<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body>
    Hi there,<br>
    <br>
    To be honest, I see the approach RIPE has on AS numbers a little bit
    more sane than ARIN's.<br>
    Not talking about huge organizations, with a great turnover, for
    which a setup fee of $500 is not a big deal, but the regular user.
    Startups, small businesses, individuals or even educational
    networks. Those can't really afford to pay a $500 fee for ARIN AS
    Number.<br>
    The vast majority of them go to RIPE, complete a dummy justification
    with a VM rented in EU zone and get an AS number for as low as
    $20-$30 one-time.<br>
    <br>
    Why wouldn't ARIN do something to encourage small businesses also to
    register an AS number in the correct RIR. As I saw many US ISPs do
    not include RIPE as IRR and vice-versa.. EU ISPs don't include ARIN
    as an IRR source when validating prefixes for ASN/AS-SET.<br>
    Is there so much work to do, while issuing an AS number to an
    ORG/End-User to justify $500 setup fee? Why can't it be somehow
    included in the RSP plan?<br>
    If, for example, on X-Small plan you pay $1,000 per year for holding
    a maximum of /20 IPv4 and /32 IPv6, why don't you add a 3rd resource
    for ASN? Each RSP plan to include a max. number of ASNs without any
    fee and if exceeded, to choose either to upgrade to the next slab or
    to start paying for setup fee if the amount of included ASNs is
    exceeded?<br>
    <br>
    We're not a member for so long, only ~2 years. But I've seen only
    price increase or new fees for tasks (OrgCreate for example) which
    are kinda ridiculous, in my opinion at least.<br>
    <br>
    Regards,<br>
    Andrei.<br>
    <br>
    On 2023-07-11 8:27 AM, Ross Tajvar wrote:<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+FDdDR7eg_vAP=MOZ28f50b8_AhbWh05+2uyEtmC98nN_Xaag@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="auto">
        <div>Hi all,
          <div dir="auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir="auto">While I do think there's merit to Steve's
            point that ASN-only customers have chosen not to become
            members, I have to say, I would care about this a lot more
            (at all, really) if the fees were higher. For a business
            doing anything real, $250/yr is negligible. Even $500 or
            $1000 is not a big deal...keeping an LLC open costs a few
            hundred dollars a year. Buying transit (in order to use the
            ASN) costs a couple hundred dollars a MONTH.</div>
          <div dir="auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir="auto">I understand that there is administrative
            overhead associated with maintaining a registry of internet
            numbers, keeping whois services highly available, handling
            support requests, etc. ARIN must recover these costs by
            charging fees to its customers. I couldn't say what the
            average cost per ASN is (maybe John has some estimate
            there?), but $250/yr for up to 3 ASNs does not seem wildly
            unreasonable to me.</div>
          <div dir="auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir="auto">I also think there is value in the added
            simplicity achieved by adopting a unified fee structure.</div>
          <div dir="auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir="auto">For these reasons, I take no issue with this
            proposed change.</div>
          <div dir="auto"><br>
          </div>
          Best regards,</div>
        <div dir="auto">Ross<br>
          <br>
          <div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
            <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 10, 2023,
              11:48 PM Steve Noble <<a href="mailto:snoble@sonn.com"
                target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true"
                class="moz-txt-link-freetext">snoble@sonn.com</a>>
              wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div
                style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><br>
                <div><br>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div>On Jul 10, 2023, at 3:02 PM, John Curran <<a
                        href="mailto:jcurran@arin.net" rel="noreferrer
                        noreferrer" target="_blank"
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jcurran@arin.net</a>>
                      wrote:</div>
                    <br>
                    <div>
                      <div style="line-break:after-white-space">
                        <div>
                          <blockquote type="cite">
                            <div>On Jul 10, 2023, at 2:28 PM, Steve
                              Noble <<a href="mailto:snoble@sonn.com"
                                rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                                class="moz-txt-link-freetext">snoble@sonn.com</a>>
                              wrote:</div>
                            <div>
                              <div
                                style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                                <div dir="auto"
                                  style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                                  <div dir="auto">
                                    <div>...</div>
                                    <div dir="auto">I have a lot of
                                      questions:</div>
                                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div dir="auto">1. The above
                                      paragraph states that there are
                                      approximately 6800 organizations
                                      holding a single ASN and more
                                      specifically 313 with multiple
                                      ASNs, what is the actual number of
                                      organizations with a single ASN
                                      and no other resources? </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </blockquote>
                          <div>
                            <div
                              style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                              <div dir="auto"
                                style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                                <div dir="auto">
                                  <div dir="auto"><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div dir="auto">Steve – </div>
                                  <div dir="auto"><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div dir="auto">The ~6800 are ASN-Only
                                    holders (no IPv4 or IPv6 resources)
                                    with a single ASN.    The 313 are
                                    ASN-Only holders (no IPv4 or IPv6
                                    resources) who have multiple ASNs. </div>
                                  <div dir="auto">
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>John -</div>
                  <div>You did not answer the question, the 6800 is
                    approximate, ARIN must know the actual number.</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div>
                      <div style="line-break:after-white-space">
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div
                              style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                              <div dir="auto"
                                style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                                <div dir="auto">
                                  <div dir="auto">
                                    <div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <blockquote type="cite">
                            <div>
                              <div
                                style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                                <div dir="auto"
                                  style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                                  <div dir="auto">
                                    <div dir="auto">2. How many single
                                      ASN holding organizations are
                                      members of this mailing list?</div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </blockquote>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          Unknown.  The arin-consult mailing list is
                          open to all interested parties who comply the
                          Mailing List AUP and ARIN Participants
                          Expected Standards of Behavior – these are not
                          correlated to ASN holders.
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  This is concerning since 6800+ organizations would be
                  affected and may not know so since they have not been
                  members and would not be part of the members mailing
                  list, etc.</div>
                <div><br>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div style="line-break:after-white-space">
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <div
                            style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                            <div dir="auto"
                              style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                              <div dir="auto">
                                <div dir="auto"><br>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <blockquote style="margin:0 0 0
                        40px;border:none;padding:0px">
                        <div>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                      <div>
                        <blockquote type="cite">
                          <div>
                            <div
                              style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                              <div dir="auto"
                                style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                                <div dir="auto">
                                  <div dir="auto">4. The customer impact
                                    is significantly unbalanced where
                                    over 95% of the organizations fees
                                    increase vs the 2021 changes (<a
href="https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/ARIN49/materials/426_feemembership.pdf"
                                      rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
                                      target="_blank"
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/ARIN49/materials/426_feemembership.pdf</a> slide
                                    7) where ~50% stayed the same. Why
                                    is this not clearly stated in the
                                    document?</div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        That’s not quite correct - ASN Only Holders
                        represent 30% of total customers [where total
                        customers are Service + General + ASN Only.]</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>(If one adds uncontracted legacy customers to
                        that total, ASN-Only holders represent only ~18%
                        of total customers.)</div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  John, I am talking about the affected parties, the
                  ~7113 ASN-Only holders, 95% of them will be affected
                  negatively.  What percentage they are of the total
                  number of customers is moot as the document I point to
                  clearly states :</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>"● Transitioned all customers with IPv4 or IPv6
                  number resources to the same
                  RSP (Registration Services Plan) Fee Schedule:”</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>This does not cover ASN only holders.  If ASN only
                  holders were included in the not affected list and
                  chart that would be incorrect as they were not
                  included in the list of customers this was positioned
                  as being.</div>
                <div><br>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div>
                      <div style="line-break:after-white-space">
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div
                              style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                              <div dir="auto"
                                style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                                <div dir="auto">
                                  <div dir="auto"><br>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <blockquote type="cite">
                            <div>
                              <div
                                style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                                <div dir="auto"
                                  style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                                  <div dir="auto">
                                    <div dir="auto">5. Of the impacted
                                      organizations, how many pay for
                                      membership separately?</div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </blockquote>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>None, as paid membership was removed as
                            part of the 2022 fee schedule change. This
                            change (ASN Fee Harmonization proposal) in
                            fact provides Service Member status to all
                            ASN holders. </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  So accordingly, zero ASN only organizations applied to
                  be members, I don’t see how forcing them to pay more
                  for something that they never applied for is a valid
                  benefit.</div>
                <div><br>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div>
                      <div style="line-break:after-white-space">
                        <div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <blockquote type="cite">6. Of the impacted
                            organizations, how many have requested IPv4
                            resources? </blockquote>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          Indeterminate, as it is often possible to
                          request resources without supplying ASN
                          holding information and thus correlated.  <br>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  ARIN should know how many ASN only members requested
                  IP addresses at least on an org level.  If the ASN
                  belongs to a different organization, that would not
                  apply here as we are talking about organizations that
                  only hold ASNs.</div>
                <div><br>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div>
                      <div style="line-break:after-white-space">
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div
                              style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                              <div dir="auto"
                                style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                                <div dir="auto">
                                  <div dir="auto"><br>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <blockquote type="cite">
                            <div>
                              <div
                                style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                                <div dir="auto"
                                  style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                                  <div dir="auto">
                                    <div dir="auto">7. What is the
                                      overlap of single ASN holding
                                      organizations paying for
                                      membership and requesting IP space
                                      (two items claimed in the benefit
                                      section).</div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </blockquote>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          No one is paying for ARIN Membership since the
                          2022 fee schedule change </div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>(All organizations holding IP number
                          resources under agreement have had service
                          member status since Jan 2022, and can request
                          General Member status if they wish to
                          participate in voting & ARIN governance
                          discussions). </div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>ASN-Only holders will now have Service
                          Member status as part of the ASN Fee
                          Harmonization proposal AND will be able to
                          request corresponding IPv4 and IPv6 space if
                          they choose with no change in fee category. <br>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  But according to above you have provided information
                  that zero ASN only organizations that have done this
                  so far, so ARIN is forcing ~6800 organizations to pay
                  more for a benefit that they have not requested.</div>
                <div><br>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div>
                      <div style="line-break:after-white-space">
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div
                              style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                              <div dir="auto"
                                style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                                <div dir="auto">
                                  <div dir="auto"><br>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <blockquote type="cite">
                            <div>
                              <div
                                style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                                <div dir="auto"
                                  style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                                  <div dir="auto">
                                    <div dir="auto">8. For due
                                      diligence, based on the data ARIN
                                      has compiled, how many of those
                                      single ASN organizations would
                                      qualify for IPv4 resources and be
                                      approved and have them allocated
                                      within the billing period that
                                      this change would happen? Does
                                      ARIN have 6800 /24 IPv4 blocks
                                      available to allocate to the
                                      affected parties?</div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </blockquote>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          They would all qualify for IPv4 or IPv6 if
                          they are running a network and using their ASN
                          to run BGP.   It probably goes without saying
                          that there is more than enough IPv6 resources
                          for all ASN-only customers...</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>For IPv4 resources, many would end up on
                          the IPv4 waiting list today, but note that for
                          those who wish to run IPv6, there is enough
                          4.10 transition IPv4 space (~14.5k /24s are
                          available under 4.10 as of June 2023) to
                          theoretically issue 4.10 IPv4 transition
                          blocks to all of the ASN-Only holders.</div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  I think that is a false equivalence comparing
                  transition space to available space. For example I
                  applied for my ASN 23 years ago, IPv4 space was much
                  easier to get.  Had you charged the same fee whether I
                  had space or not, I would have applied for space. </div>
                <div><br>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div>
                      <div style="line-break:after-white-space">
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div
                              style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                              <div dir="auto"
                                style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                                <div dir="auto">
                                  <div dir="auto"><br>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <blockquote type="cite">
                            <div>
                              <div
                                style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                                <div dir="auto"
                                  style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
                                  <div dir="auto">
                                    <div dir="auto">In summary, based on
                                      the information provided so far, I
                                      believe that raising prices for
                                      6800+ organizations to slightly
                                      lower the cost burden of 313 is
                                      unfair and unreasonable. There has
                                      been no data provided to show what
                                      the cost of serving a single ASN
                                      organization is other than your
                                      aggregate groups showing that it
                                      is <=$15.</div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </blockquote>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <div>This change provides for recovering
                              costs more equitably for services to
                              across the ARIN customer base, with the
                              added benefit of making ASN-only customers
                              ARIN Service Members, thus providing them
                              with the opportunity to become General
                              Members and participate in ARIN governance
                              if they so choose.</div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>John - How much does it cost to provide service
                    to an ASN only holder?  What actual, tangible
                    benefit do they get with this change?  The affected
                    organizations could have asked to be members or for
                    IP space the entire time.  There is no upside to
                    this that has been documented and it’s certainly all
                    negative from my position.</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div style="line-break:after-white-space">
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>In addition to bringing all ARIN
                            customers into a unified, equitable fee
                            schedule, the ASN Fee harmonization will
                            facilitate ASN-only resource holders
                            obtaining IPv4 and/or IPv6 resources if they
                            choose to do so. </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>And to this point they should be able to choose,
                    If an ASN only organizations wants resources or to
                    be a member, they can pay more.  If they want to
                    stay how they are they can stay how they are. 
                    Forcing ASN only organizations to foot the bill for
                    those who have or want more is not equitable.</div>
                </div>
              </div>
              _______________________________________________<br>
              ARIN-Consult<br>
              You are receiving this message because you are subscribed
              to the ARIN Consult Mailing<br>
              List (<a href="mailto:ARIN-consult@arin.net"
                rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
                moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">ARIN-consult@arin.net</a>).<br>
              Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:<br>
              <a
                href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult"
                rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
                moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult</a>
              Please contact the ARIN Member Services<br>
              Help Desk at <a href="mailto:info@arin.net"
                rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
                moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">info@arin.net</a>
              if you experience any issues.<br>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
ARIN-Consult
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Consult Mailing
List (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ARIN-consult@arin.net">ARIN-consult@arin.net</a>).
Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult">https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult</a> Please contact the ARIN Member Services
Help Desk at <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:info@arin.net">info@arin.net</a> if you experience any issues.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>