From info at arin.net Fri Sep 25 15:11:46 2009 From: info at arin.net (Member Services) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 15:11:46 -0400 Subject: [ARIN-consult] =?windows-1252?q?Call_for_Community_Consultation_?= =?windows-1252?q?=96_Retiring_ARIN_E-mail_Templates?= Message-ID: <4ABD15F2.7080608@arin.net> ARIN is interested in receiving community feedback on when and if it should retire e-mail templates as duplicate functionality is made available through ARIN Online. As we build new features into the website, we would like to eliminate redundant and legacy services. We are seeking community input to determine if there is community support for this approach. Discussion on consult at arin.net will close at noon EDT 30 Oct 2009. ARIN will use the feedback provided to determine if we need to continue to provide redundant legacy services alongside ARIN Online. The ARIN Consultation and Suggestion Process documentation is available at: https://www.arin.net/participate/acsp/index.html All are welcome to participate. Please address any process questions to info at arin.net. Regards, Member Services American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) From sleibrand at internap.com Fri Sep 25 15:39:49 2009 From: sleibrand at internap.com (Scott Leibrand) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:39:49 -0500 Subject: [ARIN-consult] =?windows-1252?q?Call_for_Community_Consultation_?= =?windows-1252?q?=96_Retiring_ARIN_E-mail_Templates?= In-Reply-To: <4ABD15F2.7080608@arin.net> References: <4ABD15F2.7080608@arin.net> Message-ID: <4ABD1C85.6050703@internap.com> We primarily use the e-mail templates as an API to interface with our IP management system. It's important that such automated functionality remain available, rather than requiring transactions to go through a website designed for humans. Once all of the templates' functionality is available via an API and website interfaces, it may be reasonable to deprecate and eventually retire the e-mail templates. However, such a change needs to be communicated well in advance, to give everyone time to update their own systems to interact with the new API, and do appropriate testing, etc. -Scott Member Services wrote: > ARIN is interested in receiving community feedback on when and if it > should retire e-mail templates as duplicate functionality is made > available through ARIN Online. As we build new features into the > website, we would like to eliminate redundant and legacy services. We > are seeking community input to determine if there is community support > for this approach. > > Discussion on consult at arin.net will close at noon EDT 30 Oct 2009. ARIN > will use the feedback provided to determine if we need to continue to > provide redundant legacy services alongside ARIN Online. > > The ARIN Consultation and Suggestion Process documentation is available > at: https://www.arin.net/participate/acsp/index.html > > All are welcome to participate. Please address any process questions to > info at arin.net. > > Regards, > > Member Services > American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Consult > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Consult Mailing > List (ARIN-consult at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult Please contact the > ARIN Member Services > Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From sethm at rollernet.us Fri Sep 25 16:19:23 2009 From: sethm at rollernet.us (Seth Mattinen) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:19:23 -0700 Subject: [ARIN-consult] =?iso-8859-1?q?Call_for_Community_Consultation_--_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?Retiring_ARIN_E-mail_Templates?= In-Reply-To: <4ABD1C85.6050703@internap.com> References: <4ABD15F2.7080608@arin.net> <4ABD1C85.6050703@internap.com> Message-ID: <4ABD25CB.20102@rollernet.us> Scott Leibrand wrote: > We primarily use the e-mail templates as an API to interface with our IP > management system. It's important that such automated functionality > remain available, rather than requiring transactions to go through a > website designed for humans. > > Once all of the templates' functionality is available via an API and > website interfaces, it may be reasonable to deprecate and eventually > retire the e-mail templates. However, such a change needs to be > communicated well in advance, to give everyone time to update their own > systems to interact with the new API, and do appropriate testing, etc. > (Just subscribed, forgive me if my points were already discussed.) I agree, but I'd like to add that the audience that uses the email templates is likely one that does not need shiny-clicky buttons on a website to do their job. In fact, I find it can impede my work vs. a system such as templates by email. Even with a web API, the email templates are a far easier, cleaner way to automate what we do with ARIN. (Plus we can PGP sign submissions.) If it were up to me, I'd keep the email templates forever. -- Seth Mattinen sethm at rollernet.us Roller Network LLC From rich at nic.umass.edu Fri Sep 25 16:26:34 2009 From: rich at nic.umass.edu (Rich Emmings) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 16:26:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ARIN-consult] Call for Community Consultation -- Retiring ARIN E-mail Templates Message-ID: The web interface is glacially slow and overly awkward. It poorly renders the pages in some cases/browser configurations[1]. Some of the workflows in the web interface still require an email confirmation to complete. So email does not seem to be going away. Emails allow longer forms to be completed over multiple work sessions, saving the file until the application is completed. A local copy is created and besides sending it to ARIN, it can be sent from role accounts and cc'd to others. The email interface should be retained indefinitely. If ARIN doesn't want to maintain two systems. then dump the web interface and keep email. [1] where other sites do not have the same issues. From ralphs at accelnet.net Fri Sep 25 16:27:13 2009 From: ralphs at accelnet.net (Ralph Sims) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:27:13 -0700 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Call for Community Consultation -- Retiring ARIN E-mail Templates In-Reply-To: <4ABD25CB.20102@rollernet.us> References: <4ABD15F2.7080608@arin.net> <4ABD1C85.6050703@internap.com> <4ABD25CB.20102@rollernet.us> Message-ID: <002301ca3e1e$91805c50$b48114f0$@net> I'm don't normally like "me too", but "me too". > Even with a web API, the email templates are a far easier, cleaner way > to automate what we do with ARIN. (Plus we can PGP sign submissions.) If > it were up to me, I'd keep the email templates forever. From owen at delong.com Fri Sep 25 15:55:58 2009 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 12:55:58 -0700 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates Message-ID: <35079EC0-F286-40D4-85FA-11A2DDC90F65@delong.com> They are a quick and convenient format for resource applications which are easily automated where applicable. I do not believe that they should be retired. Owen From stephen.r.middleton at verizon.com Fri Sep 25 16:51:23 2009 From: stephen.r.middleton at verizon.com (Middleton, Stephen R) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 16:51:23 -0400 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates In-Reply-To: <35079EC0-F286-40D4-85FA-11A2DDC90F65@delong.com> Message-ID: Rather than write an epistle of my own; I will simply state my agreement with Owen DeLong, Scott Leibrand, Seth Mattinen, Rich Emmings, and Ralph Sims (and many others soon to follow). I echo that email templates should be kept forever and that if a choice between web interface and emailed templates is to be made; emailed templates must stay. Thank you, Stephen Middleton Verizon Services Operations IP Address Management IP and Data Backbone Engineering 703-390-0778 -----Original Message----- From: arin-consult-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-consult-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 3:56 PM To: consult at arin.net Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates They are a quick and convenient format for resource applications which are easily automated where applicable. I do not believe that they should be retired. Owen _______________________________________________ ARIN-Consult You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Consult Mailing List (ARIN-consult at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From markk at arin.net Fri Sep 25 17:12:42 2009 From: markk at arin.net (Mark Kosters) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 17:12:42 -0400 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates In-Reply-To: References: <35079EC0-F286-40D4-85FA-11A2DDC90F65@delong.com> Message-ID: <20090925211242.GA9084@arin.net> Hi If we can tussle this apart a bit. There are two classes of templates. The first class of templates are those that do not appear to be automated. Those are orgs, pocs, and requests for number resources. The second class of templates are swips - reassign detailed, reassign simple, reallocate, and netmod. These are heavily automated. For the first class, we like to hear from you if we can deprecate the use of templates and use the web interface. For the second class, we have had start of a discussion of better ways to handle automated and bulk submissions at the San Antonio meeting. The discussion leaned towards using a RESTful web interface. Of course, if we were to do this, there would be ample time to agree to this approach and to cut over. We are not there yet. Mark On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 04:51:23PM -0400, Middleton, Stephen R wrote: > Rather than write an epistle of my own; I will simply state my agreement > with Owen DeLong, Scott Leibrand, Seth Mattinen, Rich Emmings, and Ralph > Sims (and many others soon to follow). > > I echo that email templates should be kept forever and that if a choice > between web interface and emailed templates is to be made; emailed > templates must stay. > > Thank you, > > Stephen Middleton > Verizon Services Operations > IP Address Management > IP and Data Backbone Engineering > 703-390-0778 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-consult-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-consult-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong > Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 3:56 PM > To: consult at arin.net > Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates > > They are a quick and convenient format for resource applications which > are easily > automated where applicable. > > I do not believe that they should be retired. > > Owen From owen at delong.com Fri Sep 25 17:18:41 2009 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:18:41 -0700 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates In-Reply-To: <20090925211242.GA9084@arin.net> References: <35079EC0-F286-40D4-85FA-11A2DDC90F65@delong.com> <20090925211242.GA9084@arin.net> Message-ID: <8DD190E9-8E24-425B-887B-CF7CCBAB5A3A@delong.com> On Sep 25, 2009, at 2:12 PM, Mark Kosters wrote: > Hi > > If we can tussle this apart a bit. There are two classes of templates. > The first class of templates are those that do not appear to be > automated. > Those are orgs, pocs, and requests for number resources. > > The second class of templates are swips - reassign detailed, > reassign simple, > reallocate, and netmod. These are heavily automated. > > For the first class, we like to hear from you if we can deprecate > the use > of templates and use the web interface. > There are reasons beyond automation to preserve the email templates. Having said that, I do have some tools that do somewhat automate the production of number resource applications and POC updates which I occasionally do on behalf of my clients. Therefore, I oppose deprecation even of these templates. > > For the second class, we have had start of a discussion of better ways > to handle automated and bulk submissions at the San Antonio meeting. > The > discussion leaned towards using a RESTful web interface. Of course, > if we > were to do this, there would be ample time to agree to this approach > and to > cut over. We are not there yet. > I'm all for adding the ability to use the RESTful web interface or some other API for automation/bulk submissions, but, I do not think that it should be done to the exclusion of the email template submission. Owen From sethm at rollernet.us Fri Sep 25 17:56:13 2009 From: sethm at rollernet.us (Seth Mattinen) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:56:13 -0700 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates In-Reply-To: <20090925211242.GA9084@arin.net> References: <35079EC0-F286-40D4-85FA-11A2DDC90F65@delong.com> <20090925211242.GA9084@arin.net> Message-ID: <4ABD3C7D.50602@rollernet.us> Mark Kosters wrote: > Hi > > If we can tussle this apart a bit. There are two classes of templates. > The first class of templates are those that do not appear to be automated. > Those are orgs, pocs, and requests for number resources. > My original sentiments still stand regardless of what the template is or if it appears to be automated or not. -- Seth Mattinen sethm at rollernet.us Roller Network LLC From aaronh at bind.com Fri Sep 25 18:16:10 2009 From: aaronh at bind.com (Aaron Hughes) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 15:16:10 -0700 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Support for keeping text templates Message-ID: <20090925221610.GG23288@trace.bind.com> All, I am writing to express support for keeping text templates. Justification: Over the years I have written several assignment applications for various companies that manage SWIP data for customers. Those systems, along with many others I have seen, populate e-mail based simple re-assign text templates utilizing some database (such as SalesForce contact info) to populate them. They are then forwarded to hostmaster at arin.net with appropriate spoofed from addresses. Breaking this kind of automation would have impact to many companies, several of which may not understand they would be impacted by removing support for text based templates. Secondly, as far as I am aware, there are no SWIP API interfaces available today. Removing text based templates without providing another form of interaction with the SWIP database would completely stop automation of SWIP updates. This does not, however, address the issues of companies who do not know they are dependent on text based templates. Keeping SWIP data accurate is important to the community, ARIN members, and many government agencies. I fully believe removing support for text templates would make SWIP data more stale and less accurate than it already is. I urge the community to support keeping text based templates functioning. If, for some reason, this is a strain on ARIN resources, I would suggest a carefully planned parsing of the mail logs to assess the number of affected companies and reaching out to them to assess the impact. -- Aaron Hughes aaronh at bind.com +1-831-824-4161 Key fingerprint = AD 67 37 60 7D 73 C5 B7 33 18 3F 36 C3 1C C6 B8 http://www.bind.com/ From farmer at umn.edu Fri Sep 25 19:40:38 2009 From: farmer at umn.edu (David Farmer) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 18:40:38 -0500 Subject: [ARIN-consult] EoL for Email Templates Message-ID: <4ABD0EA6.18476.1459F246@farmer.umn.edu> To be honest, I can't really even imagine Email Templates going away. But, I do have some sympathy for Mark and ARIN's developers, do they have to support Email as a API forever and ever? So maybe we should think about about this simply as a product life cycle question. I expect my product vendors to have a replacement product out an operating for some time before they announce the End-of-Life for the previous product. Lets say 1 year for sake of discussion. Then, I normally expect the vendor to provide support for a product for 3 to 5 years following the announcement of the the End-of-Life. So, if ARIN were to fully have a new replacement for some Email Template released on 10/1/2009. Then it might be reasonable to announce EOL for that template 10/1/2010, with support for the Template to cease on 10/1/2015. If we think of Email Templates as a product that is 20 to 25 years old, which was adapted from another product, a paper form, maybe 30 or more years old. (Although Paper forms are much older than that, they just weren't use for requesting Internet Resource until about 30 year ago or so). So, maybe it is not completely unreasonable to consider a EoL process for for Email Templates. But, I wouldn't be thinking about making them go away until like 2015 or beyond. What do others think of something like that? This would at least give Mark and the developers a light at the end of the tunnel, all be it a long tunnel from their prospective. =============================================== David Farmer Email:farmer at umn.edu Office of Information Technology Networking & Telecomunication Services University of Minnesota Phone: 612-626-0815 2218 University Ave SE Cell: 612-812-9952 Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 FAX: 612-626-1818 =============================================== From michael.dillon at bt.com Sat Sep 26 10:05:01 2009 From: michael.dillon at bt.com (michael.dillon at bt.com) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 15:05:01 +0100 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates In-Reply-To: <20090925211242.GA9084@arin.net> Message-ID: <28E139F46D45AF49A31950F88C4974580345B9DA@E03MVZ2-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net> > If we can tussle this apart a bit. There are two classes of templates. Good point. > The first class of templates are those that do not appear to > be automated. > Those are orgs, pocs, and requests for number resources. Nevertheless, these should be retired and since they are not automated, the schedule for retiring them should be quicker. At the same time, it is not sufficient to only provide a human-to-computer interface for these transactions. There should also be an automated interface to support ISP systems which want to automate these transactions for audit purposes, or in order to control who does what. Therefore, for first class templates, retire the email interface and provide an alternative, probably a RESTful web interface. That way, your interactive web tool is merely your front-end to the same RESTful API that others will use, and because you also use the API, it will be properly maintained. > The second class of templates are swips - reassign detailed, > reassign simple, reallocate, and netmod. These are heavily automated. These should also be automated, but on a longer schedule with more steps, and more interactions with ISPs to avoid breaking things. First step is to make a RESTful API available. Second is to edit all the web pages either removing all references to the email API, or noting that it is deprecated with a URL to the up to date site. Third step, is to log all SMTP template submissions for two months, add all the from addresses to a whitelist, and then blacklist every other address. This has the effect of allowing frequent/heavy users a longer timescale to switch. Fourth, is to supply a web page which can be used to submit the same templates by cut-'n'paste. This is only for people who submit an email template, and find that the email service is no longer available. The reply email will include a copy of their template, redirect them to the right URL, and also tell them how to use the nice shiny new web api. Fifth, contact all of the whitelisted organizations and find out what assistance they need to switch their transaction flow from email to the web api. Etc. So, for class two templates, their should be a new RESTful API that is fast and efficient (or asynchronous), a simple web page for submitting the old email format templates, and a nice web application front end for low volume and occasional users. In addition, for class two templates, ARIN should be open to providing additional interfaces. Although SOAP is something best avoided for efficiency purpose, not using SOAP may raise all kinds of difficulties in a large corporate user. XMPP is another interface that might have to be supported. The details on this can and should be worked out later, once you have done the two month logging of from addresses. Early in this process ARIN should post the architecture of the systems replacing email templates including some easy to read diagrams. Although it is not necessary to see the intimate details of ARIN's internals, the architecture documentation should provide enough detail to be understandable. For instance "... go into an RDBMS ..." is the sufficient detail. It is not necessary to say "... go into an Oracle 10g RDBMS running on a cluster of four OpenSolaris XEN virtual servers each of which is on a separate physical server. The database itself is stored on a zpool which is exported via iSCSI from a SAN cluster which is similarly running on multiple physical servers..." > The discussion leaned towards using a > RESTful web interface. Of course, if we were to do this, > there would be ample time to agree to this approach and to > cut over. We are not there yet. I think that the public discussion should be careful not to get into too much comparison of REST vs SOAP and similar things. More important is the schema of the data items to be included in each transaction. If this is clear and unambiguous, then multiple protocols and formats can easily be used. For instance JSON over REST, XML over SOAP, XML over XMPP. Even JSON or XML over SMTP is worth considering, just don't use the hostmaster email address, and don't even use an SMTP server that is used for Internet email. The protocol/format chosen for the main transaction service should be one that is cheap to develop for, available using 100% open source tools, and is widely used so that it is likely most people will get their technical support from sources other than ARIN. Leave the more complicated stuff for dealing with the volume users who are wrestling with entrenched systems and onerous change management processes. --Michael Dillon P.S. Please consider replacing whois/rwhois at the same time that you do this. From bzs at world.std.com Sat Sep 26 14:24:35 2009 From: bzs at world.std.com (Barry Shein) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 14:24:35 -0400 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates In-Reply-To: <28E139F46D45AF49A31950F88C4974580345B9DA@E03MVZ2-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net> References: <20090925211242.GA9084@arin.net> <28E139F46D45AF49A31950F88C4974580345B9DA@E03MVZ2-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net> Message-ID: <19134.23651.745806.519058@world.std.com> This'll probably be unpopular and perhaps someone has said this I haven't read every single world but maybe institute a charge (possibly rising over time) for submitting email templates like the airlines do with online vs phone reservations (and we know we ALL want to emulate the airlines' customer service!) That way it'll either die of its own accord / market pressure or if priced correctly you'll have income specific to this activity to hire someone to torture by making them sit in the office and type received email templates into the web interface when received all day. "never argue with a fool, just take their money!" - some wag -- -Barry Shein The World | bzs at TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE-WRLD | Login: Nationwide Software Tool & Die | Public Access Internet | SINCE 1989 *oo* From sethm at rollernet.us Sun Sep 27 01:22:00 2009 From: sethm at rollernet.us (Seth Mattinen) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 22:22:00 -0700 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates In-Reply-To: <28E139F46D45AF49A31950F88C4974580345B9DA@E03MVZ2-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net> References: <28E139F46D45AF49A31950F88C4974580345B9DA@E03MVZ2-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net> Message-ID: <4ABEF678.5070708@rollernet.us> michael.dillon at bt.com wrote: > > I think that the public discussion should be careful not to > get into too much comparison of REST vs SOAP and similar > things. More important is the schema of the data items > to be included in each transaction. If this is clear and > unambiguous, then multiple protocols and formats can easily be > used. For instance JSON over REST, XML over SOAP, XML over XMPP. > Even JSON or XML over SMTP is worth considering, just don't > use the hostmaster email address, and don't even use an SMTP > server that is used for Internet email. > Holy acronyms batman! Can someone please explain to me why complicating a process that's already very simple and easy to work with is a good thing? ~Seth From owen at delong.com Sun Sep 27 11:39:30 2009 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 08:39:30 -0700 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates In-Reply-To: <19134.23651.745806.519058@world.std.com> References: <20090925211242.GA9084@arin.net> <28E139F46D45AF49A31950F88C4974580345B9DA@E03MVZ2-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net> <19134.23651.745806.519058@world.std.com> Message-ID: <718C2026-A100-4E3A-8350-F003CB799A27@delong.com> I think people are assuming that the processing of email templates is not and/or cannot be automated to the extent that web forms can. That simply isn't accurate. Email template parsing into the database is, as I understand, automated. Sure, there are more ways for email templates to come in with incorrect syntax/etc. and those create exceptions that may require manual processing, but, generally, email templates can be just as automated as processing web forms. As such, I don't see the logic behind pressuring people to the web interface. Owen On Sep 26, 2009, at 11:24 AM, Barry Shein wrote: > > This'll probably be unpopular and perhaps someone has said this I > haven't read every single world but maybe institute a charge (possibly > rising over time) for submitting email templates like the airlines do > with online vs phone reservations (and we know we ALL want to emulate > the airlines' customer service!) > > That way it'll either die of its own accord / market pressure or if > priced correctly you'll have income specific to this activity to hire > someone to torture by making them sit in the office and type received > email templates into the web interface when received all day. > > "never argue with a fool, just take their money!" - some wag > > -- > -Barry Shein > > The World | bzs at TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com > Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE-WRLD | Login: > Nationwide > Software Tool & Die | Public Access Internet | SINCE 1989 > *oo* > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Consult > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the > ARIN Consult Mailing > List (ARIN-consult at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult Please contact > the ARIN Member Services > Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From michael.dillon at bt.com Sun Sep 27 13:55:32 2009 From: michael.dillon at bt.com (michael.dillon at bt.com) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 18:55:32 +0100 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates In-Reply-To: <4ABEF678.5070708@rollernet.us> Message-ID: <28E139F46D45AF49A31950F88C4974580345BA31@E03MVZ2-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net> > Holy acronyms batman! > > Can someone please explain to me why complicating a process > that's already very simple and easy to work with is a good thing? While simplicity is a good way to provide a transaction service for the bulk of the users, it cannot untangle the existing complexity in a small number of the larger ISPs. If it is necessary to have some alphabet soup to help those few organizations, who have a large number of transactions, then it is reasonable for ARIN to prepare a bit of alphabet soup. In any case, even simple things like the RFC822 object model and SMTP, can get stale with age. In this case it forces ARIN to do all of this processing on their email servers, and even worse, it uses the same email address as is used to contact their hostmasters. It makes an awful lot of sense to do the automated transactions on a server that has nothing to do with email, and use a unique email address (and probably subdomain) to get the transactions to that server. Once you have done that, the RFC822 templates and SMTP seem like a lot of overkill. On a completely different level, there is a problem with getting technically skilled people to work on the SWIP transaction service. Hundreds of thousands of people have experience with RESTful web services. But very few people have experience with building and maintaining SMTP transaction systems and most of those people are not in the USA and are employed by spammers, phishers and other criminal groups. ARIN should not be dependent on any technology that is too far from the mainstream and when the mainstream moves in a new direction, ARIN should move too. --Michael Dillon From michael.dillon at bt.com Sun Sep 27 13:58:10 2009 From: michael.dillon at bt.com (michael.dillon at bt.com) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 18:58:10 +0100 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates In-Reply-To: <718C2026-A100-4E3A-8350-F003CB799A27@delong.com> Message-ID: <28E139F46D45AF49A31950F88C4974580345BA32@E03MVZ2-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net> > As such, I don't see the logic behind pressuring people to > the web interface. A web interface can provide an error message if there is a problem with the template, and put the exception handling load onto the organization that is responsible for the exceptions. This can't be done in the same way with an asynchronous protocol like the current RFC822/SMTP one. --Michael Dillon From marka at isc.org Sun Sep 27 19:23:58 2009 From: marka at isc.org (Mark Andrews) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:23:58 +1000 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 27 Sep 2009 08:39:30 MST." <718C2026-A100-4E3A-8350-F003CB799A27@delong.com> References: <20090925211242.GA9084@arin.net> <28E139F46D45AF49A31950F88C4974580345B9DA@E03MVZ2-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net> <19134.23651.745806.519058@world.std.com> <718C2026-A100-4E3A-8350-F003CB799A27@delong.com> Message-ID: <200909272323.n8RNNwIT051010@drugs.dv.isc.org> If you really want to automate then use DNS UPDATE w/ TSIG for everything in the delegation. If/when DNSSEC takes off this really is the way for key rollovers to be handled. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka at isc.org From mahannig at akamai.com Fri Sep 25 19:48:55 2009 From: mahannig at akamai.com (Hannigan, Martin) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 19:48:55 -0400 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates Message-ID: I don't have any problems with deprecating the first class described and I'd include DMR updates. Best, Martin ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Kosters To: Middleton, Stephen R Cc: consult at arin.net Sent: Fri Sep 25 17:12:42 2009 Subject: Re: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates Hi If we can tussle this apart a bit. There are two classes of templates. The first class of templates are those that do not appear to be automated. Those are orgs, pocs, and requests for number resources. The second class of templates are swips - reassign detailed, reassign simple, reallocate, and netmod. These are heavily automated. For the first class, we like to hear from you if we can deprecate the use of templates and use the web interface. For the second class, we have had start of a discussion of better ways to handle automated and bulk submissions at the San Antonio meeting. The discussion leaned towards using a RESTful web interface. Of course, if we were to do this, there would be ample time to agree to this approach and to cut over. We are not there yet. Mark On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 04:51:23PM -0400, Middleton, Stephen R wrote: > Rather than write an epistle of my own; I will simply state my agreement > with Owen DeLong, Scott Leibrand, Seth Mattinen, Rich Emmings, and Ralph > Sims (and many others soon to follow). > > I echo that email templates should be kept forever and that if a choice > between web interface and emailed templates is to be made; emailed > templates must stay. > > Thank you, > > Stephen Middleton > Verizon Services Operations > IP Address Management > IP and Data Backbone Engineering > 703-390-0778 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-consult-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-consult-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong > Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 3:56 PM > To: consult at arin.net > Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates > > They are a quick and convenient format for resource applications which > are easily > automated where applicable. > > I do not believe that they should be retired. > > Owen _______________________________________________ ARIN-Consult You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Consult Mailing List (ARIN-consult at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From prescott at wcoil.com Mon Sep 28 10:13:10 2009 From: prescott at wcoil.com (prescott at wcoil.com) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:13:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates In-Reply-To: <8DD190E9-8E24-425B-887B-CF7CCBAB5A3A@delong.com> References: <35079EC0-F286-40D4-85FA-11A2DDC90F65@delong.com> <20090925211242.GA9084@arin.net> <8DD190E9-8E24-425B-887B-CF7CCBAB5A3A@delong.com> Message-ID: I also do not want to see email go away. It is an easy way of handling template submission. The compromise might be to have a restful web interface and have the arin email system inject templates into the web interface. This would allow the web api, but would also keep the email going for those of us who use it. -- Kelly Prescott On Fri, 25 Sep 2009, Owen DeLong wrote: > Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:18:41 -0700 > From: Owen DeLong > To: Mark Kosters > Cc: "consult at arin.net" > Subject: Re: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates > > > On Sep 25, 2009, at 2:12 PM, Mark Kosters wrote: > >> Hi >> >> If we can tussle this apart a bit. There are two classes of templates. >> The first class of templates are those that do not appear to be automated. >> Those are orgs, pocs, and requests for number resources. >> > >> The second class of templates are swips - reassign detailed, reassign >> simple, >> reallocate, and netmod. These are heavily automated. >> >> For the first class, we like to hear from you if we can deprecate the use >> of templates and use the web interface. >> > There are reasons beyond automation to preserve the email templates. > Having said that, I do have some tools that do somewhat automate the > production of number resource applications and POC updates which > I occasionally do on behalf of my clients. > > Therefore, I oppose deprecation even of these templates. > >> >> For the second class, we have had start of a discussion of better ways >> to handle automated and bulk submissions at the San Antonio meeting. The >> discussion leaned towards using a RESTful web interface. Of course, if we >> were to do this, there would be ample time to agree to this approach and to >> cut over. We are not there yet. >> > I'm all for adding the ability to use the RESTful web interface or some other > API for automation/bulk submissions, but, I do not think that it should be > done to the exclusion of the email template submission. > > Owen > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Consult > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Consult > Mailing > List (ARIN-consult at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult Please contact the ARIN > Member Services > Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From stephen.r.middleton at verizon.com Mon Sep 28 10:18:54 2009 From: stephen.r.middleton at verizon.com (Middleton, Stephen R) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:18:54 -0400 Subject: [ARIN-consult] EoL for Email Templates In-Reply-To: <4ABD0EA6.18476.1459F246@farmer.umn.edu> Message-ID: To Quote David Farmer: "To be honest, I can't really even imagine Email Templates going away. But, I do have some sympathy for Mark and ARIN's developers, do they have to support Email as a API forever and ever?" My question to ARIN is this; since the inception of web based RSD requests, what is the percentage of requests (overall) that come in through email and through the web? ARIN - RSD, do you have those numbers handy? Thank you, Stephen Middleton Verizon Services Operations IP Address Management IP and Data Backbone Engineering 703-390-0778 -----Original Message----- From: arin-consult-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-consult-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of David Farmer Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 7:41 PM To: arin-consult at arin.net Subject: [ARIN-consult] EoL for Email Templates To be honest, I can't really even imagine Email Templates going away. But, I do have some sympathy for Mark and ARIN's developers, do they have to support Email as a API forever and ever? So maybe we should think about about this simply as a product life cycle question. I expect my product vendors to have a replacement product out an operating for some time before they announce the End-of-Life for the previous product. Lets say 1 year for sake of discussion. Then, I normally expect the vendor to provide support for a product for 3 to 5 years following the announcement of the the End-of-Life. So, if ARIN were to fully have a new replacement for some Email Template released on 10/1/2009. Then it might be reasonable to announce EOL for that template 10/1/2010, with support for the Template to cease on 10/1/2015. If we think of Email Templates as a product that is 20 to 25 years old, which was adapted from another product, a paper form, maybe 30 or more years old. (Although Paper forms are much older than that, they just weren't use for requesting Internet Resource until about 30 year ago or so). So, maybe it is not completely unreasonable to consider a EoL process for for Email Templates. But, I wouldn't be thinking about making them go away until like 2015 or beyond. What do others think of something like that? This would at least give Mark and the developers a light at the end of the tunnel, all be it a long tunnel from their prospective. =============================================== David Farmer Email:farmer at umn.edu Office of Information Technology Networking & Telecomunication Services University of Minnesota Phone: 612-626-0815 2218 University Ave SE Cell: 612-812-9952 Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 FAX: 612-626-1818 =============================================== _______________________________________________ ARIN-Consult You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Consult Mailing List (ARIN-consult at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From eric at atlantech.net Mon Sep 28 10:29:20 2009 From: eric at atlantech.net (Eric Van Tol) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:29:20 -0400 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates In-Reply-To: References: <35079EC0-F286-40D4-85FA-11A2DDC90F65@delong.com> <20090925211242.GA9084@arin.net> <8DD190E9-8E24-425B-887B-CF7CCBAB5A3A@delong.com> Message-ID: <2C05E949E19A9146AF7BDF9D44085B863B3E88207B@exchange.aoihq.local> If what I understand is true, only the POC contact and the like are slated to be retired, correct? We personally have no problems with this, although there are likely members out there that make frequent enough updates to those items that would disagree with this sentiment. If we are talking about SWIP templates, I wholeheartedly disagree with this proposal. We, too, have systems that automatically create these templates based on assignment information garnered from our internal provisioning system. It takes someone two minutes to peruse the accuracy of the 15 or so templates a week and email them to ARIN. The introduction of a web form as the only source to update such information will be a detriment to ARIN and a large population of its users, as it's likely that frustration, then apathy, would take over because updating items in bulk through a web form, quite frankly, sucks. It's just plain time-consuming and will end up making everyone's life more difficult because the SWIPs would simply not be filled out. I hate to say it, but it's true. "Web 2.0" is mostly garbage and we don't need a "wizard" or "point and click" interface to do everything. I would be in favor of an API, but ARIN must realize that not every member out there has software folk in their employ regularly that are able to just whip up a new interface using the latest alphabet soup du jour. And while it's probably not considered an API, the idea of being able to upload, say, a CSV file with all the appropriate information could also be something to consider. SWIP = Serious Business -evt > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-consult-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-consult-bounces at arin.net] > On Behalf Of prescott at wcoil.com > Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 10:13 AM > To: consult at arin.net > Subject: Re: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates > > I also do not want to see email go away. > It is an easy way of handling template submission. > > The compromise might be to have a restful web interface and have the arin > email system inject templates into the web interface. > This would allow the web api, but would also keep the email going for > those of us who use it. > > -- Kelly Prescott > > On Fri, 25 Sep 2009, Owen DeLong wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:18:41 -0700 > > From: Owen DeLong > > To: Mark Kosters > > Cc: "consult at arin.net" > > Subject: Re: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates > > > > > > On Sep 25, 2009, at 2:12 PM, Mark Kosters wrote: > > > >> Hi > >> > >> If we can tussle this apart a bit. There are two classes of templates. > >> The first class of templates are those that do not appear to be > automated. > >> Those are orgs, pocs, and requests for number resources. > >> > > > >> The second class of templates are swips - reassign detailed, reassign > >> simple, > >> reallocate, and netmod. These are heavily automated. > >> > >> For the first class, we like to hear from you if we can deprecate the > use > >> of templates and use the web interface. > >> > > There are reasons beyond automation to preserve the email templates. > > Having said that, I do have some tools that do somewhat automate the > > production of number resource applications and POC updates which > > I occasionally do on behalf of my clients. > > > > Therefore, I oppose deprecation even of these templates. > > > >> > >> For the second class, we have had start of a discussion of better ways > >> to handle automated and bulk submissions at the San Antonio meeting. > The > >> discussion leaned towards using a RESTful web interface. Of course, if > we > >> were to do this, there would be ample time to agree to this approach > and to > >> cut over. We are not there yet. > >> > > I'm all for adding the ability to use the RESTful web interface or some > other > > API for automation/bulk submissions, but, I do not think that it should > be > > done to the exclusion of the email template submission. > > > > Owen > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ARIN-Consult > > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Consult > > Mailing > > List (ARIN-consult at arin.net). > > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult Please contact the > ARIN > > Member Services > > Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Consult > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Consult Mailing > List (ARIN-consult at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult Please contact the > ARIN Member Services > Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From eric at atlantech.net Mon Sep 28 10:51:04 2009 From: eric at atlantech.net (Eric Van Tol) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:51:04 -0400 Subject: [ARIN-consult] EoL for Email Templates In-Reply-To: References: <4ABD0EA6.18476.1459F246@farmer.umn.edu> Message-ID: <2C05E949E19A9146AF7BDF9D44085B863B3E88207C@exchange.aoihq.local> If what I understand is true, only the POC contact and the like are slated to be retired, correct? We personally have no problems with this, although there are likely members out there that make frequent enough updates to those items that would disagree with this sentiment. If we are talking about SWIP templates, I wholeheartedly disagree with this proposal. We, too, have systems that automatically create these templates based on assignment information garnered from our internal provisioning system. It takes someone two minutes to peruse the accuracy of the 15 or so templates a week and email them to ARIN. The introduction of a web form as the only source to update such information will be a detriment to ARIN and a large population of its users, as it's likely that frustration, then apathy, would take over because updating items in bulk through a web form, quite frankly, sucks. It's just plain time-consuming and will end up making everyone's life more difficult because the SWIPs would simply not be filled out. I hate to say it, but it's true. "Web 2.0" is mostly garbage and we don't need a "wizard" or "point and click" interface to do everything. I would be in favor of an API, but ARIN must realize that not every member out there has software folk in their employ regularly that are able to just whip up a new interface using the latest alphabet soup du jour. And while it's probably not considered an API, the idea of being able to upload, say, a CSV file with all the appropriate information could also be something to consider. SWIP = Serious Business -evt > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-consult-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-consult-bounces at arin.net] > On Behalf Of Middleton, Stephen R > Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 10:19 AM > To: arin-consult at arin.net > Subject: Re: [ARIN-consult] EoL for Email Templates > > To Quote David Farmer: > "To be honest, I can't really even imagine Email Templates going away. > But, I do have some sympathy for Mark and ARIN's developers, do they > have to support Email as a API forever and ever?" > > My question to ARIN is this; since the inception of web based RSD > requests, what is the percentage of requests (overall) that come in > through email and through the web? > > ARIN - RSD, do you have those numbers handy? > > Thank you, > > Stephen Middleton > Verizon Services Operations > IP Address Management > IP and Data Backbone Engineering > 703-390-0778 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-consult-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-consult-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of David Farmer > Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 7:41 PM > To: arin-consult at arin.net > Subject: [ARIN-consult] EoL for Email Templates > > To be honest, I can't really even imagine Email Templates > going away. But, I do have some sympathy for Mark and > ARIN's developers, do they have to support Email as a API > forever and ever? > > So maybe we should think about about this simply as a > product life cycle question. I expect my product vendors to > have a replacement product out an operating for some time > before they announce the End-of-Life for the previous product. > Lets say 1 year for sake of discussion. Then, I normally expect > the vendor to provide support for a product for 3 to 5 years > following the announcement of the the End-of-Life. > > So, if ARIN were to fully have a new replacement for some > Email Template released on 10/1/2009. Then it might be > reasonable to announce EOL for that template 10/1/2010, with > support for the Template to cease on 10/1/2015. > > If we think of Email Templates as a product that is 20 to 25 > years old, which was adapted from another product, a paper > form, maybe 30 or more years old. (Although Paper forms are > much older than that, they just weren't use for requesting > Internet Resource until about 30 year ago or so). > > So, maybe it is not completely unreasonable to consider a EoL > process for for Email Templates. But, I wouldn't be thinking > about making them go away until like 2015 or beyond. > > What do others think of something like that? This would at > least give Mark and the developers a light at the end of the > tunnel, all be it a long tunnel from their prospective. > > > =============================================== > David Farmer Email:farmer at umn.edu > Office of Information Technology > Networking & Telecomunication Services > University of Minnesota Phone: 612-626-0815 > 2218 University Ave SE Cell: 612-812-9952 > Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 FAX: 612-626-1818 > =============================================== > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Consult > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Consult Mailing > List (ARIN-consult at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult Please contact the > ARIN Member Services > Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Consult > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Consult Mailing > List (ARIN-consult at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult Please contact the > ARIN Member Services > Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From markk at arin.net Mon Sep 28 16:04:22 2009 From: markk at arin.net (Mark Kosters) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:04:22 -0400 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates In-Reply-To: <28E139F46D45AF49A31950F88C4974580345B9DA@E03MVZ2-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net> References: <20090925211242.GA9084@arin.net> <28E139F46D45AF49A31950F88C4974580345B9DA@E03MVZ2-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net> Message-ID: <20090928200422.GA10865@arin.net> On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 10:05:01AM -0400, michael.dillon at bt.com wrote: > P.S. Please consider replacing whois/rwhois at the same time > that you do this. Funny that you bring this up. At the upcoming ARIN meeting, there is a slot on thurs (Oct 22) where we will be demonstrating a potential replacement to whois/rwhois. We will demonstrate a RESTful interface to information that currently lives in whois. We'll have a public interface to the pilot as well. Mark From markk at arin.net Mon Sep 28 16:18:40 2009 From: markk at arin.net (Mark Kosters) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:18:40 -0400 Subject: [ARIN-consult] EoL for Email Templates In-Reply-To: References: <4ABD0EA6.18476.1459F246@farmer.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20090928201840.GB10865@arin.net> On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 10:18:54AM -0400, Middleton, Stephen R wrote: > My question to ARIN is this; since the inception of web based RSD > requests, what is the percentage of requests (overall) that come in > through email and through the web? ARIN Online started out with a bang. At its onset, 52% of the POC activity (adds/mods/deletes) were generated over the web. Over the months, activity has gradually increased to 69% of all POC activity. In adding both POC activity from both templates and ARIN Online, we saw on average of 960 transactions per month. The highest month we saw 1,298 transactions and lowest being 641 transactions. Mark From sethm at rollernet.us Mon Sep 28 19:15:43 2009 From: sethm at rollernet.us (Seth Mattinen) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:15:43 -0700 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates In-Reply-To: <20090928200422.GA10865@arin.net> References: <20090925211242.GA9084@arin.net> <28E139F46D45AF49A31950F88C4974580345B9DA@E03MVZ2-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net> <20090928200422.GA10865@arin.net> Message-ID: <4AC1439F.50309@rollernet.us> Mark Kosters wrote: > On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 10:05:01AM -0400, michael.dillon at bt.com wrote: >> P.S. Please consider replacing whois/rwhois at the same time >> that you do this. > > Funny that you bring this up. At the upcoming ARIN meeting, there is a slot on > thurs (Oct 22) where we will be demonstrating a potential replacement to > whois/rwhois. We will demonstrate a RESTful interface to information that > currently lives in whois. We'll have a public interface to the pilot as well. > So... we're getting rid of command line whois too? ~Seth From owen at delong.com Mon Sep 28 19:23:01 2009 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:23:01 -0700 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates In-Reply-To: <4AC1439F.50309@rollernet.us> References: <20090925211242.GA9084@arin.net> <28E139F46D45AF49A31950F88C4974580345B9DA@E03MVZ2-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net> <20090928200422.GA10865@arin.net> <4AC1439F.50309@rollernet.us> Message-ID: <3F679DE2-54BE-4359-B445-D84234FA0654@delong.com> On Sep 28, 2009, at 4:15 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote: > Mark Kosters wrote: >> On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 10:05:01AM -0400, michael.dillon at bt.com >> wrote: >>> P.S. Please consider replacing whois/rwhois at the same time >>> that you do this. >> >> Funny that you bring this up. At the upcoming ARIN meeting, there >> is a slot on >> thurs (Oct 22) where we will be demonstrating a potential >> replacement to >> whois/rwhois. We will demonstrate a RESTful interface to >> information that >> currently lives in whois. We'll have a public interface to the >> pilot as well. >> > > > So... we're getting rid of command line whois too? > I certainly hope not. Owen ] From michael.dillon at bt.com Tue Sep 29 04:35:47 2009 From: michael.dillon at bt.com (michael.dillon at bt.com) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 09:35:47 +0100 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates In-Reply-To: <4AC1439F.50309@rollernet.us> Message-ID: <28E139F46D45AF49A31950F88C497458034F9ED7@E03MVZ2-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net> > So... we're getting rid of command line whois too? Command line whois is a client application. Changing the protocol used for whois queries only means that the client applications need to be updated. I would expect ARIN to provide example client applications for any protocol changes, and a whois client seems to be an ideal choice for an example. --Michael Dillon From owen at delong.com Tue Sep 29 07:43:03 2009 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 04:43:03 -0700 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates In-Reply-To: <28E139F46D45AF49A31950F88C497458034F9ED7@E03MVZ2-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net> References: <28E139F46D45AF49A31950F88C497458034F9ED7@E03MVZ2-UKDY.domain1.systemhost.net> Message-ID: <035E7E4A-6CA6-4303-88D8-2B54BDDE420E@delong.com> whois protocol is used across a variety of organizations beyond ARIN and removing the whois protocol interface to the data would, IMHO, be a mistake. Owen On Sep 29, 2009, at 1:35 AM, wrote: > >> So... we're getting rid of command line whois too? > > Command line whois is a client application. Changing the protocol > used for whois queries only means that the client applications need > to be updated. I would expect ARIN to provide example client > applications for any protocol changes, and a whois client seems > to be an ideal choice for an example. > > --Michael Dillon > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Consult > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the > ARIN Consult Mailing > List (ARIN-consult at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult Please contact > the ARIN Member Services > Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From mahannig at akamai.com Tue Sep 29 07:51:51 2009 From: mahannig at akamai.com (Hannigan, Martin) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 07:51:51 -0400 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Owen DeLong To: Cc: consult at arin.net Sent: Tue Sep 29 07:43:03 2009 Subject: Re: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates whois protocol is used across a variety of organizations beyond ARIN and removing the whois protocol interface to the data would, IMHO, be a mistake. Owen On Sep 29, 2009, at 1:35 AM, wrote: > >> So... we're getting rid of command line whois too? > > Command line whois is a client application. Changing the protocol > used for whois queries only means that the client applications need > to be updated. I would expect ARIN to provide example client > applications for any protocol changes, and a whois client seems > to be an ideal choice for an example. > > --Michael Dillon > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Consult > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the > ARIN Consult Mailing > List (ARIN-consult at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult Please contact > the ARIN Member Services > Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Consult You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Consult Mailing List (ARIN-consult at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mahannig at akamai.com Tue Sep 29 08:03:36 2009 From: mahannig at akamai.com (Hannigan, Martin) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 08:03:36 -0400 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates Message-ID: Sorry for the earlier misfire. First cup of coffee and blackberries don't mix. Anyhoo... That's what they said about gopher and archie. I think that this is slightly different, but not by much. Perhaps it even means it has outlived its usefulness? Its rare that I run a cli whois and has been for sometime and I think that's common with win being the dominant platform. The challenge is OSS and automated functions, but theoretically those needs could be met with bulk transfer or a new interface. I'm wondering how many people here have actually used the portal, even with its current limitations? I'm using it manage a -lot of IP address a space, orgs and POCS and I'm looking forward to it being a near one stop shop. [Hey Mark, can you guys add csv export of POC linked PI and PA into some near future release? Would help for correlation of space during subsequent allocations :) ] YMMV, -M< ----- Original Message ----- From: Hannigan, Martin Cc: 'consult at arin.net' Sent: Tue Sep 29 07:51:51 2009 Subject: Re: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates ----- Original Message ----- From: Owen DeLong To: Cc: consult at arin.net Sent: Tue Sep 29 07:43:03 2009 Subject: Re: [ARIN-consult] Oppose retiring email templates whois protocol is used across a variety of organizations beyond ARIN and removing the whois protocol interface to the data would, IMHO, be a mistake. Owen On Sep 29, 2009, at 1:35 AM, wrote: > >> So... we're getting rid of command line whois too? > > Command line whois is a client application. Changing the protocol > used for whois queries only means that the client applications need > to be updated. I would expect ARIN to provide example client > applications for any protocol changes, and a whois client seems > to be an ideal choice for an example. > > --Michael Dillon > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Consult > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the > ARIN Consult Mailing > List (ARIN-consult at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult Please contact > the ARIN Member Services > Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Consult You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Consult Mailing List (ARIN-consult at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MJW at peirce.com Tue Sep 29 08:26:33 2009 From: MJW at peirce.com (Michael J. Wetmore) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 08:26:33 -0400 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Retiring ARIN E-mail Templates Message-ID: <821C9257CA99674B8820BF6307C4E0DA07CFCC9B@ppph4a.peirce.com> If the email templates are not preventing present planned enhancements, why retire them? I find them far more efficient than using a web form. PEIRCE-PHELPS, INC. Michael Wetmore IS Department mjw at peirce.com (215) 879-7202 From igoldste at mum.neric.org Tue Sep 29 09:13:14 2009 From: igoldste at mum.neric.org (Ira Goldstein) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 09:13:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ARIN-consult] Oppose EoL for Email Templates Message-ID: I agree with the many prior notes and I am writing to express support for keeping text templates. Ira Goldstein Manger, NERIC e-Tech From babydr at baby-dragons.com Mon Sep 28 13:12:17 2009 From: babydr at baby-dragons.com (Mr. James W. Laferriere) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:12:17 -0800 (AKDT) Subject: [ARIN-consult] ACSP Consultation: Retiring ARIN E-mail Templates Message-ID: Hello Consult , The only way I could support the removal of the email templates would be if ... Arin configured the portal allow the participant to 'Save' the request form as a filled in email template form to their local system . And Arin configured the portal to allow the user to setup email responses back to the participant , again just as if a email form had been used . This allows the USER to still have both worlds . Tia , JimL -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | James W. Laferriere | System Techniques | Give me VMS | | Network&System Engineer | 2133 McCullam Ave | Give me Linux | | babydr at baby-dragons.com | Fairbanks, AK. 99701 | only on AXP | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ From heather.schiller at verizonbusiness.com Wed Sep 30 11:25:43 2009 From: heather.schiller at verizonbusiness.com (Schiller, Heather A (HeatherSkanks)) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 15:25:43 +0000 Subject: [ARIN-consult] Call for Community Consultation - Retiring ARIN E-mail Templates In-Reply-To: <4ABD1C85.6050703@internap.com> References: <4ABD15F2.7080608@arin.net> <4ABD1C85.6050703@internap.com> Message-ID: +1 Scott's comments succinctly sum up what I wanted to say.. Email templates are integrated into our IP Management system. Until ARIN provides a programmatic interface for upating whois, we require the reallocate, reassign and netmod email templates to be available. I don't have a problem with migrating some of the other templates to the website, such as pocmod and asnmod. My other request would be that when you get there, provide a way to turn off email submissions for all of your resources. This way, if you keep the email templates around, admins have a way of saying 'Please don't accept email submissions for this ORG anymore' --heather -----Original Message----- From: arin-consult-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-consult-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Scott Leibrand Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 3:40 PM To: Member Services Cc: arin-consult at arin.net Subject: Re: [ARIN-consult] Call for Community Consultation - Retiring ARIN E-mail Templates We primarily use the e-mail templates as an API to interface with our IP management system. It's important that such automated functionality remain available, rather than requiring transactions to go through a website designed for humans. Once all of the templates' functionality is available via an API and website interfaces, it may be reasonable to deprecate and eventually retire the e-mail templates. However, such a change needs to be communicated well in advance, to give everyone time to update their own systems to interact with the new API, and do appropriate testing, etc. -Scott Member Services wrote: > ARIN is interested in receiving community feedback on when and if it > should retire e-mail templates as duplicate functionality is made > available through ARIN Online. As we build new features into the > website, we would like to eliminate redundant and legacy services. We > are seeking community input to determine if there is community support > for this approach. > > Discussion on consult at arin.net will close at noon EDT 30 Oct 2009. ARIN > will use the feedback provided to determine if we need to continue to > provide redundant legacy services alongside ARIN Online. > > The ARIN Consultation and Suggestion Process documentation is available > at: https://www.arin.net/participate/acsp/index.html > > All are welcome to participate. Please address any process questions to > info at arin.net. > > Regards, > > Member Services > American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Consult > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Consult Mailing > List (ARIN-consult at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult Please contact the > ARIN Member Services > Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Consult You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Consult Mailing List (ARIN-consult at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.