in
>the specific case of the expanded travel and outreach budget.)  The
>issue is "is VON contrary to the stated purpose of ARIN?"
>
>Two of ARIN's purposes, as stated in their articles of incorporation
>(http://www.arin.net/about_us/corp_docs/artic_incorp.html) are:
>
>1) to increase and diffuse knowledge to the general public about the
>Internet in its broadest sense;
>
>2) to educate industry and the Internet community in order to further
>their technical understanding of the Internet;
>
>These two lines - which are so critical as to warrant being the first
>purposes listed - seem to indicate that ARIN is justified in spending
>money to go to nearly any event where "the Internet community" or even
>"the general public" might attend.
>
>While this would justify ARIN going to pretty much any event, they seem
>to be restricting themselves to events relevant to people who operate
>the Internet.
>
>Your presence at VON proves that VON is in the range of relevant events.
>Other people on the lest chiming in that they were also there reinforces
>that.
>


I have to disagree with this.

Attendance at a tradeshow to further the technical understanding of the
Internet is fine.  However, if no "furthering of the technical
understanding"
is taking place, then attendance at such a show is a waste of time and
money.

The effacy of ARIN's attendance at any of these trade shows - like VON - is
a
metric that is EASILY measured.  I already suggested some of the ways to do
it
- such as taking down names, or taking business cards, etc. AT THE SHOW.

If the metrics for attendance at a particular show do NOT bear out the
requirement of the charter that education of the Internet community is
taking place, then ARIN should not continue attending the show in the
future.
There are plenty of other shows out there to attend.

Dean is arguing about ARIN's attendance at a specific show - VON.  Too
many responders on this list seem to be responding to an assertion that
ALL tradeshow attendance by ARIN is bad.  This was not the assertion that
Dean made.

As I already mentioned, management review at ARIN should have occurred
after attendance at VON, to determine if the show was money well spent.
If such review has NOT occurred then I would encourage ARIN's board members
to request that ARIN's managers do it.  If such review DID occur then
perhaps we could have the conclusion of the management team posted here
as to whether the VON show attendance was worthwhile or not.

Ted



From tedm at ipinc.net  Tue Nov  6 15:34:01 2007
From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 12:34:01 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <369EB04A0951824ABE7D8BAC67AF9BB407857D74@CL-S-EX-1.stanleyassociates.com>
Message-ID: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOMEHIHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>



>-----Original Message-----
>From: Howard, W. Lee [mailto:Lee.Howard at stanleyassociates.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 7:07 AM
>To: Ted Mittelstaedt; Dean Anderson
>Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
>Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
>
>
>>  That is why it's important to have regular 
>> audits of these groups.  I would challenge you to investigate 
>> this, obtain and read the auditors report and see what they 
>> had to say.
>
>The auditor's report is available at
>http://www.arin.net/about_us/corp_docs/annual_rprt.html
>
>As reported at the Members Meeting, we are also having a
>separate audit of our financial controls, by an independent
>auditor, who provides no other services to ARIN.  We're not 
>required to do this, and in fact it's unusual for an 
>organization like ARIN to do so, but we want every possible 
>assurance that we have adequate controls.
>

Lee,

  Just a point here.  These audits are financial, not operational.
Has ARIN considered having an ISO management audit performed?  The
obvious one would be ISO 9001:2000 but they also have a new one -
ISO 27001:2005 that might be of interest.

Ted




From BillD at cait.wustl.edu  Tue Nov  6 16:05:01 2007
From: BillD at cait.wustl.edu (Bill Darte)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 15:05:01 -0600
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
References: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOIEHIHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <EACF8B735E9CBA4B8BAF9E4165D030871CBA29@ex1.cait.wustl.edu>


"Marketing" is a complicated issue.

The ppml has for years hosted comments about how limited a number of industry individuals are aware of ARIN, its role and the relevancy (directly or indirectly) of policies adopted. "Outreach" has been called for and ARIN has undertaken some of its outreach in response.

Measuring value by the number of ARIN trinkets distributed or the number of business cards collected is an attempt at being objective in its assessment of value, but it is more complicated than that.

Simple exposure is an important beginning to greater stakeholder involvement. Most large organizations do some form of awareness marketing and the benefits of these activities are very hard to measure.  One could argue that sponsorship of sporting events by organizations like Anheuser-Busch are 'junkets' for their corporate attendees, but a huge market share may indicate true value.  Yet ask anyone at a NASCAR event whether they drink Bud because of that sponsorship and the answer is likely to be NO.

It is hard enough to get people who are direct stakeholders(with allocations or assignments) of ARIN to participate let alone other's who are less directly involved but have an great impact upon the effectiveness of policy or those in the supply or consumer chain of these entities.

If more people are aware of ARIN and its role, then they will determine for themselves whether they should become involved.  Clearly those participating in the tradeshows have trouble getting attendees to stop and become engaged in the message then they will no longer visit that show.  It's common sense.

Anyone who has ever stood on hard concrete all day(s) at a tradeshow hawking a product or service know that it is a hard job and one they would prefer not to do without much success.  Having done so in various jobs and capacities in times past, the word 'junket' doesn't come to mind when I am reminded.

Any exposure that proves effective in engaging a larger stakeholder base in the policy development process is a good thing.  Certainly one may question the ROI of each endeavor and I am confident the professionals at ARIN do so much more effectively by their presence than we might by reviewing the 'numbers' they may collect and distribute.

Bill Darte
Washington University in St. Louis
ARIN AC





Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

Attendance at a tradeshow to further the technical understanding of the
Internet is fine.  However, if no "furthering of the technical
understanding"
is taking place, then attendance at such a show is a waste of time and
money.

The effacy of ARIN's attendance at any of these trade shows - like VON - is
a
metric that is EASILY measured.  I already suggested some of the ways to do
it
- such as taking down names, or taking business cards, etc. AT THE SHOW.

If the metrics for attendance at a particular show do NOT bear out the
requirement of the charter that education of the Internet community is
taking place, then ARIN should not continue attending the show in the
future.
There are plenty of other shows out there to attend.

Dean is arguing about ARIN's attendance at a specific show - VON.  Too
many responders on this list seem to be responding to an assertion that
ALL tradeshow attendance by ARIN is bad.  This was not the assertion that
Dean made.

As I already mentioned, management review at ARIN should have occurred
after attendance at VON, to determine if the show was money well spent.
If such review has NOT occurred then I would encourage ARIN's board members
to request that ARIN's managers do it.  If such review DID occur then
perhaps we could have the conclusion of the management team posted here
as to whether the VON show attendance was worthwhile or not.

Ted

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From jradel at vantage.com  Tue Nov  6 16:05:22 2007
From: jradel at vantage.com (Jon Radel)
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:05:22 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOIEHIHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>
References: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOIEHIHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <4730D712.7060704@vantage.com>



Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>
> Dean is arguing about ARIN's attendance at a specific show - VON.  Too
> many responders on this list seem to be responding to an assertion that
> ALL tradeshow attendance by ARIN is bad.  This was not the assertion that
> Dean made.
>
>
>   
possibly overlooking the mail where

Dean Anderson wrote:
>
> I guess I wasn't clear. One conference would be a one-time mistake.
> The one conference I cited was the one where I had some personal
> experience to relate. But I understand they've been at VON several
> times.  There are apparently other trips under the banner of
> 'educational outreach'. These add up to a $1.2 million dollar travel
> item; approximately $400,000 more the prior year's travel expenses. If
> they are all as educational as this VON conference, then none of them
> are legitimate. The Nanog transfer was also asserted to be "educational
> outreach".  These are not genuine efforts at education, but junkets. In
> the case of Nanog, assistance to cronies of Board Members.
I've also gone through the thread again and can't find anybody expanding
the scope to all tradeshow attendance until you just did.  However, Dean
certainly didn't limit his point to VON.


Might I suggest, and y'all are free to ignore me just a completely as
you wish :-), that coming up with metrics, such as those Ted has
suggested, to measure the effectiveness of expenditures as ARIN attempts
to fulfill its organizational mandates, rather than the personal concern
over one conference leading, through a process that I have trouble
following, to a $400,000 strawman, would be a more productive way to
spend the time.  Probably, however, in all honesty, less amusing.

--Jon Radel


From dean at av8.net  Thu Nov  8 16:55:59 2007
From: dean at av8.net (Dean Anderson)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 16:55:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN-Discuss?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711081654210.24361-100000@citation2.av8.net>

Hello, 

There are no messages after November 6th. That's two days and no
traffic. I've sent 3 since then.  Archives also show no traffic since
the 6th, nor the messages I sent yesterday.

What's up with the list?

                --Dean



-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
617 344 9000   




From tedm at ipinc.net  Thu Nov  8 17:00:43 2007
From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 14:00:43 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN-Discuss?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711081654210.24361-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOIEIAHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>


We're all asleep.

Ted

>-----Original Message-----
>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Dean Anderson
>Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 1:56 PM
>To: John Curran; Paul Vixie; Howard, W. Lee
>Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
>Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN-Discuss?
>
>
>Hello, 
>
>There are no messages after November 6th. That's two days and no
>traffic. I've sent 3 since then.  Archives also show no traffic since
>the 6th, nor the messages I sent yesterday.
>
>What's up with the list?
>
>                --Dean
>
>
>
>-- 
>Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
>www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
>617 344 9000   
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>ARIN-Discuss
>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the 
>ARIN Discussion
>Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact 
>the ARIN Member
>Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>


From dean at av8.com  Wed Nov  7 16:07:40 2007
From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 16:07:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <4730D712.7060704@vantage.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711071557430.17651-100000@sr22.av8.net>

> I've also gone through the thread again and can't find anybody expanding
> the scope to all tradeshow attendance until you just did.  However, Dean
> certainly didn't limit his point to VON.

There are apparently multiple VON shows that ARIN has attended recently.  
VON has several shows a year. I'd say that shows that cater to
users/applications above protocol level 3 are inappropriate for ARIN to
place a staffed booth. I think invited talks are probably OK, so long as
the expenses are kept to a minimum.

> Might I suggest, and y'all are free to ignore me just a completely as
> you wish :-), that coming up with metrics, such as those Ted has
> suggested, to measure the effectiveness of expenditures as ARIN
> attempts to fulfill its organizational mandates, rather than the
> personal concern over one conference leading, through a process that I
> have trouble following, to a $400,000 strawman, would be a more
> productive way to spend the time.  Probably, however, in all honesty,
> less amusing.

$400,000 is the travel budget increase in activity in single year. This
is an amazing 46% increase. Such budget increases are unusual.  I don't
think there are all that many tradeshows that cater to the level 1-3
arena, and they haven't just begun.  ARIN was spending around $800k
previously on travel, and I'm not quite sure what that was for.

It would be helpful in ARIN would report what, precisely, it has spent
the $1.2 million travel budget doing.  How much was spent on each
tradeshow would be a good start.

		--Dean


-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
617 344 9000   





From dean at av8.com  Wed Nov  7 16:15:00 2007
From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 16:15:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <8C4A641905D89E4B87956814FE53C462012325BF@LAXEVS01.lax.corp.int.untd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711071516040.17651-100000@sr22.av8.net>

On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, Hutchison, Tine wrote:

> I think there's an underlying issue that you're failing to address (in
> the specific case of the expanded travel and outreach budget.)  The
> issue is "is VON contrary to the stated purpose of ARIN?"

Not exactly.  There are several issues supported by evidence cited in
previous messages. Let me try to summarize them without any drama:

First issue is "is having a staffed Booth at VON and other end-user
(lets say 'people/applications working above layer 3') oriented
tradeshows a proper expenditure of ARIN funds"  The answer is no.  
People who work and buy products above layer 3 don't have any choice
about layers 1-3. Educating them about ARIN's purpose in layer 2 isn't
productive for ARIN.

The second issue is "Was there proper justification for giving $50,000
to NANOG?"  This issue depends on 2 questions:
      1	Was something of like value received in return?
      2	Were there conflicts of interest?

1st question: Did ARIN get $50,000 worth of 'educational outreach' from
NANOG?  $50,000 will pay for a year at MIT or Stanford. It buys a lot of
"educational outreach". Its a lot of money.  ARIN did not get $50,000 in
'educational outreach' in return from Nanog.  Did this $50,000 gift to
NANOG benefit the ARIN membership in advancing the purposes of ARIN by
$50,000?  No. It didn't.

2nd question: Did ARIN Board Members have close involvements with NANOG
that presented a conflict of interest?  Yes, they did.

Therefore, in answer to the second issue, there was not proper
justification for the transfer of $50,000 to NANOG.


The third issue is whether Board Members should resign or be removed.  
That question depends on their credible ability to act as fiduciaries. A
fiduciary needs to act in the interests of someone or thing else. They
are entrusted with a large amount of money and assets that does not
belong to them.  Fiduciaries cannot be conflicted by self-interest.  
When they are conflicted, they need to be able to scrupulously separate
their own interests.  Failure to be scrupulous about the separation and
avoidance of conflict of interest is a disqualifying event. Fiduciaries
cannot associate with disreputable persons.  Fiduciaries need to have
the highest moral character and unassailable integrity.  People who are
credibly (as in Temporary Restraining Order obtained) charged with
intentional and negligent misrepresentation, extortion, and organized
crime are not really suitable as fiduciaries.

Are ARIN Board Members associated with persons previously suspected of
ties to organized crime?  Yes, they are.

Are persons with ties to organized crime, who have acted with conflicts
of interest, who have misled the internet community in the past,
suitable to be the fiduciaries of ARIN?  No, they aren't.


> Two of ARIN's purposes, as stated in their articles of incorporation
> (http://www.arin.net/about_us/corp_docs/artic_incorp.html) are:
> 
> 1) to increase and diffuse knowledge to the general public about the
> Internet in its broadest sense;
> 
> 2) to educate industry and the Internet community in order to further
> their technical understanding of the Internet;
> 
> These two lines - which are so critical as to warrant being the first
> purposes listed - seem to indicate that ARIN is justified in spending
> money to go to nearly any event where "the Internet community" or even
> "the general public" might attend.  
> 
> While this would justify ARIN going to pretty much any event, they seem
> to be restricting themselves to events relevant to people who operate
> the Internet.

Your reading of these as meaning "any event justified" is precisely what
shows that your reading is over-broad and uncontrolled.  Not every event
is a justifiable expense for ARIN.

> Your presence at VON proves that VON is in the range of relevant
> events.

_MY_ presence at VON was to assist a consulting client who does VOIP
carrier services. That had nothing to do with ARIN. My presence also had
nothing to do with Av8 Internet. I was at VON on my client's expense,
because I have experience with VOIP programming, billing, and other VOIP
engineering. I was not there on AV8's business.  And I saw no one else
there from even local ISPs who might deal with ARIN.

> Other people on the lest chiming in that they were also there
> reinforces that.

The "chiming in" of a few people is not a justification for the
expenditure of $1.2 million (~10% of the total budget) per year. It is
not a justification for even one staffed booth at one show.  You can't
spend money only because a few people want to. Something more
substantial is needed. It has to be in the reasonable interests of the 
organization to spend the money.

		--Dean

-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
617 344 9000   






From michael.dillon at bt.com  Fri Nov  9 04:24:28 2007
From: michael.dillon at bt.com (michael.dillon at bt.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:24:28 -0000
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711071516040.17651-100000@sr22.av8.net>
References: <8C4A641905D89E4B87956814FE53C462012325BF@LAXEVS01.lax.corp.int.untd.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0711071516040.17651-100000@sr22.av8.net>
Message-ID: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BB732@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>

> The answer is no.  
> People who work and buy products above layer 3 don't have any 
> choice about layers 1-3. Educating them about ARIN's purpose 
> in layer 2 isn't productive for ARIN.

You have a very poor understanding of business realities. 
Customers have an extraordinary influence over their
suppliers, if they exercise it by asking questions and
demanding features. The point is that companies whose
products do not support IPv6 will not be freely usable
in two to three years from now, therefore it is in their
customers' best interests to ask about IPv6 support now
in order to ensure that they are not stuck with unusable
products down the road. Customers tend to develop a
dependency on a vendor's products, and they tend to buy
stuff as an investment with the expectation of getting
several years use out of it.


> 1st question: Did ARIN get $50,000 worth of 'educational 
> outreach' from NANOG?  $50,000 will pay for a year at MIT or 
> Stanford.

What on earth to MIT and Stanford have to do with educational
outreach. The real measure is the number of attendees at NANOG
that can be reached compared to the number of attendees at
an ARIN meeting held without NANOG. By that measure, ARIN gets
a lot more bang for the buck with the joint meetings, well worth
$50,000.

> Are ARIN Board Members associated with persons previously 
> suspected of ties to organized crime?  Yes, they are.

Now you are in cloud cuckoo-land. Name names, or shut up!

This list was not created for you to fling around vague
accusations at all and sundry. It was created for *ALL*
ARIN members to discuss ARIN-specific issues such as fee
structures and internal policies.

--Michael Dillon


From michael.dillon at bt.com  Fri Nov  9 04:26:04 2007
From: michael.dillon at bt.com (michael.dillon at bt.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:26:04 -0000
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three per
	week
Message-ID: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BB738@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>


How many list members would be in favor of a policy, enforced by
software, which restricts anyone from posting to ARIN-discuss more than
once per day, with a further maximum of 3 postings per week?

-------------------------------------------------------
Michael Dillon
RadianzNet Capacity Management -- BT Design
66 Prescot St., London, E1 8HG, UK
Mobile: +44 7900 823 672 
Internet: michael.dillon at bt.com
Phone: +44 20 7650 9493 Fax: +44 20 7650 9030
http://www.btradianz.com
 
One Community One Connection One Focus 



From Gary.Allmond at do.treas.gov  Fri Nov  9 06:01:18 2007
From: Gary.Allmond at do.treas.gov (Gary.Allmond at do.treas.gov)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 06:01:18 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three
	per	week
In-Reply-To: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BB738@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
Message-ID: <29ACF8A4CC525A4EBD6E8BCAA3FD99F0011E09E9@D01EXC1P.do.treas.gov>

Though I really don't care for the number of postings at times, I think
that an arbitrary limit is not a good thing. This list server is a way
that we are able to share our opinions, rebut, as well as to defend
ourselves and our comments.

If we restrict the number of postings, a person may make a comment, then
he/she is open to public comments, both good and bad, without the
ability to defend themselves.

I am not a fan for some postings, but our society is built on the
ability to express ourselves.

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of
michael.dillon at bt.com
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 4:26 AM
To: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three
per week


How many list members would be in favor of a policy, enforced by
software, which restricts anyone from posting to ARIN-discuss more than
once per day, with a further maximum of 3 postings per week?

-------------------------------------------------------
Michael Dillon
RadianzNet Capacity Management -- BT Design
66 Prescot St., London, E1 8HG, UK
Mobile: +44 7900 823 672 
Internet: michael.dillon at bt.com
Phone: +44 20 7650 9493 Fax: +44 20 7650 9030
http://www.btradianz.com
 
One Community One Connection One Focus 

_______________________________________________
ARIN-Discuss
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
Discussion
Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the
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From BillD at cait.wustl.edu  Fri Nov  9 07:34:37 2007
From: BillD at cait.wustl.edu (Bill Darte)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 06:34:37 -0600
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and
	threeper	week
References: <29ACF8A4CC525A4EBD6E8BCAA3FD99F0011E09E9@D01EXC1P.do.treas.gov>
Message-ID: <EACF8B735E9CBA4B8BAF9E4165D030871CBA43@ex1.cait.wustl.edu>

Speaking for myself, I agree with Gary's message.

It is far more appropriate to have the community attempt to modulate nuisance posts than for ARIN seeming to stifle expression.
Not always successful and painful at times when some few try to dominate or refuse to cede when their message has been conveyed over and over and can't see the condition of the proverbial horse.

The ARIN AUP for this list is as follows:
    *  All correspondence must relate specifically to IP policy issues or ARIN business. Postings not directly related to these topics are prohibited.
    * Independent issues not affecting the larger IP community are not appropriate unless ARIN-specific, nor are comments of a personal nature.
    * Use or distribution of others' comments for any purpose other than to discuss relevant issues pertaining to IP policies is not permissible.
    * Any unprofessional or confrontational comments showing a lack of respect, such as using foul or abusive language or attacking someone's character, will not be tolerated.
    * Overuse of the privilege, flooding of e-mail messages, forwarding of bulk e-mail, or any other form of spamming is strictly prohibited.
    * Marketing of products or advertising of any kind, whether for business or employment purposes, is not allowed.
    * The promotion of political views is not appropriate.
    * Attempts to obtain e-mail addresses for any purpose other than for which the list was designed is prohibited.

I think the AUP might expresses the general notion that posters should consolidate their ideas, express them concisely, render evidence or examples when sending messages that are complicated or controversial, and limiting their impulse to repeat themselves, would all be good additions.  It should go without saying that personal attacks or name calling and slanderous accusations are out of place here as well as all decent places for frank and constructive discussion.

Bill Darte
Washington University in St. Louis



-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net on behalf of Gary.Allmond at do.treas.gov
Sent: Fri 11/9/2007 5:01 AM
To: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and threeper	week
 
Though I really don't care for the number of postings at times, I think
that an arbitrary limit is not a good thing. This list server is a way
that we are able to share our opinions, rebut, as well as to defend
ourselves and our comments.

If we restrict the number of postings, a person may make a comment, then
he/she is open to public comments, both good and bad, without the
ability to defend themselves.

I am not a fan for some postings, but our society is built on the
ability to express ourselves.

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of
michael.dillon at bt.com
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 4:26 AM
To: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three
per week


How many list members would be in favor of a policy, enforced by
software, which restricts anyone from posting to ARIN-discuss more than
once per day, with a further maximum of 3 postings per week?

-------------------------------------------------------
Michael Dillon
RadianzNet Capacity Management -- BT Design
66 Prescot St., London, E1 8HG, UK
Mobile: +44 7900 823 672 
Internet: michael.dillon at bt.com
Phone: +44 20 7650 9493 Fax: +44 20 7650 9030
http://www.btradianz.com
 
One Community One Connection One Focus 

_______________________________________________
ARIN-Discuss
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
Discussion
Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the
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Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
_______________________________________________
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You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion
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From owen at delong.com  Fri Nov  9 08:00:48 2007
From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 05:00:48 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three
	per week
In-Reply-To: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BB738@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
References: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BB738@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
Message-ID: <1F61C215-4C1A-4F61-854B-55B8694C3C01@delong.com>

I would oppose such a policy.

Owen

On Nov 9, 2007, at 1:26 AM, <michael.dillon at bt.com> wrote:

>
> How many list members would be in favor of a policy, enforced by
> software, which restricts anyone from posting to ARIN-discuss more  
> than
> once per day, with a further maximum of 3 postings per week?
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Michael Dillon
> RadianzNet Capacity Management -- BT Design
> 66 Prescot St., London, E1 8HG, UK
> Mobile: +44 7900 823 672
> Internet: michael.dillon at bt.com
> Phone: +44 20 7650 9493 Fax: +44 20 7650 9030
> http://www.btradianz.com
>
> One Community One Connection One Focus
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-Discuss
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the  
> ARIN Discussion
> Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact  
> the ARIN Member
> Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.



From david.picard at sogetel.com  Fri Nov  9 08:25:49 2007
From: david.picard at sogetel.com (David Picard)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 08:25:49 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and
	threeper	week
In-Reply-To: <29ACF8A4CC525A4EBD6E8BCAA3FD99F0011E09E9@D01EXC1P.do.treas.gov>
Message-ID: <BFEAJLBEENOMPDBLCKBEGEMFEPAA.david.picard@sogetel.com>

I agree with you Gary

Regards

David Picard
---------------------------------------------
Administrateur reseau / Network administrator
Internet Galilee
www.sogetel.net

david.picard at sogetel.com
1-866-764-3835 x1271
1-819-293-1271



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document est interdite sans notre consentement."


-----Message d'origine-----
De : arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]De la part de
Gary.Allmond at do.treas.gov
Envoye : 9 novembre 2007 06:01
A : arin-discuss at arin.net
Objet : Re: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and
threeper week


Though I really don't care for the number of postings at times, I think
that an arbitrary limit is not a good thing. This list server is a way
that we are able to share our opinions, rebut, as well as to defend
ourselves and our comments.

If we restrict the number of postings, a person may make a comment, then
he/she is open to public comments, both good and bad, without the
ability to defend themselves.

I am not a fan for some postings, but our society is built on the
ability to express ourselves.

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of
michael.dillon at bt.com
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 4:26 AM
To: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three
per week


How many list members would be in favor of a policy, enforced by
software, which restricts anyone from posting to ARIN-discuss more than
once per day, with a further maximum of 3 postings per week?

-------------------------------------------------------
Michael Dillon
RadianzNet Capacity Management -- BT Design
66 Prescot St., London, E1 8HG, UK
Mobile: +44 7900 823 672
Internet: michael.dillon at bt.com
Phone: +44 20 7650 9493 Fax: +44 20 7650 9030
http://www.btradianz.com

One Community One Connection One Focus

_______________________________________________
ARIN-Discuss
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
Discussion
Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the
ARIN Member
Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
_______________________________________________
ARIN-Discuss
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
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From linda at sat-tel.com  Fri Nov  9 08:38:41 2007
From: linda at sat-tel.com (Linda)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 08:38:41 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three
	perweek
References: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BB738@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
Message-ID: <00fd01c822d5$d7c61300$966600d0@accountsrec>

I would not be in favor of such a policy.

Regards,
Linda Werner

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <michael.dillon at bt.com>
To: <arin-discuss at arin.net>
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 4:26 AM
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three 
perweek


>
> How many list members would be in favor of a policy, enforced by
> software, which restricts anyone from posting to ARIN-discuss more than
> once per day, with a further maximum of 3 postings per week?
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Michael Dillon
> RadianzNet Capacity Management -- BT Design
> 66 Prescot St., London, E1 8HG, UK
> Mobile: +44 7900 823 672
> Internet: michael.dillon at bt.com
> Phone: +44 20 7650 9493 Fax: +44 20 7650 9030
> http://www.btradianz.com
>
> One Community One Connection One Focus
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-Discuss
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN 
> Discussion
> Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the 
> ARIN Member
> Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>
> 




From craig.finseth at state.mn.us  Fri Nov  9 08:48:08 2007
From: craig.finseth at state.mn.us (Craig Finseth)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 07:48:08 -0600
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and
	three	perweek
In-Reply-To: <00fd01c822d5$d7c61300$966600d0@accountsrec> (linda@sat-tel.com)
References: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BB738@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
	<00fd01c822d5$d7c61300$966600d0@accountsrec>
Message-ID: <200711091348.lA9Dm8rv002789@inana.itg.state.mn.us>

   > How many list members would be in favor of a policy, enforced by
   > software, which restricts anyone from posting to ARIN-discuss more than
   > once per day, with a further maximum of 3 postings per week?

Since there can be multiple threads of discussion at a time, everyone
would have to hold off their 1/day until the very end of the day, so
as to ensure that they didn't use it up on the wrong thread.

And no one would send anything on Monday or Tuesday...

With everyone doing this, discussion would be pretty much torpedoed.

Craig


From jcurran at istaff.org  Fri Nov  9 08:58:33 2007
From: jcurran at istaff.org (John Curran)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 08:58:33 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711071516040.17651-100000@sr22.av8.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711071516040.17651-100000@sr22.av8.net>
Message-ID: <p0624080cc35a1160a456@[192.168.3.76]>

At 4:15 PM -0500 11/7/07, Dean Anderson wrote:
>The second issue is "Was there proper justification for giving $50,000
>to NANOG?"  This issue depends on 2 questions:
>      1	Was something of like value received in return?
>      2	Were there conflicts of interest?
>...
>Did this $50,000 gift to NANOG benefit the ARIN membership in advancing the purposes of ARIN by
>$50,000?  No. It didn't.

Dean -
 
   The ARIN contribution to NANOG pays for the audio/video
   recording of the NANOG meetings and real-time distribution
   which allows for community remote participation (and one
   hopes an improved awareness of operational matters such
   as real-world routing table issues, etc.)   There are three
   meetings annually, and both staff and equipment costs to
   be covered to make this happen.

   This was moved in the 10 Jan 2004 Board meeting and
   passed with Mr. Woodcock abstaining.  Mr. Vixie was not
   a member of the ARIN Board at that time.  Minutes of
   all the ARIN Board meetings are available online at
   <http://www.arin.net/meetings/minutes/bot/>

   I'd like to thank you for your concern on this matter,
   but do not believe that there is an actual issue to be
   addressed.

Thanks,
/John

John Curran
Chair, ARIN Board of Trustees


From jcurran at istaff.org  Fri Nov  9 09:21:40 2007
From: jcurran at istaff.org (John Curran)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:21:40 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Audits
In-Reply-To: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOMEHIHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>
References: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOMEHIHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <p0624080fc35a1ad6dbf9@[192.168.3.76]>

At 12:34 PM -0800 11/6/07, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>Just a point here.  These audits are financial, not operational.
>Has ARIN considered having an ISO management audit performed?

Ted -
 
   ARIN's been expanding the scope of its audits beyond
   simply the financial statements, and has in fact done
   both a financial controls and business processes audit.
 
   Your suggestion of expanding into management and
   operational controls audit will be brought up at the
   next regular board meeting for discussion.

Thanks!
/John

Chair, ARIN Board of Trustees



From paul at vix.com  Fri Nov  9 10:20:38 2007
From: paul at vix.com (Paul Vixie)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 15:20:38 +0000
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three
	per week
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 09 Nov 2007 09:26:04 GMT."
	<D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BB738@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
References: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BB738@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
Message-ID: <42336.1194621638@sa.vix.com>

> How many list members would be in favor of a policy, enforced by software,
> which restricts anyone from posting to ARIN-discuss more than once per day,
> with a further maximum of 3 postings per week?

i'd be opposed.  while a per-person quota can drastically improve the quality
of a forum, that quota should be self-imposed.  i think a membership
association like ARIN needs at least one open forum.



From bmanning at vacation.karoshi.com  Fri Nov  9 11:04:55 2007
From: bmanning at vacation.karoshi.com (bmanning at vacation.karoshi.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 16:04:55 +0000
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three
	per week
In-Reply-To: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BB738@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
References: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BB738@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
Message-ID: <20071109160455.GA9009@vacation.karoshi.com.>


 could you live w/ that restriction?

--bill


On Fri, Nov 09, 2007 at 09:26:04AM -0000, michael.dillon at bt.com wrote:
> 
> How many list members would be in favor of a policy, enforced by
> software, which restricts anyone from posting to ARIN-discuss more than
> once per day, with a further maximum of 3 postings per week?
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Michael Dillon
> RadianzNet Capacity Management -- BT Design
> 66 Prescot St., London, E1 8HG, UK
> Mobile: +44 7900 823 672 
> Internet: michael.dillon at bt.com
> Phone: +44 20 7650 9493 Fax: +44 20 7650 9030
> http://www.btradianz.com
>  
> One Community One Connection One Focus 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-Discuss
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion
> Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member
> Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.


From ipgoddess at gmail.com  Fri Nov  9 10:58:28 2007
From: ipgoddess at gmail.com (Stacy Taylor)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 07:58:28 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three
	per week
In-Reply-To: <42336.1194621638@sa.vix.com>
References: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BB738@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
	<42336.1194621638@sa.vix.com>
Message-ID: <1c16a4870711090758m1ba12a6as3cedf1d3cf88913@mail.gmail.com>

I am likewise opposed to such a policy.
Stacy

On Nov 9, 2007 7:20 AM, Paul Vixie <paul at vix.com> wrote:
> > How many list members would be in favor of a policy, enforced by software,
> > which restricts anyone from posting to ARIN-discuss more than once per day,
> > with a further maximum of 3 postings per week?
>
> i'd be opposed.  while a per-person quota can drastically improve the quality
> of a forum, that quota should be self-imposed.  i think a membership
> association like ARIN needs at least one open forum.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-Discuss
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion
> Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member
> Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>



-- 
:):)
/S


From michael.dillon at bt.com  Fri Nov  9 11:21:47 2007
From: michael.dillon at bt.com (michael.dillon at bt.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 16:21:47 -0000
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three
	per week
In-Reply-To: <42336.1194621638@sa.vix.com>
References: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BB738@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
	<42336.1194621638@sa.vix.com>
Message-ID: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BBAE2@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>


> i think a membership association like ARIN 
> needs at least one open forum.

To my mind, that is PPML, not the members list.
My suggestion was specifically targeted at the
members mailing-list not at any other list.

--Michael Dillon


From paul at vix.com  Fri Nov  9 13:23:18 2007
From: paul at vix.com (Paul Vixie)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 18:23:18 +0000
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three
	per week
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 09 Nov 2007 16:21:47 GMT."
	<D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BBAE2@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
References: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BB738@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
	<42336.1194621638@sa.vix.com>
	<D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BBAE2@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
Message-ID: <92692.1194632598@sa.vix.com>

> > i think a membership association like ARIN 
> > needs at least one open forum.
> 
> To my mind, that is PPML, not the members list.
> My suggestion was specifically targeted at the
> members mailing-list not at any other list.

i still don't like it.  you'd essentially say that
anyone who wanted to be able to freely address
comments to arin's membership, also had to address
those comments to the public.  ppml is a public
forum.  i'm talking about an open membership forum,
which is what arin-discuss@ currently is.


From tedm at ipinc.net  Fri Nov  9 13:30:56 2007
From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 10:30:56 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three
	perweek
In-Reply-To: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BB738@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
Message-ID: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOCEIDHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>



>-----Original Message-----
>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of michael.dillon at bt.com
>Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 1:26 AM
>To: arin-discuss at arin.net
>Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three
>perweek
>
>
>
>How many list members would be in favor of a policy, enforced by
>software, which restricts anyone from posting to ARIN-discuss more than
>once per day, with a further maximum of 3 postings per week?

But Burgermeister, meister-burger!  Your breaking your own law!

(apologies to the Rankin Bass special ;-))

Oh no, not another bikeshed discussion!  Michael, look, we all know
that you have a pretty tough sociology class this term - but it's a cheap
shot to use the list as a proving ground for one of your term papers.

Ted


From steve at ibctech.ca  Fri Nov  9 13:39:18 2007
From: steve at ibctech.ca (Steve Bertrand)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 13:39:18 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three
 per week
In-Reply-To: <92692.1194632598@sa.vix.com>
References: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BB738@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>	<42336.1194621638@sa.vix.com>	<D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BBAE2@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
	<92692.1194632598@sa.vix.com>
Message-ID: <4734A956.7020709@ibctech.ca>

> i still don't like it.  you'd essentially say that
> anyone who wanted to be able to freely address
> comments to arin's membership, also had to address
> those comments to the public.  ppml is a public
> forum.  i'm talking about an open membership forum,
> which is what arin-discuss@ currently is.

Either that, or discussions would get extremely fragmented.

If a member felt they *needed* to reply a message and were over their
quota, they would likely do a reply-all and remove the -discuss list.

This would most likely cause even more confusion and frustration than
what is present now as nobody would be able to follow an entire thread
in it's entirety.

I wouldn't even go as far as to say moderation would be better, as then
you would have a governing body who at it's sole discretion could decide
whether a member's comment was appropriate or not.

It's up to the members to decide whether another member's opinion is
valid and appropriate. Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion, and
limiting and/or blocking someones opinion would (IMHO) detract from the
purpose of this list entirely.

Steve


From tedm at ipinc.net  Fri Nov  9 13:41:02 2007
From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 10:41:02 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and threeper
	week
In-Reply-To: <92692.1194632598@sa.vix.com>
Message-ID: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOGEIDHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>



>-----Original Message-----
>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Paul Vixie
>Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 10:23 AM
>To: michael.dillon at bt.com
>Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and
>threeper week
>
>
>> > i think a membership association like ARIN 
>> > needs at least one open forum.
>> 
>> To my mind, that is PPML, not the members list.
>> My suggestion was specifically targeted at the
>> members mailing-list not at any other list.
>
>i still don't like it.  you'd essentially say that
>anyone who wanted to be able to freely address
>comments to arin's membership, also had to address
>those comments to the public.  ppml is a public
>forum.  i'm talking about an open membership forum,
>which is what arin-discuss@ currently is.

Hey, I think we have consensus!  Chair, please call for
a vote - motion is seconded - all in favor aye, all
opposed nay, NAY, the nay's have it, motion carried,
signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost,
found, subjected to public enquiry, lost again, and
buried in soft peat for three months and recycled
as a firelighter!

So it's official!  End of discussion.  I wonder what
the cafeteria has on special today....


Ted


From HRyu at norlight.com  Fri Nov  9 13:45:18 2007
From: HRyu at norlight.com (Hyunseog Ryu)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 12:45:18 -0600
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and
	three	per week
In-Reply-To: <1c16a4870711090758m1ba12a6as3cedf1d3cf88913@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OFEB39B973.BFDD146C-ON8625738E.0066E429-8625738E.00670692@norlight.com>

I'm against such policy to limit the number of posting per member, too.
This may discourage members, so they think not to post to ARIN mailing 
list at all. 


Hyun

Hyunseog Ryu
Senior Network Engineer
Norlight , Inc. as a part of Q-Comm Company
Applications Engineering
13935 Bishops Drive
Brookfield, WI 53005 
Phone. +1-262-792-7965
Fax. +1-262-792-7733
Email. hryu at norlight.com




"Stacy Taylor" <ipgoddess at gmail.com> 
Sent by: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
11/09/2007 09:58 AM

To
"Paul Vixie" <paul at vix.com>
cc
arin-discuss at arin.net
Fax to

Subject
Re: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three per week






I am likewise opposed to such a policy.
Stacy

On Nov 9, 2007 7:20 AM, Paul Vixie <paul at vix.com> wrote:
> > How many list members would be in favor of a policy, enforced by 
software,
> > which restricts anyone from posting to ARIN-discuss more than once per 
day,
> > with a further maximum of 3 postings per week?
>
> i'd be opposed.  while a per-person quota can drastically improve the 
quality
> of a forum, that quota should be self-imposed.  i think a membership
> association like ARIN needs at least one open forum.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-Discuss
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN 
Discussion
> Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the 
ARIN Member
> Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>



-- 
:):)
/S
_______________________________________________
ARIN-Discuss
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN 
Discussion
Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the 
ARIN Member
Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.

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From miguel at wlcom.com.mx  Fri Nov  9 13:48:11 2007
From: miguel at wlcom.com.mx (Miguel Betancourt)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 10:48:11 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] REMOVE
References: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BB738@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>	<42336.1194621638@sa.vix.com>	<D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BBAE2@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net><92692.1194632598@sa.vix.com>
	<4734A956.7020709@ibctech.ca>
Message-ID: <003901c82301$1412e060$0100a8c0@wl8278be2a1d75>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Bertrand" <steve at ibctech.ca>
To: "Paul Vixie" <paul at vix.com>
Cc: <arin-discuss at arin.net>
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three 
per week


>> i still don't like it.  you'd essentially say that
>> anyone who wanted to be able to freely address
>> comments to arin's membership, also had to address
>> those comments to the public.  ppml is a public
>> forum.  i'm talking about an open membership forum,
>> which is what arin-discuss@ currently is.
>
> Either that, or discussions would get extremely fragmented.
>
> If a member felt they *needed* to reply a message and were over their
> quota, they would likely do a reply-all and remove the -discuss list.
>
> This would most likely cause even more confusion and frustration than
> what is present now as nobody would be able to follow an entire thread
> in it's entirety.
>
> I wouldn't even go as far as to say moderation would be better, as then
> you would have a governing body who at it's sole discretion could decide
> whether a member's comment was appropriate or not.
>
> It's up to the members to decide whether another member's opinion is
> valid and appropriate. Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion, and
> limiting and/or blocking someones opinion would (IMHO) detract from the
> purpose of this list entirely.
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-Discuss
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN 
> Discussion
> Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the 
> ARIN Member
> Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. 



From jreyes3 at prtcmail.prtc.net  Fri Nov  9 13:55:27 2007
From: jreyes3 at prtcmail.prtc.net (Julio Reyes)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:55:27 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss]  REMOVE
Message-ID: <OF85F82A84.46C9DA69-ON0425738E.0067E9E4-0425738E.0067FF9C@prtcmail.prtc.net>

Remove please

__________________



----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Bertrand" <steve at ibctech.ca>
To: "Paul Vixie" <paul at vix.com>
Cc: <arin-discuss at arin.net>
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three
per week


>> i still don't like it.  you'd essentially say that
>> anyone who wanted to be able to freely address
>> comments to arin's membership, also had to address
>> those comments to the public.  ppml is a public
>> forum.  i'm talking about an open membership forum,
>> which is what arin-discuss@ currently is.
>
> Either that, or discussions would get extremely fragmented.
>
> If a member felt they *needed* to reply a message and were over their
> quota, they would likely do a reply-all and remove the -discuss list.
>
> This would most likely cause even more confusion and frustration than
> what is present now as nobody would be able to follow an entire thread
> in it's entirety.
>
> I wouldn't even go as far as to say moderation would be better, as then
> you would have a governing body who at it's sole discretion could decide
> whether a member's comment was appropriate or not.
>
> It's up to the members to decide whether another member's opinion is
> valid and appropriate. Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion, and
> limiting and/or blocking someones opinion would (IMHO) detract from the
> purpose of this list entirely.
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-Discuss
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
> Discussion
> Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the
> ARIN Member
> Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.

_______________________________________________
ARIN-Discuss
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN 
Discussion
Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the 
ARIN Member
Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
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From michael.dillon at bt.com  Fri Nov  9 14:00:20 2007
From: michael.dillon at bt.com (michael.dillon at bt.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 19:00:20 -0000
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three
	per week
In-Reply-To: <92692.1194632598@sa.vix.com>
References: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BB738@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
	<42336.1194621638@sa.vix.com>
	<D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BBAE2@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
	<92692.1194632598@sa.vix.com>
Message-ID: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BBBA2@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>

> i'm talking about an open 
> membership forum, which is what arin-discuss@ currently is.

Sorry, but you are wrong. The only open membership forum that
I am currently aware of is the stuff that ARIN mails out
(using postal mail) prior to a members meeting.

Lots of members do not have representatives subscribed to
this list. A while back, ARIN staff made some kind of offer
to members to join the list but when some traffic appeared
on the list there was a flurry of attempts to unsubscribe
because many of these member reps simply were not prepared
for, or do not have the time for, a free for all discussion.

So while ARIN-DISCUSS may be an open forum, in the free-for-all
sense, I don't consider it to be a membership forum because
posting here does not reach all members.

--Michael Dillon
 


From ml at t-b-o-h.net  Fri Nov  9 09:01:51 2007
From: ml at t-b-o-h.net (Tuc at T-B-O-H.NET)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:01:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three per
Message-ID: <200711091401.lA9E1pRA021067@himinbjorg.tucs-beachin-obx-house.com>

> 
> 
> How many list members would be in favor of a policy, enforced by
> software, which restricts anyone from posting to ARIN-discuss more than
> once per day, with a further maximum of 3 postings per week?
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Michael Dillon
> RadianzNet Capacity Management -- BT Design


/me asks Michael to recline on the couch as I get my pipe out and a notepad....

So Michael, where is this coming from? Whats prompting you to make this 
inquiry.....

Actually, if I was to take a SWAG at it, I think I know...

Michael, maybe we need to ask ARIN for a new list. Maybe it could be
called one of the following:

arin-beat-a-dead-horse
arin-drone-on-about
arin-theres-no-end
arin-gone-past-operational-discuss

Maybe we just need a system whereby if a 2/3 vote of the subscribers
feels a thread has gone past its operational content, the listdaddies
step in an kill it.

Or, as has been said alot of time before.... I'm completely offbase
(And about this issue too. ;) )

			Tuc/TBOH
PS - At face value, I vote no to the original request.


From BillD at cait.wustl.edu  Fri Nov  9 14:02:56 2007
From: BillD at cait.wustl.edu (Bill Darte)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 13:02:56 -0600
Subject: [arin-discuss] REMOVE
References: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BB738@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>	<42336.1194621638@sa.vix.com>	<D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BBAE2@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net><92692.1194632598@sa.vix.com>
	<4734A956.7020709@ibctech.ca>
	<003901c82301$1412e060$0100a8c0@wl8278be2a1d75>
Message-ID: <EACF8B735E9CBA4B8BAF9E4165D030871CBA48@ex1.cait.wustl.edu>

Evidence on point....

Miguel wishes to be removed from this list...and this banter and the lack of constructive discussion is likely to do more harm in the future....

Miguel, I ask you to reconsider your interest in being removed.  Please give this list another chance.

But, if later (or now if you must) want to be removed from the list, you must follow the instructions at:

http://www.arin.net/mailing_lists/index.html

Bill Darte
ARIN Advisory Council


-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net on behalf of Miguel Betancourt
Sent: Fri 11/9/2007 12:48 PM
To: Steve Bertrand; Paul Vixie
Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: [arin-discuss] REMOVE
 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Bertrand" <steve at ibctech.ca>
To: "Paul Vixie" <paul at vix.com>
Cc: <arin-discuss at arin.net>
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three 
per week


>> i still don't like it.  you'd essentially say that
>> anyone who wanted to be able to freely address
>> comments to arin's membership, also had to address
>> those comments to the public.  ppml is a public
>> forum.  i'm talking about an open membership forum,
>> which is what arin-discuss@ currently is.
>
> Either that, or discussions would get extremely fragmented.
>
> If a member felt they *needed* to reply a message and were over their
> quota, they would likely do a reply-all and remove the -discuss list.
>
> This would most likely cause even more confusion and frustration than
> what is present now as nobody would be able to follow an entire thread
> in it's entirety.
>
> I wouldn't even go as far as to say moderation would be better, as then
> you would have a governing body who at it's sole discretion could decide
> whether a member's comment was appropriate or not.
>
> It's up to the members to decide whether another member's opinion is
> valid and appropriate. Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion, and
> limiting and/or blocking someones opinion would (IMHO) detract from the
> purpose of this list entirely.
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-Discuss
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN 
> Discussion
> Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the 
> ARIN Member
> Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. 

_______________________________________________
ARIN-Discuss
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion
Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
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From dean at av8.com  Fri Nov  9 14:16:34 2007
From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:16:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <p0624080cc35a1160a456@[192.168.3.76]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091339410.24660-100000@citation2.av8.net>

On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, John Curran wrote:

> >Did this $50,000 gift to NANOG benefit the ARIN membership in advancing the purposes of ARIN by
> >$50,000?  No. It didn't.
> 
> Dean -
>  
>    The ARIN contribution to NANOG pays for the audio/video
>    recording of the NANOG meetings and real-time distribution
>    which allows for community remote participation (and one
>    hopes an improved awareness of operational matters such
>    as real-world routing table issues, etc.)   There are three
>    meetings annually, and both staff and equipment costs to
>    be covered to make this happen.

This describes _NANOG_ activites, not ARIN educational outreach.  Merit
should fund Nanog activities, not ARIN.  NANOG has apparently been
unable to get community support for its funding, apparently for very
good reason.  NANOG cronies are using ARIN improperly to fund and
support NANOG. This support for NANOG is improper.

Evidence has already been given that NANOG isn't really concerned about
"real-world routing issues", but is instead promoting the private
business interests of the 50 or so core participants, who include ARIN
Board Members. These business interests include (but aren't limited to)  
stateful anycast promotion, promotion of illegal email access, and
promotion of anti-spam operations against competitors of their spam
business.  This is probably why NANOG can't obtain its own funds,
properly.


The minutes also have a reference "Due to Merit's requirements for the
contribution,"  What were Merit's requirements for contribution?

>    This was moved in the 10 Jan 2004 Board meeting and
>    passed with Mr. Woodcock abstaining.  Mr. Vixie was not
>    a member of the ARIN Board at that time.  Minutes of
>    all the ARIN Board meetings are available online at
>    <http://www.arin.net/meetings/minutes/bot/>

The Jan 10 minutes show that the motion was made by Ray Plzak and
seconded by David Conrad.

I note that David Conrad shares office space with Paul Vixie, and also
participates in NANOG.  Conrad is conflicted.  Manning was absent from
the meeting, but is conflicted.  Curran is conflicted.  All these people
are closely connected to Vixie, who is reasonably suspected of ties to
organized crime because of the TRO.  I don't know about Plzak, yet.

Also, The IESG was discovered to have a policy where conflicted members
participate in discussions, but "abstain from voting". This is not
recusal, which requires no participation.  Did Mr. Woodcock actually
recuse himself? Or did he merely not vote while participating in the
discussion and influencing the decision?  Same question for Mr. Manning, 
who was not present for the vote?

>    I'd like to thank you for your concern on this matter,
>    but do not believe that there is an actual issue to be
>    addressed.

I notice the Jan 10 agenda has this issue buried in the part on
"Discussion of Indemnification". As hard as you are trying to sweep this
under the table, I'm not convinced.  I smell smoke and I'd like to put
out the fire....

We still have 4 conflicted Board Members and no ARIN educational
benefit.

		--Dean

-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
617 344 9000   




From tburling at tulix.com  Fri Nov  9 14:20:38 2007
From: tburling at tulix.com (Tom Burling)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:20:38 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] REMOVE
In-Reply-To: <EACF8B735E9CBA4B8BAF9E4165D030871CBA48@ex1.cait.wustl.edu>
Message-ID: <000501c82305$9deef130$6a02a8c0@TBURLINGXP>

Though I generally don't say anything, I read the postings/e-mails as
they come through.  Needless to say this is not the important advisement
forum I was sold when it was time to sign up. I would suggest the
establishment of a true ARIN forum instead of this e-mail exchange.  The
software is available from various sources; just add it to the site with
the same controls and multiple threads as most other discussion forums.
This would avail an opportunity for all members to participate, and keep
all of us from having to put up with our inboxes being filled with inane
chatter.
 
Just a thought,
Thomas R. Burling, CFO
Tulix System, Inc.
55 Marietta Street
Suite 1740
Atlanta, GA 30303
O: (404) 584.5035 x 223
F: (404) 584.5079
C: (770) 815.7075
tburling at tulix.com
AIM: OldFodder

TULIX:TOMORROW'S TECHNOLOGY TODAY
___________________________________________

See The Latest Intelligent Applications For Broadband Providers Built By
Tulix;
 
http://demo4.tulix.com, http://www.tulix.com/boss.php,
http://www.cellwebtown.com, http://www.musicwebtown.com,
http://www.photowebtown.com, http://www.videowebtown.com
http://www.backupwebtown.com, http://www.streamwebtown.com


-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Bill Darte
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 2:03 PM
To: Miguel Betancourt; Steve Bertrand; Paul Vixie
Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] REMOVE
 
Evidence on point....

Miguel wishes to be removed from this list...and this banter and the
lack of constructive discussion is likely to do more harm in the
future....

Miguel, I ask you to reconsider your interest in being removed.  Please
give this list another chance.

But, if later (or now if you must) want to be removed from the list, you
must follow the instructions at:

http://www.arin.net/mailing_lists/index.html

Bill Darte
ARIN Advisory Council


-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net on behalf of Miguel Betancourt
Sent: Fri 11/9/2007 12:48 PM
To: Steve Bertrand; Paul Vixie
Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: [arin-discuss] REMOVE


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Bertrand" <steve at ibctech.ca>
To: "Paul Vixie" <paul at vix.com>
Cc: <arin-discuss at arin.net>
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and
three
per week


>> i still don't like it.  you'd essentially say that
>> anyone who wanted to be able to freely address
>> comments to arin's membership, also had to address
>> those comments to the public.  ppml is a public
>> forum.  i'm talking about an open membership forum,
>> which is what arin-discuss@ currently is.
>
> Either that, or discussions would get extremely fragmented.
>
> If a member felt they *needed* to reply a message and were over their
> quota, they would likely do a reply-all and remove the -discuss list.
>
> This would most likely cause even more confusion and frustration than
> what is present now as nobody would be able to follow an entire thread
> in it's entirety.
>
> I wouldn't even go as far as to say moderation would be better, as
then
> you would have a governing body who at it's sole discretion could
decide
> whether a member's comment was appropriate or not.
>
> It's up to the members to decide whether another member's opinion is
> valid and appropriate. Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion,
and
> limiting and/or blocking someones opinion would (IMHO) detract from
the
> purpose of this list entirely.
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-Discuss
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
> Discussion
> Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the
> ARIN Member
> Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.

_______________________________________________
ARIN-Discuss
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
Discussion
Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
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E 
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From lambert at psc.edu  Fri Nov  9 14:22:31 2007
From: lambert at psc.edu (Michael Lambert)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:22:31 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three
	per week
In-Reply-To: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BB738@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
References: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BB738@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
Message-ID: <A7B1568A-51C6-41BB-858E-84C8D0A8D312@psc.edu>

On 9 Nov 2007, at 04:26, <michael.dillon at bt.com>  
<michael.dillon at bt.com> wrote:

> How many list members would be in favor of a policy, enforced by
> software, which restricts anyone from posting to ARIN-discuss more  
> than
> once per day, with a further maximum of 3 postings per week?

I sympathize, but I'm not sure it would help in de-trolling and it  
could needlessly complicate legitimate discussion.

-----
Michael H. Lambert, GigaPoP Coordinator        Phone: +1 412 268-4960
Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center               FAX:   +1 412 268-5832
300 S Craig St, Pittsburgh, PA  15213 USA      lambert at psc.edu





From jcurran at istaff.org  Fri Nov  9 14:24:35 2007
From: jcurran at istaff.org (John Curran)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:24:35 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091339410.24660-100000@citation2.av8.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091339410.24660-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <p06240800c35a633f1195@[192.168.3.76]>

At 2:16 PM -0500 11/9/07, Dean Anderson wrote:
>This describes _NANOG_ activites, not ARIN educational outreach.  Merit
>should fund Nanog activities, not ARIN.  NANOG has apparently been
>unable to get community support for its funding, apparently for very
>good reason. 

NANOG is trying to keep meeting costs affordable, and having
access to these meetings remotely is definitely educational to
the ARIN community.

>Curran is conflicted.

Okay, more out of curiosity, how am conflicted?
/John


From paul at vix.com  Fri Nov  9 14:30:17 2007
From: paul at vix.com (Paul Vixie)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 19:30:17 +0000
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 09 Nov 2007 14:16:34 EST."
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091339410.24660-100000@citation2.av8.net> 
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091339410.24660-100000@citation2.av8.net> 
Message-ID: <13865.1194636617@sa.vix.com>

for the record, only.

john curran wrote:

> >    This was moved in the 10 Jan 2004 Board meeting and
> >    passed with Mr. Woodcock abstaining.  Mr. Vixie was not
> >    a member of the ARIN Board at that time.  Minutes of
> >    all the ARIN Board meetings are available online at
> >    <http://www.arin.net/meetings/minutes/bot/>

dean anderson replied:

> The Jan 10 minutes show that the motion was made by Ray Plzak and
> seconded by David Conrad.
> 
> I note that David Conrad shares office space with Paul Vixie, [...]

nope.

> [...] and also participates in NANOG.  Conrad is conflicted.  Manning was
> absent from the meeting, but is conflicted.  Curran is conflicted.  All
> these people are closely connected to Vixie, [...]

nope.

> [...] who is reasonably suspected of ties to organized crime because of the
> TRO.

nope.

> We still have 4 conflicted Board Members and no ARIN educational
> benefit.

nope.

the more astute among you will note that i'm not providing detailed
refutation, merely disagreeing.  there's nothing of any substance to refute.
knowing as i do the actual facts, and knowing as i do mr.  anderson's history
of seeing things his own way no matter what the actual facts are, i'm not
going to bother with the long route.  so, for the record, see above, "nope."


From woody at pch.net  Fri Nov  9 14:56:57 2007
From: woody at pch.net (Bill Woodcock)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:56:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091339410.24660-100000@citation2.av8.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091339410.24660-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.61.0711091152290.7665@paixhost.pch.net>

      On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Dean Anderson wrote:
    > I note that David Conrad shares office space with Paul Vixie.

http://tinyurl.com/34xpg9

    > Did Mr. Woodcock actually recuse himself? 

You'll find, if you read what John wrote, or the minutes, that it says 
"abstain" not "recuse."

                                -Bill



From msellouk at transbeam.com  Fri Nov  9 15:06:49 2007
From: msellouk at transbeam.com (Marc Sellouk)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 15:06:49 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
Message-ID: <F770EF5DCA18DC4E9E79CED3702D1981F8CA57@tbmail.office.transbeam.com>

Can someone please tell me how to get off this list?  I keep trying to unsubscribe and it doesn't work.  Please advise as it is really annoying.

Thank you.

Marc

----- Original Message -----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net <arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net>
To: Dean Anderson <dean at av8.com>
Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net <arin-discuss at arin.net>
Sent: Fri Nov 09 14:56:57 2007
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA

      On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Dean Anderson wrote:
    > I note that David Conrad shares office space with Paul Vixie.

http://tinyurl.com/34xpg9

    > Did Mr. Woodcock actually recuse himself? 

You'll find, if you read what John wrote, or the minutes, that it says 
"abstain" not "recuse."

                                -Bill

_______________________________________________
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From brad.pittenger at xiolink.com  Fri Nov  9 15:17:02 2007
From: brad.pittenger at xiolink.com (Brad Pittenger)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:17:02 -0600
Subject: [arin-discuss] REMOVE
In-Reply-To: <OF85F82A84.46C9DA69-ON0425738E.0067E9E4-0425738E.0067FF9C@prtcmail.prtc.net>
References: <OF85F82A84.46C9DA69-ON0425738E.0067E9E4-0425738E.0067FF9C@prtcmail.prtc.net>
Message-ID: <5F98F483598E5942B52894F5181FD0DE8CFAE333@xio-exch2k7-01.dc01.xiolink.com>

Please remove.

brad.pittenger at xiolink.com<mailto:brad.pittenger at xiolink.com>
public at xiolink.com<mailto:public at xiolink.com>


From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Julio Reyes
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 12:55 PM
To: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net; Steve Bertrand; Paul Vixie
Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: [arin-discuss] REMOVE


Remove please

__________________



----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Bertrand" <steve at ibctech.ca>
To: "Paul Vixie" <paul at vix.com>
Cc: <arin-discuss at arin.net>
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three
per week


>> i still don't like it.  you'd essentially say that
>> anyone who wanted to be able to freely address
>> comments to arin's membership, also had to address
>> those comments to the public.  ppml is a public
>> forum.  i'm talking about an open membership forum,
>> which is what arin-discuss@ currently is.
>
> Either that, or discussions would get extremely fragmented.
>
> If a member felt they *needed* to reply a message and were over their
> quota, they would likely do a reply-all and remove the -discuss list.
>
> This would most likely cause even more confusion and frustration than
> what is present now as nobody would be able to follow an entire thread
> in it's entirety.
>
> I wouldn't even go as far as to say moderation would be better, as then
> you would have a governing body who at it's sole discretion could decide
> whether a member's comment was appropriate or not.
>
> It's up to the members to decide whether another member's opinion is
> valid and appropriate. Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion, and
> limiting and/or blocking someones opinion would (IMHO) detract from the
> purpose of this list entirely.
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-Discuss
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
> Discussion
> Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the
> ARIN Member
> Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.

_______________________________________________
ARIN-Discuss
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion
Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member
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From BillD at cait.wustl.edu  Fri Nov  9 15:22:16 2007
From: BillD at cait.wustl.edu (Bill Darte)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:22:16 -0600
Subject: [arin-discuss] Method for Unsubscribing to the ARIN-Discuss mail
	list
References: <OF85F82A84.46C9DA69-ON0425738E.0067E9E4-0425738E.0067FF9C@prtcmail.prtc.net>
	<5F98F483598E5942B52894F5181FD0DE8CFAE333@xio-exch2k7-01.dc01.xiolink.com>
Message-ID: <EACF8B735E9CBA4B8BAF9E4165D030871CBA4D@ex1.cait.wustl.edu>

Please review the mechanism for removing oneself from the ARIN mail lists that you no longer wish to receive mail from.

I ask you to reconsider your interest in being removed.  Please give this list another chance.

But, if later (or now if you must) want to be removed from the list, you must follow the instructions at:

http://www.arin.net/mailing_lists/index.html

Bill Darte
ARIN Advisory Council


-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net on behalf of Brad Pittenger
Sent: Fri 11/9/2007 2:17 PM
To: arin-discuss at arin.net
Cc: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] REMOVE
 
Please remove.

brad.pittenger at xiolink.com<mailto:brad.pittenger at xiolink.com>
public at xiolink.com<mailto:public at xiolink.com>


From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Julio Reyes
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 12:55 PM
To: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net; Steve Bertrand; Paul Vixie
Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: [arin-discuss] REMOVE


Remove please

__________________



----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Bertrand" <steve at ibctech.ca>
To: "Paul Vixie" <paul at vix.com>
Cc: <arin-discuss at arin.net>
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three
per week


>> i still don't like it.  you'd essentially say that
>> anyone who wanted to be able to freely address
>> comments to arin's membership, also had to address
>> those comments to the public.  ppml is a public
>> forum.  i'm talking about an open membership forum,
>> which is what arin-discuss@ currently is.
>
> Either that, or discussions would get extremely fragmented.
>
> If a member felt they *needed* to reply a message and were over their
> quota, they would likely do a reply-all and remove the -discuss list.
>
> This would most likely cause even more confusion and frustration than
> what is present now as nobody would be able to follow an entire thread
> in it's entirety.
>
> I wouldn't even go as far as to say moderation would be better, as then
> you would have a governing body who at it's sole discretion could decide
> whether a member's comment was appropriate or not.
>
> It's up to the members to decide whether another member's opinion is
> valid and appropriate. Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion, and
> limiting and/or blocking someones opinion would (IMHO) detract from the
> purpose of this list entirely.
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-Discuss
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
> Discussion
> Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the
> ARIN Member
> Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.

_______________________________________________
ARIN-Discuss
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion
Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member
Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.

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From kbisht at hawaiiteleport.com  Fri Nov  9 16:10:28 2007
From: kbisht at hawaiiteleport.com (Kapil Bisht)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:10:28 -1000
Subject: [arin-discuss] REMOVE
References: <OF85F82A84.46C9DA69-ON0425738E.0067E9E4-0425738E.0067FF9C@prtcmail.prtc.net>
	<5F98F483598E5942B52894F5181FD0DE8CFAE333@xio-exch2k7-01.dc01.xiolink.com>
Message-ID: <007401c82314$f530e700$7a0a0a0a@KAVI>

Please remove.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Brad Pittenger 
  To: arin-discuss at arin.net 
  Cc: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net 
  Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 10:17 AM
  Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] REMOVE


  Please remove.

   

  brad.pittenger at xiolink.com

  public at xiolink.com

   

   

  From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Julio Reyes
  Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 12:55 PM
  To: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net; Steve Bertrand; Paul Vixie
  Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
  Subject: [arin-discuss] REMOVE

   


  Remove please 

  __________________ 



  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Steve Bertrand" <steve at ibctech.ca>
  To: "Paul Vixie" <paul at vix.com>
  Cc: <arin-discuss at arin.net>
  Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 10:39 AM
  Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three
  per week


  >> i still don't like it.  you'd essentially say that
  >> anyone who wanted to be able to freely address
  >> comments to arin's membership, also had to address
  >> those comments to the public.  ppml is a public
  >> forum.  i'm talking about an open membership forum,
  >> which is what arin-discuss@ currently is.
  >
  > Either that, or discussions would get extremely fragmented.
  >
  > If a member felt they *needed* to reply a message and were over their
  > quota, they would likely do a reply-all and remove the -discuss list.
  >
  > This would most likely cause even more confusion and frustration than
  > what is present now as nobody would be able to follow an entire thread
  > in it's entirety.
  >
  > I wouldn't even go as far as to say moderation would be better, as then
  > you would have a governing body who at it's sole discretion could decide
  > whether a member's comment was appropriate or not.
  >
  > It's up to the members to decide whether another member's opinion is
  > valid and appropriate. Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion, and
  > limiting and/or blocking someones opinion would (IMHO) detract from the
  > purpose of this list entirely.
  >
  > Steve
  > _______________________________________________
  > ARIN-Discuss
  > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
  > Discussion
  > Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
  > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
  > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the
  > ARIN Member
  > Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.

  _______________________________________________
  ARIN-Discuss
  You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion
  Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
  Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
  http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member 
  Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  ARIN-Discuss
  You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion
  Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
  Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
  http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member
  Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
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From tedm at ipinc.net  Fri Nov  9 16:20:10 2007
From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 13:20:10 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Method for Unsubscribing to the ARIN-Discuss
	maillist
In-Reply-To: <EACF8B735E9CBA4B8BAF9E4165D030871CBA4D@ex1.cait.wustl.edu>
Message-ID: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOKEIFHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>

Method for Unsubscribing to the ARIN-Discuss mail listBill and All,

The majority of these remove requests are coming from anti-spam software.
There isn't anyone reading your responses.

There's software out there that in an attempt to reduce spam the user can
run and it will just e-mail out unsubscribe requests to the sender for every
mail message they get that isn't on an approved list.  The idea is that if
the spam is forged criminal spam the backscatter will go to /dev/null and
if it's a commercial advertising list that the advert list managers will
eventually
remove them if they get enough remove replies.

The authors of such software know that these are a great source of annoyance
to listserves.  But, they don't give a rat's ass about that.  Their theory
is that
any "legitimate" e-mail listserv is an opt-in with confirmation and thus it
will not be possible for one of their software customers to be subscribed
to a "legitimate" list serv.

The very best thing you can do with these unprintable people is to forward
their so-called unsubscribe requests to the member services help desk at
ARIN with a notation that we got another moron that is trying to unsubscribe
without reading the instructions, and to please do it manually for them.

Ted
  -----Original Message-----
  From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Bill Darte
  Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 12:22 PM
  To: Brad Pittenger; arin-discuss at arin.net
  Cc: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
  Subject: [arin-discuss] Method for Unsubscribing to the ARIN-Discuss
maillist


  Please review the mechanism for removing oneself from the ARIN mail lists
that you no longer wish to receive mail from.

  I ask you to reconsider your interest in being removed.  Please give this
list another chance.

  But, if later (or now if you must) want to be removed from the list, you
must follow the instructions at:

  http://www.arin.net/mailing_lists/index.html

  Bill Darte
  ARIN Advisory Council


  -----Original Message-----
  From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net on behalf of Brad Pittenger
  Sent: Fri 11/9/2007 2:17 PM
  To: arin-discuss at arin.net
  Cc: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
  Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] REMOVE

  Please remove.

  brad.pittenger at xiolink.com<mailto:brad.pittenger at xiolink.com>
  public at xiolink.com<mailto:public at xiolink.com>


  From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]
On Behalf Of Julio Reyes
  Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 12:55 PM
  To: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net; Steve Bertrand; Paul Vixie
  Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
  Subject: [arin-discuss] REMOVE


  Remove please

  __________________



  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Steve Bertrand" <steve at ibctech.ca>
  To: "Paul Vixie" <paul at vix.com>
  Cc: <arin-discuss at arin.net>
  Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 10:39 AM
  Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Restricting postings to one per day and three
  per week


  >> i still don't like it.  you'd essentially say that
  >> anyone who wanted to be able to freely address
  >> comments to arin's membership, also had to address
  >> those comments to the public.  ppml is a public
  >> forum.  i'm talking about an open membership forum,
  >> which is what arin-discuss@ currently is.
  >
  > Either that, or discussions would get extremely fragmented.
  >
  > If a member felt they *needed* to reply a message and were over their
  > quota, they would likely do a reply-all and remove the -discuss list.
  >
  > This would most likely cause even more confusion and frustration than
  > what is present now as nobody would be able to follow an entire thread
  > in it's entirety.
  >
  > I wouldn't even go as far as to say moderation would be better, as then
  > you would have a governing body who at it's sole discretion could decide
  > whether a member's comment was appropriate or not.
  >
  > It's up to the members to decide whether another member's opinion is
  > valid and appropriate. Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion, and
  > limiting and/or blocking someones opinion would (IMHO) detract from the
  > purpose of this list entirely.
  >
  > Steve
  > _______________________________________________
  > ARIN-Discuss
  > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
  > Discussion
  > Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
  > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
  > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the
  > ARIN Member
  > Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.

  _______________________________________________
  ARIN-Discuss
  You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
Discussion
  Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
  Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
  http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the
ARIN Member
  Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.


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From dean at av8.com  Fri Nov  9 16:23:31 2007
From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 16:23:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <p06240800c35a633f1195@[192.168.3.76]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091552480.24660-100000@citation2.av8.net>

On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, John Curran wrote:

> At 2:16 PM -0500 11/9/07, Dean Anderson wrote:
> >This describes _NANOG_ activites, not ARIN educational outreach.  Merit
> >should fund Nanog activities, not ARIN.  NANOG has apparently been
> >unable to get community support for its funding, apparently for very
> >good reason. 
> 
> NANOG is trying to keep meeting costs affordable, and having
> access to these meetings remotely is definitely educational to
> the ARIN community.


If 'having access to Nanog remotely' was so beneficial, they would
contribute to NANOG, or their meeting fees would pay for NANOG. The
reason that NANOG has a lack of funds is because your assertion of
community benefit is false.  It is not in ARIN's mission or interest to
help keep _NANOG_ meeting costs affordable. That's not in the ARIN
charter.  That's just in your personal interest.

The things that NANOG is trying to do may indeed be good in principle
even if done badly in practice.  But the Red Cross is very good and
useful organization, too.  But NANOGs purpose is different from what
ARIN is chartered to do.  ARIN is not chartered to help NANOG keep its
meetings affordable.

> >Curran is conflicted.
> 
> Okay, more out of curiosity, how am conflicted? 
> /John

You participated in 14 NANOG meetings (that I have records of). You are
one of the 50 or so core participants in NANOG.  Attendence records
chart your employment from GTE Internetworking, Nextlink, and XO, before
ARIN began paying your attendence fees in 2004.  Why is ARIN paying your
fees to attend NANOG?  This doesn't seem appropriate expense for a Board
Member. Invited speakers shouldn't be charged meeting fees.

In fact, according to NANOG attendence lists, ARIN paid NANOG attendence
fees _163_ times. At $450.00 per person (going to $550 for 2007) that
adds up to about $73,350.00.  Why is ARIN paying so many ARIN staff to
go to NANOG? How is that an appropriate expense?  You went along this.

N-15:Hubbard, Kim ARIN Speaker 
N-15:Kern, Barkley ARIN ------ 
N-15:Martin, Dawn ARIN ------ 
N-16:Clements, Cathy ARIN Paid 
N-16:Davis, Nate ARIN Speaker 
N-16:Weaver, Sue ARIN Paid 
N-17:Hubbard, Kim ARIN Paid 
N-17:Jimmerson, Richard ARIN Paid 
N-18:Hubbard, Kim ARIN Speaker 
N-18:Jimmerson, Richard ARIN Paid 
N-18:Kertzman, Samuel ARIN Paid 
N-19: ARIN
N-19: ARIN
N-19: ARIN
N-20: ARIN
N-20: ARIN
N-20: ARIN
N-20: ARIN
N-20: ARIN
N-21: ARIN
N-21: ARIN
N-21: ARIN
N-21: ARIN
N-21: ARIN
N-21: ARIN
N-21: ARIN
N-22: ARIN
N-22: ARIN
N-22: ARIN
N-22: Genuity Inc. / ARIN
N-22: ARIN
N-22: ARIN
N-22: ARIN
N-22: ARIN
N-23: ARIN
N-23: ARIN
N-23: ARIN
N-23: ARIN
N-23: ARIN
N-23: ARIN
N-23: ARIN
N-24: ARIN
N-24: ARIN
N-24: ARIN
N-24: ARIN
N-24: ARIN
N-24: ARIN
N-24: ARIN
N-24: ARIN
N-24: ARIN
N-24: ARIN
N-24: ARIN
N-25:Byrne Jason ARIN Paid 
N-25:Jimmerson Richard ARIN Paid 
N-25:Lewis Edward ARIN Paid 
N-25:Listman Ginny ARIN Speaker 
N-25:Murphy Cathy ARIN Paid 
N-25:Nobile Leslie ARIN Paid 
N-25:Plzak Raymond ARIN Paid 
N-25:Sybert James  ARIN Paid 
N-26:Byrne Jason ARIN Paid 
N-26:Eastman Bruce ARIN Paid 
N-26:Hamlin Susan ARIN Paid 
N-26:Jimmerson Richard ARIN Paid 
N-26:Lewis Edward ARIN Paid 
N-26:Losee Peter ARIN Paid 
N-26:Mimna Bernadette ARIN Paid 
N-26:Nobile Leslie ARIN Paid 
N-26:Sepehrrad Mohammad ARIN Paid 
N-26:Wilder Donald  ARIN Paid 
N-27:Clements Cathy ARIN Paid 
N-27:Curran John ARIN Paid 
N-27:Jimmerson Richard ARIN Paid 
N-27:Lewis Edward ARIN Paid 
N-27:Nobile Leslie ARIN Speaker 
N-28:Lewis Edward ARIN Speaker 
N-28:Loevner Michael ARIN Paid 
N-28:Nobile Leslie ARIN Paid 
N-29:Bohlin Einar ARIN Paid 
N-29:Byrne Jason ARIN Paid 
N-29:Hamlin Susan ARIN Paid 
N-29:Jimmerson Richard ARIN Paid 
N-29:Nobile Leslie ARIN Paid 
N-29:Pizzarello Edward ARIN Paid 
N-29:Plzak Raymond ARIN Paid 
N-29:Ryanczak Matt ARIN Paid 
N-29:Sybert James ARIN Paid 
N-29:Yan Ming ARIN Paid 
N-30:Centanni Erin ARIN Paid 
N-30:Jimmerson Richard ARIN Paid 
N-30:Nobile Leslie ARIN Paid 
N-30:Plzak Raymond ARIN Speaker 
N-30:Sybert James ARIN Paid 
N-31:Curran John ARIN Paid 
N-31:Huberman David  ARIN Paid 
N-31:Lewis Edward ARIN Speaker 
N-31:Nobile Leslie ARIN Paid 
N-32:Ardelean Dan ARIN, Purdue University Speaker 
N-32:Bicknell Leo ARIN AC Paid 
N-32:Bohlin Einar ARIN Paid 
N-32:Centanni Erin ARIN Paid 
N-32:Curran John ARIN Paid 
N-32:Darte Bill ARIN AC Paid 
N-32:Eastman Chad ARIN Paid 
N-32:Hamlin Susan ARIN Paid 
N-32:Jimmerson Richard ARIN Speaker 
N-32:Nobile Leslie  ARIN Paid 
N-32:Plzak Raymond ARIN Speaker 
N-32:Rowley Matt ARIN Paid 
N-32:Ryanczak Matt ARIN Paid 
N-33:Curran John ARIN Paid 
N-33:Jimmerson Richard ARIN Paid 
N-33:O'Neill Michael ARIN Paid 
N-34:Curran John ARIN Paid 
N-34:Nobile Leslie ARIN Paid 
N-34:O'Neill Michael ARIN Paid 
N-34:Plzak Raymond ARIN Speaker 
N-34:Worley Jon ARIN Paid 
N-35:Bicknell Leo ARIN Advisory Council Paid 
N-35:Bohlin Einar ARIN Paid 
N-35:Christensen Tim ARIN Paid 
N-35:Clements Cathy ARIN Paid 
N-35:Conrad David ARIN Paid 
N-35:Darte Bill ARIN AC & Washington Univ. in St. Louis Paid 
N-35:Hamlin Susan ARIN Paid 
N-35:Jimmerson Richard ARIN Paid 
N-35:Manning Bill ARIN Paid 
N-35:Nobile Leslie ARIN Paid 
N-35:Plzak Raymond ARIN Speaker 
N-35:Roberts Lea Stanford Univeristy/ARIN AC Paid 
N-35:Rowley Matthew ARIN Paid 
N-35:Ryanczak Matt ARIN Paid 
N-35:Taylor Stacy ARIN AC/TWTC Paid 
N-35:Thielke Abram ARIN Paid 
N-36:Curran     John    ARIN    Paid
N-36:Jimmerson  Richard         ARIN    Paid
N-36:Nobile     Leslie  ARIN    Paid
N-37:Huberman   David   ARIN    Paid
N-37:Jimmerson  Richard         ARIN    Paid
N-37:Nobile     Leslie  ARIN    Paid
N-37:O'Neill    Michael         ARIN    Paid
N-38:Azinger    Marla   Frontier Communications and ARIN AC
N-38:Bohlin     Einar   ARIN
N-38:Curran     John    ARIN / ServerVault
N-38:Darte      Bill    ARIN AC & Washington Univ. in St. Louis
N-38:Huberman   David   ARIN
N-38:Manning    Bill    ARIN
N-38:Nobile     Leslie  ARIN
N-38:Plzak      Raymond         ARIN
N-38:Pounsett   Matt    ARIN AC / CIRA
N-38:Roberts    Lea     Stanford University/ARIN AC
N-38:Rowley     Matthew         ARIN
N-38:Ryanczak   Matt    ARIN
N-39:Christensen        Tim     ARIN
N-39:Davis      Nate    ARIN
N-39:Goedrich   Erika   ARIN
N-39:Middleton  Stephen         ARIN
N-39:Pounsett   Matt    ARIN AC / CIRA
N-40:Azinger    Marla   Frontier Communications and ARIN AC
N-40:Christensen        Tim     ARIN
N-40:Goedrich   Erika   ARIN
N-40:Huberman   David   ARIN
N-40:Nobile     Leslie  ARIN
N-40:Ryanczak   Matt    ARIN
N-41:Azinger    Marla   Frontier Communications and ARIN AC
N-41:Curran     John    ARIN / ServerVault
N-41:Darte      Bill    ARIN AC & Washington Univ. in St. Louis
N-41:Edelman    Benjamin        Harvard Business School / ARIN
N-41:Jimmerson  Richard         ARIN
N-41:Nobile     Leslie  ARIN
N-41:Plzak      Ray     ARIN
N-41:Pounsett   Matt    ARIN AC / CIRA
N-41:Roberts    Lea     Stanford University/ARIN AC
N-41:Ryan       Stephen         ARIN
N-41:Ryanczak   Matt    ARIN
N-41:Stark      Ray     ARIN


		--Dean

-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
617 344 9000   





From dean at av8.com  Fri Nov  9 17:30:19 2007
From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 17:30:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <13865.1194636617@sa.vix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091631140.24660-100000@citation2.av8.net>

On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Paul Vixie wrote:

> for the record, only.

Good.  That's just what I need.

> john curran wrote:
> 
> > >    This was moved in the 10 Jan 2004 Board meeting and
> > >    passed with Mr. Woodcock abstaining.  Mr. Vixie was not
> > >    a member of the ARIN Board at that time.  Minutes of
> > >    all the ARIN Board meetings are available online at
> > >    <http://www.arin.net/meetings/minutes/bot/>
> 
> dean anderson replied:
> 
> > The Jan 10 minutes show that the motion was made by Ray Plzak and
> > seconded by David Conrad.
> > 
> > I note that David Conrad shares office space with Paul Vixie, [...]
>
> nope.

http://web.archive.org/web/20001201200600/www.nominum.com/about/contact.html

Shows Nominum.com at 950 Charter Street, Redwood City, CA.  This is the
same address as all 5 of the ISC companies registered by Vixie.

About 2002 or so, Nomimum cited a different address. Nominum's "new
address" is 2385 Bay Rd, Redwood City, CA. This is around the corner IN
THE SAME COMPLEX as before.  (Mapquest directions from one to the other,
click 'aerial image'.

Here's some clue to the Veracity of Vixie's statement:

http://www.cert.org/advisories/CA-1999-14.html
  The CERT Coordination Center would like to thank David Conrad, Paul 
  Vixie and Bob Halley of the Internet Software Consortium for notifying 
  us of these problems and for their help in constructing the advisory, 
  and Olaf Kirch of Caldera for notifying us of some of these problems 
  and providing technical assistance and advice.

http://www.cert.org/advisories/CA-2000-20.html
  The CERT Coordination Center thanks Mark Andrews, David Conrad, and
  Paul Vixie of the ISC for developing a solution and assisting in the
  preparation of this advisory. 

And the clincher:

http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dnsop/current/msg03606.html
  i figure this is as good a time to mention this as any.  david conrad
  was the first voice for wide scale ipv4 anycast of root name servers,
  and when f-root started deploying this (in the months before the
  october 2002 ddos) it was because david and i had been sharing an
  office and talking about it. ("and it makes for great
  security/resiliency slideware.")

"it was because david and i had been sharing an office"

> the more astute among you will note that i'm not providing detailed
> refutation, merely disagreeing.  there's nothing of any substance to refute.

Sure. Just like you never hosted SORBS?

> knowing as i do the actual facts, and knowing as i do mr.  anderson's history
> of seeing things his own way no matter what the actual facts are, i'm not
> going to bother with the long route.  so, for the record, see above, "nope."

Actually, Vixie is the one who went to Court on 7 serious charges with
nothing more than a frivolous claim of a First Amendment right to engage
in, among other things, intentional and negligent misrepresentation,
extortion, and violation of the Colorado Organized Crime Control Act,
for which a Temporary Restraining Order(TRO) was issued.  The astute
will note that a TRO is a court ruling, and means that the facts, if
true, are sufficient for a judgment against the defendant on the law
claimed.

Besides the serious issue of suspected organized crime activity, we have
proof here that it is Mr. Vixie who, despite the facts, will try to see
things his own way, or to use more precise language, intentionally and
negligently misrepresent the facts.

We also have evidence that Vixie anticipated organized crime charges in 
his activity, and has sought to pretend to be uninvolved to protect 
himself.  http://www.iadl.org/maps/maps-story.html



		--Dean

-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
617 344 9000   





From tedm at ipinc.net  Fri Nov  9 18:00:38 2007
From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 15:00:38 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091552480.24660-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOEEIGHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>



>-----Original Message-----
>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Dean Anderson
>Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 1:24 PM
>To: John Curran
>Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
>
>
>If 'having access to Nanog remotely' was so beneficial, they would
>contribute to NANOG, or their meeting fees would pay for NANOG. The
>reason that NANOG has a lack of funds is because your assertion of
>community benefit is false.  It is not in ARIN's mission or interest to
>help keep _NANOG_ meeting costs affordable. That's not in the ARIN
>charter.  That's just in your personal interest.
>

It is in ARIN's interest to help keep their own meeting costs
affordable for all attenders.  There are likely MANY IT departments
out there who would send someone to BOTH the ARIN and the NANOG
meetings regardless of where and when they took place.  Thus, if ARIN
and NANOG can share meeting space, hotel
accomodations, etc. EVEN IF it results in a slightly HIGHER fee that
ARIN pays, then it will GREATLY REDUCE the fees that all of the members
out there pay to attend both meetings - because they will only have
to pay for 1 plane trip, 1 hotel room, etc. not two.

You are treading on very squishy ground here.  Granted, for ARIN to pay
an EXCESSIVE amount of money to share meeting space with NANOG is
as you say, probably not in ARIN's interest.

Ideally, NANOG would pay X amount for meeting space and ARIN would
pay Y amount, and if they had joint meetings that would result in
a larger discount Z than they would normally get, then NANOG would
pay X - Z% and ARIN would pay Y - Z%.  BUT, even if aligning the
meetings would result in ARIN paying X and NANOG paying Y, then
your still saving on travel and accomodations costs for the attenders.

But, who am I kidding.  Clearly you just don't want to have any
benefits whatsoever go to NANOG even if doing this would be cutting
off ARIN's nose to spite it's face - so let's just agree here that
your not going to see reason on this issue no matter what.

Ted


From steve at ibctech.ca  Fri Nov  9 19:02:22 2007
From: steve at ibctech.ca (Steve Bertrand)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 19:02:22 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091631140.24660-100000@citation2.av8.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091631140.24660-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <4734F50E.5050205@ibctech.ca>

I can understand why so many people want to leave the list. I am a
newcomer, attempting to become somewhat of a good 'net citizen in
regards to appropriate use of my resources, and to generally gain
knowledge so I can be a respectable piece of the Internet's next generation.

I'm thankful that I'm an operator and not a politician. The only time
I've ever known anyone to have so much time to dig up dirt on others is
in politics. What a waste of production time.

As it has already been pointed out, Section 9.2 of the Member Mailing
List AUP is here:

http://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#nine2

If anything, for sanity sakes, at least propose a solution to what you
think is wrong instead of a blanket 'get rid of the board and the AC'
with a boat load of crap to go with it.

Whether someone is a criminal, has been accused of being a criminal or
was a criminal, if they can adequately suit the needs of the people they
are serving, why judge them on that. Cast the first stone.

It is claimed that ARIN is wasting money because there is no benefit to
the community they serve (WRT spending on travel for trade shows).
However, there has been no documentation to the contrary that states
their spending on attendance to these trade shows has had a negative
impact either.

My .02. I don't care anymore. I thought that monitoring these lists
would actually provide some benefit to myself, the organization that I
work for and most importantly the continuance of decent policy into the
future.

On a side, but related note, if IP related policy is ever proposed that
does not involve those who have at least some operational/engineering
relevance, than I oppose of it right off the hop.

I propose a policy that moves political discussion and accusations that
have nothing to do with the basic fundamentals ARIN represents to
something like:

arin-politics at arin.net

Steve





From neteng at farm-market.net  Fri Nov  9 19:35:56 2007
From: neteng at farm-market.net (Terri Kelley)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 18:35:56 -0600
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <4734F50E.5050205@ibctech.ca>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711091631140.24660-100000@citation2.av8.net>
	<4734F50E.5050205@ibctech.ca>
Message-ID: <0F4C7D34-D23D-4652-88A3-E78272205DE9@farm-market.net>

I second what Steve has said here.

I am also new to the list and I am a tech guy not a politician and  
have no desire
to be one. This one discussion if you will has come close to creating  
a arin spam
folder or just removing myself.

There is probably a need for this type of thing but like Steve, I  
think a "politics"
list would be very appropriate. I would still like to see the arin  
info that is sent
out here but if it involves politics then anyone wanting to respond  
should go to
the politics discussion to debate it out. So both groups would be  
served and
neither would be left out of the loop.

Terri Kelley
Farm to Market Broadband
Network Engineer


On Nov 9, 2007, at 6:02 PM, Steve Bertrand wrote:

> I can understand why so many people want to leave the list. I am a
> newcomer, attempting to become somewhat of a good 'net citizen in
> regards to appropriate use of my resources, and to generally gain
> knowledge so I can be a respectable piece of the Internet's next  
> generation.
>
> I'm thankful that I'm an operator and not a politician. The only time
> I've ever known anyone to have so much time to dig up dirt on  
> others is
> in politics. What a waste of production time.
>
> As it has already been pointed out, Section 9.2 of the Member Mailing
> List AUP is here:
>
> http://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#nine2
>
> If anything, for sanity sakes, at least propose a solution to what you
> think is wrong instead of a blanket 'get rid of the board and the AC'
> with a boat load of crap to go with it.
>
> Whether someone is a criminal, has been accused of being a criminal or
> was a criminal, if they can adequately suit the needs of the people  
> they
> are serving, why judge them on that. Cast the first stone.
>
> It is claimed that ARIN is wasting money because there is no  
> benefit to
> the community they serve (WRT spending on travel for trade shows).
> However, there has been no documentation to the contrary that states
> their spending on attendance to these trade shows has had a negative
> impact either.
>
> My .02. I don't care anymore. I thought that monitoring these lists
> would actually provide some benefit to myself, the organization that I
> work for and most importantly the continuance of decent policy into  
> the
> future.
>
> On a side, but related note, if IP related policy is ever proposed  
> that
> does not involve those who have at least some operational/engineering
> relevance, than I oppose of it right off the hop.
>
> I propose a policy that moves political discussion and accusations  
> that
> have nothing to do with the basic fundamentals ARIN represents to
> something like:
>
> arin-politics at arin.net
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-Discuss
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the  
> ARIN Discussion
> Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact  
> the ARIN Member
> Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.

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From mksmith at adhost.com  Fri Nov  9 21:01:08 2007
From: mksmith at adhost.com (Michael Smith)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 18:01:08 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Time to Moderate?
Message-ID: <15373CD0-0FFD-4FEE-ACBF-03168E69FC5A@adhost.com>

Hello All:

Would it be a bad thing to moderate the lists associated with ARIN?   
If we assigned/elected/ordained Mailing List moderators from the  
participants on a revolving basis we could give reasonable assurances  
to everyone concerned that no one particular group's (however that is  
defined) viewpoint is holding sway.

It is more work, but I think it will provide a means to keep the list  
on-topic.

Regards,

Michael K. Smith
mksmith at adhost.com


From steve at ibctech.ca  Fri Nov  9 21:08:07 2007
From: steve at ibctech.ca (Steve Bertrand)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 21:08:07 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Time to Moderate?
In-Reply-To: <15373CD0-0FFD-4FEE-ACBF-03168E69FC5A@adhost.com>
References: <15373CD0-0FFD-4FEE-ACBF-03168E69FC5A@adhost.com>
Message-ID: <47351287.3090408@ibctech.ca>

Michael Smith wrote:

> Would it be a bad thing to moderate the lists associated with ARIN?   
> If we assigned/elected/ordained Mailing List moderators from the  
> participants on a revolving basis we could give reasonable assurances  
> to everyone concerned that no one particular group's (however that is  
> defined) viewpoint is holding sway.

...and whoever is controlling moderation at 'x' time controls the type
of discussion that is happening (and the flow, and control etc).

Besides that, this type of setup would then introduce into the list(s) a
hierarchy of complaints about the moderation of the [non]complaints
about the board...

Steve


From tedm at ipinc.net  Fri Nov  9 21:12:33 2007
From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 18:12:33 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <0F4C7D34-D23D-4652-88A3-E78272205DE9@farm-market.net>
Message-ID: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOKEIHHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>

Terri,

  ARIN is rather constrained from quite a number of technical arenas.  It's
not in it's
charter to interfere with routing on the backbone which is where most of the
pure
tech is.  The biggest thing that ARIN does - assignment of IP addresses - is
not
as much of a technical function as it is a business/administrative/political
function that is
being driven by the technologists on NANOG and in IETF and what they want on
the Internet.

  With that said, one of the best ways to get rid of a stinky thread on a
mailing
list is to replace it with a more interesting one.  You said your new to the
list, are
you new to ARIN?  Are there any questions you have as to it's operation that
might be good topics for discussion here?

Ted

 -----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On
Behalf Of Terri Kelley
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 4:36 PM
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA


  I second what Steve has said here.


  I am also new to the list and I am a tech guy not a politician and have no
desire
  to be one. This one discussion if you will has come close to creating a
arin spam
  folder or just removing myself.


  There is probably a need for this type of thing but like Steve, I think a
"politics"
  list would be very appropriate. I would still like to see the arin info
that is sent
  out here but if it involves politics then anyone wanting to respond should
go to
  the politics discussion to debate it out. So both groups would be served
and
  neither would be left out of the loop.


  Terri Kelley
  Farm to Market Broadband
  Network Engineer




  On Nov 9, 2007, at 6:02 PM, Steve Bertrand wrote:


    I can understand why so many people want to leave the list. I am a
    newcomer, attempting to become somewhat of a good 'net citizen in
    regards to appropriate use of my resources, and to generally gain
    knowledge so I can be a respectable piece of the Internet's next
generation.


    I'm thankful that I'm an operator and not a politician. The only time
    I've ever known anyone to have so much time to dig up dirt on others is
    in politics. What a waste of production time.


    As it has already been pointed out, Section 9.2 of the Member Mailing
    List AUP is here:


    http://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#nine2


    If anything, for sanity sakes, at least propose a solution to what you
    think is wrong instead of a blanket 'get rid of the board and the AC'
    with a boat load of crap to go with it.


    Whether someone is a criminal, has been accused of being a criminal or
    was a criminal, if they can adequately suit the needs of the people they
    are serving, why judge them on that. Cast the first stone.


    It is claimed that ARIN is wasting money because there is no benefit to
    the community they serve (WRT spending on travel for trade shows).
    However, there has been no documentation to the contrary that states
    their spending on attendance to these trade shows has had a negative
    impact either.


    My .02. I don't care anymore. I thought that monitoring these lists
    would actually provide some benefit to myself, the organization that I
    work for and most importantly the continuance of decent policy into the
    future.


    On a side, but related note, if IP related policy is ever proposed that
    does not involve those who have at least some operational/engineering
    relevance, than I oppose of it right off the hop.


    I propose a policy that moves political discussion and accusations that
    have nothing to do with the basic fundamentals ARIN represents to
    something like:


    arin-politics at arin.net


    Steve






    _______________________________________________
    ARIN-Discuss
    You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
Discussion
    Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
    Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
    http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the
ARIN Member
    Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.

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From mksmith at adhost.com  Fri Nov  9 22:06:05 2007
From: mksmith at adhost.com (Michael Smith)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 19:06:05 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Time to Moderate?
In-Reply-To: <47351287.3090408@ibctech.ca>
References: <15373CD0-0FFD-4FEE-ACBF-03168E69FC5A@adhost.com>
	<47351287.3090408@ibctech.ca>
Message-ID: <B5347FAE-F128-4B37-A2A1-F223C2B6EFBA@adhost.com>

Hello Steve:
On Nov 9, 2007, at 6:08 PM, Steve Bertrand wrote:

> Michael Smith wrote:
>
>> Would it be a bad thing to moderate the lists associated with ARIN?
>> If we assigned/elected/ordained Mailing List moderators from the
>> participants on a revolving basis we could give reasonable assurances
>> to everyone concerned that no one particular group's (however that is
>> defined) viewpoint is holding sway.
>
> ...and whoever is controlling moderation at 'x' time controls the type
> of discussion that is happening (and the flow, and control etc).

The rotation of moderator duties wouldn't solve this issue, but it  
would keep things fairly balanced I would think.  As long as the  
documentation about "on topic" versus "off topic" exists and is  
followed it could work.

I was on a humanities list back in the day that had 4 moderators, all  
of whom had approve/deny privileges, and all of whom saw every mail  
that hit the list, even the ones the Moderator On Duty deigned to  
defer.  That way, if a particular moderator was taking liberties with  
their power the other moderators would know and would deal with the  
issue.

This could work here as well.  The list elects/selects a group of  
volunteers to moderate the list.  The actual moderator rotates every  
30 days and all of the members of the group review all messages.  If  
there are issues, the individual moderator is dealt with according to  
whatever procedure we (as the list members) deem appropriate  
(dismissal, reprimand, keel-hauling, etc.).
>
>
> Besides that, this type of setup would then introduce into the  
> list(s) a
> hierarchy of complaints about the moderation of the [non]complaints
> about the board...

It is certainly not a panacea, but it is just another option to think  
about.  We could have another list called "arin-discuss-deferred" or  
something similar that is a repository for all deferred messages/ 
topics/threads.  Then, if the community feels a moderator or set of  
moderators is acting unfairly against a list member, those objections  
can be publicly voiced and addressed by the whole community.

Regards,

Mike



From neteng at farm-market.net  Fri Nov  9 22:41:11 2007
From: neteng at farm-market.net (Terri Kelley)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 21:41:11 -0600
Subject: [arin-discuss] Fwd:  Legacy RSA
References: <DDE21CA4-5002-4A6E-98A8-93012C7E89BA@farm-market.net>
Message-ID: <900C1410-94B2-4478-A7EC-8214A9CAB4D8@farm-market.net>

Sorry, my first swipe at this was hitting the reply button. Forgot it  
didn't just reply to the list. Below is what I sent to Ted.

Terri Kelley
Network Engineer



Begin forwarded message:

> From: Terri Kelley <neteng at farm-market.net>
> Date: November 9, 2007 9:39:52 PM CST
> To: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm at ipinc.net>
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
>
> Ted,
>
> Thanks for the note. Yes I am new to ARIN. We are a small ISP  
> coming from a single homed situation to multihomed which puts us  
> into the ARIN area. So this is my first into this arena where  
> before in my career I have always had an upstream provider that  
> dealt with these issues.
>
> While ARIN's biggest thing might be assignment of IP addresses I  
> would think that it still plays a part in the overall picture. Kind  
> of like business, there are us tech guys and there are the sales  
> guys. Both have to communicate or you end up with a mess. So each  
> plays a part and while I have no desire to be sales it is important  
> that the tech part has input. Might be a bad analogy but this late  
> it is the best I could come up with. Even so, often it is us tech  
> guys who get to deal with ARIN directly especially in small business.
>
> As far as questions, not yet. I have been swamped in this cutover  
> and need to do some reading. Have to look up NANOG and IETF and  
> learn more about them.
>
>
> Terri Kelley
> Network Engineer
>
>
>
> On Nov 9, 2007, at 8:12 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>
>> Terri,
>>
>>   ARIN is rather constrained from quite a number of technical  
>> arenas.  It's not in it's
>> charter to interfere with routing on the backbone which is where  
>> most of the pure
>> tech is.  The biggest thing that ARIN does - assignment of IP  
>> addresses - is not
>> as much of a technical function as it is a business/administrative/ 
>> political function that is
>> being driven by the technologists on NANOG and in IETF and what  
>> they want on
>> the Internet.
>>
>>   With that said, one of the best ways to get rid of a stinky  
>> thread on a mailing
>> list is to replace it with a more interesting one.  You said your  
>> new to the list, are
>> you new to ARIN?  Are there any questions you have as to it's  
>> operation that
>> might be good topics for discussion here?
>>
>> Ted
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss- 
>> bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Terri Kelley
>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 4:36 PM
>> To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
>>
>> I second what Steve has said here.
>>
>> I am also new to the list and I am a tech guy not a politician and  
>> have no desire
>> to be one. This one discussion if you will has come close to  
>> creating a arin spam
>> folder or just removing myself.
>>
>> There is probably a need for this type of thing but like Steve, I  
>> think a "politics"
>> list would be very appropriate. I would still like to see the arin  
>> info that is sent
>> out here but if it involves politics then anyone wanting to  
>> respond should go to
>> the politics discussion to debate it out. So both groups would be  
>> served and
>> neither would be left out of the loop.
>>
>> Terri Kelley
>> Farm to Market Broadband
>> Network Engineer
>>
>>
>> On Nov 9, 2007, at 6:02 PM, Steve Bertrand wrote:
>>
>>> I can understand why so many people want to leave the list. I am a
>>> newcomer, attempting to become somewhat of a good 'net citizen in
>>> regards to appropriate use of my resources, and to generally gain
>>> knowledge so I can be a respectable piece of the Internet's next  
>>> generation.
>>>
>>> I'm thankful that I'm an operator and not a politician. The only  
>>> time
>>> I've ever known anyone to have so much time to dig up dirt on  
>>> others is
>>> in politics. What a waste of production time.
>>>
>>> As it has already been pointed out, Section 9.2 of the Member  
>>> Mailing
>>> List AUP is here:
>>>
>>> http://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#nine2
>>>
>>> If anything, for sanity sakes, at least propose a solution to  
>>> what you
>>> think is wrong instead of a blanket 'get rid of the board and the  
>>> AC'
>>> with a boat load of crap to go with it.
>>>
>>> Whether someone is a criminal, has been accused of being a  
>>> criminal or
>>> was a criminal, if they can adequately suit the needs of the  
>>> people they
>>> are serving, why judge them on that. Cast the first stone.
>>>
>>> It is claimed that ARIN is wasting money because there is no  
>>> benefit to
>>> the community they serve (WRT spending on travel for trade shows).
>>> However, there has been no documentation to the contrary that states
>>> their spending on attendance to these trade shows has had a negative
>>> impact either.
>>>
>>> My .02. I don't care anymore. I thought that monitoring these lists
>>> would actually provide some benefit to myself, the organization  
>>> that I
>>> work for and most importantly the continuance of decent policy  
>>> into the
>>> future.
>>>
>>> On a side, but related note, if IP related policy is ever  
>>> proposed that
>>> does not involve those who have at least some operational/ 
>>> engineering
>>> relevance, than I oppose of it right off the hop.
>>>
>>> I propose a policy that moves political discussion and  
>>> accusations that
>>> have nothing to do with the basic fundamentals ARIN represents to
>>> something like:
>>>
>>> arin-politics at arin.net
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ARIN-Discuss
>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the  
>>> ARIN Discussion
>>> Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net).
>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please  
>>> contact the ARIN Member
>>> Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
>>
>

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From dean at av8.com  Sat Nov 10 14:54:46 2007
From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 14:54:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOEEIGHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711101435200.24660-100000@citation2.av8.net>

On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

> It is in ARIN's interest to help keep their own meeting costs
> affordable for all attenders. 

I agree.  So ARIN management has to show that joint meetings reduce
ARIN's costs.  So far, ARIN's involvement with NANOG has increased those
ARIN's costs by $130,000+

> You are treading on very squishy ground here.  Granted, for ARIN to pay
> an EXCESSIVE amount of money to share meeting space with NANOG is
> as you say, probably not in ARIN's interest.

This isn't just about sharing meeting space. This is about paying for
ARIN employees and Board Members to attend Nanog meetings. This about
giving ARIN funds directly to NANOG, while the ARIN Board Members have
conflicts of interest.  That ground is not squishy at all. The ground is
getting hard and interesting for people who read draft charge books.

> But, who am I kidding.  Clearly you just don't want to have any
> benefits whatsoever go to NANOG even if doing this would be cutting
> off ARIN's nose to spite it's face - so let's just agree here that
> your not going to see reason on this issue no matter what.

Nonsense. I have no objection to ARIN sending an invited speaker to
NANOG meetings to inform Nanog members about what ARIN is doing. But
that's where ARIN's charter ends.  Sending $130,000 to NANOG isn't in
the charter. ARIN isn't chartered to do actual network operations, even 
if NANOG were an honest organization where that was done.

		--Dean

-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
617 344 9000   





From mksmith at adhost.com  Sat Nov 10 16:03:19 2007
From: mksmith at adhost.com (Michael Smith)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:03:19 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711101435200.24660-100000@citation2.av8.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711101435200.24660-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <673BAC3F-54B0-4949-A930-A07DA044FBF6@adhost.com>


On Nov 10, 2007, at 11:54 AM, Dean Anderson wrote:

> On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>
>> It is in ARIN's interest to help keep their own meeting costs
>> affordable for all attenders.
>
> I agree.  So ARIN management has to show that joint meetings reduce
> ARIN's costs.  So far, ARIN's involvement with NANOG has increased  
> those
> ARIN's costs by $130,000+

I decided to poke around on the RIPE and APNIC sites and look through  
their budget line items.  There are lots of places it could be hidden,  
but it appears that neither organization gives money directly to one  
of the NOG's in their region.  In fact, it looks like APNIC receives  
support from them as opposed to giving support to them.
>
>
>> You are treading on very squishy ground here.  Granted, for ARIN to  
>> pay
>> an EXCESSIVE amount of money to share meeting space with NANOG is
>> as you say, probably not in ARIN's interest.
>
> This isn't just about sharing meeting space. This is about paying for
> ARIN employees and Board Members to attend Nanog meetings. This about
> giving ARIN funds directly to NANOG, while the ARIN Board Members have
> conflicts of interest.  That ground is not squishy at all. The  
> ground is
> getting hard and interesting for people who read draft charge books.

Again, in looking at RIPE and APNIC, the travel expenses for ARIN are  
far and away higher than the other two.  Anecdotally, I would think  
that travel in the APNIC region would be significantly higher than in  
the ARIN region.  I don't know whether or not this is evidence of  
conflict of interest, but it is interesting regardless of the reasons.
>
>
>> But, who am I kidding.  Clearly you just don't want to have any
>> benefits whatsoever go to NANOG even if doing this would be cutting
>> off ARIN's nose to spite it's face - so let's just agree here that
>> your not going to see reason on this issue no matter what.
>
> Nonsense. I have no objection to ARIN sending an invited speaker to
> NANOG meetings to inform Nanog members about what ARIN is doing. But
> that's where ARIN's charter ends.  Sending $130,000 to NANOG isn't in
> the charter. ARIN isn't chartered to do actual network operations,  
> even
> if NANOG were an honest organization where that was done.

Leaving out the honesty statement, I agree that it is interesting that  
we send 50k annually to NANOG/Merit and, I'm assuming, also pay  
through the travel expenses to send ARIN "staff" to the meetings as  
well.

What I see is a lot of questions about how the money is being spent.   
I think it would serve ARIN well to give a breakdown of these various  
expenses to bring the issue to a close, one way or the other.

Regards,

Michael Smith
mksmith at adhost.com


From dean at av8.com  Sat Nov 10 16:07:36 2007
From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:07:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <4734F50E.5050205@ibctech.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711101441450.24660-100000@citation2.av8.net>


On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Steve Bertrand wrote:
> 
> I'm thankful that I'm an operator and not a politician. The only time
> I've ever known anyone to have so much time to dig up dirt on others is
> in politics. What a waste of production time.

This is the ARIN membership list. The membership have to consider how 
ARIN is run.

I see that you are an operations person. This is not an operations list.  
Perhaps your CEO or CFO or corporate counsel is the appropriate contact
for this list. Its probably your company that is the member of ARIN.  
These issues and arguments are probably hard to follow if you aren't
already qualified to be a CEO or CFO, and know something about the rules
and laws the govern the operation of corporations, rather than the
operation of networks.  I'll try to put the issues in different terms.
But if you don't know what a fiduciary is, or what it means to violate
the charter of a corporation, or if you are totally ignorant of business
law, then you'll won't be able to understand much.  But the CEO or CFO
should, particularly if their company is publicly traded or has more
than a few shareholders.

> If anything, for sanity sakes, at least propose a solution to what you
> think is wrong instead of a blanket 'get rid of the board and the AC'
> with a boat load of crap to go with it.

I think you expect a technical solution to an organizational and legal
problem. A non-profit membership organization has rules that it must
follow.  What is wrong is that those rules have been broken. When such
rules are broken, the Board Members, who are supposed to ensure the
rules and laws are followed, resign or are removed. In more serious
cases, suit or sometimes, depending on the facts, criminal charges can
be filed.

In this case, what is wrong is that a number of the Board Members are
suspected of ties to organized crime.  "Organized crime" is not a
misapplied term. There was a Temporary Restraining Order to that effect
(7 claims including intentional and negligent misrepresentation,
extortion, and violation of the Colorado Organized Crime Control Act)
against one Board Member. This Board Member (Vixie) has also pretended
to be an extreme anti-spammer.  But it has been learned recently that
Vixie is/was a Board Member of a spam company known as Whitehat, and has
been since the 1990s.  Vixie used his MAPS blacklist to interfere with
his Whitehat competition. Vixie also told people that his blacklist
efforts were non-profit. This also turned out to be false.

When the TRO was filed, it wasn't known that Vixie was making money from
these operations. Vixie claimed to be making no money on the MAPS
effort. It wasn't know that this was false, and it wasn't known that he
was making money from spam.  So, the Attorneys could only conclude that
Vixie was simply harming the other company improperly; They made him
stop. But later we have learned that Vixie was earning profit from MAPS
and had interests in a spam company. So, Vixie was a spammer using a
commercial blacklist to hurt his competition. Making money from that
changes the nature of the activity.

NANOG has engaged in activities to encourage unlawful access to email by
misleading network operators to think that Electronic Communications
Privacy Law don't apply to ISPs.  Anyone who objected, (including
myself, but there were many others) were silenced. I was threatened with
physical violence.  So many were silenced that in 2005 a reform effort
was organized, but failed to halt the objectionable behavior.

A number of NANOG personalities have engaged in very disturbing
behavior:
 -- They have disrupted the network facilities of spammers who were
competitors of Vixie/Joffe/Levine/Everett-Church's spam operation,
whitehat.com
 -- They have engaged in their own spam operations while inciting
network operators to assist them (illegally) to work against their spam
competitors.
 -- Unrestrained threats of violence against people who offered 
reasonable (and it turns out correct) opinions that privacy laws apply 
to ISPs.
 -- They have intentionally disrupted AV8 Internet's network.
 -- They have falsely claimed that Netblocks used by AV8 Internet are
hijacked.
 -- Susan Harris and others have attempted to suppress information about
disreputable blacklists.
 -- They have engaged in extortion of SAVVIS with Spamhaus, forcing
SAVVIS to terminate its CAN-SPAM compliant customers by using
confidential SAVVIS documents provided by a SAVVIS employee.  Spamhaus
ROKSO doesn't list Vixie/Joffe et al's Whitehat. The SAVVIS disruption
probably benefited Whitehat as well.

These are not proper activities for an educational organization. So
NANOG isn't a proper recipient of ARIN funds for those reasons. This
NANOG activity has benefited Vixie and others.  Curran, Manning,
Woodcock, Conrad, Vixie all participated in NANOG during the period of
this activity.  They made no objection and went along with this improper
activity, even when serious charges of ties to organized crime surfaced.  
But even if it weren't for those reasons, NANOG _STILL_ wouldn't be a
proper recipient of ARIN funds, because ARIN isn't chartered to give
funds to groups like NANOG, and because the ARIN Board Members have
conflicts of interest.

Because of the lack of charter to support NANOG, and the conflict of
interest of Board Members the funds given to NANOG were improper.  The
transfer is even more improper due to the nefarious non-educational
activities of NANOG and the ties persons suspected of ties to organized
crime.  The impoperly transferred ARIN funds given to NANOG through
unjustified conference fees and through a $50,000 lump sum, add to
approximately $120,000. 

Then we have the issue of the unjustified tradeshows such as VON. That
expense is buried in the $1.2million travel line item.  That line item
increased by 46% or about $400,000 recently. There is some improper
spending (several VON's at least) and there appears to be lot more there
to be discovered on a close look.

Altogether, these issues mean that Curran, Manning, Vixie, and Woodcock
are unfit to be fiduciaries of ARIN and should be removed as Board
Members of ARIN.

> Whether someone is a criminal, has been accused of being a criminal or
> was a criminal, if they can adequately suit the needs of the people
> they are serving, why judge them on that. Cast the first stone.

That's just the point: They aren't serving the needs of the people they
are serving. They are serving their own interests.  Perhaps that's the
end result that operations people can understand.

> It is claimed that ARIN is wasting money because there is no benefit
> to the community they serve (WRT spending on travel for trade shows).
> However, there has been no documentation to the contrary that states
> their spending on attendance to these trade shows has had a negative
> impact either.

That's not the criterion for spending money for a corporation,
particularly a non-profit corporation.  I suggest you try submitting an
expense report that says "the company wasn't harmed by this expense". In
fact, any expense that is unjustified or unjustifiable, harms the
corporation because it improperly wastes the companies resources. When
that expense adds to at least $120,000, and may go higher still, people
will take notice.

		--Dean

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617 344 9000   






From jcurran at istaff.org  Sat Nov 10 18:02:13 2007
From: jcurran at istaff.org (John Curran)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:02:13 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711101441450.24660-100000@citation2.av8.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711101441450.24660-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <p0624080fc35be1ef4e93@[192.168.3.76]>

At 4:07 PM -0500 11/10/07, Dean Anderson wrote:
>...

Good Evening Dean -

   I see that you disagree with some of ARIN's expenditures in
   education and outreach, as is your prerogative.  Both myself
   and ARIN's Treasurer Lee Howard have already responded at
   length on the direction from the community to increase our
   outreach and education efforts (particularly in light of the
   IPv6 transition before us).

   ARIN's expenditures are a very important and worthwhile
   topic for discussion, both on this mailing list and in the public
   meetings.  In order to keep things productive, I'd ask that
   you focus on specific recommendations for what ARIN should
   or should not be doing, and deter from personal attacks.  This
   will allow others on the list to best understand your proposals
   and promote informed discussion in general.

/John
  



From tedm at ipinc.net  Sat Nov 10 23:13:28 2007
From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 20:13:28 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711101435200.24660-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOKEIJHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>



>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dean Anderson [mailto:dean at av8.com]
>Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 11:55 AM
>To: Ted Mittelstaedt
>Cc: John Curran; arin-discuss at arin.net
>Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
>
>
>On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>
>> It is in ARIN's interest to help keep their own meeting costs
>> affordable for all attenders. 
>
>I agree.  So ARIN management has to show that joint meetings reduce
>ARIN's costs.

That is NOT what I said.  I said "all attenders" not just ARIN
employees.

>So far, ARIN's involvement with NANOG has increased those
>ARIN's costs by $130,000+
>

Assuming that is true I see no problem IF the TOTAL costs that
were spent by ALL attenders were at least $130,000 LOWER as
a result of attending the joint meetings.

ARIN staff is paid by our dues.  Either we pay more money for
double hotel rooms/flights/food for our staff that we send to
these meetings, or we pay slightly more in dues to cover the
increased expense to ARIN of holding joint meetings.  The smart
thing is to pay the lower of the two TOTAL costs.  Thus, if
ARIN and NANOG hold joint meetings and our increased ARIN dues
as a result of this are, say $500, but our increased costs to
send our employee to a separate NANOG meeting would be, say, $1000,
why then we are stupid to tell ARIN not to hold a joint meeting
with NANOG.  THAT is what the ARIN mangement needs to prove.

Ted


From michael.dillon at bt.com  Sun Nov 11 08:02:40 2007
From: michael.dillon at bt.com (michael.dillon at bt.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:02:40 -0000
Subject: [arin-discuss] Method for Unsubscribing to the
	ARIN-Discussmaillist
In-Reply-To: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOKEIFHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>
References: <EACF8B735E9CBA4B8BAF9E4165D030871CBA4D@ex1.cait.wustl.edu>
	<NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOKEIFHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <D03E4899F2FB3D4C8464E8C76B3B68B0015BBC20@E03MVC4-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>

	 
>The very best thing you can do with these unprintable people is to
forward
>their so-called unsubscribe requests to the member services help desk
at
>ARIN with a notation that we got another moron that is trying to
unsubscribe
>without reading the instructions, and to please do it manually for
them.

This rather defeats the purpose of having an open membership
discussion forum. Far better to have the member services help
desk contact the member and see if they will add ARIN-DISCUSS 
to their whitelist, or else find another member representative
who is willing to participate in discussion.

--Michael Dillon


From tburling at tulix.com  Sun Nov 11 14:08:24 2007
From: tburling at tulix.com (Tom Burling)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:08:24 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Irrelevance
Message-ID: <000001c82496$3f33e8c0$6a02a8c0@TBURLINGXP>

Sorry guys, this is it. Until you fix this thing, I'm off the list.  And
as a note to someone who wants to monopolize (and ruin) this forum I am
a CFO of a public reporting corporation, and understand corporate
management and fiduciary responsibilities. I also agree that for ARIN to
operate without input from the TECHNICAL people that rely upon its
functioning, it is operating in the dark.  They should not only be
allowed to participate, they should be encouraged to do so.

I'm not some junior manager, I'm an old man with almost thirty years in
corporate management - and I don't have time to read what has basically
become more annoying than SPAM.  To ARIN, when you fix this forum let me
know. I'd like to participate in a serious dialogue.

'Til then, I've opted out.

Thomas R. Burling, CFO
Tulix System, Inc.
55 Marietta Street
Suite 1740
Atlanta, GA 30303
O: (404) 584.5035 x 223
F: (404) 584.5079
C: (770) 815.7075
tburling at tulix.com
AIM: OldFodder

TULIX:TOMORROW'S TECHNOLOGY TODAY
___________________________________________

See The Latest Intelligent Applications For Broadband Providers Built By
Tulix;
  
http://demo4.tulix.com, http://www.tulix.com/boss.php,
http://www.cellwebtown.com, http://www.musicwebtown.com,
http://www.photowebtown.com, http://www.videowebtown.com
http://www.backupwebtown.com, http://www.streamwebtown.com 







From dean at av8.com  Sun Nov 11 14:39:03 2007
From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:39:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOKEIJHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711111431190.12508-100000@citation2.av8.net>

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

> >> It is in ARIN's interest to help keep their own meeting costs
> >> affordable for all attenders. 
> >
> >I agree.  So ARIN management has to show that joint meetings reduce
> >ARIN's costs.
> 
> That is NOT what I said.  I said "all attenders" not just ARIN
> employees.

Huh? What do ARIN employees have to do with the joint meeting costs?  
But if ARIN's meeting costs are increased (at the financial benefit of
some members) that's also improper.

> >So far, ARIN's involvement with NANOG has increased those ARIN's
> >costs by $130,000+
> >
> 
> Assuming that is true I see no problem IF the TOTAL costs that were
> spent by ALL attenders were at least $130,000 LOWER as a result of
> attending the joint meetings.
>
> ARIN staff is paid by our dues.  Either we pay more money for double
> hotel rooms/flights/food for our staff that we send to these meetings,
> or we pay slightly more in dues to cover the increased expense to ARIN
> of holding joint meetings.  The smart thing is to pay the lower of the
> two TOTAL costs.  Thus, if ARIN and NANOG hold joint meetings and our
> increased ARIN dues as a result of this are, say $500, but our
> increased costs to send our employee to a separate NANOG meeting would
> be, say, $1000, why then we are stupid to tell ARIN not to hold a
> joint meeting with NANOG.  THAT is what the ARIN mangement needs to
> prove.

That benefits _ONLY_ NANOG members. That is an improper transfer of ARIN
funds when it increases (rather than decreases) ARIN expenses. ARIN
management can't be concerned about NANOG funding. If it helps ARIN
reduce costs, there is an argument. If it costs ARIN more, there isn't.

If it costs a few NANOG members more, that's irrelevant to ARIN.

		--Dean





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From dean at av8.com  Sun Nov 11 15:28:22 2007
From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 15:28:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <p0624080fc35be1ef4e93@[192.168.3.76]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711111439150.12508-100000@citation2.av8.net>

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007, John Curran wrote:

> At 4:07 PM -0500 11/10/07, Dean Anderson wrote:
> 
> Good Evening Dean -
> 
>    I see that you disagree with some of ARIN's expenditures in
>    education and outreach, as is your prerogative.  Both myself
>    and ARIN's Treasurer Lee Howard have already responded at
>    length on the direction from the community to increase our
>    outreach and education efforts (particularly in light of the
>    IPv6 transition before us).

I haven't seen any detail to these responses. The responses have been
essentially platitudes to say that nothing is wrong, when obviously
things are wrong, and I keep finding larger numbers of "wrongness", even
without your cooperation.

>    ARIN's expenditures are a very important and worthwhile
>    topic for discussion, both on this mailing list and in the public
>    meetings.  In order to keep things productive, I'd ask that
>    you focus on specific recommendations for what ARIN should
>    or should not be doing, and deter from personal attacks.  

I haven't made any personal attacks, and I don't generally make
frivolous personal remarks of any sort.  A "personal attack" is distinct
from an allegation of misconduct. The personal attack has two necessary
elements: It must be personal, and it must be irrelevant.  By contrast,
allegations of misconduct, though personal, are relevant to the ARIN
organization, the questions I'm asking, and to the irregular activity
that has been discovered to date.  Persons accused of misconduct often
try to deflect the criticism as a personal attack, instead of an
allegation of misconduct. They do this in the hope of either silencing
the criticism or deflecting the discussion away from the details of the
alleged misconduct and into the difference between personal attack and
relevant misconduct.

>    This
>    will allow others on the list to best understand your proposals
>    and promote informed discussion in general.

Since you are among those accused of involvement in the irregularities,
and since so far you have been unresponsive to (for example) providing
accounting details on how much has been spent on which conferences, and
since you have been dismissive of the misconduct issues generally, I am
doubtful of your sincere interest to promote informed discussion and
investigation of that misconduct and irregular activity; and I am more
doubtful that you will, on your own initiative, provide appropriate
corrective measures. You have twice tried to end the discussion and
investigation, but you fail to recognize your conflict of interest in
that effort.  Other Board Members may also want to avoid the ensuing
scandal.  That is why there are laws regarding corporations. You aren't
the first to have engaged in this kind of activity.  Ignoring the facts
on these sort of issues has a way of becoming very nasty, and there is
no point in protecting your associates unless you have more to lose by
allowing the investigation.  I urge you to hire outside counsel to
investigate the activities of the Board of Directors and the management.  
Or resign.

But I and other members plan to continue to investigate. And having
found sufficient amounts of wrongfully spent money, I and other ARIN
members will seek removal of the Board Members involved.  ARIN members,
including me, have a right to the cooperation of ARIN staff, and have
the right to inspect ARIN records in pursuing this investigation.  
Efforts to impede that investigation cannot succeed. While one of the
Board Members has previously tried a legal strategy of essentially
intransigence, that strategy failed previously. I hope that you do not
try that strategy.

		--Dean


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From jcurran at istaff.org  Sun Nov 11 15:45:17 2007
From: jcurran at istaff.org (John Curran)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 15:45:17 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711111439150.12508-100000@citation2.av8.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711111439150.12508-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <p0624080fc35d16eeb9c9@[192.168.3.76]>

Dean - 
 
    Actually, I've encouraged you to discuss any issues you see
    related to ARIN's governance, and have made a conscience 
    effort to respond with relevant background where it might 
    help clarify ARIN's policies and practices.

    As a founding Board member and chairman over the last 
    ten years of ARIN's operation, I can say I'm actually quite
    proud of its performance and fidelity to the mission.  If you
    feel there is a concern, you have every right to investigate
    such; my message was merely a suggestion that you do 
    so on the mailing list in manner that the rest of community
    finds on-topic and productive.

/John


From dean at av8.com  Sun Nov 11 15:51:16 2007
From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 15:51:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711111431190.12508-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711111530550.12508-100000@citation2.av8.net>

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007, Dean Anderson wrote:
> 
> That benefits _ONLY_ NANOG members. That is an improper transfer of ARIN
> funds when it increases (rather than decreases) ARIN expenses. ARIN
> management can't be concerned about NANOG funding. If it helps ARIN
> reduce costs, there is an argument. If it costs ARIN more, there isn't.
> 
> If it costs a few NANOG members more, that's irrelevant to ARIN.

I perhaps didn't explain why off-books "savings" are irrelevant.  
Anyone can imagine any amount of money that could be "saved"  off-books
by other people. If that were allowed, we'd be able to have meetings
anywhere in the world on the premise that doing so would save some few a
lot of money (enough to offset the cost of the expensive and otherwise
unjustified meeting location).  Having meetings in the Swiss Alps could
save a lot of us the plane ticket to go on vacation there.  Our saved
vacation expenses aren't relevant to ARIN.  We try to do that a often
enough by picking US vacation spots for meetings. What matters is what's
on ARIN's books. Did that decrease or increase by this joint meeting
scheme?  If it decreased, then they're geniuses. If it increased, that's
bad; At the least, its poor management; At the worst, depending on the
amounts, the personal benefits obtained, and other factors I won't
detail, there could be corruption charges.  I'd say we are in the
middle, right now.  Of course, when ignored, things get worse.

The Board is supposed to ensure good management and prevent bad
management.  When they ignore problems, they create serious problems for
themselves, especially when they are among the beneficiaries of ignoring
the problems.

		--Dean


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From Scott.Shackelford at cox.com  Sun Nov 11 16:22:53 2007
From: Scott.Shackelford at cox.com (Scott.Shackelford at cox.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:22:53 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711111530550.12508-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <F458E71667DE004CB135F8E4BFC2FFA3035DC19A@CATL0MS02.corp.cox.com>



Dean, 
 
 Regardless of the validity or accuracy of of the intent of theses threads, they are becoming  very counter productive.

The very participation that this mailing list encourages; your tone and persistence has begun to remove. Please look around and notice the growing number of 'unsubscribes' that have occurred in the recent past. There is a direct correlation here.
 Respectfully, I don't know your employment (nor do I need to), but you seem to have time in your day for deep research and calculation of your topics. For those of us that don't have that kind of time, these threads have become a menace.

I would encourage you to foster this kind of enthusiasm and vigor towards some viable IPv6 solutions. 

Regards.

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net on behalf of Dean Anderson
Sent: Sun 11/11/2007 3:51 PM
To: Ted Mittelstaedt
Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
 
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007, Dean Anderson wrote:
> 
> That benefits _ONLY_ NANOG members. That is an improper transfer of ARIN
> funds when it increases (rather than decreases) ARIN expenses. ARIN
> management can't be concerned about NANOG funding. If it helps ARIN
> reduce costs, there is an argument. If it costs ARIN more, there isn't.
> 
> If it costs a few NANOG members more, that's irrelevant to ARIN.

I perhaps didn't explain why off-books "savings" are irrelevant.  
Anyone can imagine any amount of money that could be "saved"  off-books
by other people. If that were allowed, we'd be able to have meetings
anywhere in the world on the premise that doing so would save some few a
lot of money (enough to offset the cost of the expensive and otherwise
unjustified meeting location).  Having meetings in the Swiss Alps could
save a lot of us the plane ticket to go on vacation there.  Our saved
vacation expenses aren't relevant to ARIN.  We try to do that a often
enough by picking US vacation spots for meetings. What matters is what's
on ARIN's books. Did that decrease or increase by this joint meeting
scheme?  If it decreased, then they're geniuses. If it increased, that's
bad; At the least, its poor management; At the worst, depending on the
amounts, the personal benefits obtained, and other factors I won't
detail, there could be corruption charges.  I'd say we are in the
middle, right now.  Of course, when ignored, things get worse.

The Board is supposed to ensure good management and prevent bad
management.  When they ignore problems, they create serious problems for
themselves, especially when they are among the beneficiaries of ignoring
the problems.

		--Dean


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From dean at av8.com  Sun Nov 11 17:02:01 2007
From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:02:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Irrelevance (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711111632300.12508-100000@citation2.av8.net>

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007, Tom Burling wrote:

> Sorry guys, this is it. Until you fix this thing, I'm off the list.  

It is strange that a senior manager with public corporation experience
should be so intolerant of the views of others.

> And as a note to someone who wants to monopolize (and ruin) this forum

I haven't "monopolized" anything.  You are free to post about anything
you like, including your extreme dislike of accountability.

> I am a CFO of a public reporting corporation, and understand corporate
> management and fiduciary responsibilities.

It is unclear that you fully understand those responsibilities, if you
are unaware of the right of members/shareholders to investigate
misconduct in an organization.  You should know that there is nothing to
"fix". "Fixing", as I take your meaning, just creates the both the facts
and the appearance of a coverup of misconduct or corruption.  You should
have learned that in 30 years. If corporate officers and Board Members
could silence members or shareholders, and refuse cooperation and access
to documents, there would never be any corruption charges: No one would
be able to find anything out. You should know that, as a CFO.  But I can
perhaps understand why CFO's might resent those particular rights of
members and shareholders.

> I also agree that for ARIN to operate without input from the TECHNICAL
> people that rely upon its functioning, it is operating in the dark.  
> They should not only be allowed to participate, they should be
> encouraged to do so.

I've never said that ARIN should operate without the input of technical
people. Please don't misrepresent my position.  Giving $120,000+ to 
NANOG is not required to obtain 'technical input'.

> I'm not some junior manager, I'm an old man with almost thirty years
> in corporate management - and I don't have time to read what has
> basically become more annoying than SPAM.  To ARIN, when you fix this
> forum let me know. I'd like to participate in a serious dialogue.

It is strange that you object to spam, but don't object to spammers
running ARIN.

But I'm glad that you object to spam. If spammers weren't running the
anti-spam efforts and making money from both, I'm sure there would be
less spam.

		--Dean

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From neteng at farm-market.net  Sun Nov 11 17:17:29 2007
From: neteng at farm-market.net (Terri Kelley)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:17:29 -0600
Subject: [arin-discuss] Irrelevance (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711111632300.12508-100000@citation2.av8.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711111632300.12508-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <F3D141FE-06A4-4655-9CE4-DD34C534C6D0@farm-market.net>

Well, I to have had enough and going off list.
Surprising how little someone may know about someone else but
their replies are along the same lines as other comments.

Terri Kelley



On Nov 11, 2007, at 4:02 PM, Dean Anderson wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Nov 2007, Tom Burling wrote:
>
>> Sorry guys, this is it. Until you fix this thing, I'm off the list.
>
> It is strange that a senior manager with public corporation experience
> should be so intolerant of the views of others.
>
>> And as a note to someone who wants to monopolize (and ruin) this  
>> forum
>
> I haven't "monopolized" anything.  You are free to post about anything
> you like, including your extreme dislike of accountability.
>
>> I am a CFO of a public reporting corporation, and understand  
>> corporate
>> management and fiduciary responsibilities.
>
> It is unclear that you fully understand those responsibilities, if you
> are unaware of the right of members/shareholders to investigate
> misconduct in an organization.  You should know that there is  
> nothing to
> "fix". "Fixing", as I take your meaning, just creates the both the  
> facts
> and the appearance of a coverup of misconduct or corruption.  You  
> should
> have learned that in 30 years. If corporate officers and Board Members
> could silence members or shareholders, and refuse cooperation and  
> access
> to documents, there would never be any corruption charges: No one  
> would
> be able to find anything out. You should know that, as a CFO.  But  
> I can
> perhaps understand why CFO's might resent those particular rights of
> members and shareholders.
>
>> I also agree that for ARIN to operate without input from the  
>> TECHNICAL
>> people that rely upon its functioning, it is operating in the dark.
>> They should not only be allowed to participate, they should be
>> encouraged to do so.
>
> I've never said that ARIN should operate without the input of  
> technical
> people. Please don't misrepresent my position.  Giving $120,000+ to
> NANOG is not required to obtain 'technical input'.
>
>> I'm not some junior manager, I'm an old man with almost thirty years
>> in corporate management - and I don't have time to read what has
>> basically become more annoying than SPAM.  To ARIN, when you fix this
>> forum let me know. I'd like to participate in a serious dialogue.
>
> It is strange that you object to spam, but don't object to spammers
> running ARIN.
>
> But I'm glad that you object to spam. If spammers weren't running the
> anti-spam efforts and making money from both, I'm sure there would be
> less spam.

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From neteng at farm-market.net  Sun Nov 11 17:18:36 2007
From: neteng at farm-market.net (Terri Kelley)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:18:36 -0600
Subject: [arin-discuss] unsubscribe
Message-ID: <6C9B9683-40FA-4870-8CED-26966CB4CDFA@farm-market.net>

unsubscribe




Terri Kelley
Network Engineer
254-697-6710

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This email message is intended only for the named recipient(s) above,  
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From dean at av8.com  Sun Nov 11 18:15:58 2007
From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:15:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <F458E71667DE004CB135F8E4BFC2FFA3035DC19A@CATL0MS02.corp.cox.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711111714160.12508-100000@citation2.av8.net>

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 Scott.Shackelford at cox.com wrote:
>  Regardless of the validity or accuracy of of the intent of theses
> threads, they are becoming very counter productive.

I think people such Steve Bertrand have been asking reasonable and
thoughtful questions.  Board Members have been short on facts. Getting
Board Members to produce facts is productive. Explaining the facts known
so far, and persuading members to support removal of Board Members is
productive.

But I am spending way too much time arguing with detractors over
unimportant side issues. I'll try to avoid that.

> The very participation that this mailing list encourages; your tone
> and persistence has begun to remove. Please look around and notice the
> growing number of 'unsubscribes' that have occurred in the recent
> past. There is a direct correlation here.

As Ted noted already, most of the 'unsubscribes' are bogus. (Except for
Mr.  Burling, apparently). They are the result of an anti-spam tool.  
(Who do we know that might use an anti-spam tool for something other
than blocking spam?)

>  Respectfully, I don't know your employment (nor do I need to), but
> you seem to have time in your day for deep research and calculation of
> your topics.

I don't really have a lot of time in my day. But I've already researched
a lot of these things over the last 10 years.  I've been well motivated
to do that research. I started this when I was physically threatened on
Nanog for suggesting that the ECPA applies to ISPs. I knew something was
wrong when no one in authority objected to that. So I thought I better
find out the details of what was going on. Its pretty ugly. Since then,
I'm motivated by having to deal with SORBS blocks a couple times a month
by some company who didn't know better I have to prove to them out
netblocks aren't hijacked. Fortunately most know better.  And I've had
to deal with illegal network disruption (publishing short routes to our
netblocks)  for several days a while back. And other behavior by the
people I've noted. I don't have any other choice but to find out what
they are up to, and why they are attacking me for making reasonable and
true statements.

That's how I came to find out a lot of these things.

And having already found out a lot of things, I can put new things
together pretty fast. For example, I already knew who the major
beneficiaries of NANOG are; I have files on these people, put together
over the last 10 years.  I already knew who Vixie's officemate was,
although he apparently didn't think that possible for me to find out and
had forgotten mentioning it; I had it filed. I have a database of NANOG
attendees, and am planning to build a database of ARIN members to
crossreference the number of ARIN members who participate in NANOG. I
don't think there are many, but I plan to find out the exact number.

The ARIN/NANOG scandal is probably just the final chapter in NANOG; As I
already mentioned, NANOG is dying, starved for funds because so few
attend.  The operations staff in the US alone number in the 10s, perhaps
100s of thousands, yet NANOG never gets more than a few hundred. This is
because of the activities of the core people.  Nanog attendees basically
come in two flavors: Those that come to just a few meetings and then
drop it; and those that come to 14+. There are only about 50 in the
second category. And growth is negative or flat.  If I were to guess,
Merit decided not to continue NANOG at a loss, and Susan Harris when to
Curran et al and said essentially "you benefit, so give me money".  And
they gave her ARIN's money.  That was wrong of them. They will have to
resign. And as you can also see, serious charges have already been filed
once. There seems to be just two possible endings. But it won't
continue.

There is still a lot to learn:  There are other conferences where money
is being wasted.  There are hotel bills for sending ARIN employees to
NANOG. There are lost work days attending NANOG. I don't have exact
values, but these expenses add up. Reducing these expenses means ARIN
fees can go down.  Getting better managers means that other waste can be
found, reduced, or not be wasted in the first place. That stabilizes the
future.

> For those of us that don't have that kind of time, these threads have
> become a menace.

Menace?

> I would encourage you to foster this kind of enthusiasm and vigor
> towards some viable IPv6 solutions.

I have some ideas on that. :-)

And I'm working on a proposal for a low change legacy registry, too.

		--Dean

-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
617 344 9000   





From bicknell at ufp.org  Sun Nov 11 21:36:31 2007
From: bicknell at ufp.org (Leo Bicknell)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:36:31 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <673BAC3F-54B0-4949-A930-A07DA044FBF6@adhost.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711101435200.24660-100000@citation2.av8.net>
	<673BAC3F-54B0-4949-A930-A07DA044FBF6@adhost.com>
Message-ID: <20071112023631.GA72774@ussenterprise.ufp.org>

In a message written on Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 01:03:19PM -0800, Michael Smith wrote:
> Again, in looking at RIPE and APNIC, the travel expenses for ARIN are  
> far and away higher than the other two.  Anecdotally, I would think  
> that travel in the APNIC region would be significantly higher than in  
> the ARIN region.  I don't know whether or not this is evidence of  
> conflict of interest, but it is interesting regardless of the reasons.

One item of interest may be that ARIN is the only RIR with an
Advistory Council in the policy development process.  While those
of us on the AC are unpaid volunteers, ARIN does pick up our travel
costs to the meetings.  ARIN sends two of the fifteen AC members
to each of the other RIR's primary meetings.

-- 
       Leo Bicknell - bicknell at ufp.org - CCIE 3440
        PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/
Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request at tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org


From steve at ibctech.ca  Mon Nov 12 00:27:01 2007
From: steve at ibctech.ca (Steve Bertrand)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:27:01 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711111714160.12508-100000@citation2.av8.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711111714160.12508-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <4737E425.8080303@ibctech.ca>

Dean Anderson wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 Scott.Shackelford at cox.com wrote:
>>  Regardless of the validity or accuracy of of the intent of theses
>> threads, they are becoming very counter productive.
> 
> I think people such Steve Bertrand have been asking reasonable and
> thoughtful questions.  Board Members have been short on facts. Getting
> Board Members to produce facts is productive. Explaining the facts known
> so far, and persuading members to support removal of Board Members is
> productive.

Hrm... I honestly don't know if this is a sarcastic comment or not
regarding my posts. It's hard to tell...What I do know is there needs to
be a pretty good consensus of members to vote out the board, and I
really don't see that happening here...

> But I am spending way too much time arguing with detractors over
> unimportant side issues. I'll try to avoid that.

My name was brought up personally, so now here's my peace.

How are you arguing? The last x^x threads have not been arguing. It has
been a one against x^x onslaught. It needs to stop. This argument was
dead in what, 2006?

>> The very participation that this mailing list encourages; your tone
>> and persistence has begun to remove. Please look around and notice the
>> growing number of 'unsubscribes' that have occurred in the recent
>> past. There is a direct correlation here.
> 
> As Ted noted already, most of the 'unsubscribes' are bogus. 

Bullshit! I am a real person, and so are many others I have spoken to
off list who are wanting to unsub.

Please, chill out. I don't care anymore what anyone says. ARIN needs
input from operation to make logical decisions that will have a direct
affect on global Internet routing.

All RIR's must agree to a common ground, and it should almost be
expected that North America would come up with an initial policy that
will perhaps affect the world.

As I see it, there can be no way that ARIN can enforce a numbering
policy that has the potential to affect the globe without first taking
into consideration fact or at least opinion that of the most senior
engineers/operators who were in this position 10+ years ago.

Do I care where ARIN spends my money? Yes. Do I question where it goes
to? Sure.

Should I spend my time worrying about what the next step is when
millions of dollars have to go out the window to upgrade core
infrastructure because there has been a poor decision in IP assignment
policy? Absolutely not.

When someone forces ARIN's hand, and ARIN produces documentation to
otherwise prove that the money spent on educational *whatever* was a
waste of dollars, then I'll worry. In the meantime, I'll trust that (as
an engineer/operator), ARIN will at minimum take some consideration into
the opinions and decisions that the IETF are moving on, and more
importantly, the BCP that the engineers and operations managers that
frequent NANOG are doing.

PLEASE don't let ARIN distribute IP's in a structural manner, without
any input from the people that actually have to implement them. Sure,
this is politics, and I hate it, but technically this is life for the
next generation.

Steve


From dean at av8.com  Mon Nov 12 04:00:25 2007
From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 04:00:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
In-Reply-To: <4737E425.8080303@ibctech.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711120326220.18925-100000@citation2.av8.net>

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007, Steve Bertrand wrote:
> 
> Hrm... I honestly don't know if this is a sarcastic comment or not
> regarding my posts.  It's hard to tell...What I do know is there needs
> to be a pretty good consensus of members to vote out the board, and I
> really don't see that happening here...

Its not sarcastic. And I do see a consensus developing.  A lot more
people were simply against moderating the discussion. To some extent,
that indicates they have an open mind and perhaps at least want to see
the evidence develop.  Others are contributing on the same side of the
issue.  And there very few NANOG participants in the membership.

But sleeping on it, I think Scott Shackelford makes a very good point.  
Too much discussion could become tedious or distracted. The Board will
also need a reasonable amount of time to respond; I can't ask for
something this morning and complain about non-responsiveness this
afternoon.  Some several days are required for some of the questions.  
So, I'm going to taper off my argument for now, and instead post a
report every few days or once a week on the questions posed to the
Board, and whether the Board has been responsive to the questions. I
think this could go this way for a month or so until just before the
next meeting.  Then I'll report on the findings and make a
recommendation based on findings and responsiveness for whether and
which Board Members should be removed.  Board Members cannot be removed
but by a vote of the membership, and if I read the process for removal
correctly, I think the earliest that can take place is the next meeting.

> How are you arguing? The last x^x threads have not been arguing. It has
> been a one against x^x onslaught. It needs to stop. This argument was
> dead in what, 2006?

Huh?  This issue was just recently brought up to ARIN, just before the 
last meeting.

> > As Ted noted already, most of the 'unsubscribes' are bogus. 
> 
> Bullshit! I am a real person, and so are many others I have spoken to
> off list who are wanting to unsub.

I don't see your name in the unsub posts.  And who have you been talking
to offlist that wants to unsubscribe?  I have these people asking to
unsubscribe:

James Johnson                (5004) [arin-discuss] remove                                  
Miguel Betancourt            (5866) [arin-discuss] REMOVE                                  
Julio Reyes                  (8756) [arin-discuss]  REMOVE                                 
Tom Burling                   (19K) Re: [arin-discuss] REMOVE                              
Brad Pittenger                (14K) Re: [arin-discuss] REMOVE                              
Kapil Bisht                   (17K) Re: [arin-discuss] REMOVE
Terri Kelley                  (21K) [arin-discuss] unsubscribe  

Only Terri Kelley and Tom Burling actually included comments. The others
appear to be automated, as Ted M. points out.



> ARIN needs input from operation to make logical decisions that will
> have a direct affect on global Internet routing.

I agree we need technical Input, yes. But improper transfers and wasted
funds proping up a defunct, dysfunctional organization we don't need.  
ARIN is not in the business of helping NANOG stay afloat.

But I've got no problem sending invited speakers to NANOG. And I've got
no problem with NANOG participants becoming ARIN members.

> PLEASE don't let ARIN distribute IP's in a structural manner, without
> any input from the people that actually have to implement them. Sure,
> this is politics, and I hate it, but technically this is life for the
> next generation.

I agree, that would be bad. But that's why ARIN has members, automatic
membership, and why ARIN has the PPML, and why ARIN has the Advisory
Council, and why we have ICANN/IANA and other organizations to provide
technical support for these issues.  ARIN is not lacking technical
input, and in any case, ARIN has not received any technical input for
its financial support to NANOG.

This isn't a choice between either having no technical input or else
transferring $120,000+ improperly to NANOG, as it seems the few NANOG
proponents describe the issue.


-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
617 344 9000   






From tedm at ipinc.net  Mon Nov 12 14:43:57 2007
From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:43:57 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Irrelevance (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711111632300.12508-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOIEIKHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>


Dean, why are you taking this as some sort of personal insult and why
do you feel the need to respond to these people in a negative fashion?

You don't run the mailing list you have no idea if they have really
unsubscribed or have just decided to go back into lurk mode.

If I had a dollar for every time on a public form I've read people
threatening to unsubscribe as a result of reading something they don't
like I'd be a rich man.

Equating ANYONE's posts on the mailing list with SPAM
is childish and shows the poster has absolutely
no understanding of what real SPAM is, it shows the posters ignorance
is all it does.  I invited Terri Kelly to contribute after his first
unsubscribe threaten, and he refused to do it - that showed his true
colors - clearly the guy or girl or whatever had no plans to stick
around, and just figured as he was leaving to take a pot shot at you.
Tom Burling is just another one of these who also had nothing to
contribute and was obviously planning on
leaving and figured he'd help the community by taking a potshot at
the resident expert on tinfoil hats.

These "I'm gonna unsubscribe if you don't shaddup" posts are mainly
trolling and you either call the troll's bluff like I did with Terri,
or you ignore them.

Ted


>-----Original Message-----
>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Dean Anderson
>Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 2:02 PM
>To: Tom Burling
>Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Irrelevance (fwd)
>
>
>On Sun, 11 Nov 2007, Tom Burling wrote:
>
>> Sorry guys, this is it. Until you fix this thing, I'm off the list.  
>
>It is strange that a senior manager with public corporation experience
>should be so intolerant of the views of others.
>
>> And as a note to someone who wants to monopolize (and ruin) this forum
>
>I haven't "monopolized" anything.  You are free to post about anything
>you like, including your extreme dislike of accountability.
>
>> I am a CFO of a public reporting corporation, and understand corporate
>> management and fiduciary responsibilities.
>
>It is unclear that you fully understand those responsibilities, if you
>are unaware of the right of members/shareholders to investigate
>misconduct in an organization.  You should know that there is nothing to
>"fix". "Fixing", as I take your meaning, just creates the both the facts
>and the appearance of a coverup of misconduct or corruption.  You should
>have learned that in 30 years. If corporate officers and Board Members
>could silence members or shareholders, and refuse cooperation and access
>to documents, there would never be any corruption charges: No one would
>be able to find anything out. You should know that, as a CFO.  But I can
>perhaps understand why CFO's might resent those particular rights of
>members and shareholders.
>
>> I also agree that for ARIN to operate without input from the TECHNICAL
>> people that rely upon its functioning, it is operating in the dark.  
>> They should not only be allowed to participate, they should be
>> encouraged to do so.
>
>I've never said that ARIN should operate without the input of technical
>people. Please don't misrepresent my position.  Giving $120,000+ to 
>NANOG is not required to obtain 'technical input'.
>
>> I'm not some junior manager, I'm an old man with almost thirty years
>> in corporate management - and I don't have time to read what has
>> basically become more annoying than SPAM.  To ARIN, when you fix this
>> forum let me know. I'd like to participate in a serious dialogue.
>
>It is strange that you object to spam, but don't object to spammers
>running ARIN.
>
>But I'm glad that you object to spam. If spammers weren't running the
>anti-spam efforts and making money from both, I'm sure there would be
>less spam.
>
>		--Dean
>
>-- 
>Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
>www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
>617 344 9000   
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>ARIN-Discuss
>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the 
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>


From dean at av8.com  Mon Nov 12 17:30:05 2007
From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:30:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Irrelevance (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOIEIKHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711121729040.19642-100000@citation2.av8.net>

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

> 
> Dean, why are you taking this as some sort of personal insult and why
> do you feel the need to respond to these people in a negative fashion?
> 
> You don't run the mailing list you have no idea if they have really
> unsubscribed or have just decided to go back into lurk mode.

Good point.

		--Dean

-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
617 344 9000   




From ghiscott at keyconnect.com  Mon Nov 12 21:10:49 2007
From: ghiscott at keyconnect.com (G.Hiscott)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:10:49 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Are we going to vote on this ?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711121729040.19642-100000@citation2.av8.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711121729040.19642-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <473907A9.2020300@keyconnect.com>

So the question is:

    Are we going to be able to vote on the removal of the board members 
as a result of the revelations discussed here ?

I sure hope this is not silenced and that every member has a chance to 
learn about what Dean has expressed here and cast a vote!



From jharle at ibahn.com  Mon Nov 12 21:23:00 2007
From: jharle at ibahn.com (Jim Harle)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 19:23:00 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] Legacy RSA
Message-ID: <FBBB4916B8D7421A8976FC987FFC135C@ljharlea>

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007, Dean Anderson apparently wrote:


> And I do see a consensus developing.  A lot more people were simply

> against moderating the discussion. To some extent, that indicates

> they have an open mind and perhaps at least want to see the evidence

> develop.



I'd say I'm one of those people, but to a limited extent.  The information has been too volumonous and complex for operational people like me to process, and I think that attributes to at least a portion of others' frustrations with this and similar threads.  Still, I'm a bit surprised that even the CFOs among us don't seem to have the ability [or tolerance] to filter/sort/screen mailing list messages.



I would make a suggestion, that the subject line for this (whatever "this" is) be changed to something other than "Legacy RSA," as we seem to have drifted away from that topic.



Personally, I'm not much interested in the "improper NANOG transfer," nor the issues you have with some ARIN board members (mainly because I don't have the time to care).  When you started talking about the "spammers being the anti-spammers," and mentioned names that I've been familiar with for years (like John Levine and Matthew Sullivan), my ears perked up, and my curiosity has been tickled...because the spam problem is something I work with and can relate to.  Admittedly, though, I'm not sure how much of the stuff I'm interested in learning more about has to do with ARIN (perhaps off-list is best).



-Jim
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From jcurran at istaff.org  Mon Nov 12 22:41:12 2007
From: jcurran at istaff.org (John Curran)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:41:12 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Are we going to vote on this ?
In-Reply-To: <473907A9.2020300@keyconnect.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711121729040.19642-100000@citation2.av8.net>
	<473907A9.2020300@keyconnect.com>
Message-ID: <p06240801c35ecbd1ceb8@[192.168.3.76]>

At 6:10 PM -0800 11/12/07, G.Hiscott wrote:
>So the question is:
>
>    Are we going to be able to vote on the removal of the board members
>as a result of the revelations discussed here ?

A special meeting and vote to remove a specific elected Trustee may
be held as a result of a motion by the Board of Trustees or the result
of a petition signed by 10% of the general members in good standing:
<http://www.arin.net/about_us/boardguidelines.html#removal>.
As there has not been a petition at this time, no special meeting has
been scheduled.

/John




From Keith at jcc.com  Mon Nov 12 23:05:00 2007
From: Keith at jcc.com (Keith W. Hare)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:05:00 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Are we going to vote on this ?
Message-ID: <7f884d483a7d7befd2d33aec6d3393de4739225e@jcc.com>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net 
> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of G.Hiscott
> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 9:11 PM
> To: Dean Anderson
> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Are we going to vote on this ?
> 
> So the question is:
> 
>     Are we going to be able to vote on the removal of the 
> board members as a result of the revelations discussed here ?

Highly unlikely.

In addition to the fact that the procedural steps John Curran noted have
not yet been taken, I have the following issues with the "relevations"
discussed here:

1.  I have no way of verifying the truth of most of the allegations and
the stuff I might be able to verify would take more time than I have to
spend on this.

2.  Much of this sounds like a rehash of a decade-old feud over
something.

3.  The allegations I've heard so far do not materially affect the
things ARIN needs to do over the next five years.

4.  There are much bigger issues facing ARIN, such as PA versus PI
space, and doing enough education and outreach so that users understand
the IPv4/IPv6 issues to create a market so vendors and LIRs actually
support IPv6 by the time it is needed.

Keith

______________________________________________________________
 
Keith W. Hare                     JCC Consulting, Inc.
keith at jcc.com                     600 Newark Road
Phone: 740-587-0157               P.O. Box 381
Fax: 740-587-0163                 Granville, Ohio 43023
http://www.jcc.com                USA
______________________________________________________________
 
 



From dlw+arin at tellme.com  Tue Nov 13 10:33:47 2007
From: dlw+arin at tellme.com (David Williamson)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 07:33:47 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Are we going to vote on this ?
In-Reply-To: <7f884d483a7d7befd2d33aec6d3393de4739225e@jcc.com>
References: <7f884d483a7d7befd2d33aec6d3393de4739225e@jcc.com>
Message-ID: <20071113153347.GD26590@shell01.cell.sv2.tellme.com>

On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 11:05:00PM -0500, Keith W. Hare wrote:
>  
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net 
> > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of G.Hiscott
> > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 9:11 PM
> > To: Dean Anderson
> > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
> > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Are we going to vote on this ?
> > 
> > So the question is:
> > 
> >     Are we going to be able to vote on the removal of the 
> > board members as a result of the revelations discussed here ?
> 
> Highly unlikely.
> 
> In addition to the fact that the procedural steps John Curran noted have
> not yet been taken, I have the following issues with the "relevations"
> discussed here:

I entirely agree.  I would like to see far less "discussion" of the
more or less unverifiable "facts", and more relevant discussion about
the technical problems facing the ARIN community.

For those of you who believe there's something amiss, please bring
forward the relevant petition.  If you can do that, there's community
support for your position.  If you cannot, there isn't.  That's a
pretty simple way to see if you are going to make any headway.

-David



From tedm at ipinc.net  Tue Nov 13 14:00:21 2007
From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:00:21 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Are we going to vote on this ?
In-Reply-To: <473907A9.2020300@keyconnect.com>
Message-ID: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOAEIPHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>



>-----Original Message-----
>From: G.Hiscott [mailto:ghiscott at keyconnect.com]
>Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 6:11 PM
>To: Dean Anderson
>Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt; arin-discuss at arin.net
>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Are we going to vote on this ?
>
>
>So the question is:
>
>    Are we going to be able to vote on the removal of the board members 
>as a result of the revelations discussed here ?
>

Absolutely.  During the next regularly schedule election of board
members you may express your support for Dean by voting against any
of them, should they decide to run again.

If it's good enough for the US Government, it's certainly good enough
for here I should think.

Ted


From dean at av8.com  Tue Nov 13 16:15:52 2007
From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 16:15:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Are we going to vote on this ?
In-Reply-To: <7f884d483a7d7befd2d33aec6d3393de47392289@jcc.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711131532390.20517-100000@citation2.av8.net>

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007, Keith W. Hare wrote:

> > So the question is:
> > 
> >     Are we going to be able to vote on the removal of the 
> > board members as a result of the revelations discussed here ?
> 
> Highly unlikely.

I think its quite likely. Of about 2900 members, only about 290 are
needed for the petition. When we get the full total amounts wasted, I
think a majority will vote for honest, effective governance, and I think
the people responsible will be removed.

As I understand the process, there is no hurry to have the petition
filed:  Nothing can happen until the membership can vote in the next
Member Meeting which is in April. Certainly, we do not want to have a
membership vote before the facts fully come out. We have until April to
get the full story of facts. Time is on our side, I think.  And I think
the mere presence of investigation will tend to deter additional
examples of waste and corruption in the meantime.

> In addition to the fact that the procedural steps John Curran noted
> have not yet been taken, I have the following issues with the
> "relevations" discussed here:
> 
> 1.  I have no way of verifying the truth of most of the allegations
> and the stuff I might be able to verify would take more time than I
> have to spend on this.

Everything I've cited is publicly verifiable. For facts I've asserted on
ARIN/NANOG, you can go the NANOG web site, look at pages on previous
meetings, and get the attendee lists. It didn't take me more than a
couple hours to download and put into a database. For the $50,000 check
to Nanog, you can look at the 2007 ARIN budget
http://www.arin.net/about_us/corp_docs/budget.html For facts on VON, we
have yet to receive accurate numbers, however Board Members have
confirmed going to VON and have asserted this is "eductational
outreach". There is no dispute over the facts found so far.  The facts
have essentially been stipulated by the both sides.  The dispute is
whether these activities qualify as "educational outreach".

But if you merely can't take the short time necessary to verify facts,
you have no right to assert they are unverifable, since you truthfully
have no idea of whether they are verifiable.  Your claim of
"unverifiable" is just an attack on the objective facts, but you don't
have any facts to support your attack; your attack is baseless. My
claims are well-founded in objective facts.

> 2.  Much of this sounds like a rehash of a decade-old feud over
> something.

No, it is a related series of questionable activities spanning more than
a decade.  I only just noticed it about 10 years ago, and I've only been
keeping tabs for 10 years.  There is quite a lot of recent activity. And
the activity has picked up, not declined.

> 3.  The allegations I've heard so far do not materially affect the
> things ARIN needs to do over the next five years.

Issues of corruption, waste, cronyism do indeed materially affect the
things that ARIN needs to do over the next 5 years.  ARIN's credibility
as a fair and unbiased actor is most critical during this period.

> 4.  There are much bigger issues facing ARIN, such as PA versus PI
> space, and doing enough education and outreach so that users
> understand the IPv4/IPv6 issues to create a market so vendors and LIRs
> actually support IPv6 by the time it is needed.

These are indeed big issues. However, they can't be addressed by
parochially motivated (nice term for "helping cronies") persons with
serious conflicts of interests.  This has to be addressed.

		--Dean

-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
617 344 9000   





From tedm at ipinc.net  Tue Nov 13 16:39:00 2007
From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:39:00 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Are we going to vote on this ?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711131532390.20517-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOEEJAHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>



>-----Original Message-----
>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Dean Anderson
>Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 1:16 PM
>To: Keith W. Hare
>Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net
>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Are we going to vote on this ?
>


>The dispute is
>whether these activities qualify as "educational outreach".
>

correct.

>My
>claims are well-founded in objective facts.
>

No they are not.  Your claims are based on an INTERPRETATION of 
objective facts.  ie:  It is an objective fact ARIN was at VON.
It is a subjective interpretation that VON doesen't meeet the
criteria of educational outreach.

You don't believe it does, and I may not even believe it does.
But, if the managers at ARIN can make a reasonable argument that
shows that VON attendance did meet the criteria of educational
outreach, and did in fact produce tangible results towards that
goal, then it makes no difference what we believe, and in
fact we are foolish to continue believing otherwise in the face
of a logical and reasonable argument and tangible results.

This is why I reject the idea that marketing activities are these
ethereal things that just fly around and cannot be measured.  This
is naieve, companies have spent billions of dollars over the
years figuring out how to measure the effects of marketing campaigns.
ARIN's attendance at VON is no different than any other companies
sales and marketing efforts, it can be measured as to it's educational
effectiveness and it SHOULD be measured, as should any other
educational outreach efforts that ARIN makes.

If a particular educational outreach effort - such as attendance at
VON - is measured and found to have no results, then ARIN should
cease doing it and devote the money to other educational efforts
that HAVE results.

I really don't understand why this concept is so difficult for
non-profit organizations to understand, but I see this in church
mission outreach programs all of the time.  I guess some people
just get so caught up in the idea of spending other peoples money
on doing good deeds, that they lose sight of the fact that if
the good deeds don't really make any long term difference then
they are taking money and resources away from good deeds that WOULD
make a difference.

Kind of like the graffiti removal programs that waste a thousand
bucks painting over graffitti on condemmed buildings scheduled for
demolition.

Ted


From dlw+arin at tellme.com  Tue Nov 13 17:10:49 2007
From: dlw+arin at tellme.com (David Williamson)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:10:49 -0800
Subject: [arin-discuss] Are we going to vote on this ?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711131532390.20517-100000@citation2.av8.net>
References: <7f884d483a7d7befd2d33aec6d3393de47392289@jcc.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0711131532390.20517-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <20071113221048.GF26590@shell01.cell.sv2.tellme.com>

On Tue, Nov 13, 2007 at 04:15:52PM -0500, Dean Anderson wrote:
> As I understand the process, there is no hurry to have the petition
> filed:  Nothing can happen until the membership can vote in the next
> Member Meeting which is in April. Certainly, we do not want to have a
> membership vote before the facts fully come out. We have until April to
> get the full story of facts. Time is on our side, I think.  And I think
> the mere presence of investigation will tend to deter additional
> examples of waste and corruption in the meantime.

Dean:

I would suggest that if your strategy is to drag this out until April
in excruciating detail, you're likely to alienate many people.  That
may reduce your ability to get the 290 members required for a
successful petition.  I think we very clearly understand your
position.  Aggressive and ad hominum defense of that position is not a
good way to win friends.

I'll also echo Ted's analysis: I'm not sure that "objective" means what
you think it does.

-David


From dean at av8.com  Tue Nov 13 18:21:11 2007
From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:21:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Are we going to vote on this ?
In-Reply-To: <NABBJOELMNGNJNGPKDDOEEJAHEAA.tedm@ipinc.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711131716230.20517-100000@citation2.av8.net>

I'd like to take the tedium offline, both with the Board, and with the
membership.  There are good reasons to get the _FULL_ facts, and it will
take some time to get all the facts.  I do not set the schedule for
member meetings, so _I_ am not dragging anything out. There is a lot
known already, but I don't think its the whole story, yet; I think there
is more to discover.

There is no reason to discuss issue this every day when there are no new
facts. As I said, I'll periodically post a list of questions, and
whether the Board has responded adequately.  Probably the opponents will
want to "discuss" this to death, and will try other tactics to avoid a
real investigation and a real vote on the issues. Lets anticipate and
resist that.

But I'd like to say something about what it means to have objective
versus subjective facts.

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

> Your claims are based on an INTERPRETATION of objective facts.  ie:  
> It is an objective fact ARIN was at VON. It is a subjective
> interpretation that VON doesen't meeet the criteria of educational
> outreach.

That is correct; That's what it means to have "claims well-founded in
objective facts".  But you are right that the claims themselves are
subjective interpretation of the objective facts.  Law is an objective
fact, too. The arguments I've made are well-founded on objective facts.

> You don't believe it does, and I may not even believe it does. But, if
> the managers at ARIN can make a reasonable argument

Their argument is a subjective interpretation, too. The good news is
that civilization has developed fair, objective ways to determine if
their decisions were reasonable, whether they had a conflict of
interest, and whether they benefited. But the question is really whose
subjective interpretation is actually most reasonable and most in line
with the objective facts. And which will be found so by the members, the
lawyers, and the judge and jury.

I've dealt with a few people on the net who think that they can make
arbitrary, capricious decisions and that there is no way that the
reasonableness of their decisions can be questioned; They think no one
can determine their intentions without reading their mind.  Their views
aren't true: One doesn't need to read someone's mind to determine their
intent and their unreasonable decisions can be proven unreasonable and
improper.  These aren't new problems unique to the internet; the Romans
dealt with the same kinds of things.  That's why such people constantly
and nearly instantly lose as soon as the reasonable, responsible people
get involved.

> argument that shows that VON attendance did meet the criteria of
> educational outreach, and did in fact produce tangible results towards
> that goal, then it makes no difference what we believe, and in fact we
> are foolish to continue believing otherwise in the face of a logical
> and reasonable argument and tangible results.

They have not yet done this. They have merely made blanket assertions
unsupported by further evidence.  No tangible results towards any goal
have been demonstrated to date. Tangible evidence would be an objective
fact that could support their interpretation; they don't have this so
far, so their interpretation isn't based on objective facts.

But even showing some tangible result, there remains the issue of
whether that result was obtainable by more-economically sending an
invited speaker, or whether the additional expenses were necessary to
obtain the same result. When the expense isn't necessary, the money is
wasted and that's a good reason to fire managers, and to remove
directors who fail to fire the managers.

		--Dean


-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
617 344 9000   






From jcurran at istaff.org  Tue Nov 13 18:28:02 2007
From: jcurran at istaff.org (John Curran)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:28:02 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Are we going to vote on this ?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711131532390.20517-100000@citation2.av8.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711131532390.20517-100000@citation2.av8.net>
Message-ID: <p06240801c35fc5f2721b@[192.168.3.76]>

At 4:15 PM -0500 11/13/07, Dean Anderson wrote:
>As I understand the process, there is no hurry to have the petition
>filed:  Nothing can happen until the membership can vote in the next
>Member Meeting which is in April.

Just for clarity - A special meeting (and vote for removal) may be held
prior to next April, if a petition for removal is filed with ARIN's President.
I'm not trying to advocate for or against such a course of action, just
trying to insure that there is not a misunderstanding on this point.

>Everything I've cited is publicly verifiable. For facts I've asserted on
>ARIN/NANOG, you can go the NANOG web site, look at pages on previous
>meetings, and get the attendee lists. It didn't take me more than a
>couple hours to download and put into a database. For the $50,000 check
>to Nanog, you can look at the 2007 ARIN budget
>http://www.arin.net/about_us/corp_docs/budget.html For facts on VON, we
>have yet to receive accurate numbers, however Board Members have
>confirmed going to VON and have asserted this is "eductational
>outreach". There is no dispute over the facts found so far.  The facts
>have essentially been stipulated by the both sides.

While the above citations are indeed verifiable, you've made numerous
statements which not publicly verifiable facts.  These are likely what
the prior gentleman was referring to by use of the term "allegations".

> The dispute is whether these activities qualify as "educational outreach".

That is ultimately a matter for the ARIN members to decide...

At every member meeting, we've presented a financial update
and we use that as a opportunity to gain feedback from the
community regarding direction on fees and services.  At the April
2001 meeting, we had a specific presentation that noted our
current reserve plan had been realized, and that we could add
additional initiatives and/or reduce fees.   (For those who are
curious, a copy of the presentation may be found here:
http://www.arin.net/meetings/minutes/ARIN_VII/PDF/day3_fee.pdf)
I'll note that the 3rd slide specifically mentions several options
for services and initiatives, *including* increasing outreach &
education services and/or providing support to NANOG to do the
session recording for remote participation.  There was ample
discussion, with the consensus being that ARIN should pursue
these initiatives before reducing fees.

Dean - ARIN is membership organization, and as such, needs to be
very open and responsive to any concerns from the members
regarding its finances and governance.  As a result of the discussion
on this list over the last month, the staff will be gathering additional
data on travel and outreach and we will provide that once available.

If the ARIN membership wishes to change the direction we take on
these matters, that would be a very good topic to raise for further
discussion during the open members meeting in April.  As it is, we
have been proceeding based on the member direction to date.

/John
Chairman, ARIN Board of Trustees














From dean at av8.com  Tue Nov 13 19:22:33 2007
From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:22:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Are we going to vote on this ?
In-Reply-To: <p06240801c35fc5f2721b@[192.168.3.76]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711131915480.20517-100000@citation2.av8.net>

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, John Curran wrote:

> While the above citations are indeed verifiable, you've made numerous
> statements which not publicly verifiable facts.  These are likely what
> the prior gentleman was referring to by use of the term "allegations".

Perhaps you can inform me (off list) of what allegations you think are
unverifiable, and I will help you to verify them.

> > The dispute is whether these activities qualify as "educational
> > outreach".
> 
> That is ultimately a matter for the ARIN members to decide...

Actually, _ultimately_, its a matter for the courts to decide.  The
Board gets the first chance. The Members get the second chance, and the
courts go last.  As it was just noted, rehashing this to death will
turnoff the members from participation; leaving it to the courts.

> At every member meeting, we've presented a financial update and we use
> that as a opportunity to gain feedback from the community regarding
> direction on fees and services.  At the April 2001 meeting, we had a
> specific presentation that noted our current reserve plan had been
> realized, and that we could add additional initiatives and/or reduce
> fees.  (For those who are curious, a copy of the presentation may be
> found here:
> http://www.arin.net/meetings/minutes/ARIN_VII/PDF/day3_fee.pdf) I'll
> note that the 3rd slide specifically mentions several options for
> services and initiatives, *including* increasing outreach & education
> services and/or providing support to NANOG to do the session recording
> for remote participation.  There was ample discussion, with the
> consensus being that ARIN should pursue these initiatives before
> reducing fees.
> 
> Dean - ARIN is membership organization, and as such, needs to be
> very open and responsive to any concerns from the members
> regarding its finances and governance.  As a result of the discussion
> on this list over the last month, the staff will be gathering additional
> data on travel and outreach and we will provide that once available.

Thanks. I and many others look forward to seeing that information.

		--Dean


-- 
Av8 Internet   Prepared to pay a premium for better service?
www.av8.net         faster, more reliable, better service
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From info at arin.net  Mon Nov 19 11:56:28 2007
From: info at arin.net (Member Services)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:56:28 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Mailing List Acceptable Use Policies (AUPs)
Message-ID: <4741C03C.8050507@arin.net>

As a reminder to the community, ARIN enforces the Acceptable Use 
Policies (AUPs) to safeguard and facilitate open, constructive dialogue 
on its mailing lists.  There are two Mailing List AUPs found in Section 
9 of the Number Resource Policy Manual.

This AUP is available on the ARIN website at: 
http://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#nine1

Regards,

Member Services
American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN)