From info at arin.net  Thu Apr  4 15:02:46 2013
From: info at arin.net (ARIN)
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 15:02:46 -0400
Subject: [ARIN-consult] Community Consultation on Change to Whois Output for
	Certain /8 Records
Message-ID: <515DCE56.3020205@arin.net>

ARIN would like to solicit community input on a recent suggestion,
2013.4: Change Whois Output for Certain /8 records. The request asked
that ARIN suppress the RIR /8 output in a Whois query when a more
specific Direct Allocation (DA) or Direct Assignment (DS) record exists,
and instead, display the DA or DS record only.

Command-line Whois clients rely on ARIN's Whois to provide referral
server information where it exists, so that the IP address query can be
properly referred and resolved. This includes not only ISP Rwhois server
information, but also other RIRs' Whois server information.

Queries for IPv4 addresses within /8's that ARIN is fully authoritative
for are properly referred. For example, if you look up an IPv4 address
in an ARIN /8, ARIN's Whois will provide the direct registration record,
as well as referral server information. The Whois clients pick up on
this data, and refer queries as appropriate.

The issue is that queries of address records residing within /8s for
which another RIR is authoritative for (also referred to as "ERX space")
will not make the proper referral to limitations of the Rwhois
referrals. When you query for an IPv4 address in one of these ranges,
ARIN Whois currently provides two answers:

    *   the /8 record of the authoritative RIR; and
    *   the direct allocation or direct assignment record for the ARIN 
client

This behavior breaks the referral mechanism of Whois clients.

ARIN has two choices regarding the behavior described above and would
like the community?s feedback on which one is the best course of action,
seeking input on the two proposed solutions below:

    *   Change today's behavior so that if a DA or DS record exists in
ARIN's Whois, ARIN will publish only the DA or DS record. If the query
does not produce a DA or DS record, ARIN will publish the /8 record of
the authoritative RIR and the referral to that RIR's Whois server.
    *   Continue today's behavior, ensuring that all IP address queries are
responded to with the proper RIR information. But the referral server
problem described here will continue to be a problem for ARIN-issued
registrations in these ERX /8s.

Discussion on arin-consult at arin.net will close on 3 May 2013. ARIN seeks
clear direction through community input, so your feedback is important. 
If you
have any questions, please contact us at info at arin.net.

Regards,

Communications and Member Services
American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN)





From bill at herrin.us  Thu Apr  4 16:38:59 2013
From: bill at herrin.us (William Herrin)
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 16:38:59 -0400
Subject: [ARIN-consult] Community Consultation on Change to Whois Output
 for Certain /8 Records
In-Reply-To: <515DCE56.3020205@arin.net>
References: <515DCE56.3020205@arin.net>
Message-ID: <CAP-guGV3wdbfr2E+Rt28F6-FM4C+X6xVT51e4HY=k8nLZfTBEQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:02 PM, ARIN <info at arin.net> wrote:
> ARIN has two choices regarding the behavior described above and would
> like the community?s feedback on which one is the best course of action,
> seeking input on the two proposed solutions below:
>
>    *   Change today's behavior so that if a DA or DS record exists in
> ARIN's Whois, ARIN will publish only the DA or DS record. If the query
> does not produce a DA or DS record, ARIN will publish the /8 record of
> the authoritative RIR and the referral to that RIR's Whois server.
>    *   Continue today's behavior, ensuring that all IP address queries are
> responded to with the proper RIR information. But the referral server
> problem described here will continue to be a problem for ARIN-issued
> registrations in these ERX /8s.

Could the problem be solved by placing the DA and DS records within
foreign /8's on a different ARIN whois server than the main one and
then having ARIN's main whois server provide only the referral record
to the server authoritative for the /8? The idea is that the foreign
server then provides a referral back to the secondary ARIN server
which, in turn, provides the client-specific information, all without
breaking the referral chain.

Besides, what if ARIN's record is "wrong"? What if ARIN has a local
record for, say, a /24 but according to the authoritative server for
that /8, ARIN doesn't control the /24? Wouldn't it be better if the
person making the query got the "correct" record?

Regards,
Bill Herrin


-- 
William D. Herrin ................ herrin at dirtside.com  bill at herrin.us
3005 Crane Dr. ...................... Web: <http://bill.herrin.us/>
Falls Church, VA 22042-3004


From owen at delong.com  Thu Apr  4 17:24:59 2013
From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 14:24:59 -0700
Subject: [ARIN-consult] Community Consultation on Change to Whois Output
	for Certain /8 Records
In-Reply-To: <CAP-guGV3wdbfr2E+Rt28F6-FM4C+X6xVT51e4HY=k8nLZfTBEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <515DCE56.3020205@arin.net>
	<CAP-guGV3wdbfr2E+Rt28F6-FM4C+X6xVT51e4HY=k8nLZfTBEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C060CC19-B348-413B-AD5A-49CDE890C208@delong.com>

> Could the problem be solved by placing the DA and DS records within
> foreign /8's on a different ARIN whois server than the main one and
> then having ARIN's main whois server provide only the referral record
> to the server authoritative for the /8? The idea is that the foreign
> server then provides a referral back to the secondary ARIN server
> which, in turn, provides the client-specific information, all without
> breaking the referral chain.
> 
> Besides, what if ARIN's record is "wrong"? What if ARIN has a local
> record for, say, a /24 but according to the authoritative server for
> that /8, ARIN doesn't control the /24? Wouldn't it be better if the
> person making the query got the "correct" record?
> 

Perhaps I am confused? The DA/DS records I'm familiar with have
to do with DNSSEC. Is there some different DA/DS relationship in
whois, or, is this display of said DNS information in the output from
whois?

Owen



From bill at herrin.us  Thu Apr  4 17:45:56 2013
From: bill at herrin.us (William Herrin)
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 17:45:56 -0400
Subject: [ARIN-consult] Community Consultation on Change to Whois Output
 for Certain /8 Records
In-Reply-To: <C060CC19-B348-413B-AD5A-49CDE890C208@delong.com>
References: <515DCE56.3020205@arin.net>
	<CAP-guGV3wdbfr2E+Rt28F6-FM4C+X6xVT51e4HY=k8nLZfTBEQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<C060CC19-B348-413B-AD5A-49CDE890C208@delong.com>
Message-ID: <CAP-guGVov8aUAeNtxNt41vyNaAy-tv0CK6B0GVqUtVbt7L_Efw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 5:24 PM, Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:
>> Could the problem be solved by placing the DA and DS records within
>> foreign /8's on a different ARIN whois server than the main one and
>> then having ARIN's main whois server provide only the referral record
>> to the server authoritative for the /8? The idea is that the foreign
>> server then provides a referral back to the secondary ARIN server
>> which, in turn, provides the client-specific information, all without
>> breaking the referral chain.
>>
>> Besides, what if ARIN's record is "wrong"? What if ARIN has a local
>> record for, say, a /24 but according to the authoritative server for
>> that /8, ARIN doesn't control the /24? Wouldn't it be better if the
>> person making the query got the "correct" record?
>>
>
> Perhaps I am confused? The DA/DS records I'm familiar with have
> to do with DNSSEC. Is there some different DA/DS relationship in
> whois, or, is this display of said DNS information in the output from
> whois?

Hi Owen,

>From the problem statement: "Direct Allocation (DA) or Direct
Assignment (DS) record"

-Bill


-- 
William D. Herrin ................ herrin at dirtside.com  bill at herrin.us
3005 Crane Dr. ...................... Web: <http://bill.herrin.us/>
Falls Church, VA 22042-3004


From andrew.dul at quark.net  Sat Apr  6 14:27:18 2013
From: andrew.dul at quark.net (Andrew Dul)
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 11:27:18 -0700
Subject: [ARIN-consult] Community Consultation on Change to Whois Output
 for Certain /8 Records
In-Reply-To: <515DCE56.3020205@arin.net>
References: <515DCE56.3020205@arin.net>
Message-ID: <51606906.8020200@quark.net>

Could ARIN staff or someone produce a set of sample queries showing the
current state and the proposed new state.   That might help the discussion.

To clarify this change would only effect traditional whois not the new
restful queries? Correct?

Thanks,
Andrew

On 4/4/2013 12:02 PM, ARIN wrote:
> ARIN would like to solicit community input on a recent suggestion,
> 2013.4: Change Whois Output for Certain /8 records. The request asked
> that ARIN suppress the RIR /8 output in a Whois query when a more
> specific Direct Allocation (DA) or Direct Assignment (DS) record exists,
> and instead, display the DA or DS record only.
>
> Command-line Whois clients rely on ARIN's Whois to provide referral
> server information where it exists, so that the IP address query can be
> properly referred and resolved. This includes not only ISP Rwhois server
> information, but also other RIRs' Whois server information.
>
> Queries for IPv4 addresses within /8's that ARIN is fully authoritative
> for are properly referred. For example, if you look up an IPv4 address
> in an ARIN /8, ARIN's Whois will provide the direct registration record,
> as well as referral server information. The Whois clients pick up on
> this data, and refer queries as appropriate.
>
> The issue is that queries of address records residing within /8s for
> which another RIR is authoritative for (also referred to as "ERX space")
> will not make the proper referral to limitations of the Rwhois
> referrals. When you query for an IPv4 address in one of these ranges,
> ARIN Whois currently provides two answers:
>
>    *   the /8 record of the authoritative RIR; and
>    *   the direct allocation or direct assignment record for the ARIN
> client
>
> This behavior breaks the referral mechanism of Whois clients.
>
> ARIN has two choices regarding the behavior described above and would
> like the community?s feedback on which one is the best course of action,
> seeking input on the two proposed solutions below:
>
>    *   Change today's behavior so that if a DA or DS record exists in
> ARIN's Whois, ARIN will publish only the DA or DS record. If the query
> does not produce a DA or DS record, ARIN will publish the /8 record of
> the authoritative RIR and the referral to that RIR's Whois server.
>    *   Continue today's behavior, ensuring that all IP address queries
> are
> responded to with the proper RIR information. But the referral server
> problem described here will continue to be a problem for ARIN-issued
> registrations in these ERX /8s.
>
> Discussion on arin-consult at arin.net will close on 3 May 2013. ARIN seeks
> clear direction through community input, so your feedback is
> important. If you
> have any questions, please contact us at info at arin.net.
>
> Regards,
>
> Communications and Member Services
> American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-Consult
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
> Consult Mailing
> List (ARIN-consult at arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult Please contact the
> ARIN Member Services
> Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.



From info at arin.net  Mon Apr  8 13:17:39 2013
From: info at arin.net (ARIN)
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 13:17:39 -0400
Subject: [ARIN-consult] ACSP Consultation: Open Suggestion Review and
 Project Prioritization Survey
Message-ID: <5162FBB3.1060709@arin.net>

During the next two weeks in preparation for ARIN 31, we are asking you
to review the active suggestions received since the last ARIN meeting in
Dallas, TX.  We are asking you to review the two active suggestions
listed below and:

1.    Comment on the merits of each - (eg. Worth doing, not worth the
effort, must have, etc.)
2.    For those you think have merit, rank them in your desired order of
potential implementation.

We have provided a high-level staff assessment of perceived level of
implementation effort for each suggestion. Be sure to read the more
detailed notes at the url for each suggestion listed:

*   2013.5 Provide WHOIS-RWS results in JSONP For Ease of 3rd-Part
Application Development
https://www.arin.net/participate/acsp/suggestions/2013-5.html
Estimated staff effort to implement: $21,000 in engineering costs, plus
communications efforts.

*   2013.4 Change Whois output for certain /8 records
https://www.arin.net/participate/acsp/suggestions/2013-4.html
Estimated staff effort to implement: $26,000 in engineering costs, plus
communications efforts.

There will be a discussion period about these suggestions during the
ARIN 31 Public Policy and Members Meeting. Within 30 days after the
meeting, ARIN staff will publish the prioritized list of suggestions,
noting any closed because the community found them to lack merit.

Please provide comments to arin-consult at arin.net.

Discussion on arin-consult at arin.net will close on 30 April 2013. If you
have any questions, please contact us at info at arin.net.

In addition, ARIN maintains a list of community and internal
recommendations for new services and improvements. To gather additional
community input on future upgrades and services, ARIN will hold a
session to go over a list of both prioritized projects awaiting
implementation and projects awaiting prioritization at ARIN 31. You can
view a listing of these items at: https://www.arin.net/features/

The information gleaned from this community feedback session will be
used as feedback for ARIN management to help prioritize future work. In
addition to input gathered at the ARIN meeting, we have a survey
available at: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Project_Prioritization_ARIN_31

The survey will remain open until 30 April, and we are eager to hear
from you! We look forward to hearing your thoughts as we set future
development and service priorities.

Regards,


Communications and Member Services
American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN)







From info at arin.net  Tue Apr  9 13:17:27 2013
From: info at arin.net (ARIN)
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 13:17:27 -0400
Subject: [ARIN-consult] Clarifications to Community Consultation on Change
 to Whois Output for Certain /8 REcords
Message-ID: <51644D27.7060202@arin.net>

We received a request for a sample Whois output to produce a set of
sample queries showing the current state and the proposed new state to
facilitate discussion on the consultation. Given the query ?whois -h
whois.arin.net 150.102.0.0?, today?s output lists both the DA network
and the other RIR managing 150.0.0.0/8 (RIPE NCC).

#
# Query terms are ambiguous. The query is assumed to be:
# "n 150.102.0.0"
#
# Use "?" to get help.
#

#
# The following results may also be obtained via:
#
http://whois.arin.net/rest/nets;q=150.102.0.0?showDetails=true&showARIN=false&ext=netref2
#

Eastman Kodak Company KODAK2 (NET-150-102-0-0-1) 150.102.0.0 -
150.102.255.255
Asia Pacific Network Information Centre APNIC-ERX-150 (NET-150-0-0-0-0)
150.0.0.0 - 150.255.255.255


#
# ARIN WHOIS data and services are subject to the Terms of Use
# available at: https://www.arin.net/whois_tou.html
#

The suggested change would list the details only for 150.102.0.0/16:
#
# Query terms are ambiguous. The query is assumed to be:
# "n + 150.102.0.0"
#
# Use "?" to get help.
#

#
# The following results may also be obtained via:
#
http://whois.arin.net/rest/nets;q=150.102.0.0?showDetails=true&showARIN=false&ext=netref2
#


# start

NetRange: 150.102.0.0 - 150.102.255.255
CIDR: 150.102.0.0/16
OriginAS:
NetName: KODAK2
NetHandle: NET-150-102-0-0-1
Parent: NET-150-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Assignment
RegDate: 1991-06-04
Updated: 2003-12-01
Ref: http://whois.arin.net/rest/net/NET-150-102-0-0-1

OrgName: Eastman Kodak Company
OrgId: EASTMA
Address: IP Management Services - External Access
Address: 343 State St
City: Rochester
StateProv: NY
PostalCode: 14650-1250
Country: US
RegDate: 1987-12-01
Updated: 2011-09-24
Ref: http://whois.arin.net/rest/org/EASTMA

OrgTechHandle: ZE60-ARIN
OrgTechName: Eastman Kodak Company
OrgTechPhone: +1-585-724-4000
OrgTechEmail: ipadmin at kodak.com
OrgTechRef: http://whois.arin.net/rest/poc/ZE60-ARIN

OrgAbuseHandle: ZE60-ARIN
OrgAbuseName: Eastman Kodak Company
OrgAbusePhone: +1-585-724-4000
OrgAbuseEmail: ipadmin at kodak.com
OrgAbuseRef: http://whois.arin.net/rest/poc/ZE60-ARIN

RTechHandle: ZE60-ARIN
RTechName: Eastman Kodak Company
RTechPhone: +1-585-724-4000
RTechEmail: ipadmin at kodak.com
RTechRef: http://whois.arin.net/rest/poc/ZE60-ARIN

# end


To clarify some other questions raised in the discussion thus far, the
mechanism used by some whois clients to conduct this referral is
informal and non-standard. There is no URI or hostname pointer referring
to a server and therefore no easy way to point to a secondary ARIN Whois
server.

In addition, there is no intent to change the behavior of the ARIN?s
current RESTful Whois service. However, the RDAP standard being
specified by the WEIRDS working group of the IETF does have different
referral behavior than ARIN?s current RESTful Whois service. ARIN
envisions that it will run both its current RESTful Whois service and
the new RDAP standard side-by-side once the RDAP standard is complete.

Regards,

Andy Newton
Chief Engineer
American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN)





From jrhett at netconsonance.com  Tue Apr  9 14:13:43 2013
From: jrhett at netconsonance.com (Jo Rhett)
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 11:13:43 -0700
Subject: [ARIN-consult] Clarifications to Community Consultation on
	Change to Whois Output for Certain /8 REcords
In-Reply-To: <51644D27.7060202@arin.net>
References: <51644D27.7060202@arin.net>
Message-ID: <4144B3A3-B7A9-461A-9577-26EE45B0B47F@netconsonance.com>

I would intensely prefer this new change. I've had to rewrite our abuse tools to work around the current output and this would remove a lot of hacking, and make it consistent with other registries.

On Apr 9, 2013, at 10:17 AM, ARIN <info at arin.net> wrote:
> We received a request for a sample Whois output to produce a set of
> sample queries showing the current state and the proposed new state to
> facilitate discussion on the consultation. Given the query ?whois -h
> whois.arin.net 150.102.0.0?, today?s output lists both the DA network
> and the other RIR managing 150.0.0.0/8 (RIPE NCC).
> 
> #
> # Query terms are ambiguous. The query is assumed to be:
> # "n 150.102.0.0"
> #
> # Use "?" to get help.
> #
> 
> #
> # The following results may also be obtained via:
> #
> http://whois.arin.net/rest/nets;q=150.102.0.0?showDetails=true&showARIN=false&ext=netref2
> #
> 
> Eastman Kodak Company KODAK2 (NET-150-102-0-0-1) 150.102.0.0 -
> 150.102.255.255
> Asia Pacific Network Information Centre APNIC-ERX-150 (NET-150-0-0-0-0)
> 150.0.0.0 - 150.255.255.255
> 
> 
> #
> # ARIN WHOIS data and services are subject to the Terms of Use
> # available at: https://www.arin.net/whois_tou.html
> #
> 
> The suggested change would list the details only for 150.102.0.0/16:
> #
> # Query terms are ambiguous. The query is assumed to be:
> # "n + 150.102.0.0"
> #
> # Use "?" to get help.
> #
> 
> #
> # The following results may also be obtained via:
> #
> http://whois.arin.net/rest/nets;q=150.102.0.0?showDetails=true&showARIN=false&ext=netref2
> #
> 
> 
> # start
> 
> NetRange: 150.102.0.0 - 150.102.255.255
> CIDR: 150.102.0.0/16
> OriginAS:
> NetName: KODAK2
> NetHandle: NET-150-102-0-0-1
> Parent: NET-150-0-0-0-0
> NetType: Direct Assignment
> RegDate: 1991-06-04
> Updated: 2003-12-01
> Ref: http://whois.arin.net/rest/net/NET-150-102-0-0-1
> 
> OrgName: Eastman Kodak Company
> OrgId: EASTMA
> Address: IP Management Services - External Access
> Address: 343 State St
> City: Rochester
> StateProv: NY
> PostalCode: 14650-1250
> Country: US
> RegDate: 1987-12-01
> Updated: 2011-09-24
> Ref: http://whois.arin.net/rest/org/EASTMA
> 
> OrgTechHandle: ZE60-ARIN
> OrgTechName: Eastman Kodak Company
> OrgTechPhone: +1-585-724-4000
> OrgTechEmail: ipadmin at kodak.com
> OrgTechRef: http://whois.arin.net/rest/poc/ZE60-ARIN
> 
> OrgAbuseHandle: ZE60-ARIN
> OrgAbuseName: Eastman Kodak Company
> OrgAbusePhone: +1-585-724-4000
> OrgAbuseEmail: ipadmin at kodak.com
> OrgAbuseRef: http://whois.arin.net/rest/poc/ZE60-ARIN
> 
> RTechHandle: ZE60-ARIN
> RTechName: Eastman Kodak Company
> RTechPhone: +1-585-724-4000
> RTechEmail: ipadmin at kodak.com
> RTechRef: http://whois.arin.net/rest/poc/ZE60-ARIN
> 
> # end
> 
> 
> To clarify some other questions raised in the discussion thus far, the
> mechanism used by some whois clients to conduct this referral is
> informal and non-standard. There is no URI or hostname pointer referring
> to a server and therefore no easy way to point to a secondary ARIN Whois
> server.
> 
> In addition, there is no intent to change the behavior of the ARIN?s
> current RESTful Whois service. However, the RDAP standard being
> specified by the WEIRDS working group of the IETF does have different
> referral behavior than ARIN?s current RESTful Whois service. ARIN
> envisions that it will run both its current RESTful Whois service and
> the new RDAP standard side-by-side once the RDAP standard is complete.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Andy Newton
> Chief Engineer
> American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN)
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-Consult
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Consult Mailing
> List (ARIN-consult at arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult Please contact the ARIN Member Services
> Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.

-- 
Jo Rhett
Net Consonance : net philanthropy to improve open source and internet projects.