[arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 128, Issue 7

[dmahoney at dataonenetworks.biz]

+1

Here also as I also support this policy change proposal.

Regards,
Don


On 2/19/16 6:29 PM, Elvis Daniel Velea wrote:
> +1
>
> I also support this policy change proposal.
>
> regards,
> elvis
>
> On 2/19/16 11:01 AM, Mike Burns wrote:
>> Hi McTim,
>>
>> https://labs.ripe.net/Members/wilhelm/ipv4-transfers-in-the-ripe-ncc-service-region 
>>
>>
>> That RIPE labs report is not evidence of the speculation we are 
>> considering in the context of the current policy.
>> You are opposing this policy because you think it will 
>> enable/encourage speculation in the transfer market.
>> This policy is related to transfers, not to over-allocations made 
>> under the old regime.
>>
>> This particular country's addresses were not purchased on the 
>> transfer market. They were accumulated prior to exhaust under the 
>> then-extant needs-based allocations policies, aka longstanding 
>> policies, aka proper stewardship. And then (somewhat) after exhaust 
>> via gaming the "/22 for new ISPs" rule at RIPE.
>>
>> This is not evidence of speculation on the transfer market, it is 
>> merely the evidence that market forces act on this resource already. 
>> They can induce corruption, rules-avoidance, oh yes indeed they can.
>> But as I sort of said, that genie is out of the bottle.
>> We should be attentive related to evidence of this kind of 
>> speculation involving allocations from the final free pool in 
>> AFRINIC, I am sure we both agree on that.
>>
>> Changing the rules about needs-testing paid transfers is not going to 
>> enable/encourage or disable/discourage profit and rent-seeking.  
>> Profit and rent-seeking is allowed under current policy and will 
>> happen regardless of policy anyway.
>> That won't be significantly changed by maintaining needs tests for 
>> ARIN transfers.
>>
>> After all, if you can't justify, become a RIPE member and buy RIPE 
>> addresses. It's as simple as that.
>> Anybody can do it, plus they get a /22 for their trouble!  And then 
>> they can buy RIPE addresses without demonstrating need.
>> So what is the point of retaining this needs test in the current 
>> environment?
>>
>> We can't stop market forces from acting on IPv4 addresses, but we 
>> should understand that these forces can also induce the movement of 
>> unused resources into productive use. In fact that is the natural 
>> thing. We have brokered the sale of so many blocks which were unused 
>> for decades. This is evidence of this positive effect of the market.
>>
>> Now since I have admitted that market forces can lead to corruption 
>> and rules-avoidance, can you acknowledge that bringing dusty old 
>> blocks back into productive use is a positive effect of the market?
>> One ideologue to another ? ;-)
>>
>> Anyway I guess we both understand each other's positions by now, so I 
>> will just register my support for the policy and step off the soapbox.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>>
>> PS made it to the end without mentioning Whois accuracy!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: McTim [mailto:dogwallah at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 12:17 PM
>> To: Mike Burns <mike at iptrading.com>
>> Cc: arin-ppml at arin.net
>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 128, Issue 7
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Mike Burns <mike at iptrading.com> wrote:
>>> The existence of your company and other "brokers" isn't evidence
>>> enough that people want to make money solely by buying and selling 
>>> v4 resources?
>>>
>>> Methinks you fail to see the forest for the trees!
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> McTim
>>>
>>>> Hi McTim,
>>> I'm really not sure what you are saying above, but actually the
>>> existence of brokers like me is in fact evidence that people want to
>>> make money solely by buying and selling IPv4 addresses.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Of course, there has been speculation going on for years in the EU.
>>
>> Look at the top ten by country table near the bottom of this page:
>>
>> https://labs.ripe.net/Members/wilhelm/ipv4-transfers-in-the-ripe-ncc-service-region 
>>
>>
>> and ask yourself why one small country punches above its weight in 
>> exported v4.
>>
>> While these PI blocks were acquired within policy, it is clear that 
>> they were obtained for later resale, which is definition #2 below:
>>
>> spec·u·la·tion
>> ˌspekyəˈlāSH(ə)n/
>> noun
>>
>> 1.
>> the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.
>> "there has been widespread speculation that he plans to quit"
>> 2.
>> investment in stocks, property, or other ventures in the hope of gain 
>> but with the risk of loss.
>> "the company's move into property speculation"
>>
>>
>> So I am not in favor of removing restrictions on bad behaviour just 
>> because some have engaged in said behaviour in other regions.  I am 
>> not saying this is fraudulent behaviour, but certainly speculative in 
>> nature and not in the best interests of the Internet community.  That 
>> of course is my ideology showing, and I make no bones about it.
>>
>> I am a big fan of accuracy in public network information databases, 
>> which is why I authored "no reverse without assignment" in the 
>> AFRINIC region, so the whole "you don't care about registry accuracy' 
>> argument doesn't fly with me.
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Cheers,
>>
>> McTim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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