[ARIN-consult] [arin-announce] Fee Schedule Change Consultation

Wed Nov 14 12:48:47 EST 2012

Brian,

	I think I answered that question succinctly. No.

-- 
Jesse D. Geddis

LA Broadband LLC
AS 16602

On 11/14/12 9:48 AM, "Brian Johnson" <bjohnson at drtel.com> wrote:

I love the legacy holder "situation". We can disagree about legacy space
holders perpetually.

For this argument, do not consider legacy holders. Is the fee structure
fair otherwise?

- Brian J.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jesse D. Geddis [mailto:jesse at la-broadband.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 11:09 AM
> To: Brian Johnson; Owen DeLong
> Cc: arin-consult at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [ARIN-consult] [arin-announce] Fee Schedule Change
> Consultation
> 
> Brian,
> 
> 	The hyperbolic verbiage aside the point has been mentioned by
> many.
> Whether it's all of us subsidizing, flat out, organizations responsible
> for arguably some of the biggest waste of resources or smaller
> organizations subsidizing larger organizations it's all the same.
> 
> 	When you take a small who pays 2,250 to consume 8,000 IP's and
> compare
> that to a large who pays $18k to consume a minimum of 262k ip's up to an
> unlimited amount it seems massively disproportionate.
> 
> The large pays _at_most_ $0.14 per IP while the small pays $3.64 per IP.
> 
> The fees don't encourage efficient use of address space via a financial
> stick. For example if I have a /14 and am requesting another /16 what the
> heck do I care how efficiently it's used? Anything else I get assigned is
> completely free.
> 
> The fees put the burden on the backs of smaller organizations to carry
>the
> water for organizations responsible for the most waste.
> 
> 
> --
> Jesse D. Geddis
> 
> LA Broadband LLC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/14/12 8:46 AM, "Brian Johnson" <bjohnson at drtel.com> wrote:
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 10:30 AM
> > To: Brian Johnson
> > Cc: John Curran; arin-consult at arin.net
> > Subject: Re: [ARIN-consult] [arin-announce] Fee Schedule Change
> > Consultation
> >
> >
> > On Nov 14, 2012, at 07:52 , Brian Johnson <bjohnson at drtel.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Owen,
> > >
> > > I'm not sure what you really expect to happen here. Do we give away
> > services to everyone so that they are the same as legacy holders...
>that
> > doesn't work. Do we start charging legacy holders for their resources
> >without
> > an agreement from them... I can feel the lawyers prepping papers right
> >now.
> > >
> >
> > Several options...
> >
> > 1.	Discontinue services to legacy holders that don't start paying.
> 
> How does this help the situation? The only "services" they get is WHOIS
> details, which is more of a service to you and me than to them.
> 
> > 2.	Treat LRSA Signatories as a group that isn't subjected to the new
> > fees.
> 
> So now we have institutionalized legacy space holders in policy/process
> further. How do we unwind this later?
> 
> > 3.
> >
> > > I will note that my understanding is that legacy holders will need to
> >sign
> > some kind of (L)RSA to get v6 space. They will then need to justify
>their
> > assignment (at least the IPv6 assignment) to get space. Possibly they
> >would
> > have to "back justify" their legacy space? Maybe this is a way we can
> >limp
> > along with V4 longer?
> >
> > As an example, a legacy holder with a /23 and a /24 of legacy IPv4
>space
> >and
> > an ASN issued prior to ARIN formation pays $0.
> > If that legacy holder signs the LRSA, they start paying $100/year. If
> >they don't,
> > they continue to pay $0.
> >
> > If they get IPv6 space, then, they have to sign the RSA for their IPv6
> >space
> > and pay $100/year for that, but they are not required to sign the LRSA
> >or RSA
> > with regards to their IPv4 space. Under the current fee structure, they
> >would
> > pay $100/year whether or not they sign the LRSA for their IPv4 space.
> >
> > Under the proposed fee structure, beginning with their 2013 billing,
>the
> >one
> > that did not sign the LRSA still pays $100/year only for their IPv6
> >space and
> > continues to pay $0 for everything else. The one that chose to
> >participate in
> > the ARIN process and sign the LRSA, OTOH, receives a bill not for $0,
> >not for
> > $100, but for $400/year.
> >
> > Now, there is a small exception to this... If that LRSA signature
> >occurred early
> > enough, they may only get charged either $125 or $225, depending on how
> > one interprets the combination of RSA terms and LRSA terms with the
> > proposed fee structure in 2013, with that fee continuing to go up
> >$25/year
> > each year until it reaches the $400/year in either 7 or 11 years,
> >depending on
> > how ARIN determines the starting point.
> 
> Agree to all of the math. I'm in also in agreement that the legacy
>holders
> are now in the position of being "takers" from the system as they have
> public resources that are widely considered to be under-used. However,
>the
> fees being charged here are pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.
> Even the dramatic $400 dollars mentioned in the previous math comes down
> to less than a 20oz bottle of [pick your favorite soft drink] a day.
> 
> >
> > > I think that I would like ARIN to avoid legal issues when possible.
> >I'm not
> > sure if ARIN counsel would want to chime in on sending bills to legacy
> >space
> > holders who have not signed an agreement with ARIN. This may help me in
> > my processing of this topic.
> >
> >
> > I would like ARIN to avoid legal issues too.
> >
> > However, I also would like to avoid getting shafted in exchange for
> >trying to
> > be an upstanding member of the community.
> 
> I do not agree that anyone is getting "shafted" and I think this type of
> verbiage does little to advance the topic. Also, you cannot force people
> outside a community to act as you wish, even if they have a less than
> positive impact on the community.
> 
> - Brian J.
> 
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