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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Hi John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>In that case I would like to suggest indexing the transfer fee to the size of the block transferred.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Perhaps the algorithm for this indexing could be adjusted to yield 1.33 times current transfer fee revenue.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>In this way we don’t have to make transfer fees payable upfront and non-refundable.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>It will be harder for us brokers to get sellers to fork over a non-refundable transfer fee, since the transfer failure could easily be the fault of the buyer, and what seller wants to risk $500 in that case? Buyer may or may not be able to justify, should the seller be financing the buyer’s justification test?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>When we brokers get the buyer to pay all transfer fees, he might cavil over the fact that the failure cause could be the seller. Maybe the seller is just using the buyer to finance his quest to get ARIN to recognize his rights?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Yes, buyers can get pre-authorized, and sellers can get pre-authorized for $100, so there are workarounds. But in general I am against this change to non-refundable fees, and would prefer any shortfall to come from higher fees on larger blocks.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I also think that overall it is more fair to charge more for larger block transfers, even when the staff time is similar.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> John Curran [mailto:jcurran@arin.net] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 06, 2016 5:08 PM<br><b>To:</b> Mike Burns <mike@iptrading.com><br><b>Cc:</b> ARIN <info@arin.net>; <arin-consult@arin.net> <arin-consult@arin.net><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [ARIN-consult] Consultation on Transfer Fees Now Open<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>On Sep 6, 2016, at 4:36 PM, Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com">mike@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Currently the recipient pays except for 8.4 transfers.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>ARIN requests the transfer fee from SELLER before the transfer is sent to the recipient registry in those cases.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>For inbound 8.4 transfers, the ARIN recipient pays the ARIN fee.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Mike - <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>This is correct, and the proposed transfer fee change would be make the fee process for<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>transfers within the region be consistent with transfers going out of region (i.e. the source<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>paying the transfer fee.)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>For a /24 sold from ARIN to APNIC or vice versa, the transfer fees total $500 from ARIN and $161 from APNIC, or $661. In this case transfer fees represent a whopping $2.60 per address, or almost a quarter of the cost of the addresses themselves. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>True, although the work required is substantially the same regardless of block size...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Considering that the number of small transfers is greater than large transfers, and in light of current ARIN reserve$, I suggest reducing the transfer fee for small blocks, or indexing the fee to the transfer size in a way that maintains overall current transfer revenue numbers. John says 1 in 4 transfers fail. I guess a substantial number are largish blocks that fail as a result of nefarious activity involved in claiming old blocks and selling them. The incentives for this behavior are less for small block sales. Can we get a breakdown of failure rates by transfer size?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>We may not be able to automatically generate such, but even so, we should be able to <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>manually assemble such data for review. I shall look into this and report back shortly. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Ripe charges no transfer fee. APNIC charges a fee tied to the transfer size. LACNIC charges $200 upfront, and $1300 before the transfer completes. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>While I do recognize the potential interest in fees charged in other regions, I must ask <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>that folks focus as much as possible on what fees they feel are appropriate for ARIN to <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>charge. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>As part of the consideration about making the $500 upfront and non-refundable, are we able to discuss the transfer fee generally?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Certainly! (If were to say otherwise, one could simply submit a suggestion to the ARIN <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Consultation and Suggestion Process <<a href="https://www.arin.net/participate/acsp/acsp.html">https://www.arin.net/participate/acsp/acsp.html</a>>,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>which would result in another discussion thread on this mailing list; i.e. let us save time <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>and presume that the transfer fees in general are a fine topic for discussion here.) <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks!<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>/John<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>John Curran<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>President and CEO<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>ARIN<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>