[ARIN-consult] Consultation on Implementing Single Transferrable Voting for ARIN Elections

Fri Jan 21 19:46:54 EST 2022

> On Jan 10, 2022, at 14:14 , Azinger, Marla <Marla.Azinger at FTR.com> wrote:
> 
> If you are in fact a contractor doing actual work and not just a troll that has befriended someone at an ISP promising faith to vote in their best interest, then you are working for that company. Contracted personnel are employees.

The IRS and many other government agencies draw stark distinctions between Contractors and Employees.

For example:

	Employees get a W-2 in January.
	Contractors (may) get a 1099 (now of a couple of different possible types) in February.

There are other distinctions. There are good reasons for these distinctions.

I’m all for eliminating abuse, but “is not employed by” is not a valid definition.

I would accept “Has no business affiliation with” or “Is not an authorized agent of” or other similar language (Michael can probably
provide a best recommendation here, as ARIN’s general counsel).

Owen

>  
> That said. One person voting on behalf of several different companies is not diversity in any leap of the imagination.
>  
> Again. No matter what is done here, there will always be gaming. Just looking at changing how this works is gaming.
>  
> I’m kinda sorry I wasted my time reading this thread and responding at all.
>  
> Marla Azinger | SPVR, IP Management
> O 585-413-9128 | marla.azinger at ftr.com <mailto:marla.azinger at ftr.com>
> <image010.png><image011.png> <image012.png> <image013.png> www.frontier.com <http://www.frontier.com/>
>  
>  
> From: Adam Thompson <athompson at merlin.mb.ca <mailto:athompson at merlin.mb.ca>> 
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 2:01 PM
> To: Azinger, Marla <Marla.Azinger at FTR.com <mailto:Marla.Azinger at FTR.com>>; andrew.dul at quark.net <mailto:andrew.dul at quark.net>; arin-consult at arin.net <mailto:arin-consult at arin.net>
> Subject: RE: [ARIN-consult] Consultation on Implementing Single Transferrable Voting for ARIN Elections
>  
> Nope.  I have been hired three times in the past to cast an ARIN vote for someone else because they didn’t want to take the time to figure it out.
> I would say that organization experience defines the difference in perspective here: contracting out core functions is 100% normal up here, especially for smaller orgs.  So “if they don’t work for the company” is not a valid test for – by my best estimation – at least tens of thousands of companies that will shortly be eligible to vote.  If you’ve never worked in that sort of environment, it may seem strange.  I can think of several local companies that are ARIN orgs, off the top of my head, that have ZERO employees – only contractors.
> -Adam
>  
> Adam Thompson
> Consultant, Infrastructure Services
> <image014.png>
> 100 - 135 Innovation Drive
> Winnipeg, MB, R3T 6A8
> (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only)
> athompson at merlin.mb.ca <mailto:athompson at merlin.mb.ca>
> www.merlin.mb.ca <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.merlin.mb.ca/__;!!M2UytebrhrTR!aC-U4Mi8fjtx00j6-gibiFNIcded-dQ49QX64nAG-g3z6sSEUt91v_fpZWDYVyyF$>
>  
> From: Azinger, Marla <Marla.Azinger at FTR.com <mailto:Marla.Azinger at FTR.com>> 
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 3:58 PM
> To: Adam Thompson <athompson at merlin.mb.ca <mailto:athompson at merlin.mb.ca>>; andrew.dul at quark.net <mailto:andrew.dul at quark.net>; arin-consult at arin.net <mailto:arin-consult at arin.net>
> Subject: RE: [ARIN-consult] Consultation on Implementing Single Transferrable Voting for ARIN Elections
>  
> To identify the abusers you would simply have to look at the list of voters and what ORG ID’s they have control over. If they don’t work for the company they shouldn’t be controlling its votes.
>  
> I don’t agree that proxy should exist. And yes it is another form of voter abuse. Clearly, we will not agree on this.
>  
> Marla Azinger | SPVR, IP Management
> O 585-413-9128 | marla.azinger at ftr.com <mailto:marla.azinger at ftr.com>
> <image015.png><image016.png><image017.png> <image018.png> www.frontier.com <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.frontier.com__;!!M2UytebrhrTR!aC-U4Mi8fjtx00j6-gibiFNIcded-dQ49QX64nAG-g3z6sSEUt91v_fpZTaEb77n$>
>  
>  
> From: Adam Thompson <athompson at merlin.mb.ca <mailto:athompson at merlin.mb.ca>> 
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 1:54 PM
> To: Azinger, Marla <Marla.Azinger at FTR.com <mailto:Marla.Azinger at FTR.com>>; andrew.dul at quark.net <mailto:andrew.dul at quark.net>; arin-consult at arin.net <mailto:arin-consult at arin.net>
> Subject: RE: [ARIN-consult] Consultation on Implementing Single Transferrable Voting for ARIN Elections
>  
> There are two big reasons: apathy and limited staff time.  Most small ISPs simply don’t care about ARIN governance, 99.999% of the time, and don’t have time to learn enough to discover how/what/when/where they should care.  ARIN is just a force of nature they have to content with when they need more resources…
>  
> In general, I don’t agree with you, at least not entirely: if a contractor is voting in the best interests of a client, with the client’s full knowledge, and is doing so for more than one client simultaneously, that’s still 100% legit.  Expecting company owners to maintain a PoC and vote is not realistic, at least based on all the company owners I know (with perhaps a lone exception).  And there is validation, of sorts: if someone votes against the interests of their client, a) they’re cutting their own throat, albeit indirectly, and b) if it’s discovered, they likely get fired or equivalent.
>  
> So If someone has voting rights for an org that they have no legal/contractual relationship with, then that’s an odd situation.  Either it’s “legacy”, i.e. left over from when it was legit, which is very hard to fix in general, or it’s a situation that probably should never have happened in the first place.  I’d be happy to see ways to solve those problems… assuming there’s any evidence whatsoever that it’s actually a problem in the first place.
>  
> -Adam
>  
> Adam Thompson
> Consultant, Infrastructure Services
> <image014.png>
> 100 - 135 Innovation Drive
> Winnipeg, MB, R3T 6A8
> (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only)
> athompson at merlin.mb.ca <mailto:athompson at merlin.mb.ca>
> www.merlin.mb.ca <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.merlin.mb.ca/__;!!M2UytebrhrTR!eqdKUWFgrdNnlUOh2EI-oFETtgpJtz7T7PmhXF9h3YIx1XAMo5-wLaC2LnrmVsNx$>
>  
> From: Azinger, Marla <Marla.Azinger at FTR.com <mailto:Marla.Azinger at FTR.com>> 
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 3:01 PM
> To: Adam Thompson <athompson at merlin.mb.ca <mailto:athompson at merlin.mb.ca>>; andrew.dul at quark.net <mailto:andrew.dul at quark.net>; arin-consult at arin.net <mailto:arin-consult at arin.net>
> Subject: RE: [ARIN-consult] Consultation on Implementing Single Transferrable Voting for ARIN Elections
>  
> If ARIN is looking for people that actually want to be involved to cast the voting and really care, the votes would best be cast by anything other than a proxy.
>  
> I find proxy voters don’t always care what the desire of the company is and there is no validation being done they casted votes how the owner of the vote would actually want.
>  
> I’m not a fan of proxy this day in age.  Proxy to me is a throw back to before online voting occurred. There’s no reason a company cant vote on their own.
>  
>  
> Marla Azinger | SPVR, IP Management
> O 585-413-9128 | marla.azinger at ftr.com <mailto:marla.azinger at ftr.com>
> <image019.png><image020.png><image021.png> <image022.png> www.frontier.com <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.frontier.com__;!!M2UytebrhrTR!eqdKUWFgrdNnlUOh2EI-oFETtgpJtz7T7PmhXF9h3YIx1XAMo5-wLaC2LofU2RgS$>
>  
>  
> From: Adam Thompson <athompson at merlin.mb.ca <mailto:athompson at merlin.mb.ca>> 
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 12:02 PM
> To: Azinger, Marla <Marla.Azinger at FTR.com <mailto:Marla.Azinger at FTR.com>>; andrew.dul at quark.net <mailto:andrew.dul at quark.net>; arin-consult at arin.net <mailto:arin-consult at arin.net>
> Subject: RE: [ARIN-consult] Consultation on Implementing Single Transferrable Voting for ARIN Elections
>  
> Not sure that’s low-hanging fruit, tbh.  Besides MERLIN, I still have voting rights for … 3? local ISPs, who are all aware of that and OK with that.  In any other arena, that’s just holding a proxy vote, which is not a big deal.
> What sort of problems have you seen in this area (that I obviously haven’t)?
> -Adam
>  
> Adam Thompson
> Consultant, Infrastructure Services
> <image014.png>
> 100 - 135 Innovation Drive
> Winnipeg, MB, R3T 6A8
> (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only)
> athompson at merlin.mb.ca <mailto:athompson at merlin.mb.ca>
> www.merlin.mb.ca <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.merlin.mb.ca/__;!!M2UytebrhrTR!c2ZEjGLTpLzzB0NcqRhddq0ebLp4mUbzhD5ajlW6BmGWGO6t7IJUsP104NmK_RnB$>
>  
> From: ARIN-consult <arin-consult-bounces at arin.net <mailto:arin-consult-bounces at arin.net>> On Behalf Of Azinger, Marla
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 1:53 PM
> To: andrew.dul at quark.net <mailto:andrew.dul at quark.net>; arin-consult at arin.net <mailto:arin-consult at arin.net>
> Subject: Re: [ARIN-consult] Consultation on Implementing Single Transferrable Voting for ARIN Elections
>  
> All of this is gaming no matter how you slice it. 
>  
> Silly me. I looked at the title and thought efforts were under way to stop one person from casting votes for companies they don’t actually work for but I didn’t read that in the write up.  I would have thought we’d start there… if anything needs modification…
>  
> Marla Azinger | SPVR, IP Management
> O 585-413-9128 | marla.azinger at ftr.com <mailto:marla.azinger at ftr.com>
> <image015.png><image016.png><image017.png> <image018.png> www.frontier.com <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.frontier.com__;!!M2UytebrhrTR!c2ZEjGLTpLzzB0NcqRhddq0ebLp4mUbzhD5ajlW6BmGWGO6t7IJUsP104CKB559o$>
>  
>  
> From: ARIN-consult <arin-consult-bounces at arin.net <mailto:arin-consult-bounces at arin.net>> On Behalf Of Andrew Dul
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 11:40 AM
> To: arin-consult at arin.net <mailto:arin-consult at arin.net>
> Subject: Re: [ARIN-consult] Consultation on Implementing Single Transferrable Voting for ARIN Elections
>  
> WARNING: External email. Please verify sender before opening attachments or clicking on links.
>  
> 
> Perhaps a simple question, but "how" will the current board insure that future board(s) do not capriciously change the election mechanisms in the future? 
>  
> Making the changes to the "election process" subject to a majority vote of the membership and having that right inserted into the bylaws might be one method...
>  
> Thanks,
> Andrew
>  
> On 1/7/2022 10:31 AM, Peter Harrison wrote:
> Adam,
>  
> As stated before, it is the Board's fiduciary responsibility to ensure that a change of this magnitude is equitable and not vulnerable to capricious change. We will act appropriately based on this feedback.
>  
> Peter
>  
>  
> On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 10:03 AM Adam Thompson <athompson at merlin.mb.ca <mailto:athompson at merlin.mb.ca>> wrote:
> Peter, I don’t have a problem with STV.  I do have a problem with the board having the latitude – unfettered – to keep changing voting systems without further bylaw amendments.  The type of voting structure, particularly when deviating from the norm that’s baked into Virginia law, should then be baked into the bylaws so that it can’t change in the middle of the night, perhaps even during an election.
>  
> Do I trust the current board to not pull stuff like that?  Yeah, probably, I think...  (In fact, can I even name the current board members?  No.  But that’s a different problem.)  Am I willing to blindly trust every future board that might exist?  Absolutely not.  I’ve seen how boards can be co-opted, infiltrated, and/or “turned to the dark side” (so to speak) elsewhere.
>  
> As far as the consultation’s goal to determine whether STV is OK or not?  Yes, it is good.  This is an excellent move overall.
>  
> -Adam
>  
> Adam Thompson
> Consultant, Infrastructure Services
> <image014.png>
> 100 - 135 Innovation Drive
> Winnipeg, MB, R3T 6A8
> (204) 977-6824 or 1-800-430-6404 (MB only)
> athompson at merlin.mb.ca <mailto:athompson at merlin.mb.ca>
> www.merlin.mb.ca <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.merlin.mb.ca/__;!!M2UytebrhrTR!ZZ9nY7Iqm8q8pZkxsQXDwXKKBYnBxxrhgUQsk72I0lQSknZQozPO16VzGTEuxAE9$>
>  
> From: ARIN-consult <arin-consult-bounces at arin.net <mailto:arin-consult-bounces at arin.net>> On Behalf Of Peter Harrison
> Sent: Friday, January 7, 2022 11:53 AM
> To: arin-consult at arin.net <mailto:arin-consult at arin.net>
> Subject: Re: [ARIN-consult] Consultation on Implementing Single Transferrable Voting for ARIN Elections
>  
> Dear Community,
>  
> With STV there are many ways to re-allocate votes, and new ones may be invented. The videos presented previously illustrated one method. 
>  
> This link explains some of the options: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting#Comparison_of_ranked_voting_methods <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting*Comparison_of_ranked_voting_methods__;Iw!!M2UytebrhrTR!ZZ9nY7Iqm8q8pZkxsQXDwXKKBYnBxxrhgUQsk72I0lQSknZQozPO16VzGa2rUE66$>
>  
> We will need to balance the range of options with those provided by current and future vendors of ARIN’s voting systems. Investigations are being made by staff and they will make recommendations to the board based on their research into our needs, best practices, practicability, relative merit, legal implications and systems availability. 
>  
> The purpose of the consultation is to get a sense of whether this is a good idea overall. The board will work hard to ensure that we are working in the best interest of the members and the region they serve when evaluating the choices presented.
>  
> As John explained, the bylaw modification was made to accommodate multiple forms of voting that may be required in future. The concern that this could lead to opportunistic changes to systems each election cycle is sound. We will investigate ways to ensure this does not happen with possible bylaw wording to meet these and other goals.
>  
> The Governance Working Group has worked very closely with both the executive team and staff on this consultation. Their support for a workable solution and concern for the membership has been evident every step of the way. These consultations are the result of over two years of research and were not taken lightly. We will continue to work to maintain this excellent collaboration.
>  
> Thank you for your feedback.
>  
> Peter
>  
> 
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