From richardj at arin.net Tue Aug 1 09:22:33 2000 From: richardj at arin.net (Richard Jimmerson) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:22:33 -0400 Subject: Address block problem In-Reply-To: <200007311831.LAA00950@roo.greatbasin.net> Message-ID: <000101bffbbb$8dfc94e0$bdfc95c0@ARINNET> Hello Bruce, > It was my understanding that 216.82.160.0/19 was reserved > for our future expansion past the end of 216.82.128.0/19. > I find that this block has been assigned to someone else. > Why was this allowed to happen without any notification? ARIN does not guarantee the reservation of IP address space. There are times ARIN does hold a reservation for an organization who has been approved for IP address space, but that is an internal practice and is not guaranteed to the requesting organization. If ARIN finds a reservation has been held for more than one year, and in this case almost two, the reservation is removed for assignment elsewhere. Regards, Richard Jimmerson American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-arin-discuss at arin.net >[mailto:owner-arin-discuss at arin.net]On >Behalf Of Bruce Robertson >Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 2:31 PM >To: hostmaster at arin.net >Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net >Subject: Address block problem > > >It was my understanding that 216.82.160.0/19 was reserved for >our future >expansion past the end of 216.82.128.0/19. I find that this block has >been assigned to someone else. Why was this allowed to happen without >any notification? > >Once again I find that I am penalized for being frugal with IP >addresses. All >of the ARIN policies are such that people who waste IP addresses are >rewarded for that behavior, and people who manage to slow their address >consumption to almost zero are penalized. On top of that, >this action just >added to fragmentation, since when I need another /19, it will >now no longer >be contiguous with an existing block. > >-- >Bruce Robertson, President/CEO >+1-775-348-7299 >Great Basin Internet Services, Inc. fax: >+1-775-348-9412 >For PGP key: finger bruce at greatbasin.net > From hostmaster at verant.com Tue Aug 1 13:49:27 2000 From: hostmaster at verant.com (Hostmaster, Verant) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 10:49:27 -0700 Subject: Address block problem Message-ID: <51EC05AE2DD6D111A0CF00805F6F410B01CFC035@mail-la.station.sony.com> Joe, Problem with this setup - here's a hypothetical, ISP E is the one that is filtering anything longer than a /20. I'll announce the /21's and a /20 to my connections to ISPA, B, C, and D. ISPE. A, B, C, and D and their peers that to not filter will make routing decisions based upon most specific, and my network will be visible to ISP E. +--------------+ +--------------+ ISP A--| network | | network |--ISP C--ISP E | one |-------| two | ISP B--| 10.10.128/21 | DS3 | 10.10.136/21 |--ISP D +--------------+ +--------------+ That is all good while the connection between my distributed networks is up, but when that DS3 goes down, and I'm still announcing packets for the entire /20, I run a serious risk of blackholing network one from folks connected to ISP E, since it will still think that network two provides connectivity to network one. Here are the filtering policies that I could find, I look forwards to any additional ones that are known: http://www.mibh.net/mibh-peering.html http://info.us.bb.verio.net/routing.html#PeerFilter ---- Dani Roisman Verant Interactive hostmaster at verant.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Gilbert [SMTP:joe at zyan.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 00 10:14 AM > To: Hostmaster, Verant; 'arin-discuss at arin.net' > Subject: RE: Address block problem > > Dani, > > There is another possible solution other than "wasting IP Address > space." Assuming that some larger ISPs filter BGP announcements smaller > than a /20 or /19 (which used to be ARIN's minimum allocation), there is a > > way to announce a smaller block for a geographically disparate network > without compromising routing. By the way, if anyone knows the ISPs that > specifically filter smaller announcements, it would be very handy to have > a > list of these ISPs and their policies. Is there possibly a web site > maintained with this information? > > In any case, here is a solution that I propose that I have worked with and > > is definitely workable in the real world Internet enviroment. What I have > > seen ISPs do to solve this problem is to announce the smaller block, i.e. > /22, that is being used at the geographically disparate network via BGP to > > the upstream providers in that location. Some ISPs will filter that > announcement but most will see it and route traffic within that CIDR block > > directly to your network. To get around the filtering, you should > announce > the /20 at a central location, hopefully where you are using the rest of > the aggregate. That way, even if an ISP is filtering your smaller > announcement, they will see your larger announcement and route the packets > > to the AS that they are receiving that announcement from. Hopefully, that > > AS is not filtering the smaller announcement and will route the traffic to > > the more specific announcement. However, even if some of the traffic does > > get all the way back to your central location without hitting an AS that > is > not filtering, I am sure you could handle that amount of traffic on your > internal links. In actual practice, you probably will not see any traffic > > hitting the AS where the aggregate route is being announced from if you > are > advertising a more specific route elsewhere. All in all, this is a > solution that leads to desirable results and does not greatly > overcomplicate your network. > > > -- > Joe Gilbert, Development Engineer > Zyan Communications > http://www.zyan.com mailto:joe at zyan.com > Toll Free 800-DSL SPEED 800-375-7733 Fax 213-488-6101 > Internet Access DSL T1 T3 VPN Hosting Ecommerce > > > > At 09:07 AM 8/1/00, Hostmaster, Verant wrote: > >Jason, I'd agree with you for most cases, but in our case, we have a /18, > >and have a few networks that are distributed geographically, and are > >multihomed. In some cases, there is an imbalance between our > connectivity > >to the Internet, and our connectivity within an AS. E.g. one network > might > >have 2 oc12's to 2 different ISPs, but only have a ds3 back to the rest > of > >our network for internal traffic. I only have a /22 worth of address > space > >on that network, but I have to waste and announce an entire /20, because > >that's all that Verio, mibh, and a few others, will accept from my > >64.37.128.0/18 block. > > > >Now, had I gotten into the game a year ago, my block's first octet would > >have been in the 200's, and I would be free to use /24's (which I > wouldn't, > >the smallest I will announce is a /22). > > > >So possbile solutions are: > >1) get in the game early (too late) > >2) waste tons of address space (I hate to do this, but it works) > >3) make enough noise, and tell my customers to change isp's when they > can't > >reach my network, and hope that these few ISP's realize that the rest of > the > >Internet is accepting /24's from all blocks, and their routers haven't > >suffered, so they better jump on the bandwagon. > > > >We're going with option 3 for now, and see where that takes us. > > > >Dani D. Roisman > >Verant Interactive > >hostmaster at verant.com > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Redisch, Jason [SMTP:JRedisch at virtela.com] > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 8:32 AM > > > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > > > Subject: RE: Address block problem > > > > > > Dani, > > > Many ISP's have IP Space from legacy Class A space. A check of > the > > > whois database would show that anyone still filtering on /8 on that > space > > > is > > > missing a large portion of the Internet. A simple call to their POC > > > should > > > fix any connectivity issues. > > > > > > However, several ISP's choose to filter all address space based > on > > > the ARIN min allocation size for that block. They feel that they can > > > reach > > > the entire Internet that way while keeping routing tables on their > > > networks > > > to a minimum size. This decision to filter or not is made by each ISP > > > individually. In doing so, these ISP's sometimes sacrifice more > optimal > > > paths, but in can still reach the entire Internet. Announcing /24's > for > > > multihomed customers should work for the portion of the Internet that > > > wants > > > to listen to them, and the larger aggregate blocks of the upstream can > be > > > used to direct traffic for those ISP's that do filter at the higher > bit > > > boundaries. > > > > > > > /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ > > > /\ > > > /\/\/\/\/\/\/\ > > > Jason Redisch (V) 720.493.5533 ext 4120 > > > Virtela Communications (F) 720.493.5006 > > > Sr. IP Engineer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Hostmaster, Verant [mailto:hostmaster at verant.com] > > > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 4:35 PM > > > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > > > Cc: Hostmaster, Verant > > > Subject: RE: Address block problem > > > > > > > > > Yeah, /24's are fine as long as you're not a recent recipient of > address > > > space, like us. We have a block from the 64.0.0.0/8 space, but we > can't > > > advertise /24's out of that block because some stick-in-the-mud ISPs > out > > > there still consider them from the "class A" address space, and filter > > > them > > > out. > > > > > > ---- > > > Dani Roisman > > > Verant Interactive > > > hostmaster at verant.com > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Bruce Robertson [SMTP:bruce at greatbasin.net] > > > > Sent: Monday, July 31, 00 3:20 PM > > > > To: Andy Dills > > > > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > > > > Subject: Re: Address block problem > > > > > > > > > Why do you force multihomed customers to get their own address > space? > > > > You > > > > > need to be using 8 /24's to get PI space. None of my multihomed > > > > customers > > > > > come anywhere near qualifying. > > > > > > > > Hmmm... mine do. A couple have single /24s from the swamp that I'm > > > > advertising under protest, but the rest have large blocks. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Bruce Robertson, President/CEO > > > > +1-775-348-7299 > > > > Great Basin Internet Services, Inc. fax: > +1-775-348-9412 > > > > For PGP key: finger bruce at greatbasin.net > > > > From JRedisch at virtela.com Tue Aug 1 11:31:57 2000 From: JRedisch at virtela.com (Redisch, Jason) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:31:57 -0600 Subject: Address block problem Message-ID: Dani, Many ISP's have IP Space from legacy Class A space. A check of the whois database would show that anyone still filtering on /8 on that space is missing a large portion of the Internet. A simple call to their POC should fix any connectivity issues. However, several ISP's choose to filter all address space based on the ARIN min allocation size for that block. They feel that they can reach the entire Internet that way while keeping routing tables on their networks to a minimum size. This decision to filter or not is made by each ISP individually. In doing so, these ISP's sometimes sacrifice more optimal paths, but in can still reach the entire Internet. Announcing /24's for multihomed customers should work for the portion of the Internet that wants to listen to them, and the larger aggregate blocks of the upstream can be used to direct traffic for those ISP's that do filter at the higher bit boundaries. /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ /\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Jason Redisch (V) 720.493.5533 ext 4120 Virtela Communications (F) 720.493.5006 Sr. IP Engineer -----Original Message----- From: Hostmaster, Verant [mailto:hostmaster at verant.com] Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 4:35 PM To: arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: Hostmaster, Verant Subject: RE: Address block problem Yeah, /24's are fine as long as you're not a recent recipient of address space, like us. We have a block from the 64.0.0.0/8 space, but we can't advertise /24's out of that block because some stick-in-the-mud ISPs out there still consider them from the "class A" address space, and filter them out. ---- Dani Roisman Verant Interactive hostmaster at verant.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Robertson [SMTP:bruce at greatbasin.net] > Sent: Monday, July 31, 00 3:20 PM > To: Andy Dills > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: Address block problem > > > Why do you force multihomed customers to get their own address space? > You > > need to be using 8 /24's to get PI space. None of my multihomed > customers > > come anywhere near qualifying. > > Hmmm... mine do. A couple have single /24s from the swamp that I'm > advertising under protest, but the rest have large blocks. > > -- > Bruce Robertson, President/CEO > +1-775-348-7299 > Great Basin Internet Services, Inc. fax: +1-775-348-9412 > For PGP key: finger bruce at greatbasin.net > From hostmaster at verant.com Tue Aug 1 12:07:04 2000 From: hostmaster at verant.com (Hostmaster, Verant) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:07:04 -0700 Subject: Address block problem Message-ID: <51EC05AE2DD6D111A0CF00805F6F410B01CFC031@mail-la.station.sony.com> Jason, I'd agree with you for most cases, but in our case, we have a /18, and have a few networks that are distributed geographically, and are multihomed. In some cases, there is an imbalance between our connectivity to the Internet, and our connectivity within an AS. E.g. one network might have 2 oc12's to 2 different ISPs, but only have a ds3 back to the rest of our network for internal traffic. I only have a /22 worth of address space on that network, but I have to waste and announce an entire /20, because that's all that Verio, mibh, and a few others, will accept from my 64.37.128.0/18 block. Now, had I gotten into the game a year ago, my block's first octet would have been in the 200's, and I would be free to use /24's (which I wouldn't, the smallest I will announce is a /22). So possbile solutions are: 1) get in the game early (too late) 2) waste tons of address space (I hate to do this, but it works) 3) make enough noise, and tell my customers to change isp's when they can't reach my network, and hope that these few ISP's realize that the rest of the Internet is accepting /24's from all blocks, and their routers haven't suffered, so they better jump on the bandwagon. We're going with option 3 for now, and see where that takes us. Dani D. Roisman Verant Interactive hostmaster at verant.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Redisch, Jason [SMTP:JRedisch at virtela.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 8:32 AM > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: RE: Address block problem > > Dani, > Many ISP's have IP Space from legacy Class A space. A check of the > whois database would show that anyone still filtering on /8 on that space > is > missing a large portion of the Internet. A simple call to their POC > should > fix any connectivity issues. > > However, several ISP's choose to filter all address space based on > the ARIN min allocation size for that block. They feel that they can > reach > the entire Internet that way while keeping routing tables on their > networks > to a minimum size. This decision to filter or not is made by each ISP > individually. In doing so, these ISP's sometimes sacrifice more optimal > paths, but in can still reach the entire Internet. Announcing /24's for > multihomed customers should work for the portion of the Internet that > wants > to listen to them, and the larger aggregate blocks of the upstream can be > used to direct traffic for those ISP's that do filter at the higher bit > boundaries. > > /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ > /\ > /\/\/\/\/\/\/\ > Jason Redisch (V) 720.493.5533 ext 4120 > Virtela Communications (F) 720.493.5006 > Sr. IP Engineer > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hostmaster, Verant [mailto:hostmaster at verant.com] > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 4:35 PM > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > Cc: Hostmaster, Verant > Subject: RE: Address block problem > > > Yeah, /24's are fine as long as you're not a recent recipient of address > space, like us. We have a block from the 64.0.0.0/8 space, but we can't > advertise /24's out of that block because some stick-in-the-mud ISPs out > there still consider them from the "class A" address space, and filter > them > out. > > ---- > Dani Roisman > Verant Interactive > hostmaster at verant.com > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bruce Robertson [SMTP:bruce at greatbasin.net] > > Sent: Monday, July 31, 00 3:20 PM > > To: Andy Dills > > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > > Subject: Re: Address block problem > > > > > Why do you force multihomed customers to get their own address space? > > You > > > need to be using 8 /24's to get PI space. None of my multihomed > > customers > > > come anywhere near qualifying. > > > > Hmmm... mine do. A couple have single /24s from the swamp that I'm > > advertising under protest, but the rest have large blocks. > > > > -- > > Bruce Robertson, President/CEO > > +1-775-348-7299 > > Great Basin Internet Services, Inc. fax: +1-775-348-9412 > > For PGP key: finger bruce at greatbasin.net > > From JRedisch at virtela.com Mon Aug 7 10:45:00 2000 From: JRedisch at virtela.com (Redisch, Jason) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 08:45:00 -0600 Subject: Interesting Concept Message-ID: Hello All, http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2612074,00.html?chkpt=zdhpnews 01 In the article at the URL above there is an upcoming IP address issue that needs to be taken care soon. The summary of the article is that they want to protect children by reserving blocks of IP Space to be allocated to kid friendly sites. This seems to be in the idea stage and 'they' are still considering a DNS implementation. Please tell me that we have someone in ARIN or the ASO working on a recommendation not to implement this idea, or at least following it better with closer ties to the decision makers. I apologize if this is a topic already being discussed on another ARIN mailing list. /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ /\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Jason Redisch (V) 720.493.5533 ext 4120 Virtela Communications (F) 720.493.5006 Sr. IP Engineer