From owen at delong.com Mon Apr 2 14:27:57 2012 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 11:27:57 -0700 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates Message-ID: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> A while back, ARIN stopped accepting email templates for resource requests. I believe in the discussions at members meetings prior to this, we were assured that the addition of a web interface would not remove the ability to use templates and I, for one, find templates to be much easier and more convenient than a web interface (especially the current state of ARIN on-line). Suggestion 2011.21 was submitted as an effort to address this. It is my understanding that 2011.21 has not received any support from the membership. If any of you are interested in having template functionality restored, ARIN needs to know that. If not, likely this suggestion is soon to be closed without any action and templates will forever fade into history. Owen From sweeny at indiana.edu Mon Apr 2 14:41:08 2012 From: sweeny at indiana.edu (Brent Sweeny) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 14:41:08 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> Message-ID: <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> I agree that the templates and email submission of templates are very useful and would like to see them retained. Brent Sweeny, Indiana University On 4/2/2012 2:27 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: > A while back, ARIN stopped accepting email templates for resource requests. > > I believe in the discussions at members meetings prior to this, we were assured that the addition of a web interface would not remove the ability to use templates and I, for one, find templates to be much easier and more convenient than a web interface (especially the current state of ARIN on-line). > > Suggestion 2011.21 was submitted as an effort to address this. It is my understanding that 2011.21 has not received any support from the membership. If any of you are interested in having template functionality restored, ARIN needs to know that. If not, likely this suggestion is soon to be closed without any action and templates will forever fade into history. > > Owen From Jawaid.Bazyar at forethought.net Mon Apr 2 14:51:27 2012 From: Jawaid.Bazyar at forethought.net (Jawaid Bazyar) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 12:51:27 -0600 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> Message-ID: <4F79F52F.90001@forethought.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: logo.png Type: image/png Size: 6512 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mdaniels at nframe.com Mon Apr 2 14:59:36 2012 From: mdaniels at nframe.com (Mark Danielson) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 14:59:36 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> Message-ID: <4F79F718.5050106@nframe.com> I agree. Mark On 04/02/2012 14:41, Brent Sweeny wrote: > I agree that the templates and email submission of templates are very > useful and would like to see them retained. > Brent Sweeny, Indiana University > > On 4/2/2012 2:27 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: >> A while back, ARIN stopped accepting email templates for resource requests. >> >> I believe in the discussions at members meetings prior to this, we were assured that the addition of a web interface would not remove the ability to use templates and I, for one, find templates to be much easier and more convenient than a web interface (especially the current state of ARIN on-line). >> >> Suggestion 2011.21 was submitted as an effort to address this. It is my understanding that 2011.21 has not received any support from the membership. If any of you are interested in having template functionality restored, ARIN needs to know that. If not, likely this suggestion is soon to be closed without any action and templates will forever fade into history. >> >> Owen From johnb at infinitie.net Mon Apr 2 14:57:24 2012 From: johnb at infinitie.net (John B) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 18:57:24 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> Message-ID: <2085697286-1333393044-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-525040223-@b4.c14.bise6.blackberry> I second that. And would also like to see them retained John brancela Eonix -----Original Message----- From: Brent Sweeny Sender: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 14:41:08 To: Owen DeLong Reply-To: sweeny at indiana.edu Cc: arin-discuss List Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates I agree that the templates and email submission of templates are very useful and would like to see them retained. Brent Sweeny, Indiana University On 4/2/2012 2:27 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: > A while back, ARIN stopped accepting email templates for resource requests. > > I believe in the discussions at members meetings prior to this, we were assured that the addition of a web interface would not remove the ability to use templates and I, for one, find templates to be much easier and more convenient than a web interface (especially the current state of ARIN on-line). > > Suggestion 2011.21 was submitted as an effort to address this. It is my understanding that 2011.21 has not received any support from the membership. If any of you are interested in having template functionality restored, ARIN needs to know that. If not, likely this suggestion is soon to be closed without any action and templates will forever fade into history. > > Owen _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From lambert at psc.edu Mon Apr 2 15:01:39 2012 From: lambert at psc.edu (Michael H Lambert) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 15:01:39 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> Message-ID: <88ECF922-844F-4B68-807D-4627D2B394C6@psc.edu> On 2 Apr 2012, at 14:41, Brent Sweeny wrote: > I agree that the templates and email submission of templates are very > useful and would like to see them retained. I concur. Given a choice, I would prefer the template over the web interface. Michael From lesmith at ecsis.net Mon Apr 2 15:13:51 2012 From: lesmith at ecsis.net (Larry Smith) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 14:13:51 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> Message-ID: <201204021413.51776.lesmith@ecsis.net> Agree, would like to see them retained. The web form is more prone to typos and errors than a form you can fill out and review before submitting... -- Larry Smith lesmith at ecsis.net On Mon April 2 2012 13:41, Brent Sweeny wrote: > I agree that the templates and email submission of templates are very > useful and would like to see them retained. > Brent Sweeny, Indiana University > > On 4/2/2012 2:27 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: > > A while back, ARIN stopped accepting email templates for resource > > requests. > > > > I believe in the discussions at members meetings prior to this, we were > > assured that the addition of a web interface would not remove the ability > > to use templates and I, for one, find templates to be much easier and > > more convenient than a web interface (especially the current state of > > ARIN on-line). > > > > Suggestion 2011.21 was submitted as an effort to address this. It is my > > understanding that 2011.21 has not received any support from the > > membership. If any of you are interested in having template functionality > > restored, ARIN needs to know that. If not, likely this suggestion is soon > > to be closed without any action and templates will forever fade into > > history. > > > > Owen > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From john at citylinkfiber.com Mon Apr 2 15:16:03 2012 From: john at citylinkfiber.com (John Brown) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 19:16:03 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> Message-ID: I AGREE. Email templates are useful and SHOULD be retained. Many other network resource tools are still based on email templates and THOSE work just fine. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to program the creation or parsing of a template. Isn't dependent on some specific technology (other than TXT and SMTP) PLEASE BRING THEM BACK / KEEP THEM. > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss- > bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 12:28 PM > To: arin-discuss List > Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates > > A while back, ARIN stopped accepting email templates for resource requests. > > I believe in the discussions at members meetings prior to this, we were > assured that the addition of a web interface would not remove the ability to > use templates and I, for one, find templates to be much easier and more > convenient than a web interface (especially the current state of ARIN on- > line). > > Suggestion 2011.21 was submitted as an effort to address this. It is my > understanding that 2011.21 has not received any support from the > membership. If any of you are interested in having template functionality > restored, ARIN needs to know that. If not, likely this suggestion is soon to be > closed without any action and templates will forever fade into history. > > Owen > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From david at cloudflare.com Mon Apr 2 15:17:37 2012 From: david at cloudflare.com (David Conrad) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 15:17:37 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <88ECF922-844F-4B68-807D-4627D2B394C6@psc.edu> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <88ECF922-844F-4B68-807D-4627D2B394C6@psc.edu> Message-ID: Maintaining backwards compatibility can be expensive and quite constraining. It might be worthwhile finding out how much it will cost to maintain the email-based system and what folks will have to give up functionality-wise (or perhaps what can't be implemented in the web interface if parity is required) if they insist on use templates. Regards, -drc On Apr 2, 2012, at 3:01 PM, Michael H Lambert wrote: > On 2 Apr 2012, at 14:41, Brent Sweeny wrote: > >> I agree that the templates and email submission of templates are very >> useful and would like to see them retained. > > I concur. Given a choice, I would prefer the template over the web interface. > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From IP-Admin at PRIMUSTEL.com Mon Apr 2 15:17:32 2012 From: IP-Admin at PRIMUSTEL.com (#IP-Admin) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 15:17:32 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <201204021413.51776.lesmith@ecsis.net> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com><4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <201204021413.51776.lesmith@ecsis.net> Message-ID: <3D0A7EC0BE94F044AD33F678EB8CB9A808F63A04@MCLEXE01.us.primus> I agree, I prefer the email templates over the web form Rich Dierlam Primus -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Larry Smith Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 3:14 PM To: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates Agree, would like to see them retained. The web form is more prone to typos and errors than a form you can fill out and review before submitting... -- Larry Smith lesmith at ecsis.net On Mon April 2 2012 13:41, Brent Sweeny wrote: > I agree that the templates and email submission of templates are very > useful and would like to see them retained. > Brent Sweeny, Indiana University > > On 4/2/2012 2:27 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: > > A while back, ARIN stopped accepting email templates for resource > > requests. > > > > I believe in the discussions at members meetings prior to this, we > > were assured that the addition of a web interface would not remove > > the ability to use templates and I, for one, find templates to be > > much easier and more convenient than a web interface (especially the > > current state of ARIN on-line). > > > > Suggestion 2011.21 was submitted as an effort to address this. It is > > my understanding that 2011.21 has not received any support from the > > membership. If any of you are interested in having template > > functionality restored, ARIN needs to know that. If not, likely this > > suggestion is soon to be closed without any action and templates > > will forever fade into history. > > > > Owen > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From john at citylinkfiber.com Mon Apr 2 15:20:01 2012 From: john at citylinkfiber.com (John Brown) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 19:20:01 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <88ECF922-844F-4B68-807D-4627D2B394C6@psc.edu> Message-ID: Are there really fields on the web based that can't be implemented via the email system ?? > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss- > bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of David Conrad > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:18 PM > To: Michael H Lambert > Cc: arin-discuss List > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates > > Maintaining backwards compatibility can be expensive and quite > constraining. > > It might be worthwhile finding out how much it will cost to maintain the > email-based system and what folks will have to give up functionality-wise (or > perhaps what can't be implemented in the web interface if parity is required) > if they insist on use templates. > > Regards, > -drc > > > On Apr 2, 2012, at 3:01 PM, Michael H Lambert wrote: > > > On 2 Apr 2012, at 14:41, Brent Sweeny wrote: > > > >> I agree that the templates and email submission of templates are very > >> useful and would like to see them retained. > > > > I concur. Given a choice, I would prefer the template over the web > interface. > > > > Michael > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ARIN-Discuss > > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > > Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From ram at robertmarder.com Mon Apr 2 15:24:36 2012 From: ram at robertmarder.com (Robert Marder) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 14:24:36 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <3D0A7EC0BE94F044AD33F678EB8CB9A808F63A04@MCLEXE01.us.primus> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com><4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <201204021413.51776.lesmith@ecsis.net> <3D0A7EC0BE94F044AD33F678EB8CB9A808F63A04@MCLEXE01.us.primus> Message-ID: I agree as well. Templates are easier to fill out and it's nice to have a convenient log of all my requests. On 02.04.2012 14:17, #IP-Admin wrote: > I agree, I prefer the email templates over the web form > > > Rich Dierlam > Primus > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Larry Smith > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 3:14 PM > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request > Templates > > Agree, would like to see them retained. The web form is more prone > to > typos and errors than a form you can fill out and review before > submitting... > > -- > Larry Smith > lesmith at ecsis.net > > On Mon April 2 2012 13:41, Brent Sweeny wrote: >> I agree that the templates and email submission of templates are >> very >> useful and would like to see them retained. >> Brent Sweeny, Indiana University >> >> On 4/2/2012 2:27 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: >> > A while back, ARIN stopped accepting email templates for resource >> > requests. >> > >> > I believe in the discussions at members meetings prior to this, we >> > were assured that the addition of a web interface would not remove >> > the ability to use templates and I, for one, find templates to be >> > much easier and more convenient than a web interface (especially >> the > >> > current state of ARIN on-line). >> > >> > Suggestion 2011.21 was submitted as an effort to address this. It >> is > >> > my understanding that 2011.21 has not received any support from >> the >> > membership. If any of you are interested in having template >> > functionality restored, ARIN needs to know that. If not, likely >> this > >> > suggestion is soon to be closed without any action and templates >> > will forever fade into history. >> > >> > Owen >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the >> ARIN >> Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From alec at ionity.com Mon Apr 2 15:28:17 2012 From: alec at ionity.com (Alec Ginsberg) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 15:28:17 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <88ECF922-844F-4B68-807D-4627D2B394C6@psc.edu> Message-ID: <68EF194E-96BA-48EE-9EC9-6FEA3C057E0D@ionity.com> I don't think there is anything you could do in an email you couldn't do in a web interface. Shoot you could create a text area on the web ui where the template could be pasted into or a part of. That said... I don't see how anyone could possibly win the argument that the email template has more capability. I think possibly the real issue is usability of the web interface and that it may be lacking some usability components.. For example the ability to quickly modify a field or two and submit vs filling a form. To me what would make the most sense is to address the real problem.. Is it just that users are stuck in their old ways, or would everyone advocating that we should keep the templates... Be ok with the web ui if it were modified / changed to meet their needs? On Apr 2, 2012, at 2:21 PM, "John Brown" wrote: > Are there really fields on the web based that can't be implemented via the email system ?? > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss- >> bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of David Conrad >> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:18 PM >> To: Michael H Lambert >> Cc: arin-discuss List >> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates >> >> Maintaining backwards compatibility can be expensive and quite >> constraining. >> >> It might be worthwhile finding out how much it will cost to maintain the >> email-based system and what folks will have to give up functionality-wise (or >> perhaps what can't be implemented in the web interface if parity is required) >> if they insist on use templates. >> >> Regards, >> -drc >> >> >> On Apr 2, 2012, at 3:01 PM, Michael H Lambert wrote: >> >>> On 2 Apr 2012, at 14:41, Brent Sweeny wrote: >>> >>>> I agree that the templates and email submission of templates are very >>>> useful and would like to see them retained. >>> >>> I concur. Given a choice, I would prefer the template over the web >> interface. >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARIN-Discuss >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN >>> Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN >> Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From david at cloudflare.com Mon Apr 2 15:29:51 2012 From: david at cloudflare.com (David Conrad) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 15:29:51 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <88ECF922-844F-4B68-807D-4627D2B394C6@psc.edu> Message-ID: <1D04EF16-2ABB-4418-BAF3-5655040B9E6F@cloudflare.com> On Apr 2, 2012, at 3:20 PM, John Brown wrote: > Are there really fields on the web based that can't be implemented via the email system ?? You wish to constrain a web-based management system to what can be accommodated via email? Again: Maintaining backwards compatibility can be expensive and quite constraining. It may be that the advantages of maintaining compatibility with email outweigh the disadvantages, but this would seem to be contrary to the way the rest of the Internet industry is going. Regards, -drc From chris at ykwc.com Mon Apr 2 15:30:26 2012 From: chris at ykwc.com (Chris Cappuccio) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 12:30:26 -0700 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com><4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <201204021413.51776.lesmith@ecsis.net> <3D0A7EC0BE94F044AD33F678EB8CB9A808F63A04@MCLEXE01.us.primus> Message-ID: <4F79FE52.1080506@ykwc.com> On 04/02/12 12:24, Robert Marder wrote: > I agree as well. > > Templates are easier to fill out and it's nice to have a convenient > log of all my requests. Most of the cases made here for templates seem like lame excuses. The web interface could do all of these things and do them better than your e-mail client. What do you think the money that you pay to ARIN goes for? The real reason would be that folks who do lots of small/frequent updates have to do them by hand instead of doing them on the web. But the web interface is supposed to accommodate that as well. We're talking about dumping text editors and SMTP for HTTP forms which can be handled automatically as well. But the people who need this functionality have probably already figured out how to get it with ARIN. Chris From agallo at gwu.edu Mon Apr 2 15:25:08 2012 From: agallo at gwu.edu (Andrew Gallo) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 15:25:08 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <88ECF922-844F-4B68-807D-4627D2B394C6@psc.edu> Message-ID: <4F79FD14.7040903@gwu.edu> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Good point. I would like to see email maintained as an option. Merit's RADB used to accept email changes, with the option of GPG/PGP signatures which I found very useful for mass changes to our records. On 4/2/2012 3:17 PM, David Conrad wrote: > Maintaining backwards compatibility can be expensive and quite > constraining. > > It might be worthwhile finding out how much it will cost to > maintain the email-based system and what folks will have to give up > functionality-wise (or perhaps what can't be implemented in the web > interface if parity is required) if they insist on use templates. > > Regards, -drc > > > On Apr 2, 2012, at 3:01 PM, Michael H Lambert wrote: > >> On 2 Apr 2012, at 14:41, Brent Sweeny wrote: >> >>> I agree that the templates and email submission of templates >>> are very useful and would like to see them retained. >> >> I concur. Given a choice, I would prefer the template over the >> web interface. >> >> Michael >> >> _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You >> are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN >> Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or >> manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please >> contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > > _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You > are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or > manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact > info at arin.net if you experience any issues. - -- ____________ Andrew Gallo The George Washington University -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJPef0UAAoJEBxhAh+LWUKiSd0IALxjtGoN2WH2oFkEWQguQaOy kRPlVaS3kvQ9i1dGCpqZ/oCETyLGCNjvGInK+i4vLHKhU1BhNaSfE6ATOIWxlV5L SJEL6yo2J1jkA1o9KlXE2js+Yb11IXpOfLWouvSqCnvrhW2AQWm6bhWg3GiVX1lT jpvCDk0c9yJoLZvHv8ySIY7SMjFLtgxvpeXckhQi0/azjBeJILAG7oyAbHo0Bqie XMb67zrhrYtdZeVDPQEm1ixT5CPsweSp3PvuxAQK7Hw2MaEdiJwKJUOxeH5qmU5Z lag+ibicA712cHkf27sZW7mz8MOeN+Ha+7BAn2GoT7kr8UEqf/RyfXGD4ClO6ZU= =GjtL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From john at citylinkfiber.com Mon Apr 2 15:35:31 2012 From: john at citylinkfiber.com (John Brown) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 19:35:31 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <1D04EF16-2ABB-4418-BAF3-5655040B9E6F@cloudflare.com> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <88ECF922-844F-4B68-807D-4627D2B394C6@psc.edu> <1D04EF16-2ABB-4418-BAF3-5655040B9E6F@cloudflare.com> Message-ID: One also has to look at the development costs for members to change their back-office tools to accommodate a new, and changing, interface. So, yes, ARIN has a development cost. That is a single entity. 500 members have development costs. Seems like the needs of the many out weight the needs of the one..... :) The rest of the internet industry isn't a simple system. ARIN, IMHO, has a pretty tight set of objects it has to MAC (move add change). So really how much data needs to be associated with a CIDR block, an ASN, etc ??? > -----Original Message----- > From: David Conrad [mailto:david at cloudflare.com] > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:30 PM > To: John Brown > Cc: Michael H Lambert; arin-discuss List > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates > > On Apr 2, 2012, at 3:20 PM, John Brown wrote: > > Are there really fields on the web based that can't be implemented via the > email system ?? > > You wish to constrain a web-based management system to what can be > accommodated via email? > > Again: Maintaining backwards compatibility can be expensive and quite > constraining. It may be that the advantages of maintaining compatibility with > email outweigh the disadvantages, but this would seem to be contrary to the > way the rest of the Internet industry is going. > > Regards, > -drc From ram at robertmarder.com Mon Apr 2 15:39:18 2012 From: ram at robertmarder.com (Robert Marder) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 14:39:18 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <1D04EF16-2ABB-4418-BAF3-5655040B9E6F@cloudflare.com> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <88ECF922-844F-4B68-807D-4627D2B394C6@psc.edu> <1D04EF16-2ABB-4418-BAF3-5655040B9E6F@cloudflare.com> Message-ID: <80ab0a216153836ee2937127a5e65fb4@robertmarder.com> Again: can you come up with any example of something that the web interface can/could do that couldn't be done via email templates? For all we know ARIN's web interface may just be a frontend to the email template system. How's that for reducing costs :-P In my opinion, there isn't anything the web interface can do that the email template system couldn't do. On 02.04.2012 14:29, David Conrad wrote: > On Apr 2, 2012, at 3:20 PM, John Brown wrote: >> Are there really fields on the web based that can't be implemented >> via the email system ?? > > You wish to constrain a web-based management system to what can be > accommodated via email? > > Again: Maintaining backwards compatibility can be expensive and quite > constraining. It may be that the advantages of maintaining > compatibility with email outweigh the disadvantages, but this would > seem to be contrary to the way the rest of the Internet industry is > going. > > Regards, > -drc > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From john at citylinkfiber.com Mon Apr 2 15:41:28 2012 From: john at citylinkfiber.com (John Brown) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 19:41:28 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <4F79FE52.1080506@ykwc.com> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com><4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <201204021413.51776.lesmith@ecsis.net> <3D0A7EC0BE94F044AD33F678EB8CB9A808F63A04@MCLEXE01.us.primus> <4F79FE52.1080506@ykwc.com> Message-ID: Templates don't require a web browser. I've watched hardware vendors move away from CLI to Web based config. It sucks for many reasons. Web looks nicer but doesn't always work when you need it to. Email templates allow for a Fire and forget. Web template (via api, curl, etc) requires that the server be reachable and able to process in realtime. eMail template can be generated, sent to the SMTP server and then handled. If ARIN's system isn't able to process, that's ok, the email is QUEUED, either a secondary MX in the "inbox". Meanwhile the human can go home and know that the job is submitted, save lost email in transit. If the request requires a change, you can easily edit the email template and re-submit. Not so with dynamic / live web interface. ARIN should provide multiple I/O paths. > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss- > bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chris Cappuccio > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:30 PM > To: Robert Marder > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates > > On 04/02/12 12:24, Robert Marder wrote: > > I agree as well. > > > > Templates are easier to fill out and it's nice to have a convenient > > log of all my requests. > Most of the cases made here for templates seem like lame excuses. The web > interface could do all of these things and do them better than your e-mail > client. What do you think the money that you pay to ARIN goes for? > > The real reason would be that folks who do lots of small/frequent updates > have to do them by hand instead of doing them on the web. But the web > interface is supposed to accommodate that as well. We're talking about > dumping text editors and SMTP for HTTP forms which can be handled > automatically as well. But the people who need this functionality have > probably already figured out how to get it with ARIN. > > Chris > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From john at citylinkfiber.com Mon Apr 2 15:42:36 2012 From: john at citylinkfiber.com (John Brown) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 19:42:36 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <80ab0a216153836ee2937127a5e65fb4@robertmarder.com> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <88ECF922-844F-4B68-807D-4627D2B394C6@psc.edu> <1D04EF16-2ABB-4418-BAF3-5655040B9E6F@cloudflare.com> <80ab0a216153836ee2937127a5e65fb4@robertmarder.com> Message-ID: Web cant QUEUE the request and process when server is less busy or out of maint windo. Email template can be submitted and thus QUEUED without requiring the human to wait. > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss- > bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Robert Marder > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:39 PM > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates > > Again: can you come up with any example of something that the web > interface can/could do that couldn't be done via email templates? > > For all we know ARIN's web interface may just be a frontend to the email > template system. How's that for reducing costs :-P > > In my opinion, there isn't anything the web interface can do that the email > template system couldn't do. > > On 02.04.2012 14:29, David Conrad wrote: > > On Apr 2, 2012, at 3:20 PM, John Brown wrote: > >> Are there really fields on the web based that can't be implemented > >> via the email system ?? > > > > You wish to constrain a web-based management system to what can be > > accommodated via email? > > > > Again: Maintaining backwards compatibility can be expensive and quite > > constraining. It may be that the advantages of maintaining > > compatibility with email outweigh the disadvantages, but this would > > seem to be contrary to the way the rest of the Internet industry is > > going. > > > > Regards, > > -drc > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ARIN-Discuss > > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > > Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From ram at robertmarder.com Mon Apr 2 15:48:09 2012 From: ram at robertmarder.com (Robert Marder) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 14:48:09 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com><4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <201204021413.51776.lesmith@ecsis.net> <3D0A7EC0BE94F044AD33F678EB8CB9A808F63A04@MCLEXE01.us.primus> <4F79FE52.1080506@ykwc.com> Message-ID: This is another very good reason. Just take a look at ARIN's recent maintenance: email templates were queued, the web interface and the REST API were both completely down. It's simply much easier and more reliable to automate email template submissions than deal with the web interface or web api. On 02.04.2012 14:41, John Brown wrote: > Templates don't require a web browser. > I've watched hardware vendors move away from CLI to Web based config. > It sucks for many reasons. Web looks nicer but doesn't always work > when you need it to. > > > Email templates allow for a Fire and forget. > Web template (via api, curl, etc) requires that the server be > reachable and able to process in realtime. > > eMail template can be generated, sent to the SMTP server and then > handled. > If ARIN's system isn't able to process, that's ok, the email is > QUEUED, either a secondary MX in the "inbox". > > Meanwhile the human can go home and know that the job is submitted, > save lost email in transit. > > If the request requires a change, you can easily edit the email > template and re-submit. Not so with dynamic / live web interface. > > > ARIN should provide multiple I/O paths. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss- >> bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chris Cappuccio >> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:30 PM >> To: Robert Marder >> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net >> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request >> Templates >> >> On 04/02/12 12:24, Robert Marder wrote: >> > I agree as well. >> > >> > Templates are easier to fill out and it's nice to have a >> convenient >> > log of all my requests. >> Most of the cases made here for templates seem like lame excuses. >> The web >> interface could do all of these things and do them better than your >> e-mail >> client. What do you think the money that you pay to ARIN goes for? >> >> The real reason would be that folks who do lots of small/frequent >> updates >> have to do them by hand instead of doing them on the web. But the >> web >> interface is supposed to accommodate that as well. We're talking >> about >> dumping text editors and SMTP for HTTP forms which can be handled >> automatically as well. But the people who need this functionality >> have >> probably already figured out how to get it with ARIN. >> >> Chris >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the >> ARIN >> Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From blake at icglink.com Mon Apr 2 15:51:11 2012 From: blake at icglink.com (Blake A. Dunlap) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 19:51:11 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com><4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <201204021413.51776.lesmith@ecsis.net> <3D0A7EC0BE94F044AD33F678EB8CB9A808F63A04@MCLEXE01.us.primus> <4F79FE52.1080506@ykwc.com> Message-ID: <2B65250184F8A6429162F966835DEAEC2974E756@exch01.ad.icglink.net> This sums up my feelings on the matter as well. The restful complexity and effort required is atrocious compared to simple email templates. -Blake -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Robert Marder Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 14:48 To: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates This is another very good reason. Just take a look at ARIN's recent maintenance: email templates were queued, the web interface and the REST API were both completely down. It's simply much easier and more reliable to automate email template submissions than deal with the web interface or web api. On 02.04.2012 14:41, John Brown wrote: > Templates don't require a web browser. > I've watched hardware vendors move away from CLI to Web based config. > It sucks for many reasons. Web looks nicer but doesn't always work > when you need it to. > > > Email templates allow for a Fire and forget. > Web template (via api, curl, etc) requires that the server be > reachable and able to process in realtime. > > eMail template can be generated, sent to the SMTP server and then > handled. > If ARIN's system isn't able to process, that's ok, the email is > QUEUED, either a secondary MX in the "inbox". > > Meanwhile the human can go home and know that the job is submitted, > save lost email in transit. > > If the request requires a change, you can easily edit the email > template and re-submit. Not so with dynamic / live web interface. > > > ARIN should provide multiple I/O paths. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss- >> bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chris Cappuccio >> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:30 PM >> To: Robert Marder >> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net >> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request >> Templates >> >> On 04/02/12 12:24, Robert Marder wrote: >> > I agree as well. >> > >> > Templates are easier to fill out and it's nice to have a >> convenient >> > log of all my requests. >> Most of the cases made here for templates seem like lame excuses. >> The web >> interface could do all of these things and do them better than your >> e-mail client. What do you think the money that you pay to ARIN goes >> for? >> >> The real reason would be that folks who do lots of small/frequent >> updates have to do them by hand instead of doing them on the web. But >> the web interface is supposed to accommodate that as well. We're >> talking about dumping text editors and SMTP for HTTP forms which can >> be handled automatically as well. But the people who need this >> functionality have probably already figured out how to get it with >> ARIN. >> >> Chris >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN >> Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From drechsau at iphouse.net Mon Apr 2 15:51:42 2012 From: drechsau at iphouse.net (Mike Horwath) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 14:51:42 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <201204021413.51776.lesmith@ecsis.net> <3D0A7EC0BE94F044AD33F678EB8CB9A808F63A04@MCLEXE01.us.primus> <4F79FE52.1080506@ykwc.com> Message-ID: <20120402195142.GB48156@iphouse.net> On Mon, Apr 02, 2012 at 02:48:09PM -0500, Robert Marder wrote: > Just take a look at ARIN's recent maintenance: email templates were > queued, the web interface and the REST API were both completely > down. > > It's simply much easier and more reliable to automate email template > submissions than deal with the web interface or web api. Preach on brothers! -- Mike Horwath ipHouse - Welcome home! drechsau at iphouse.net The universe is an island, surrounded by whatever it is that surrounds universes. - Berkeley Fortune From Timothy.S.Morizot at irs.gov Mon Apr 2 15:52:01 2012 From: Timothy.S.Morizot at irs.gov (Morizot Timothy S) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 19:52:01 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <80ab0a216153836ee2937127a5e65fb4@robertmarder.com> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <88ECF922-844F-4B68-807D-4627D2B394C6@psc.edu> <1D04EF16-2ABB-4418-BAF3-5655040B9E6F@cloudflare.com> <80ab0a216153836ee2937127a5e65fb4@robertmarder.com> Message-ID: <968C470DAC25FB419E0159952F28F0C039DA1703@MEM0200CP3XF04.ds.irsnet.gov> My organization isn't an ISP and makes changes infrequently enough that they are done manually whether by email template or via the web interface. So that aspect of it makes little difference to us. However, I can certainly see why those who make frequent changes and have put automated tools in place to make those changes might have an issue. And as someone with a couple of decades of application development experience, I have a hard time with the "expensive" argument in this situation. An email template or a web form are just two different front-end interfaces. You might need a different parser for each, but once the resource request is parsed the code handling the actual request processing should be the same for both front-ends. Even if the web front-end had additional options, those would just be additional requests to process and wouldn't change the ones shared with the email templates. I guess I don't see why a system that accepts requests through two (or more) front-end interfaces should be hard or expensive to maintain -- especially when the range of available requests is relatively limited, as it is with ARIN. On 02.04.2012 14:29, David Conrad wrote: > On Apr 2, 2012, at 3:20 PM, John Brown wrote: >> Are there really fields on the web based that can't be implemented >> via the email system ?? > > You wish to constrain a web-based management system to what can be > accommodated via email? > > Again: Maintaining backwards compatibility can be expensive and quite > constraining. It may be that the advantages of maintaining > compatibility with email outweigh the disadvantages, but this would > seem to be contrary to the way the rest of the Internet industry is > going. From alec at ionity.com Mon Apr 2 15:52:23 2012 From: alec at ionity.com (Alec Ginsberg) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 15:52:23 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <201204021413.51776.lesmith@ecsis.net> <3D0A7EC0BE94F044AD33F678EB8CB9A808F63A04@MCLEXE01.us.primus> <4F79FE52.1080506@ykwc.com> Message-ID: Once again... All of these reasons are simply illustrating problems that could be fixed. For example a proper HA infrastructure that is architected properly. So for all the email template fans. Would you be ok if it was an XML template? Sent from my iPhone On Apr 2, 2012, at 2:49 PM, "Robert Marder" wrote: > This is another very good reason. > > Just take a look at ARIN's recent maintenance: email templates were > queued, the web interface and the REST API were both completely down. > > It's simply much easier and more reliable to automate email template > submissions than deal with the web interface or web api. > > On 02.04.2012 14:41, John Brown wrote: >> Templates don't require a web browser. >> I've watched hardware vendors move away from CLI to Web based config. >> It sucks for many reasons. Web looks nicer but doesn't always work >> when you need it to. >> >> >> Email templates allow for a Fire and forget. >> Web template (via api, curl, etc) requires that the server be >> reachable and able to process in realtime. >> >> eMail template can be generated, sent to the SMTP server and then >> handled. >> If ARIN's system isn't able to process, that's ok, the email is >> QUEUED, either a secondary MX in the "inbox". >> >> Meanwhile the human can go home and know that the job is submitted, >> save lost email in transit. >> >> If the request requires a change, you can easily edit the email >> template and re-submit. Not so with dynamic / live web interface. >> >> >> ARIN should provide multiple I/O paths. >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss- >>> bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chris Cappuccio >>> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:30 PM >>> To: Robert Marder >>> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request >>> Templates >>> >>> On 04/02/12 12:24, Robert Marder wrote: >>>> I agree as well. >>>> >>>> Templates are easier to fill out and it's nice to have a >>> convenient >>>> log of all my requests. >>> Most of the cases made here for templates seem like lame excuses. >>> The web >>> interface could do all of these things and do them better than your >>> e-mail >>> client. What do you think the money that you pay to ARIN goes for? >>> >>> The real reason would be that folks who do lots of small/frequent >>> updates >>> have to do them by hand instead of doing them on the web. But the >>> web >>> interface is supposed to accommodate that as well. We're talking >>> about >>> dumping text editors and SMTP for HTTP forms which can be handled >>> automatically as well. But the people who need this functionality >>> have >>> probably already figured out how to get it with ARIN. >>> >>> Chris >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARIN-Discuss >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the >>> ARIN >>> Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From pamars at locl.net Mon Apr 2 15:53:40 2012 From: pamars at locl.net (P A Marshall - Unix/Network administrator) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 14:53:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> from "Owen DeLong" at Apr 02, 2012 11:27:57 AM Message-ID: <20120402195342.EFCA417507E@lists.arin.net> I would also like to see templates retained. Al Marshall -- Owen DeLong writes: > > A while back, ARIN stopped accepting email templates for resource requests. > > I believe in the discussions at members meetings prior to this, we were assured that the addition of a web interface would not remove the ability to use templates and I, for one, find templates to be much easier and more convenient than a web interface (especially the current state of ARIN on-line). > > Suggestion 2011.21 was submitted as an effort to address this. It is my understanding that 2011.21 has not received any support from the membership. If any of you are interested in having template functionality restored, ARIN needs to know that. If not, likely this suggestion is soon to be closed without any action and templates will forever fade into history. > > Owen > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > -- Al Marshall almarshall at acm.org (260) 665-5638 Locl-Net, Inc. pamars at locl.net As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. Justice William O. Douglas From alec at ionity.com Mon Apr 2 15:57:29 2012 From: alec at ionity.com (Alec Ginsberg) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 15:57:29 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <968C470DAC25FB419E0159952F28F0C039DA1703@MEM0200CP3XF04.ds.irsnet.gov> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <88ECF922-844F-4B68-807D-4627D2B394C6@psc.edu> <1D04EF16-2ABB-4418-BAF3-5655040B9E6F@cloudflare.com> <80ab0a216153836ee2937127a5e65fb4@robertmarder.com> <968C470DAC25FB419E0159952F28F0C039DA1703@MEM0200CP3XF04.ds.irsnet.gov> Message-ID: <9394920F-1AA9-4F83-9D45-027DF4559264@ionity.com> Exactly. ServiceMix would be great here. One backend system.. Pretty front end web ui. Email, jms. Any web service choice. One common XML payload across the system keeps it simple and easy. Develop in days. Shoot would do it at no charge just to make all happy ;-) Sent from my iPhone On Apr 2, 2012, at 2:54 PM, "Morizot Timothy S" wrote: > My organization isn't an ISP and makes changes infrequently enough that they are done manually whether by email template or via the web interface. So that aspect of it makes little difference to us. However, I can certainly see why those who make frequent changes and have put automated tools in place to make those changes might have an issue. > > And as someone with a couple of decades of application development experience, I have a hard time with the "expensive" argument in this situation. An email template or a web form are just two different front-end interfaces. You might need a different parser for each, but once the resource request is parsed the code handling the actual request processing should be the same for both front-ends. Even if the web front-end had additional options, those would just be additional requests to process and wouldn't change the ones shared with the email templates. > > I guess I don't see why a system that accepts requests through two (or more) front-end interfaces should be hard or expensive to maintain -- especially when the range of available requests is relatively limited, as it is with ARIN. > > On 02.04.2012 14:29, David Conrad wrote: >> On Apr 2, 2012, at 3:20 PM, John Brown wrote: >>> Are there really fields on the web based that can't be implemented >>> via the email system ?? >> >> You wish to constrain a web-based management system to what can be >> accommodated via email? >> >> Again: Maintaining backwards compatibility can be expensive and quite >> constraining. It may be that the advantages of maintaining >> compatibility with email outweigh the disadvantages, but this would >> seem to be contrary to the way the rest of the Internet industry is >> going. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From jcurran at arin.net Mon Apr 2 16:01:13 2012 From: jcurran at arin.net (John Curran) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 20:01:13 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method (was: Bringing back IP resource Request Templates) In-Reply-To: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> Message-ID: On Apr 2, 2012, at 2:27 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: > A while back, ARIN stopped accepting email templates for resource requests. > > I believe in the discussions at members meetings prior to this, we were assured that the addition of a web interface would not remove the ability to use templates and I, for one, find templates to be much easier and more convenient than a web interface (especially the current state of ARIN on-line). > > Suggestion 2011.21 was submitted as an effort to address this. It is my understanding that 2011.21 has not received any support from the membership. If any of you are interested in having template functionality restored, ARIN needs to know that. If not, likely this suggestion is soon to be closed without any action and templates will forever fade into history. Owen - To be clear, we do accept some mail templates (those which have been modified to contain an API key to secure the request) for many common operations, including Point-of-Contact (POC) and Org changes, delegation of resources, etc. You can see the full list of requests which are supported via email templates here: ARIN decommissioned some extremely old systems which handled the original email templates, as we needed to move to a single consistent database and these systems were not maintainable. As part of moving to the new system (capable of supporting ARIN Online, and RESTful interfaces, etc), we built a backward compatibility interface for select email templates for the most commonly used functions (i.e. SWIP & related tasks) but did not do all requests since that would have been a much larger effort and would have required significant upkeep whenever number resource policy changed. We cannot just "restore" the template functionality; it would instead require a development effort to implement further shims for each type of resource request email template that you want created. I will note that in 2011 we received 3,269 IP requests (for IPv4 and IPv6 resources) and 1,644 ASN requests; i.e. a total of 4,913 requests for new number resources, and the vast majority of these were made via ARIN Online. While we've heard lots of positive feedback on the web-based ARIN Online system and the RESTful interfaces that folks are now using for building automation between their systems and ARIN, we are very interested any improvements that can be made to the registry systems and it is simply a question of prioritization for development and maintenance resources. If there is demand for also having email templates as an ongoing third form of access, then this is definitely something that the ARIN Board needs to be made aware of, as it will permanently increase the ongoing effort for future maintenance of the registry to carry this method for resources requests in addition to the web-based ARIN Online and the RESTful programmatic interfaces to the registry. There hasn't been much discussion of this topic so it is hard to gauge demand, but it is important for everyone to realize that implementing and maintaining the additional access method of template email for all requests (as opposed to just the current subset) will definitely increase our costs (the actual amount will vary based on rate and type of policy changess) and increasing costs is not the direction provided to me by the ARIN Board. I would encourage further discussion on this list and in Vancouver. Thanks for raising this topic! /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN From ram at robertmarder.com Mon Apr 2 16:05:50 2012 From: ram at robertmarder.com (Robert Marder) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 15:05:50 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <201204021413.51776.lesmith@ecsis.net> <3D0A7EC0BE94F044AD33F678EB8CB9A808F63A04@MCLEXE01.us.primus> <4F79FE52.1080506@ykwc.com> Message-ID: > All of these reasons are simply illustrating problems > that could be fixed. For example a proper HA infrastructure that is > architected properly. I would imagine that would cost ARIN significantly more than just retaining email templates - a technology already developed and proven, with inherent HA build in via SMTP, rather than maintaining the expense and complexity of a HA web interface. As far as XML based templates - that seems quite irrelevant to me. value is just as easy/hard to parse as item: value\n Personally, I think the existing santax should be retained, because it works, and it's human and machine readable better than XML is. On 02.04.2012 14:52, Alec Ginsberg wrote: > Once again... All of these reasons are simply illustrating problems > that could be fixed. For example a proper HA infrastructure that is > architected properly. > > So for all the email template fans. Would you be ok if it was an XML > template? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 2, 2012, at 2:49 PM, "Robert Marder" > wrote: > >> This is another very good reason. >> >> Just take a look at ARIN's recent maintenance: email templates were >> queued, the web interface and the REST API were both completely >> down. >> >> It's simply much easier and more reliable to automate email template >> submissions than deal with the web interface or web api. >> >> On 02.04.2012 14:41, John Brown wrote: >>> Templates don't require a web browser. >>> I've watched hardware vendors move away from CLI to Web based >>> config. >>> It sucks for many reasons. Web looks nicer but doesn't always work >>> when you need it to. >>> >>> >>> Email templates allow for a Fire and forget. >>> Web template (via api, curl, etc) requires that the server be >>> reachable and able to process in realtime. >>> >>> eMail template can be generated, sent to the SMTP server and then >>> handled. >>> If ARIN's system isn't able to process, that's ok, the email is >>> QUEUED, either a secondary MX in the "inbox". >>> >>> Meanwhile the human can go home and know that the job is submitted, >>> save lost email in transit. >>> >>> If the request requires a change, you can easily edit the email >>> template and re-submit. Not so with dynamic / live web interface. >>> >>> >>> ARIN should provide multiple I/O paths. >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss- >>>> bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chris Cappuccio >>>> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:30 PM >>>> To: Robert Marder >>>> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request >>>> Templates >>>> >>>> On 04/02/12 12:24, Robert Marder wrote: >>>>> I agree as well. >>>>> >>>>> Templates are easier to fill out and it's nice to have a >>>> convenient >>>>> log of all my requests. >>>> Most of the cases made here for templates seem like lame excuses. >>>> The web >>>> interface could do all of these things and do them better than >>>> your >>>> e-mail >>>> client. What do you think the money that you pay to ARIN goes for? >>>> >>>> The real reason would be that folks who do lots of small/frequent >>>> updates >>>> have to do them by hand instead of doing them on the web. But the >>>> web >>>> interface is supposed to accommodate that as well. We're talking >>>> about >>>> dumping text editors and SMTP for HTTP forms which can be handled >>>> automatically as well. But the people who need this functionality >>>> have >>>> probably already figured out how to get it with ARIN. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARIN-Discuss >>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the >>>> ARIN >>>> Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From astle at lexi.net Mon Apr 2 16:04:24 2012 From: astle at lexi.net (William Astle) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 14:04:24 -0600 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <201204021413.51776.lesmith@ecsis.net> <3D0A7EC0BE94F044AD33F678EB8CB9A808F63A04@MCLEXE01.us.primus> <4F79FE52.1080506@ykwc.com> Message-ID: <4F7A0648.9050802@lexi.net> On 12-04-02 01:52 PM, Alec Ginsberg wrote: > Once again... All of these reasons are simply illustrating problems that could be fixed. For example a proper HA infrastructure that is architected properly. A proper HA infrastructure does not help if the internet between me and that HA infrastructure is borked. Or my own internet connection is borked. In both those cases, email will queue and deliver when the borkage is resolved. With web/rest interface, I have to manage the queuing in my application (if I need it) and odds are I'm going to get it more wrong than my mail server does because the queuing aspect will be tested very infrequently. > > So for all the email template fans. Would you be ok if it was an XML template? XML templates just carry a lot of baggage beyond the simple text based templates. To handle XML properly, you need to use a full blown XML parsing/manipulating library. Sure, XML can be created without such but in 99 out of 98 cases where I've seen that done, it has been horribly broken on a corner case that was not as rare as the designers thought. (In one case it was done wrong twice, in two different ways.) Obviously parsing/generating text templates can also be done wrong, but the text templates are much easier for a human to parse if need be. -- William Astle Lexicom Ltd. +1.4034541630 From ram at robertmarder.com Mon Apr 2 16:11:55 2012 From: ram at robertmarder.com (Robert Marder) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 15:11:55 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method (was: Bringing back IP resource Request Templates) In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> Message-ID: <91598ff6fa2557737b110ac9e0b524fe@robertmarder.com> Thanks for the clarification John. I would agree that resource request templates can probably go since they are so rare and are a manual process anyway. I think the main concern of people here was the idea that more and more email templates would be removed until everything was web only. As long as SWIP and reassignment templates are maintained I'm happy. On 02.04.2012 15:01, John Curran wrote: > On Apr 2, 2012, at 2:27 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: > >> A while back, ARIN stopped accepting email templates for resource >> requests. >> >> I believe in the discussions at members meetings prior to this, we >> were assured that the addition of a web interface would not remove the >> ability to use templates and I, for one, find templates to be much >> easier and more convenient than a web interface (especially the >> current state of ARIN on-line). >> >> Suggestion 2011.21 was submitted as an effort to address this. It is >> my understanding that 2011.21 has not received any support from the >> membership. If any of you are interested in having template >> functionality restored, ARIN needs to know that. If not, likely this >> suggestion is soon to be closed without any action and templates will >> forever fade into history. > > Owen - > > To be clear, we do accept some mail templates (those which have been > modified to contain an API key to secure the request) for many > common > operations, including Point-of-Contact (POC) and Org changes, > delegation > of resources, etc. You can see the full list of requests which are > supported via email templates here: > > > ARIN decommissioned some extremely old systems which handled the > original > email templates, as we needed to move to a single consistent > database and > these systems were not maintainable. As part of moving to the new > system > (capable of supporting ARIN Online, and RESTful interfaces, etc), we > built > a backward compatibility interface for select email templates for > the most > commonly used functions (i.e. SWIP & related tasks) but did not do > all > requests since that would have been a much larger effort and would > have > required significant upkeep whenever number resource policy changed. > We cannot just "restore" the template functionality; it would > instead > require a development effort to implement further shims for each > type > of resource request email template that you want created. > > I will note that in 2011 we received 3,269 IP requests (for IPv4 and > IPv6 > resources) and 1,644 ASN requests; i.e. a total of 4,913 requests > for new > number resources, and the vast majority of these were made via ARIN > Online. > While we've heard lots of positive feedback on the web-based ARIN > Online > system and the RESTful interfaces that folks are now using for > building > automation between their systems and ARIN, we are very interested > any > improvements that can be made to the registry systems and it is > simply > a question of prioritization for development and maintenance > resources. > > If there is demand for also having email templates as an ongoing > third > form of access, then this is definitely something that the ARIN > Board > needs to be made aware of, as it will permanently increase the > ongoing > effort for future maintenance of the registry to carry this method > for > resources requests in addition to the web-based ARIN Online and the > RESTful programmatic interfaces to the registry. There hasn't been > much discussion of this topic so it is hard to gauge demand, but it > is > important for everyone to realize that implementing and maintaining > the > additional access method of template email for all requests (as > opposed > to just the current subset) will definitely increase our costs (the > actual amount will vary based on rate and type of policy changess) > and > increasing costs is not the direction provided to me by the ARIN > Board. > > I would encourage further discussion on this list and in Vancouver. > > Thanks for raising this topic! > /John > > John Curran > President and CEO > ARIN > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From owen at delong.com Mon Apr 2 16:18:39 2012 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 13:18:39 -0700 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <201204021413.51776.lesmith@ecsis.net> <3D0A7EC0BE94F044AD33F678EB8CB9A808F63A04@MCLEXE01.us.primus> <4F79FE52.1080506@ykwc.com> Message-ID: <165F59C9-C042-4CE5-826E-CD530FC2E5A2@delong.com> Not really. I can prepare and submit an email template BY HAND pretty quickly. It takes much longer to navigate the web process and I don't get the advantage of using my preferred editor in the process. I do number resource applications for several of my consulting clients on a fairly regular basis. When I was doing these with templates, it generally took between 1 and 5 hours less in terms of my labor time for the complete process. Admittedly, templates are only one part of that 1-5 hours. The other part includes the fact that each ticket update is not sent to me in email, but, instead, I get an email notification to go back to ARIN online, log in all over again, navigate to the applicable ticket, eyeball parse the whole list of updates looking for the latest one, then if it requires forwarding to my client for further information or comment, I have to copy it off the web site, paste it into email (which the website seems to be designed to make as difficult as possible), then try and make it legible to my client. All of this takes time that was never necessary when this was handled in email using simple text. Owen On Apr 2, 2012, at 12:52 PM, Alec Ginsberg wrote: > Once again... All of these reasons are simply illustrating problems that could be fixed. For example a proper HA infrastructure that is architected properly. > > So for all the email template fans. Would you be ok if it was an XML template? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 2, 2012, at 2:49 PM, "Robert Marder" wrote: > >> This is another very good reason. >> >> Just take a look at ARIN's recent maintenance: email templates were >> queued, the web interface and the REST API were both completely down. >> >> It's simply much easier and more reliable to automate email template >> submissions than deal with the web interface or web api. >> >> On 02.04.2012 14:41, John Brown wrote: >>> Templates don't require a web browser. >>> I've watched hardware vendors move away from CLI to Web based config. >>> It sucks for many reasons. Web looks nicer but doesn't always work >>> when you need it to. >>> >>> >>> Email templates allow for a Fire and forget. >>> Web template (via api, curl, etc) requires that the server be >>> reachable and able to process in realtime. >>> >>> eMail template can be generated, sent to the SMTP server and then >>> handled. >>> If ARIN's system isn't able to process, that's ok, the email is >>> QUEUED, either a secondary MX in the "inbox". >>> >>> Meanwhile the human can go home and know that the job is submitted, >>> save lost email in transit. >>> >>> If the request requires a change, you can easily edit the email >>> template and re-submit. Not so with dynamic / live web interface. >>> >>> >>> ARIN should provide multiple I/O paths. >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss- >>>> bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chris Cappuccio >>>> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:30 PM >>>> To: Robert Marder >>>> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request >>>> Templates >>>> >>>> On 04/02/12 12:24, Robert Marder wrote: >>>>> I agree as well. >>>>> >>>>> Templates are easier to fill out and it's nice to have a >>>> convenient >>>>> log of all my requests. >>>> Most of the cases made here for templates seem like lame excuses. >>>> The web >>>> interface could do all of these things and do them better than your >>>> e-mail >>>> client. What do you think the money that you pay to ARIN goes for? >>>> >>>> The real reason would be that folks who do lots of small/frequent >>>> updates >>>> have to do them by hand instead of doing them on the web. But the >>>> web >>>> interface is supposed to accommodate that as well. We're talking >>>> about >>>> dumping text editors and SMTP for HTTP forms which can be handled >>>> automatically as well. But the people who need this functionality >>>> have >>>> probably already figured out how to get it with ARIN. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARIN-Discuss >>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the >>>> ARIN >>>> Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From jcurran at arin.net Mon Apr 2 16:24:36 2012 From: jcurran at arin.net (John Curran) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 20:24:36 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <9394920F-1AA9-4F83-9D45-027DF4559264@ionity.com> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <88ECF922-844F-4B68-807D-4627D2B394C6@psc.edu> <1D04EF16-2ABB-4418-BAF3-5655040B9E6F@cloudflare.com> <80ab0a216153836ee2937127a5e65fb4@robertmarder.com> <968C470DAC25FB419E0159952F28F0C039DA1703@MEM0200CP3XF04.ds.irsnet.gov> <9394920F-1AA9-4F83-9D45-027DF4559264@ionity.com> Message-ID: <8F068448-57F1-45D2-AB88-98BCA5271642@corp.arin.net> On Apr 2, 2012, at 3:57 PM, Alec Ginsberg wrote: > One backend system.. Pretty front end web ui. Email, jms. Any web service choice. Robert - Actually, you are describing what we now have - One backend system, with ARIN Online (human web), RESTful (programmatic), and email based interfaces. We don't give any web service choice, but then again, the discussion in this thread is about folks aren't using any programmatic interface... As someone noted, this is exactly why during maintenance each interface behaved as it did: Humans get an message at attempted login, RESTful programs get an error code, and email is queued. It's all one system with three distinct access methods. The email template issue is that we did not reimplement all of the request types in the rebuilt email templates as it would have been significantly more development, and would would increase the maintenance costs of the entire system. We presently need to make sure that policy changes end up in ARIN Online, and then (as quickly as possible) end up in the RESTful interface. Regardless of your enterprise integration approach, you need to arrange for validation of input from each access method, and supporting a third access method of template-based email will mean that any policy changes will require template and template email processing changes. It's actually not conceptually challenging at all, but if expanded to cover all registry request types it would result in a permanent increase in overall maintenance costs. This is certainly an option, but should not be taken lightly since its funded collectively by the entire community. Thanks! /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN From rs at seastrom.com Mon Apr 2 16:25:00 2012 From: rs at seastrom.com (Robert E. Seastrom) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 16:25:00 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: (Alec Ginsberg's message of "Mon, 2 Apr 2012 15:52:23 -0400") References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <201204021413.51776.lesmith@ecsis.net> <3D0A7EC0BE94F044AD33F678EB8CB9A808F63A04@MCLEXE01.us.primus> <4F79FE52.1080506@ykwc.com> Message-ID: <867gxxdgpv.fsf@seastrom.com> Alec, since you seem to want XML would you be OK with accepting a classic style template and turning it into XML on the ARIN end? This seems like a good coding project for a freshman Perl or Python class. (only half joking). Anyway, XML is not human-friendly. One problem I have with web-centric is that it mandates use of a swivel-chair interface (that is, a person who sits in a swivel chair) clicking away to input data. REST bypasses this to some degree, but REG-RWS is poorly publicized compared to WHOIS-RWS. ARIN should do a little more outreach on REG-RWS. Last time I used ARIN Online for real work (TM) was about a year ago. My recollection was that its support for a transaction log once resources had been granted was a little weak. Since many (most?) folks who interact with ARIN request the same sort of resources for similar reasons over and over, the lack of ability to answer "how did we do this last time" is a big failing. Email trails don't have that issue and an email thread can be easily handed over to the new lucky IP number admin. Anyway, +1 on retaining classic templates. I realize that there is a development cost associated with backward compatibility. I consider that money well spent. -r Alec Ginsberg writes: > Once again... All of these reasons are simply illustrating problems that could be fixed. For example a proper HA infrastructure that is architected properly. > > So for all the email template fans. Would you be ok if it was an XML template? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 2, 2012, at 2:49 PM, "Robert Marder" wrote: > >> This is another very good reason. >> >> Just take a look at ARIN's recent maintenance: email templates were >> queued, the web interface and the REST API were both completely down. >> >> It's simply much easier and more reliable to automate email template >> submissions than deal with the web interface or web api. >> >> On 02.04.2012 14:41, John Brown wrote: >>> Templates don't require a web browser. >>> I've watched hardware vendors move away from CLI to Web based config. >>> It sucks for many reasons. Web looks nicer but doesn't always work >>> when you need it to. >>> >>> >>> Email templates allow for a Fire and forget. >>> Web template (via api, curl, etc) requires that the server be >>> reachable and able to process in realtime. >>> >>> eMail template can be generated, sent to the SMTP server and then >>> handled. >>> If ARIN's system isn't able to process, that's ok, the email is >>> QUEUED, either a secondary MX in the "inbox". >>> >>> Meanwhile the human can go home and know that the job is submitted, >>> save lost email in transit. >>> >>> If the request requires a change, you can easily edit the email >>> template and re-submit. Not so with dynamic / live web interface. >>> >>> >>> ARIN should provide multiple I/O paths. >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss- >>>> bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chris Cappuccio >>>> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:30 PM >>>> To: Robert Marder >>>> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request >>>> Templates >>>> >>>> On 04/02/12 12:24, Robert Marder wrote: >>>>> I agree as well. >>>>> >>>>> Templates are easier to fill out and it's nice to have a >>>> convenient >>>>> log of all my requests. >>>> Most of the cases made here for templates seem like lame excuses. >>>> The web >>>> interface could do all of these things and do them better than your >>>> e-mail >>>> client. What do you think the money that you pay to ARIN goes for? >>>> >>>> The real reason would be that folks who do lots of small/frequent >>>> updates >>>> have to do them by hand instead of doing them on the web. But the >>>> web >>>> interface is supposed to accommodate that as well. We're talking >>>> about >>>> dumping text editors and SMTP for HTTP forms which can be handled >>>> automatically as well. But the people who need this functionality >>>> have >>>> probably already figured out how to get it with ARIN. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARIN-Discuss >>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the >>>> ARIN >>>> Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From jcurran at arin.net Mon Apr 2 16:55:15 2012 From: jcurran at arin.net (John Curran) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 20:55:15 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <968C470DAC25FB419E0159952F28F0C039DA1703@MEM0200CP3XF04.ds.irsnet.gov> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <88ECF922-844F-4B68-807D-4627D2B394C6@psc.edu> <1D04EF16-2ABB-4418-BAF3-5655040B9E6F@cloudflare.com> <80ab0a216153836ee2937127a5e65fb4@robertmarder.com> <968C470DAC25FB419E0159952F28F0C039DA1703@MEM0200CP3XF04.ds.irsnet.gov> Message-ID: <697F596D-788E-4956-B177-1F79D42129D4@corp.arin.net> On Apr 2, 2012, at 3:52 PM, Morizot Timothy S wrote: > My organization isn't an ISP and makes changes infrequently enough that they are done manually whether by email template or via the web interface. So that aspect of it makes little difference to us. However, I can certainly see why those who make frequent changes and have put automated tools in place to make those changes might have an issue. > > And as someone with a couple of decades of application development experience, I have a hard time with the "expensive" argument in this situation. An email template or a web form are just two different front-end interfaces. You might need a different parser for each, but once the resource request is parsed the code handling the actual request processing should be the same for both front-ends. Even if the web front-end had additional options, those would just be additional requests to process and wouldn't change the ones shared with the email templates. > > I guess I don't see why a system that accepts requests through two (or more) front-end interfaces should be hard or expensive to maintain -- especially when the range of available requests is relatively limited, as it is with ARIN. We are maintaining two interfaces at present (ARIN Online for humans, RESTful for programmatic access) We can add more programmatic interfaces (such as xml, java, etc.) or additional semi-programmatic ones (email templates, telnet or ftp interfaces, rje over tcp, ... :-) In any case, the maintenance expense (for an organization of our size) is increases with each access method because the front-end parsers need to be updated with policy changes. If number resource policy changes less over time (e.g. with increasing movement to IPv6) then it is not as significant, but that particular timeline remains uncertain. FYI, /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN From dk at intuix.com Mon Apr 2 17:04:14 2012 From: dk at intuix.com (Dmitry Kohmanyuk) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 00:04:14 +0300 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> Message-ID: <3B9AEAB0-A7EA-451A-B786-A01BA454330C@intuix.com> On Apr 2, 2012, at 9:27 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: > A while back, ARIN stopped accepting email templates for resource requests. > > I believe in the discussions at members meetings prior to this, we were assured that the addition of a web interface would not remove the ability to use templates and I, for one, find templates to be much easier and more convenient than a web interface (especially the current state of ARIN on-line). > > Suggestion 2011.21 was submitted as an effort to address this. It is my understanding that 2011.21 has not received any support from the membership. If any of you are interested in having template functionality restored, ARIN needs to know that. If not, likely this suggestion is soon to be closed without any action and templates will forever fade into history. I support the change --- or, rather, not change -- I want templates to be available. It is needed in cases when ARIN web site is unavailable (outage...); email requests would be queued. I also think that current web functionality is not yet mature to rely on just one mechanism. Training staff may be an issue for larger ISPs. Custom scripts to update records are definitely in use. FInally, there may be cases (like infrastructure blocks) which are just too rare to implement or test in new UX. If the reasoning was to make ARIN request processing easier on staff, we would immediately see X% (X > 50) drop in email requests, and therefore improvement of efficiency, thus giving same benefits. Then, as email requests would be so rare eventually their processing would require just one person - a be non-issue. Just for curiosity, do we have numbers of requests processed (email or web), say, per month? -- dk@ From dk at intuix.com Mon Apr 2 17:14:59 2012 From: dk at intuix.com (Dmitry Kohmanyuk) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 00:14:59 +0300 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <201204021413.51776.lesmith@ecsis.net> <3D0A7EC0BE94F044AD33F678EB8CB9A808F63A04@MCLEXE01.us.primus> <4F79FE52.1080506@ykwc.com> Message-ID: I think it would be good to collect arguments presented into a pro-con table; and i already see things that people are uncomfortable with on both fronts (email: insecure; web: harder to automate). the cost factor have to be brought in, too. -- dk@ On Apr 2, 2012, at 10:52 PM, Alec Ginsberg wrote: > Once again... All of these reasons are simply illustrating problems that could be fixed. For example a proper HA infrastructure that is architected properly. > > So for all the email template fans. Would you be ok if it was an XML template? > > Sent from my iPhone May I ask you which email you would prefer to send from your iPhone, old-style or XML one? -- dk@ From john at citylinkfiber.com Mon Apr 2 18:12:07 2012 From: john at citylinkfiber.com (John Brown) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 22:12:07 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <201204021413.51776.lesmith@ecsis.net> <3D0A7EC0BE94F044AD33F678EB8CB9A808F63A04@MCLEXE01.us.primus> <4F79FE52.1080506@ykwc.com> Message-ID: No XML. > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss- > bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Alec Ginsberg > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:52 PM > To: Robert Marder > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates > > Once again... All of these reasons are simply illustrating problems that could > be fixed. For example a proper HA infrastructure that is architected properly. > > So for all the email template fans. Would you be ok if it was an XML > template? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 2, 2012, at 2:49 PM, "Robert Marder" > wrote: > > > This is another very good reason. > > > > Just take a look at ARIN's recent maintenance: email templates were > > queued, the web interface and the REST API were both completely down. > > > > It's simply much easier and more reliable to automate email template > > submissions than deal with the web interface or web api. > > > > On 02.04.2012 14:41, John Brown wrote: > >> Templates don't require a web browser. > >> I've watched hardware vendors move away from CLI to Web based > config. > >> It sucks for many reasons. Web looks nicer but doesn't always work > >> when you need it to. > >> > >> > >> Email templates allow for a Fire and forget. > >> Web template (via api, curl, etc) requires that the server be > >> reachable and able to process in realtime. > >> > >> eMail template can be generated, sent to the SMTP server and then > >> handled. > >> If ARIN's system isn't able to process, that's ok, the email is > >> QUEUED, either a secondary MX in the "inbox". > >> > >> Meanwhile the human can go home and know that the job is submitted, > >> save lost email in transit. > >> > >> If the request requires a change, you can easily edit the email > >> template and re-submit. Not so with dynamic / live web interface. > >> > >> > >> ARIN should provide multiple I/O paths. > >> > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss- > >>> bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chris Cappuccio > >>> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:30 PM > >>> To: Robert Marder > >>> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request > >>> Templates > >>> > >>> On 04/02/12 12:24, Robert Marder wrote: > >>>> I agree as well. > >>>> > >>>> Templates are easier to fill out and it's nice to have a > >>> convenient > >>>> log of all my requests. > >>> Most of the cases made here for templates seem like lame excuses. > >>> The web > >>> interface could do all of these things and do them better than your > >>> e-mail client. What do you think the money that you pay to ARIN goes > >>> for? > >>> > >>> The real reason would be that folks who do lots of small/frequent > >>> updates have to do them by hand instead of doing them on the web. > >>> But the web interface is supposed to accommodate that as well. We're > >>> talking about dumping text editors and SMTP for HTTP forms which can > >>> be handled automatically as well. But the people who need this > >>> functionality have probably already figured out how to get it with > >>> ARIN. > >>> > >>> Chris > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> ARIN-Discuss > >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the > >>> ARIN > >>> Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ARIN-Discuss > > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From Jawaid.Bazyar at foreThought.net Mon Apr 2 18:15:33 2012 From: Jawaid.Bazyar at foreThought.net (Jawaid Bazyar) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2012 16:15:33 -0600 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <201204021413.51776.lesmith@ecsis.net> <3D0A7EC0BE94F044AD33F678EB8CB9A808F63A04@MCLEXE01.us.primus> <4F79FE52.1080506@ykwc.com> Message-ID: <4F7A2505.2060608@foreThought.net> My vote is web, and XML RPC. On 04/02/2012 04:12 PM, John Brown wrote: > No XML. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss- >> bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Alec Ginsberg >> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:52 PM >> To: Robert Marder >> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net >> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates >> >> Once again... All of these reasons are simply illustrating problems that could >> be fixed. For example a proper HA infrastructure that is architected properly. >> >> So for all the email template fans. Would you be ok if it was an XML >> template? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Apr 2, 2012, at 2:49 PM, "Robert Marder" >> wrote: >> >>> This is another very good reason. >>> >>> Just take a look at ARIN's recent maintenance: email templates were >>> queued, the web interface and the REST API were both completely down. >>> >>> It's simply much easier and more reliable to automate email template >>> submissions than deal with the web interface or web api. >>> >>> On 02.04.2012 14:41, John Brown wrote: >>>> Templates don't require a web browser. >>>> I've watched hardware vendors move away from CLI to Web based >> config. >>>> It sucks for many reasons. Web looks nicer but doesn't always work >>>> when you need it to. >>>> >>>> >>>> Email templates allow for a Fire and forget. >>>> Web template (via api, curl, etc) requires that the server be >>>> reachable and able to process in realtime. >>>> >>>> eMail template can be generated, sent to the SMTP server and then >>>> handled. >>>> If ARIN's system isn't able to process, that's ok, the email is >>>> QUEUED, either a secondary MX in the "inbox". >>>> >>>> Meanwhile the human can go home and know that the job is submitted, >>>> save lost email in transit. >>>> >>>> If the request requires a change, you can easily edit the email >>>> template and re-submit. Not so with dynamic / live web interface. >>>> >>>> >>>> ARIN should provide multiple I/O paths. >>>> >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss- >>>>> bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chris Cappuccio >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:30 PM >>>>> To: Robert Marder >>>>> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net >>>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request >>>>> Templates >>>>> >>>>> On 04/02/12 12:24, Robert Marder wrote: >>>>>> I agree as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Templates are easier to fill out and it's nice to have a >>>>> convenient >>>>>> log of all my requests. >>>>> Most of the cases made here for templates seem like lame excuses. >>>>> The web >>>>> interface could do all of these things and do them better than your >>>>> e-mail client. What do you think the money that you pay to ARIN goes >>>>> for? >>>>> >>>>> The real reason would be that folks who do lots of small/frequent >>>>> updates have to do them by hand instead of doing them on the web. >>>>> But the web interface is supposed to accommodate that as well. We're >>>>> talking about dumping text editors and SMTP for HTTP forms which can >>>>> be handled automatically as well. But the people who need this >>>>> functionality have probably already figured out how to get it with >>>>> ARIN. >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> ARIN-Discuss >>>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>> ARIN >>>>> Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>>>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARIN-Discuss >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. -- Jawaid Bazyar President ph 303.815.1814 fax 303.815.1001 Jawaid.Bazyar at foreThought.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: logo.png Type: image/png Size: 6512 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lsawyer at gci.com Mon Apr 2 18:13:44 2012 From: lsawyer at gci.com (Leif Sawyer) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 14:13:44 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <4F79F2C4.2030508@indiana.edu> <201204021413.51776.lesmith@ecsis.net> <3D0A7EC0BE94F044AD33F678EB8CB9A808F63A04@MCLEXE01.us.primus> <4F79FE52.1080506@ykwc.com> Message-ID: <18B2C6E38A3A324986B392B2D18ABC5101D580ED10@fnb1mbx01.gci.com> Well, the "insecure" part of email is easily handled by importing a PGP key into your web profile, and then signing/encrypting outgoing emails with ARIN's public key (one might need to be generated) to the provisioning server. > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Dmitry Kohmanyuk > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:15 PM > To: Alec Ginsberg > Cc: ARIN discuss list List > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request > Templates > > I think it would be good to collect arguments presented into > a pro-con table; and i already see things that people > are uncomfortable with on both fronts (email: insecure; web: > harder to automate). the cost factor have to be brought in, too. > > -- dk@ > > On Apr 2, 2012, at 10:52 PM, Alec Ginsberg wrote: > > > Once again... All of these reasons are simply illustrating > problems that could be fixed. For example a proper HA > infrastructure that is architected properly. > > > > So for all the email template fans. Would you be ok if it > was an XML template? > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > May I ask you which email you would prefer to send from your > iPhone, old-style or XML one? > > -- dk@ > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > From jesse at la-broadband.com Mon Apr 2 18:28:25 2012 From: jesse at la-broadband.com (Jesse D. Geddis) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 22:28:25 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <18B2C6E38A3A324986B392B2D18ABC5101D580ED10@fnb1mbx01.gci.com> Message-ID: I think PGP is a pain in the butt, honestly, and so 1990's :D Using a certificate from verisign or whoever makes more sense. The email portion has always been prone to subversion -- Jesse D. Geddis LA Broadband LLC AS 16602 On 4/2/12 3:13 PM, "Leif Sawyer" wrote: >Well, the "insecure" part of email is easily handled by importing a PGP >key >into your web profile, and then signing/encrypting outgoing emails >with ARIN's public key (one might need to be generated) to the >provisioning server. > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Dmitry Kohmanyuk >> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:15 PM >> To: Alec Ginsberg >> Cc: ARIN discuss list List >> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request >> Templates >> >> I think it would be good to collect arguments presented into >> a pro-con table; and i already see things that people >> are uncomfortable with on both fronts (email: insecure; web: >> harder to automate). the cost factor have to be brought in, too. >> >> -- dk@ >> >> On Apr 2, 2012, at 10:52 PM, Alec Ginsberg wrote: >> >> > Once again... All of these reasons are simply illustrating >> problems that could be fixed. For example a proper HA >> infrastructure that is architected properly. >> > >> > So for all the email template fans. Would you be ok if it >> was an XML template? >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> >> May I ask you which email you would prefer to send from your >> iPhone, old-style or XML one? >> >> -- dk@ >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >> >_______________________________________________ >ARIN-Discuss >You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From owen at delong.com Mon Apr 2 18:39:20 2012 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 15:39:20 -0700 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method (was: Bringing back IP resource Request Templates) In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> Message-ID: On Apr 2, 2012, at 1:01 PM, John Curran wrote: > On Apr 2, 2012, at 2:27 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: > >> A while back, ARIN stopped accepting email templates for resource requests. >> >> I believe in the discussions at members meetings prior to this, we were assured that the addition of a web interface would not remove the ability to use templates and I, for one, find templates to be much easier and more convenient than a web interface (especially the current state of ARIN on-line). >> >> Suggestion 2011.21 was submitted as an effort to address this. It is my understanding that 2011.21 has not received any support from the membership. If any of you are interested in having template functionality restored, ARIN needs to know that. If not, likely this suggestion is soon to be closed without any action and templates will forever fade into history. > > Owen - > > To be clear, we do accept some mail templates (those which have been > modified to contain an API key to secure the request) for many common > operations, including Point-of-Contact (POC) and Org changes, delegation > of resources, etc. You can see the full list of requests which are > supported via email templates here: > > I'm well aware of this. My statement above was specific to "resource requests" which are among those that have not been so modified and are no longer accepted. > I will note that in 2011 we received 3,269 IP requests (for IPv4 and IPv6 > resources) and 1,644 ASN requests; i.e. a total of 4,913 requests for new > number resources, and the vast majority of these were made via ARIN Online. > While we've heard lots of positive feedback on the web-based ARIN Online > system and the RESTful interfaces that folks are now using for building > automation between their systems and ARIN, we are very interested any > improvements that can be made to the registry systems and it is simply > a question of prioritization for development and maintenance resources. This was understood prior to sending my message. > If there is demand for also having email templates as an ongoing third > form of access, then this is definitely something that the ARIN Board > needs to be made aware of, as it will permanently increase the ongoing > effort for future maintenance of the registry to carry this method for > resources requests in addition to the web-based ARIN Online and the > RESTful programmatic interfaces to the registry. There hasn't been > much discussion of this topic so it is hard to gauge demand, but it is > important for everyone to realize that implementing and maintaining the > additional access method of template email for all requests (as opposed > to just the current subset) will definitely increase our costs (the > actual amount will vary based on rate and type of policy changess) and > increasing costs is not the direction provided to me by the ARIN Board. Hence my effort to start the discussion here which I would say received substantial response, most of which was supportive. > I would encourage further discussion on this list and in Vancouver. > Unless indicated otherwise, I'll take this as an indication that ARIN is now planning to hold suggestion 2011.21 open for the time being. > Thanks for raising this topic! > /John > You're most welcome. Owen From alec at ionity.com Mon Apr 2 19:00:28 2012 From: alec at ionity.com (Alec Ginsberg) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 19:00:28 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <697F596D-788E-4956-B177-1F79D42129D4@corp.arin.net> Message-ID: Only a single interface should be maintained. Something such as ServiceMix where you create a backend service. This service can listen on SMTP, JMS, or any Web Service protocol you would like. You submit the XML to this service. The web front end would submit the same data structure, just as it were using the XML service as well. This way there is one unified development effort for the entire thing. You could then, if you wanted write a simple parser so that value4 value3 Is processed the same as attrib1: value4 attrib2: value3 (thus users can continue to use their template, or XML) and ARIN only needs to maintain one codebase. Very simple. Hence the web template can work, with zero additional development effort. On 4/2/12 3:55 PM, "John Curran" wrote: >On Apr 2, 2012, at 3:52 PM, Morizot Timothy S wrote: > >> My organization isn't an ISP and makes changes infrequently enough that >>they are done manually whether by email template or via the web >>interface. So that aspect of it makes little difference to us. However, >>I can certainly see why those who make frequent changes and have put >>automated tools in place to make those changes might have an issue. >> >> And as someone with a couple of decades of application development >>experience, I have a hard time with the "expensive" argument in this >>situation. An email template or a web form are just two different >>front-end interfaces. You might need a different parser for each, but >>once the resource request is parsed the code handling the actual request >>processing should be the same for both front-ends. Even if the web >>front-end had additional options, those would just be additional >>requests to process and wouldn't change the ones shared with the email >>templates. >> >> I guess I don't see why a system that accepts requests through two (or >>more) front-end interfaces should be hard or expensive to maintain -- >>especially when the range of available requests is relatively limited, >>as it is with ARIN. > >We are maintaining two interfaces at present (ARIN Online for humans, >RESTful for programmatic access) We can add more programmatic >interfaces >(such as xml, java, etc.) or additional semi-programmatic ones (email >templates, telnet or ftp interfaces, rje over tcp, ... :-) > >In any case, the maintenance expense (for an organization of our size) is >increases with each access method because the front-end parsers need to >be >updated with policy changes. If number resource policy changes less over >time (e.g. with increasing movement to IPv6) then it is not as >significant, >but that particular timeline remains uncertain. > >FYI, >/John > >John Curran >President and CEO >ARIN > >_______________________________________________ >ARIN-Discuss >You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From vpannell at geostarcom.com Mon Apr 2 20:04:27 2012 From: vpannell at geostarcom.com (Veronica Pannell) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 14:04:27 -1000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Fwd: Bringing back IP resource Request Templates References: Message-ID: <27C737AB-83A6-481D-A459-EBC72277C3CE@geostarcom.com> Please remove my email address vpannell at geostarcom.com from this mailing list ASAP. I do not want all of these emails Thank you & Have a Wonderful Day!!! Veronica Pannell (330) 752-4318 (P) (866) 985-1065 (F) Begin forwarded message: > From: Dmitry Kohmanyuk > Date: April 2, 2012 11:14:59 AM HST > To: Alec Ginsberg > Cc: ARIN discuss list List > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates > > I think it would be good to collect arguments presented into a pro-con table; and i already see things that people > are uncomfortable with on both fronts (email: insecure; web: harder to automate). the cost factor have to be brought in, too. > > -- dk@ > > On Apr 2, 2012, at 10:52 PM, Alec Ginsberg wrote: > >> Once again... All of these reasons are simply illustrating problems that could be fixed. For example a proper HA infrastructure that is architected properly. >> >> So for all the email template fans. Would you be ok if it was an XML template? >> >> Sent from my iPhone > > May I ask you which email you would prefer to send from your iPhone, old-style or XML one? > > -- dk@ > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jcurran at arin.net Mon Apr 2 21:04:29 2012 From: jcurran at arin.net (John Curran) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 01:04:29 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method (was: Bringing back IP resource Request Templates) In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> Message-ID: On Apr 2, 2012, at 6:39 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: > I'm well aware of this. My statement above was specific to "resource requests" which > are among those that have not been so modified and are no longer accepted. > ... > Hence my effort to start the discussion here which I would say received > substantial response, most of which was supportive. The responses have covered quite a bit of ground, but do I agree that one response (RS) showed a clear understanding that the question being considered is specifically whether the development of email templates for remaining request types was worth the resulting cost to the organization (both onetime and ongoing), and he indicated that it is money well spent. It is hard to estimate the overall effort involved, but note that we have a very full 2012 development schedule already; it includes both hosted and delegated RPKI work, billing integration, changes to handle IPv4 requests into and post-runout period, and further RESTful interfaces. (The list of planned work, completed work, and still to be prioritized work is all available online here: https://www.arin.net/features/) Recognizing the level of effort necessary (upfront and ongoing) is not clear at this time, it would still be helpful to understand from others if doing this development is more important enough than the other work already planned... >> I would encourage further discussion on this list and in Vancouver. > > Unless indicated otherwise, I'll take this as an indication that ARIN is now > planning to hold suggestion 2011.21 open for the time being. Most certainly, /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN From aaronh at bind.com Tue Apr 3 19:10:03 2012 From: aaronh at bind.com (Aaron Hughes) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 16:10:03 -0700 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN online role accounts for API access / Text update Message-ID: <20120403231003.GF20958@trace.bind.com> All, I've heard way too many mixed messages about individual ARIN Online accounts vs. role based ARIN Online accounts. The text here: https://www.arin.net/public/ [snip] WHO NEEDS AN ACCOUNT? Representatives of organizations that hold ARIN resources or plan to request resources will want to take advantage of ARIN Online. Every individual who manages organization or resource records should create an ARIN Online account using an individual email address. Unlike POC records, ARIN Online accounts cannot use role email addresses, nor should they be shared, or transferred to another person. Individuals can take ARIN Online accounts with them if they move or change jobs because accounts can be unlinked from POC, organization and resource records. [end] claims all users need an account, however, it does not account for tools using the ARIN RESTFul API. I have been telling people it's ok to create role based accounts for their APIKEY and have heard the same from ARIN staff. If that is the case, and I believe it should be, can the text please get updated to reflect that. e.g. "ARIN Online accounts cannot use role email addresses except in the case of an account created for the purpose of connecting via ARIN RESTFul API". Cheers, Aaron -- Aaron Hughes aaronh at bind.com +1-831-824-4161 Key fingerprint = AD 67 37 60 7D 73 C5 B7 33 18 3F 36 C3 1C C6 B8 http://www.bind.com/ From kevinb at thewire.ca Tue Apr 3 20:29:57 2012 From: kevinb at thewire.ca (Kevin Blumberg) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 00:29:57 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method (was: Bringing back IP resource Request Templates) In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> Message-ID: <7E7773B523E82C478734E793E58F69E7694E5FDD@SBS2011.thewireinc.local> I am not in support of adding back this feature. I believe that there is better use for the funds that are allocated to development and would not support raising fee's to support a minority of users who "prefer" one method over another. I believe that improvements to ARIN Online should be looked at especially in the area of securing who can change that data. I would far rather see every ARIN Online member have a two factor authentication key. I would also suggest that the ability to save a draft of a submission be supported. One last note, I do believe that the current email templates that exist, especially the SWIP templates should continue to be supported. Thanks, Kevin Blumberg > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss- > bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of John Curran > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 4:01 PM > To: Owen DeLong > Cc: arin-discuss List > Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access > method (was: Bringing back IP resource Request Templates) > > On Apr 2, 2012, at 2:27 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: > > > A while back, ARIN stopped accepting email templates for resource > requests. > > > > I believe in the discussions at members meetings prior to this, we were > assured that the addition of a web interface would not remove the ability to > use templates and I, for one, find templates to be much easier and more > convenient than a web interface (especially the current state of ARIN on- > line). > > > > Suggestion 2011.21 was submitted as an effort to address this. It is my > understanding that 2011.21 has not received any support from the > membership. If any of you are interested in having template functionality > restored, ARIN needs to know that. If not, likely this suggestion is soon to be > closed without any action and templates will forever fade into history. > > Owen - > > To be clear, we do accept some mail templates (those which have been > modified to contain an API key to secure the request) for many common > operations, including Point-of-Contact (POC) and Org changes, delegation > of resources, etc. You can see the full list of requests which are > supported via email templates here: > > > ARIN decommissioned some extremely old systems which handled the > original email templates, as we needed to move to a single consistent > database and these systems were not maintainable. As part of moving to > the new system (capable of supporting ARIN Online, and RESTful interfaces, > etc), we built a backward compatibility interface for select email templates > for the most commonly used functions (i.e. SWIP & related tasks) but did not > do all requests since that would have been a much larger effort and would > have required significant upkeep whenever number resource policy > changed. > We cannot just "restore" the template functionality; it would instead > require a development effort to implement further shims for each type of > resource request email template that you want created. > > I will note that in 2011 we received 3,269 IP requests (for IPv4 and IPv6 > resources) and 1,644 ASN requests; i.e. a total of 4,913 requests for new > number resources, and the vast majority of these were made via ARIN > Online. > While we've heard lots of positive feedback on the web-based ARIN Online > system and the RESTful interfaces that folks are now using for building > automation between their systems and ARIN, we are very interested any > improvements that can be made to the registry systems and it is simply a > question of prioritization for development and maintenance resources. > > If there is demand for also having email templates as an ongoing third form > of access, then this is definitely something that the ARIN Board needs to be > made aware of, as it will permanently increase the ongoing effort for future > maintenance of the registry to carry this method for resources requests in > addition to the web-based ARIN Online and the RESTful programmatic > interfaces to the registry. There hasn't been much discussion of this topic so > it is hard to gauge demand, but it is important for everyone to realize that > implementing and maintaining the additional access method of template > email for all requests (as opposed to just the current subset) will definitely > increase our costs (the actual amount will vary based on rate and type of > policy changess) and increasing costs is not the direction provided to me by > the ARIN Board. > > I would encourage further discussion on this list and in Vancouver. > > Thanks for raising this topic! > /John > > John Curran > President and CEO > ARIN > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From farmer at umn.edu Tue Apr 3 20:50:48 2012 From: farmer at umn.edu (David Farmer) Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 19:50:48 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method In-Reply-To: <7E7773B523E82C478734E793E58F69E7694E5FDD@SBS2011.thewireinc.local> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <7E7773B523E82C478734E793E58F69E7694E5FDD@SBS2011.thewireinc.local> Message-ID: <4F7B9AE8.1090800@umn.edu> On 4/3/12 19:29 CDT, Kevin Blumberg wrote: > I would also suggest that the ability to save a draft of a submission be supported. As I was reading this thread I was thinking much the same thing. I was thinking about why people might want Email Templates back vs. a Web Form. Other than not wanting to change, I thought about how the work flow has changed. With a email template you had a form you could work on offline and collect all the information you needed and fill it in as you go. Then submit the form, via email when you had it complete. With the Web Form, I believe as implemented, you essentially need all the info for a request all at once, then you do the data entry and submit it. If you could save partially completed web forms and create your own partially complete templates, maybe we can keep the kind of workflow we had with email templates but keep moving forward with the other improvements ARIN Online has brought. I have to say I like ARIN Online and the many improvements, but the web form based workflow can be frustrating at times. So is workflow the real issue here? -- =============================================== David Farmer Email:farmer at umn.edu Networking & Telecommunication Services Office of Information Technology University of Minnesota 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 612-626-0815 Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952 =============================================== From jcurran at arin.net Tue Apr 3 23:14:09 2012 From: jcurran at arin.net (John Curran) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 03:14:09 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN online role accounts for API access / Text update In-Reply-To: <20120403231003.GF20958@trace.bind.com> References: <20120403231003.GF20958@trace.bind.com> Message-ID: Aaron - Acknowledged - We will confirm and update accordingly. Thanks! /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN On Apr 3, 2012, at 7:10 PM, Aaron Hughes wrote: > All, > > I've heard way too many mixed messages about individual ARIN Online accounts vs. role based ARIN Online accounts. > > The text here: https://www.arin.net/public/ > > [snip] > > WHO NEEDS AN ACCOUNT? > Representatives of organizations that hold ARIN resources or plan to request resources will want to take advantage of ARIN Online. > Every individual who manages organization or resource records should create an ARIN Online account using an individual email address. Unlike POC records, ARIN Online accounts cannot use role email addresses, nor should they be shared, or transferred to another person. Individuals can take ARIN Online accounts with them if they move or change jobs because accounts can be unlinked from POC, organization and resource records. > > [end] > > claims all users need an account, however, it does not account for tools using the ARIN RESTFul API. I have been telling people it's ok to create role based accounts for their APIKEY and have heard the same from ARIN staff. If that is the case, and I believe it should be, can the text please get updated to reflect that. > > e.g. "ARIN Online accounts cannot use role email addresses except in the case of an account created for the purpose of connecting via ARIN RESTFul API". > > Cheers, > Aaron > > > -- > > Aaron Hughes > aaronh at bind.com > +1-831-824-4161 > Key fingerprint = AD 67 37 60 7D 73 C5 B7 33 18 3F 36 C3 1C C6 B8 > http://www.bind.com/ > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From mjoseph at google.com Wed Apr 4 01:19:17 2012 From: mjoseph at google.com (Mike Joseph) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 22:19:17 -0700 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN online role accounts for API access / Text update In-Reply-To: <20120403231003.GF20958@trace.bind.com> References: <20120403231003.GF20958@trace.bind.com> Message-ID: Please see also my related suggestion to allow for access restrictions to the API keys, as a first step to avoid the need for role accounts in the first place: https://www.arin.net/participate/acsp/suggestions/2011-17.html -MJ On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 4:10 PM, Aaron Hughes wrote: > All, > > I've heard way too many mixed messages about individual ARIN Online > accounts vs. role based ARIN Online accounts. > > The text here: https://www.arin.net/public/ > > [snip] > > WHO NEEDS AN ACCOUNT? > Representatives of organizations that hold ARIN resources or plan to > request resources will want to take advantage of ARIN Online. > Every individual who manages organization or resource records should > create an ARIN Online account using an individual email address. Unlike POC > records, ARIN Online accounts cannot use role email addresses, nor should > they be shared, or transferred to another person. Individuals can take ARIN > Online accounts with them if they move or change jobs because accounts can > be unlinked from POC, organization and resource records. > > [end] > > claims all users need an account, however, it does not account for tools > using the ARIN RESTFul API. I have been telling people it's ok to create > role based accounts for their APIKEY and have heard the same from ARIN > staff. If that is the case, and I believe it should be, can the text please > get updated to reflect that. > > e.g. "ARIN Online accounts cannot use role email addresses except in the > case of an account created for the purpose of connecting via ARIN RESTFul > API". > > Cheers, > Aaron > > > -- > > Aaron Hughes > aaronh at bind.com > +1-831-824-4161 > Key fingerprint = AD 67 37 60 7D 73 C5 B7 33 18 3F 36 C3 1C C6 B8 > http://www.bind.com/ > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Wed Apr 4 01:17:12 2012 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 22:17:12 -0700 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method In-Reply-To: <4F7B9AE8.1090800@umn.edu> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <7E7773B523E82C478734E793E58F69E7694E5FDD@SBS2011.thewireinc.local> <4F7B9AE8.1090800@umn.edu> Message-ID: <82E67714-3C9B-4FD1-B5BC-BC47124C87B3@delong.com> On Apr 3, 2012, at 5:50 PM, David Farmer wrote: > On 4/3/12 19:29 CDT, Kevin Blumberg wrote: > >> I would also suggest that the ability to save a draft of a submission be supported. > > As I was reading this thread I was thinking much the same thing. I was thinking about why people might want Email Templates back vs. a Web Form. Other than not wanting to change, I thought about how the work flow has changed. With a email template you had a form you could work on offline and collect all the information you needed and fill it in as you go. Then submit the form, via email when you had it complete. > You also had: 1. A single consolidated document you could review as a cohesive unit. 2. Easy navigation back and forth checking the document for internal consistency 3. A set of pre-defined well documented fields. 4. The ability to easily attach files ad-hoc and reference them within justification fields (ARIN On-Line pretends to have this, but, the file checking rarely accepts my files in spite of them conforming to the rules specified. These problems have proven intermittent and nearly impossible to track down so far.) 5. Full-text email updates and the ability to easily transfer the template in progress back and forth between myself and my clients for review, update, etc. prior to submission to ARIN. The work flow has changed substantially and is costing my clients on average $500-$750 more per request just in my time alone. > With the Web Form, I believe as implemented, you essentially need all the info for a request all at once, then you do the data entry and submit it. If you could save partially completed web forms and create your own partially complete templates, maybe we can keep the kind of workflow we had with email templates but keep moving forward with the other improvements ARIN Online has brought. > It's much worse than that. You have to navigate several disconnected pages in sequence with no useful ability to navigate back and forth in the process. It's not entirely clear from the first page what will be requested on the subsequent pages, etc. > I have to say I like ARIN Online and the many improvements, but the web form based workflow can be frustrating at times. So is workflow the real issue here? > Most definitely, but, in so many ways, it's hard to imagine making the web-based workflow as useful as the email-based one was. Owen From owen at delong.com Wed Apr 4 01:27:58 2012 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 22:27:58 -0700 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN online role accounts for API access / Text update In-Reply-To: References: <20120403231003.GF20958@trace.bind.com> Message-ID: +1 An account should represent a person. A role should represent a set of permissions and a list of accounts. Owen On Apr 3, 2012, at 10:19 PM, Mike Joseph wrote: > Please see also my related suggestion to allow for access restrictions to the API keys, as a first step to avoid the need for role accounts in the first place: > > https://www.arin.net/participate/acsp/suggestions/2011-17.html > > -MJ > > On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 4:10 PM, Aaron Hughes wrote: > All, > > I've heard way too many mixed messages about individual ARIN Online accounts vs. role based ARIN Online accounts. > > The text here: https://www.arin.net/public/ > > [snip] > > WHO NEEDS AN ACCOUNT? > Representatives of organizations that hold ARIN resources or plan to request resources will want to take advantage of ARIN Online. > Every individual who manages organization or resource records should create an ARIN Online account using an individual email address. Unlike POC records, ARIN Online accounts cannot use role email addresses, nor should they be shared, or transferred to another person. Individuals can take ARIN Online accounts with them if they move or change jobs because accounts can be unlinked from POC, organization and resource records. > > [end] > > claims all users need an account, however, it does not account for tools using the ARIN RESTFul API. I have been telling people it's ok to create role based accounts for their APIKEY and have heard the same from ARIN staff. If that is the case, and I believe it should be, can the text please get updated to reflect that. > > e.g. "ARIN Online accounts cannot use role email addresses except in the case of an account created for the purpose of connecting via ARIN RESTFul API". > > Cheers, > Aaron > > > -- > > Aaron Hughes > aaronh at bind.com > +1-831-824-4161 > Key fingerprint = AD 67 37 60 7D 73 C5 B7 33 18 3F 36 C3 1C C6 B8 > http://www.bind.com/ > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marty at akamai.com Wed Apr 4 09:17:25 2012 From: marty at akamai.com (Hannigan, Martin) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 09:17:25 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method (was: Bringing back IP resource Request Templates) In-Reply-To: <7E7773B523E82C478734E793E58F69E7694E5FDD@SBS2011.thewireinc.local> Message-ID: On 4/3/12 8:29 PM, "Kevin Blumberg" wrote: > I am not in support of adding back this feature. I believe that there is > better use > for the funds that are allocated to development and would not support raising > fee's > to support a minority of users who "prefer" one method over another. Agreed. > I believe that improvements to ARIN Online should be looked at especially in > the area > of securing who can change that data. I would far rather see every ARIN Online > member > have a two factor authentication key. Agreed. >I would also suggest that the ability > to save a draft > of a submission be supported. > I've raised this issue to staff on two occasions over the twelve months. Some "applications" require large or complicated amounts of data at different points of the process and it would be useful to be able to save and exit without forwarding the request. Best, -M< From dk at intuix.com Wed Apr 4 11:08:02 2012 From: dk at intuix.com (Dmitry Kohmanyuk) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 18:08:02 +0300 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method In-Reply-To: <82E67714-3C9B-4FD1-B5BC-BC47124C87B3@delong.com> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <7E7773B523E82C478734E793E58F69E7694E5FDD@SBS2011.thewireinc.local> <4F7B9AE8.1090800@umn.edu> <82E67714-3C9B-4FD1-B5BC-BC47124C87B3@delong.com> Message-ID: <2A18F00A-9B9B-4DAD-B69F-C5DF51DCBB8A@intuix.com> On Apr 4, 2012, at 8:17 AM, Owen DeLong wrote: > You also had: > > 1. A single consolidated document you could review as a cohesive unit. > 2. Easy navigation back and forth checking the document for internal consistency > 3. A set of pre-defined well documented fields. > 4. The ability to easily attach files ad-hoc and reference them within justification fields > (ARIN On-Line pretends to have this, but, the file checking rarely accepts my files > in spite of them conforming to the rules specified. These problems have proven > intermittent and nearly impossible to track down so far.) > 5. Full-text email updates and the ability to easily transfer the template in progress > back and forth between myself and my clients for review, update, etc. prior to > submission to ARIN. one more thing: 6. ability to use text tools (diff) to compare different requests submitted, for change control ("four eyes"). so we should not say "bring back email" but rather "make update objects users can copy, modify, share, and save". -- dk@ p.s. dare i say that (moderated) user-submitted comments for templates can be useful? social networking, for ARIN users. From ggiesen at egate.net Wed Apr 4 11:15:41 2012 From: ggiesen at egate.net (Gary T. Giesen) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 11:15:41 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method In-Reply-To: <82E67714-3C9B-4FD1-B5BC-BC47124C87B3@delong.com> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <7E7773B523E82C478734E793E58F69E7694E5FDD@SBS2011.thewireinc.local> <4F7B9AE8.1090800@umn.edu> <82E67714-3C9B-4FD1-B5BC-BC47124C87B3@delong.com> Message-ID: To address some of the security and email parsing concerns, what about the possibility of having a giant text box in ARIN Online where multiple email templates can be pasted in at once (and of course saved for later editing before submission). This would ensure users are properly authenticated, allow bulk submission of requests, allow easy editing/copy/paste, and no format changes for people who are already used to the email templates (other than the transport method). I would imagine that would go a long way towards addressing some of Owen's concerns while not having to deal most of the issues of receiving and parsing email. I would imagine the maintenance headache would be greatly reduced as well. GTG -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong Sent: April 4, 2012 1:17 AM To: David Farmer Cc: arin-discuss List; John Curran Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method On Apr 3, 2012, at 5:50 PM, David Farmer wrote: > On 4/3/12 19:29 CDT, Kevin Blumberg wrote: > >> I would also suggest that the ability to save a draft of a submission be supported. > > As I was reading this thread I was thinking much the same thing. I was thinking about why people might want Email Templates back vs. a Web Form. Other than not wanting to change, I thought about how the work flow has changed. With a email template you had a form you could work on offline and collect all the information you needed and fill it in as you go. Then submit the form, via email when you had it complete. > You also had: 1. A single consolidated document you could review as a cohesive unit. 2. Easy navigation back and forth checking the document for internal consistency 3. A set of pre-defined well documented fields. 4. The ability to easily attach files ad-hoc and reference them within justification fields (ARIN On-Line pretends to have this, but, the file checking rarely accepts my files in spite of them conforming to the rules specified. These problems have proven intermittent and nearly impossible to track down so far.) 5. Full-text email updates and the ability to easily transfer the template in progress back and forth between myself and my clients for review, update, etc. prior to submission to ARIN. The work flow has changed substantially and is costing my clients on average $500-$750 more per request just in my time alone. > With the Web Form, I believe as implemented, you essentially need all the info for a request all at once, then you do the data entry and submit it. If you could save partially completed web forms and create your own partially complete templates, maybe we can keep the kind of workflow we had with email templates but keep moving forward with the other improvements ARIN Online has brought. > It's much worse than that. You have to navigate several disconnected pages in sequence with no useful ability to navigate back and forth in the process. It's not entirely clear from the first page what will be requested on the subsequent pages, etc. > I have to say I like ARIN Online and the many improvements, but the web form based workflow can be frustrating at times. So is workflow the real issue here? > Most definitely, but, in so many ways, it's hard to imagine making the web-based workflow as useful as the email-based one was. Owen _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From jcurran at arin.net Wed Apr 4 11:27:45 2012 From: jcurran at arin.net (John Curran) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 15:27:45 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <7E7773B523E82C478734E793E58F69E7694E5FDD@SBS2011.thewireinc.local> <4F7B9AE8.1090800@umn.edu> <82E67714-3C9B-4FD1-B5BC-BC47124C87B3@delong.com> Message-ID: <54654AD9-E460-4545-BB9F-5A6A7E7B6CF5@arin.net> Gary - To be clear, we do already support email templates, including the secure transmission of them via PGP (read: ) If we provided the ability to cut/paste them into ARIN Online, that would also be secure, but would not address the issue that Owen raised which is that he would like some of the email template types that are no longer present (e.g. requesting new resources) to be developed and make available. Doing this development and maintenance would require similar effort to simply accepting them via email. Providing an alternative method to submit may indeed be worth considering, but it is an orthogonal issue to Owen's request. Thanks! /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN On Apr 4, 2012, at 11:15 AM, Gary T. Giesen wrote: > To address some of the security and email parsing concerns, what about the possibility of having a giant text box in ARIN Online where multiple email templates can be pasted in at once (and of course saved for later editing before submission). This would ensure users are properly authenticated, allow bulk submission of requests, allow easy editing/copy/paste, and no format changes for people who are already used to the email templates (other than the transport method). > > I would imagine that would go a long way towards addressing some of Owen's concerns while not having to deal most of the issues of receiving and parsing email. I would imagine the maintenance headache would be greatly reduced as well. > > GTG > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong > Sent: April 4, 2012 1:17 AM > To: David Farmer > Cc: arin-discuss List; John Curran > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method > > > On Apr 3, 2012, at 5:50 PM, David Farmer wrote: > >> On 4/3/12 19:29 CDT, Kevin Blumberg wrote: >> >>> I would also suggest that the ability to save a draft of a submission be supported. >> >> As I was reading this thread I was thinking much the same thing. I was thinking about why people might want Email Templates back vs. a Web Form. Other than not wanting to change, I thought about how the work flow has changed. With a email template you had a form you could work on offline and collect all the information you needed and fill it in as you go. Then submit the form, via email when you had it complete. >> > > You also had: > > 1. A single consolidated document you could review as a cohesive unit. > 2. Easy navigation back and forth checking the document for internal consistency > 3. A set of pre-defined well documented fields. > 4. The ability to easily attach files ad-hoc and reference them within justification fields > (ARIN On-Line pretends to have this, but, the file checking rarely accepts my files > in spite of them conforming to the rules specified. These problems have proven > intermittent and nearly impossible to track down so far.) > 5. Full-text email updates and the ability to easily transfer the template in progress > back and forth between myself and my clients for review, update, etc. prior to > submission to ARIN. > > The work flow has changed substantially and is costing my clients on average $500-$750 more per request just in my time alone. > >> With the Web Form, I believe as implemented, you essentially need all the info for a request all at once, then you do the data entry and submit it. If you could save partially completed web forms and create your own partially complete templates, maybe we can keep the kind of workflow we had with email templates but keep moving forward with the other improvements ARIN Online has brought. >> > > It's much worse than that. You have to navigate several disconnected pages in sequence with no useful ability to navigate back and forth in the process. It's not entirely clear from the first page what will be requested on the subsequent pages, etc. > >> I have to say I like ARIN Online and the many improvements, but the web form based workflow can be frustrating at times. So is workflow the real issue here? >> > > Most definitely, but, in so many ways, it's hard to imagine making the web-based workflow as useful as the email-based one was. > > Owen > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > From ggiesen at egate.net Wed Apr 4 11:36:42 2012 From: ggiesen at egate.net (Gary T. Giesen) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 11:36:42 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method In-Reply-To: <54654AD9-E460-4545-BB9F-5A6A7E7B6CF5@arin.net> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <7E7773B523E82C478734E793E58F69E7694E5FDD@SBS2011.thewireinc.local> <4F7B9AE8.1090800@umn.edu> <82E67714-3C9B-4FD1-B5BC-BC47124C87B3@delong.com> <54654AD9-E460-4545-BB9F-5A6A7E7B6CF5@arin.net> Message-ID: John, Just to be clear where costs lie... My impression was that the bulk of the ongoing costs involved with accepting email templates involves things like maintaining email infrustracture, filtering spam, dealing with missing/lost requests (all of which requires human intervention). Some development costs aside, would my proposal involve a great deal of additional ongoing costs for the parser to maintain parity between the "step-by-step" form and the "bulk" submission form? Or perhaps just use the bulk parser to pre-populate the fields in the step-by-step form so you can still use the same validation code? GTG -----Original Message----- From: John Curran [mailto:jcurran at arin.net] Sent: April 4, 2012 11:28 AM To: Gary T. Giesen Cc: Owen DeLong; David Farmer; arin-discuss List Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method Gary - To be clear, we do already support email templates, including the secure transmission of them via PGP (read: ) If we provided the ability to cut/paste them into ARIN Online, that would also be secure, but would not address the issue that Owen raised which is that he would like some of the email template types that are no longer present (e.g. requesting new resources) to be developed and make available. Doing this development and maintenance would require similar effort to simply accepting them via email. Providing an alternative method to submit may indeed be worth considering, but it is an orthogonal issue to Owen's request. Thanks! /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN On Apr 4, 2012, at 11:15 AM, Gary T. Giesen wrote: > To address some of the security and email parsing concerns, what about the possibility of having a giant text box in ARIN Online where multiple email templates can be pasted in at once (and of course saved for later editing before submission). This would ensure users are properly authenticated, allow bulk submission of requests, allow easy editing/copy/paste, and no format changes for people who are already used to the email templates (other than the transport method). > > I would imagine that would go a long way towards addressing some of Owen's concerns while not having to deal most of the issues of receiving and parsing email. I would imagine the maintenance headache would be greatly reduced as well. > > GTG > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong > Sent: April 4, 2012 1:17 AM > To: David Farmer > Cc: arin-discuss List; John Curran > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method > > > On Apr 3, 2012, at 5:50 PM, David Farmer wrote: > >> On 4/3/12 19:29 CDT, Kevin Blumberg wrote: >> >>> I would also suggest that the ability to save a draft of a submission be supported. >> >> As I was reading this thread I was thinking much the same thing. I was thinking about why people might want Email Templates back vs. a Web Form. Other than not wanting to change, I thought about how the work flow has changed. With a email template you had a form you could work on offline and collect all the information you needed and fill it in as you go. Then submit the form, via email when you had it complete. >> > > You also had: > > 1. A single consolidated document you could review as a cohesive unit. > 2. Easy navigation back and forth checking the document for internal consistency > 3. A set of pre-defined well documented fields. > 4. The ability to easily attach files ad-hoc and reference them within justification fields > (ARIN On-Line pretends to have this, but, the file checking rarely accepts my files > in spite of them conforming to the rules specified. These problems have proven > intermittent and nearly impossible to track down so far.) > 5. Full-text email updates and the ability to easily transfer the template in progress > back and forth between myself and my clients for review, update, etc. prior to > submission to ARIN. > > The work flow has changed substantially and is costing my clients on average $500-$750 more per request just in my time alone. > >> With the Web Form, I believe as implemented, you essentially need all the info for a request all at once, then you do the data entry and submit it. If you could save partially completed web forms and create your own partially complete templates, maybe we can keep the kind of workflow we had with email templates but keep moving forward with the other improvements ARIN Online has brought. >> > > It's much worse than that. You have to navigate several disconnected pages in sequence with no useful ability to navigate back and forth in the process. It's not entirely clear from the first page what will be requested on the subsequent pages, etc. > >> I have to say I like ARIN Online and the many improvements, but the web form based workflow can be frustrating at times. So is workflow the real issue here? >> > > Most definitely, but, in so many ways, it's hard to imagine making the web-based workflow as useful as the email-based one was. > > Owen > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > From alec at ionity.com Wed Apr 4 11:38:28 2012 From: alec at ionity.com (Alec Ginsberg) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 11:38:28 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method In-Reply-To: <54654AD9-E460-4545-BB9F-5A6A7E7B6CF5@arin.net> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <7E7773B523E82C478734E793E58F69E7694E5FDD@SBS2011.thewireinc.local> <4F7B9AE8.1090800@umn.edu> <82E67714-3C9B-4FD1-B5BC-BC47124C87B3@delong.com> <54654AD9-E460-4545-BB9F-5A6A7E7B6CF5@arin.net> Message-ID: <4A584426-7C0F-46E1-8818-0C91E51F43DD@ionity.com> Why isn't there a common backend that can accept input via mail or web? This easily could be accomplished so there would be nothing to maintain on the mail form that is different from the web site? To me it seems the main concern is missing functionally and usability on the web and a minor component is ease of use for the mail template (send and forget). Who architected Arin online? Maybe it should be evaluated for usability before it is set in stone that this is the best way to move forward. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 4, 2012, at 10:28 AM, "John Curran" wrote: > Gary - > > To be clear, we do already support email templates, including the > secure transmission of them via PGP (read: ) > > If we provided the ability to cut/paste them into ARIN Online, that > would also be secure, but would not address the issue that Owen raised > which is that he would like some of the email template types that are > no longer present (e.g. requesting new resources) to be developed and > make available. > > Doing this development and maintenance would require similar effort to > simply accepting them via email. Providing an alternative method to > submit may indeed be worth considering, but it is an orthogonal issue > to Owen's request. > > Thanks! > /John > > John Curran > President and CEO > ARIN > > On Apr 4, 2012, at 11:15 AM, Gary T. Giesen wrote: > >> To address some of the security and email parsing concerns, what about the possibility of having a giant text box in ARIN Online where multiple email templates can be pasted in at once (and of course saved for later editing before submission). This would ensure users are properly authenticated, allow bulk submission of requests, allow easy editing/copy/paste, and no format changes for people who are already used to the email templates (other than the transport method). >> >> I would imagine that would go a long way towards addressing some of Owen's concerns while not having to deal most of the issues of receiving and parsing email. I would imagine the maintenance headache would be greatly reduced as well. >> >> GTG >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong >> Sent: April 4, 2012 1:17 AM >> To: David Farmer >> Cc: arin-discuss List; John Curran >> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method >> >> >> On Apr 3, 2012, at 5:50 PM, David Farmer wrote: >> >>> On 4/3/12 19:29 CDT, Kevin Blumberg wrote: >>> >>>> I would also suggest that the ability to save a draft of a submission be supported. >>> >>> As I was reading this thread I was thinking much the same thing. I was thinking about why people might want Email Templates back vs. a Web Form. Other than not wanting to change, I thought about how the work flow has changed. With a email template you had a form you could work on offline and collect all the information you needed and fill it in as you go. Then submit the form, via email when you had it complete. >>> >> >> You also had: >> >> 1. A single consolidated document you could review as a cohesive unit. >> 2. Easy navigation back and forth checking the document for internal consistency >> 3. A set of pre-defined well documented fields. >> 4. The ability to easily attach files ad-hoc and reference them within justification fields >> (ARIN On-Line pretends to have this, but, the file checking rarely accepts my files >> in spite of them conforming to the rules specified. These problems have proven >> intermittent and nearly impossible to track down so far.) >> 5. Full-text email updates and the ability to easily transfer the template in progress >> back and forth between myself and my clients for review, update, etc. prior to >> submission to ARIN. >> >> The work flow has changed substantially and is costing my clients on average $500-$750 more per request just in my time alone. >> >>> With the Web Form, I believe as implemented, you essentially need all the info for a request all at once, then you do the data entry and submit it. If you could save partially completed web forms and create your own partially complete templates, maybe we can keep the kind of workflow we had with email templates but keep moving forward with the other improvements ARIN Online has brought. >>> >> >> It's much worse than that. You have to navigate several disconnected pages in sequence with no useful ability to navigate back and forth in the process. It's not entirely clear from the first page what will be requested on the subsequent pages, etc. >> >>> I have to say I like ARIN Online and the many improvements, but the web form based workflow can be frustrating at times. So is workflow the real issue here? >>> >> >> Most definitely, but, in so many ways, it's hard to imagine making the web-based workflow as useful as the email-based one was. >> >> Owen >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >> > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From ram at robertmarder.com Wed Apr 4 11:42:41 2012 From: ram at robertmarder.com (Robert Marder) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2012 10:42:41 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] =?utf-8?q?Template-based_email_as_a_third_registry?= =?utf-8?q?_access=09method?= In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <7E7773B523E82C478734E793E58F69E7694E5FDD@SBS2011.thewireinc.local> <4F7B9AE8.1090800@umn.edu> <82E67714-3C9B-4FD1-B5BC-BC47124C87B3@delong.com> Message-ID: <0f876765a421c52d82989de66972a5d2@robertmarder.com> I would imagine that doesn't really do anything as far as maintenance costs, as all you're doing is changing the existing system of piping an email into a program into piping a text box into a program. You're basically replacing the smtp server with a web server and web form. As far as addressing the authentication issue, while that's true, there are various other ways to do that, such as the API key already used, and various other methods that could be considered in future. It's worth noting that the RESTful interface also has the same authentication limitation reliant on an API key as email templates do at the moment, so in light of that I don't really see an email authentication issue (presuming members think all interfaces to ARIN having equal levels of authentication is acceptable, as is the case now with email vs RESTful interactions). On 04.04.2012 10:15, Gary T. Giesen wrote: > To address some of the security and email parsing concerns, what > about the possibility of having a giant text box in ARIN Online where > multiple email templates can be pasted in at once (and of course > saved > for later editing before submission). This would ensure users are > properly authenticated, allow bulk submission of requests, allow easy > editing/copy/paste, and no format changes for people who are already > used to the email templates (other than the transport method). > > I would imagine that would go a long way towards addressing some of > Owen's concerns while not having to deal most of the issues of > receiving and parsing email. I would imagine the maintenance headache > would be greatly reduced as well. > > GTG > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong > Sent: April 4, 2012 1:17 AM > To: David Farmer > Cc: arin-discuss List; John Curran > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry > access method > > > On Apr 3, 2012, at 5:50 PM, David Farmer wrote: > >> On 4/3/12 19:29 CDT, Kevin Blumberg wrote: >> >>> I would also suggest that the ability to save a draft of a >>> submission be supported. >> >> As I was reading this thread I was thinking much the same thing. I >> was thinking about why people might want Email Templates back vs. a >> Web Form. Other than not wanting to change, I thought about how the >> work flow has changed. With a email template you had a form you could >> work on offline and collect all the information you needed and fill it >> in as you go. Then submit the form, via email when you had it >> complete. >> > > You also had: > > 1. A single consolidated document you could review as a cohesive > unit. > 2. Easy navigation back and forth checking the document for internal > consistency > 3. A set of pre-defined well documented fields. > 4. The ability to easily attach files ad-hoc and reference them > within justification fields > (ARIN On-Line pretends to have this, but, the file checking rarely > accepts my files > in spite of them conforming to the rules specified. These problems > have proven > intermittent and nearly impossible to track down so far.) > 5. Full-text email updates and the ability to easily transfer the > template in progress > back and forth between myself and my clients for review, update, > etc. prior to > submission to ARIN. > > The work flow has changed substantially and is costing my clients on > average $500-$750 more per request just in my time alone. > >> With the Web Form, I believe as implemented, you essentially need >> all the info for a request all at once, then you do the data entry and >> submit it. If you could save partially completed web forms and create >> your own partially complete templates, maybe we can keep the kind of >> workflow we had with email templates but keep moving forward with the >> other improvements ARIN Online has brought. >> > > It's much worse than that. You have to navigate several disconnected > pages in sequence with no useful ability to navigate back and forth > in > the process. It's not entirely clear from the first page what will be > requested on the subsequent pages, etc. > >> I have to say I like ARIN Online and the many improvements, but the >> web form based workflow can be frustrating at times. So is workflow >> the real issue here? >> > > Most definitely, but, in so many ways, it's hard to imagine making > the web-based workflow as useful as the email-based one was. > > Owen > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From alec at ionity.com Wed Apr 4 11:46:12 2012 From: alec at ionity.com (Alec Ginsberg) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 11:46:12 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method In-Reply-To: <0f876765a421c52d82989de66972a5d2@robertmarder.com> Message-ID: eMail is sent clear text? Web Services can require SSL encrypted payloads. I think that if eMail templates are to continue they should require PGP encryption so a man in the middle couldn't capture the API key and submit on behalf of me. On 4/4/12 10:42 AM, "Robert Marder" wrote: >I would imagine that doesn't really do anything as far as maintenance >costs, as all you're doing is changing the existing system of piping an >email into a program into piping a text box into a program. You're >basically replacing the smtp server with a web server and web form. > >As far as addressing the authentication issue, while that's true, there >are various other ways to do that, such as the API key already used, and >various other methods that could be considered in future. > >It's worth noting that the RESTful interface also has the same >authentication limitation reliant on an API key as email templates do at >the moment, so in light of that I don't really see an email >authentication issue (presuming members think all interfaces to ARIN >having equal levels of authentication is acceptable, as is the case now >with email vs RESTful interactions). > >On 04.04.2012 10:15, Gary T. Giesen wrote: >> To address some of the security and email parsing concerns, what >> about the possibility of having a giant text box in ARIN Online where >> multiple email templates can be pasted in at once (and of course >> saved >> for later editing before submission). This would ensure users are >> properly authenticated, allow bulk submission of requests, allow easy >> editing/copy/paste, and no format changes for people who are already >> used to the email templates (other than the transport method). >> >> I would imagine that would go a long way towards addressing some of >> Owen's concerns while not having to deal most of the issues of >> receiving and parsing email. I would imagine the maintenance headache >> would be greatly reduced as well. >> >> GTG >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong >> Sent: April 4, 2012 1:17 AM >> To: David Farmer >> Cc: arin-discuss List; John Curran >> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry >> access method >> >> >> On Apr 3, 2012, at 5:50 PM, David Farmer wrote: >> >>> On 4/3/12 19:29 CDT, Kevin Blumberg wrote: >>> >>>> I would also suggest that the ability to save a draft of a >>>> submission be supported. >>> >>> As I was reading this thread I was thinking much the same thing. I >>> was thinking about why people might want Email Templates back vs. a >>> Web Form. Other than not wanting to change, I thought about how the >>> work flow has changed. With a email template you had a form you could >>> work on offline and collect all the information you needed and fill it >>> in as you go. Then submit the form, via email when you had it >>> complete. >>> >> >> You also had: >> >> 1. A single consolidated document you could review as a cohesive >> unit. >> 2. Easy navigation back and forth checking the document for internal >> consistency >> 3. A set of pre-defined well documented fields. >> 4. The ability to easily attach files ad-hoc and reference them >> within justification fields >> (ARIN On-Line pretends to have this, but, the file checking rarely >> accepts my files >> in spite of them conforming to the rules specified. These problems >> have proven >> intermittent and nearly impossible to track down so far.) >> 5. Full-text email updates and the ability to easily transfer the >> template in progress >> back and forth between myself and my clients for review, update, >> etc. prior to >> submission to ARIN. >> >> The work flow has changed substantially and is costing my clients on >> average $500-$750 more per request just in my time alone. >> >>> With the Web Form, I believe as implemented, you essentially need >>> all the info for a request all at once, then you do the data entry and >>> submit it. If you could save partially completed web forms and create >>> your own partially complete templates, maybe we can keep the kind of >>> workflow we had with email templates but keep moving forward with the >>> other improvements ARIN Online has brought. >>> >> >> It's much worse than that. You have to navigate several disconnected >> pages in sequence with no useful ability to navigate back and forth >> in >> the process. It's not entirely clear from the first page what will be >> requested on the subsequent pages, etc. >> >>> I have to say I like ARIN Online and the many improvements, but the >>> web form based workflow can be frustrating at times. So is workflow >>> the real issue here? >>> >> >> Most definitely, but, in so many ways, it's hard to imagine making >> the web-based workflow as useful as the email-based one was. >> >> Owen >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN >> Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > >_______________________________________________ >ARIN-Discuss >You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From jcurran at arin.net Wed Apr 4 11:46:54 2012 From: jcurran at arin.net (John Curran) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 15:46:54 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <7E7773B523E82C478734E793E58F69E7694E5FDD@SBS2011.thewireinc.local> <4F7B9AE8.1090800@umn.edu> <82E67714-3C9B-4FD1-B5BC-BC47124C87B3@delong.com> <54654AD9-E460-4545-BB9F-5A6A7E7B6CF5@arin.net>, Message-ID: Gary - We already have a complete system for handling email templates; the question is whether to add templates for performing new and additional number resource requests (and of course maintaining them as policies change, in addition to the present updates that must be done for ARIN Online and RESTful interfaces.) Hope this clarifies things, /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN On Apr 4, 2012, at 11:36 AM, "Gary T. Giesen" wrote: > John, > > Just to be clear where costs lie... My impression was that the bulk of the ongoing costs involved with accepting email templates involves things like maintaining email infrustracture, filtering spam, dealing with missing/lost requests (all of which requires human intervention). Some development costs aside, would my proposal involve a great deal of additional ongoing costs for the parser to maintain parity between the "step-by-step" form and the "bulk" submission form? Or perhaps just use the bulk parser to pre-populate the fields in the step-by-step form so you can still use the same validation code? > > GTG > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Curran [mailto:jcurran at arin.net] > Sent: April 4, 2012 11:28 AM > To: Gary T. Giesen > Cc: Owen DeLong; David Farmer; arin-discuss List > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method > > Gary - > > To be clear, we do already support email templates, including the > secure transmission of them via PGP (read: ) > > If we provided the ability to cut/paste them into ARIN Online, that > would also be secure, but would not address the issue that Owen raised > which is that he would like some of the email template types that are > no longer present (e.g. requesting new resources) to be developed and > make available. > > Doing this development and maintenance would require similar effort to > simply accepting them via email. Providing an alternative method to > submit may indeed be worth considering, but it is an orthogonal issue > to Owen's request. > > Thanks! > /John > > John Curran > President and CEO > ARIN > > On Apr 4, 2012, at 11:15 AM, Gary T. Giesen wrote: > >> To address some of the security and email parsing concerns, what about the possibility of having a giant text box in ARIN Online where multiple email templates can be pasted in at once (and of course saved for later editing before submission). This would ensure users are properly authenticated, allow bulk submission of requests, allow easy editing/copy/paste, and no format changes for people who are already used to the email templates (other than the transport method). >> >> I would imagine that would go a long way towards addressing some of Owen's concerns while not having to deal most of the issues of receiving and parsing email. I would imagine the maintenance headache would be greatly reduced as well. >> >> GTG >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong >> Sent: April 4, 2012 1:17 AM >> To: David Farmer >> Cc: arin-discuss List; John Curran >> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method >> >> >> On Apr 3, 2012, at 5:50 PM, David Farmer wrote: >> >>> On 4/3/12 19:29 CDT, Kevin Blumberg wrote: >>> >>>> I would also suggest that the ability to save a draft of a submission be supported. >>> >>> As I was reading this thread I was thinking much the same thing. I was thinking about why people might want Email Templates back vs. a Web Form. Other than not wanting to change, I thought about how the work flow has changed. With a email template you had a form you could work on offline and collect all the information you needed and fill it in as you go. Then submit the form, via email when you had it complete. >>> >> >> You also had: >> >> 1. A single consolidated document you could review as a cohesive unit. >> 2. Easy navigation back and forth checking the document for internal consistency >> 3. A set of pre-defined well documented fields. >> 4. The ability to easily attach files ad-hoc and reference them within justification fields >> (ARIN On-Line pretends to have this, but, the file checking rarely accepts my files >> in spite of them conforming to the rules specified. These problems have proven >> intermittent and nearly impossible to track down so far.) >> 5. Full-text email updates and the ability to easily transfer the template in progress >> back and forth between myself and my clients for review, update, etc. prior to >> submission to ARIN. >> >> The work flow has changed substantially and is costing my clients on average $500-$750 more per request just in my time alone. >> >>> With the Web Form, I believe as implemented, you essentially need all the info for a request all at once, then you do the data entry and submit it. If you could save partially completed web forms and create your own partially complete templates, maybe we can keep the kind of workflow we had with email templates but keep moving forward with the other improvements ARIN Online has brought. >>> >> >> It's much worse than that. You have to navigate several disconnected pages in sequence with no useful ability to navigate back and forth in the process. It's not entirely clear from the first page what will be requested on the subsequent pages, etc. >> >>> I have to say I like ARIN Online and the many improvements, but the web form based workflow can be frustrating at times. So is workflow the real issue here? >>> >> >> Most definitely, but, in so many ways, it's hard to imagine making the web-based workflow as useful as the email-based one was. >> >> Owen >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >> > > From ram at robertmarder.com Wed Apr 4 11:52:13 2012 From: ram at robertmarder.com (Robert Marder) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2012 10:52:13 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's really an issue of secure communication, not authentication. Personally, I would like to see some kind of challenge response to email template submissions. PGP email is a pain to implement, and those of us such as myself that routinely use web email instead of rich client email will continue to be able to use templates (as most webmail clients can't do PGP email). On 04.04.2012 10:46, Alec Ginsberg wrote: > eMail is sent clear text? > > Web Services can require SSL encrypted payloads. > > On 4/4/12 10:42 AM, "Robert Marder" wrote: > >>I would imagine that doesn't really do anything as far as maintenance >>costs, as all you're doing is changing the existing system of piping >> an >>email into a program into piping a text box into a program. You're >>basically replacing the smtp server with a web server and web form. >> >>As far as addressing the authentication issue, while that's true, >> there >>are various other ways to do that, such as the API key already used, >> and >>various other methods that could be considered in future. >> >>It's worth noting that the RESTful interface also has the same >>authentication limitation reliant on an API key as email templates do >> at >>the moment, so in light of that I don't really see an email >>authentication issue (presuming members think all interfaces to ARIN >>having equal levels of authentication is acceptable, as is the case >> now >>with email vs RESTful interactions). >> >>On 04.04.2012 10:15, Gary T. Giesen wrote: >>> To address some of the security and email parsing concerns, what >>> about the possibility of having a giant text box in ARIN Online >>> where >>> multiple email templates can be pasted in at once (and of course >>> saved >>> for later editing before submission). This would ensure users are >>> properly authenticated, allow bulk submission of requests, allow >>> easy >>> editing/copy/paste, and no format changes for people who are >>> already >>> used to the email templates (other than the transport method). >>> >>> I would imagine that would go a long way towards addressing some of >>> Owen's concerns while not having to deal most of the issues of >>> receiving and parsing email. I would imagine the maintenance >>> headache >>> would be greatly reduced as well. >>> >>> GTG >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong >>> Sent: April 4, 2012 1:17 AM >>> To: David Farmer >>> Cc: arin-discuss List; John Curran >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third >>> registry >>> access method >>> >>> >>> On Apr 3, 2012, at 5:50 PM, David Farmer wrote: >>> >>>> On 4/3/12 19:29 CDT, Kevin Blumberg wrote: >>>> >>>>> I would also suggest that the ability to save a draft of a >>>>> submission be supported. >>>> >>>> As I was reading this thread I was thinking much the same thing. >>>> I >>>> was thinking about why people might want Email Templates back vs. >>>> a >>>> Web Form. Other than not wanting to change, I thought about how >>>> the >>>> work flow has changed. With a email template you had a form you >>>> could >>>> work on offline and collect all the information you needed and >>>> fill it >>>> in as you go. Then submit the form, via email when you had it >>>> complete. >>>> >>> >>> You also had: >>> >>> 1. A single consolidated document you could review as a cohesive >>> unit. >>> 2. Easy navigation back and forth checking the document for >>> internal >>> consistency >>> 3. A set of pre-defined well documented fields. >>> 4. The ability to easily attach files ad-hoc and reference them >>> within justification fields >>> (ARIN On-Line pretends to have this, but, the file checking >>> rarely >>> accepts my files >>> in spite of them conforming to the rules specified. These >>> problems >>> have proven >>> intermittent and nearly impossible to track down so far.) >>> 5. Full-text email updates and the ability to easily transfer the >>> template in progress >>> back and forth between myself and my clients for review, update, >>> etc. prior to >>> submission to ARIN. >>> >>> The work flow has changed substantially and is costing my clients >>> on >>> average $500-$750 more per request just in my time alone. >>> >>>> With the Web Form, I believe as implemented, you essentially need >>>> all the info for a request all at once, then you do the data entry >>>> and >>>> submit it. If you could save partially completed web forms and >>>> create >>>> your own partially complete templates, maybe we can keep the kind >>>> of >>>> workflow we had with email templates but keep moving forward with >>>> the >>>> other improvements ARIN Online has brought. >>>> >>> >>> It's much worse than that. You have to navigate several >>> disconnected >>> pages in sequence with no useful ability to navigate back and forth >>> in >>> the process. It's not entirely clear from the first page what will >>> be >>> requested on the subsequent pages, etc. >>> >>>> I have to say I like ARIN Online and the many improvements, but >>>> the >>>> web form based workflow can be frustrating at times. So is >>>> workflow >>>> the real issue here? >>>> >>> >>> Most definitely, but, in so many ways, it's hard to imagine making >>> the web-based workflow as useful as the email-based one was. >>> >>> Owen >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARIN-Discuss >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the >>> ARIN >>> Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARIN-Discuss >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >> >>_______________________________________________ >>ARIN-Discuss >>You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From jcurran at arin.net Wed Apr 4 11:54:06 2012 From: jcurran at arin.net (John Curran) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 15:54:06 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method In-Reply-To: <4A584426-7C0F-46E1-8818-0C91E51F43DD@ionity.com> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <7E7773B523E82C478734E793E58F69E7694E5FDD@SBS2011.thewireinc.local> <4F7B9AE8.1090800@umn.edu> <82E67714-3C9B-4FD1-B5BC-BC47124C87B3@delong.com> <54654AD9-E460-4545-BB9F-5A6A7E7B6CF5@arin.net>, <4A584426-7C0F-46E1-8818-0C91E51F43DD@ionity.com> Message-ID: <90709089-090D-457E-9EBA-A414296DC046@arin.net> On Apr 4, 2012, at 11:38 AM, "Alec Ginsberg" wrote: > Why isn't there a common backend that can accept input via mail or web? > > This easily could be accomplished so there would be nothing to maintain on the mail form that is different from the web site? We actually have a common backed for precisely these reasons, but that does not eliminate the ongoing effort that will be required to maintain email templates as policies are changed (the templates themselves, documentation, internal training, Q/A steps when doing new releases, etc.) If this is desired by the community, it can be done, but it means additional costs for maintaining three (rather than two) full input methods. Thanks! /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN From owen at delong.com Wed Apr 4 12:12:42 2012 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 09:12:42 -0700 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method In-Reply-To: References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <7E7773B523E82C478734E793E58F69E7694E5FDD@SBS2011.thewireinc.local> <4F7B9AE8.1090800@umn.edu> <82E67714-3C9B-4FD1-B5BC-BC47124C87B3@delong.com> Message-ID: Being able to paste an email style template into a giant text box on ARIN online would be an acceptable alternative, however, I think the code to parse that would be as much effort as the code to parse an email, so I'm not sure it saves ARIN anything and it is still a little more overhead on my side of the process. Owen On Apr 4, 2012, at 8:15 AM, Gary T. Giesen wrote: > To address some of the security and email parsing concerns, what about the possibility of having a giant text box in ARIN Online where multiple email templates can be pasted in at once (and of course saved for later editing before submission). This would ensure users are properly authenticated, allow bulk submission of requests, allow easy editing/copy/paste, and no format changes for people who are already used to the email templates (other than the transport method). > > I would imagine that would go a long way towards addressing some of Owen's concerns while not having to deal most of the issues of receiving and parsing email. I would imagine the maintenance headache would be greatly reduced as well. > > GTG > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong > Sent: April 4, 2012 1:17 AM > To: David Farmer > Cc: arin-discuss List; John Curran > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method > > > On Apr 3, 2012, at 5:50 PM, David Farmer wrote: > >> On 4/3/12 19:29 CDT, Kevin Blumberg wrote: >> >>> I would also suggest that the ability to save a draft of a submission be supported. >> >> As I was reading this thread I was thinking much the same thing. I was thinking about why people might want Email Templates back vs. a Web Form. Other than not wanting to change, I thought about how the work flow has changed. With a email template you had a form you could work on offline and collect all the information you needed and fill it in as you go. Then submit the form, via email when you had it complete. >> > > You also had: > > 1. A single consolidated document you could review as a cohesive unit. > 2. Easy navigation back and forth checking the document for internal consistency > 3. A set of pre-defined well documented fields. > 4. The ability to easily attach files ad-hoc and reference them within justification fields > (ARIN On-Line pretends to have this, but, the file checking rarely accepts my files > in spite of them conforming to the rules specified. These problems have proven > intermittent and nearly impossible to track down so far.) > 5. Full-text email updates and the ability to easily transfer the template in progress > back and forth between myself and my clients for review, update, etc. prior to > submission to ARIN. > > The work flow has changed substantially and is costing my clients on average $500-$750 more per request just in my time alone. > >> With the Web Form, I believe as implemented, you essentially need all the info for a request all at once, then you do the data entry and submit it. If you could save partially completed web forms and create your own partially complete templates, maybe we can keep the kind of workflow we had with email templates but keep moving forward with the other improvements ARIN Online has brought. >> > > It's much worse than that. You have to navigate several disconnected pages in sequence with no useful ability to navigate back and forth in the process. It's not entirely clear from the first page what will be requested on the subsequent pages, etc. > >> I have to say I like ARIN Online and the many improvements, but the web form based workflow can be frustrating at times. So is workflow the real issue here? >> > > Most definitely, but, in so many ways, it's hard to imagine making the web-based workflow as useful as the email-based one was. > > Owen > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From dk at intuix.com Wed Apr 4 12:17:04 2012 From: dk at intuix.com (Dmitry Kohmanyuk) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 19:17:04 +0300 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <385C2A7A-58F9-4F0A-89A9-23A6ECD883FC@intuix.com> On Apr 4, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Alec Ginsberg wrote: > eMail is sent clear text? Not true. TLS (SSL) for SMTP was in use for many years. See http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3207.txt (published 2002). Look at Received: headers of several messages in your INBOX -- chances are that most of them were encrypted all the way (including initial submission on port 587. Your client also can (and should) use TLS when fetching responses IMAP protocol. Thus, no cleartext in data path. ARIN MAY even enforce use of TLS on smtp server used for secure email template submission (I would not suggest making this change for all email sent to ARIN, of course -- and even for email templates it better be a secondary server. -- dk@ > Web Services can require SSL encrypted payloads. SMTP services, likewise. Example, for Exim server: http://www.exim.org/exim-html-current/doc/html/spec_html/ch39.html From owen at delong.com Wed Apr 4 12:19:15 2012 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 09:19:15 -0700 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <053A924C-8808-40CC-A529-1AF6EAB2A60A@delong.com> Yes, if we're going to use secure email, it really should be S/MIME. PGP is so 1990s. Owen On Apr 4, 2012, at 8:52 AM, Robert Marder wrote: > That's really an issue of secure communication, not authentication. > > Personally, I would like to see some kind of challenge response to email template submissions. PGP email is a pain to implement, and those of us such as myself that routinely use web email instead of rich client email will continue to be able to use templates (as most webmail clients can't do PGP email). > > On 04.04.2012 10:46, Alec Ginsberg wrote: >> eMail is sent clear text? >> >> Web Services can require SSL encrypted payloads. >> >> On 4/4/12 10:42 AM, "Robert Marder" wrote: >> >>> I would imagine that doesn't really do anything as far as maintenance >>> costs, as all you're doing is changing the existing system of piping an >>> email into a program into piping a text box into a program. You're >>> basically replacing the smtp server with a web server and web form. >>> >>> As far as addressing the authentication issue, while that's true, there >>> are various other ways to do that, such as the API key already used, and >>> various other methods that could be considered in future. >>> >>> It's worth noting that the RESTful interface also has the same >>> authentication limitation reliant on an API key as email templates do at >>> the moment, so in light of that I don't really see an email >>> authentication issue (presuming members think all interfaces to ARIN >>> having equal levels of authentication is acceptable, as is the case now >>> with email vs RESTful interactions). >>> >>> On 04.04.2012 10:15, Gary T. Giesen wrote: >>>> To address some of the security and email parsing concerns, what >>>> about the possibility of having a giant text box in ARIN Online where >>>> multiple email templates can be pasted in at once (and of course >>>> saved >>>> for later editing before submission). This would ensure users are >>>> properly authenticated, allow bulk submission of requests, allow easy >>>> editing/copy/paste, and no format changes for people who are already >>>> used to the email templates (other than the transport method). >>>> >>>> I would imagine that would go a long way towards addressing some of >>>> Owen's concerns while not having to deal most of the issues of >>>> receiving and parsing email. I would imagine the maintenance headache >>>> would be greatly reduced as well. >>>> >>>> GTG >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong >>>> Sent: April 4, 2012 1:17 AM >>>> To: David Farmer >>>> Cc: arin-discuss List; John Curran >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry >>>> access method >>>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 3, 2012, at 5:50 PM, David Farmer wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 4/3/12 19:29 CDT, Kevin Blumberg wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I would also suggest that the ability to save a draft of a >>>>>> submission be supported. >>>>> >>>>> As I was reading this thread I was thinking much the same thing. I >>>>> was thinking about why people might want Email Templates back vs. a >>>>> Web Form. Other than not wanting to change, I thought about how the >>>>> work flow has changed. With a email template you had a form you could >>>>> work on offline and collect all the information you needed and fill it >>>>> in as you go. Then submit the form, via email when you had it >>>>> complete. >>>>> >>>> >>>> You also had: >>>> >>>> 1. A single consolidated document you could review as a cohesive >>>> unit. >>>> 2. Easy navigation back and forth checking the document for internal >>>> consistency >>>> 3. A set of pre-defined well documented fields. >>>> 4. The ability to easily attach files ad-hoc and reference them >>>> within justification fields >>>> (ARIN On-Line pretends to have this, but, the file checking rarely >>>> accepts my files >>>> in spite of them conforming to the rules specified. These problems >>>> have proven >>>> intermittent and nearly impossible to track down so far.) >>>> 5. Full-text email updates and the ability to easily transfer the >>>> template in progress >>>> back and forth between myself and my clients for review, update, >>>> etc. prior to >>>> submission to ARIN. >>>> >>>> The work flow has changed substantially and is costing my clients on >>>> average $500-$750 more per request just in my time alone. >>>> >>>>> With the Web Form, I believe as implemented, you essentially need >>>>> all the info for a request all at once, then you do the data entry and >>>>> submit it. If you could save partially completed web forms and create >>>>> your own partially complete templates, maybe we can keep the kind of >>>>> workflow we had with email templates but keep moving forward with the >>>>> other improvements ARIN Online has brought. >>>>> >>>> >>>> It's much worse than that. You have to navigate several disconnected >>>> pages in sequence with no useful ability to navigate back and forth >>>> in >>>> the process. It's not entirely clear from the first page what will be >>>> requested on the subsequent pages, etc. >>>> >>>>> I have to say I like ARIN Online and the many improvements, but the >>>>> web form based workflow can be frustrating at times. So is workflow >>>>> the real issue here? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Most definitely, but, in so many ways, it's hard to imagine making >>>> the web-based workflow as useful as the email-based one was. >>>> >>>> Owen >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARIN-Discuss >>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN >>>> Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARIN-Discuss >>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARIN-Discuss >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From owen at delong.com Wed Apr 4 12:16:52 2012 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 09:16:52 -0700 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method In-Reply-To: <54654AD9-E460-4545-BB9F-5A6A7E7B6CF5@arin.net> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <7E7773B523E82C478734E793E58F69E7694E5FDD@SBS2011.thewireinc.local> <4F7B9AE8.1090800@umn.edu> <82E67714-3C9B-4FD1-B5BC-BC47124C87B3@delong.com> <54654AD9-E460-4545-BB9F-5A6A7E7B6CF5@arin.net> Message-ID: Only for the simplest of templates. For the larger, more complex transactions (namely resource requests), where templates would provide the greatest utility (as I documented earlier), they are utterly unsupported and the ONLY available process is a non-automated non-RESTful multi-form multi-step uni-directional trudge through ARIN online with no ability to save and continue later, a relatively short fuse timeout, and no easy way to coordinate the effort among multiple people contributing data to the resource request. With the templates, I could fill out what I knew, send it off to my client with instructions for filling in some additional blanks, then they send it back to me. I review it, finalize it, and submit it to ARIN. With the AOL process, I have to remember what to ask my client for, try to make sure I have everything ready, log in and play beat-the-clock translating what my client gave me into ARIN's on-line forms. The AOL workflow for this task is, well, worthy of the AOL name. Owen On Apr 4, 2012, at 8:27 AM, John Curran wrote: > Gary - > > To be clear, we do already support email templates, including the > secure transmission of them via PGP (read: ) > > If we provided the ability to cut/paste them into ARIN Online, that > would also be secure, but would not address the issue that Owen raised > which is that he would like some of the email template types that are > no longer present (e.g. requesting new resources) to be developed and > make available. > > Doing this development and maintenance would require similar effort to > simply accepting them via email. Providing an alternative method to > submit may indeed be worth considering, but it is an orthogonal issue > to Owen's request. > > Thanks! > /John > > John Curran > President and CEO > ARIN > > On Apr 4, 2012, at 11:15 AM, Gary T. Giesen wrote: > >> To address some of the security and email parsing concerns, what about the possibility of having a giant text box in ARIN Online where multiple email templates can be pasted in at once (and of course saved for later editing before submission). This would ensure users are properly authenticated, allow bulk submission of requests, allow easy editing/copy/paste, and no format changes for people who are already used to the email templates (other than the transport method). >> >> I would imagine that would go a long way towards addressing some of Owen's concerns while not having to deal most of the issues of receiving and parsing email. I would imagine the maintenance headache would be greatly reduced as well. >> >> GTG >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong >> Sent: April 4, 2012 1:17 AM >> To: David Farmer >> Cc: arin-discuss List; John Curran >> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method >> >> >> On Apr 3, 2012, at 5:50 PM, David Farmer wrote: >> >>> On 4/3/12 19:29 CDT, Kevin Blumberg wrote: >>> >>>> I would also suggest that the ability to save a draft of a submission be supported. >>> >>> As I was reading this thread I was thinking much the same thing. I was thinking about why people might want Email Templates back vs. a Web Form. Other than not wanting to change, I thought about how the work flow has changed. With a email template you had a form you could work on offline and collect all the information you needed and fill it in as you go. Then submit the form, via email when you had it complete. >>> >> >> You also had: >> >> 1. A single consolidated document you could review as a cohesive unit. >> 2. Easy navigation back and forth checking the document for internal consistency >> 3. A set of pre-defined well documented fields. >> 4. The ability to easily attach files ad-hoc and reference them within justification fields >> (ARIN On-Line pretends to have this, but, the file checking rarely accepts my files >> in spite of them conforming to the rules specified. These problems have proven >> intermittent and nearly impossible to track down so far.) >> 5. Full-text email updates and the ability to easily transfer the template in progress >> back and forth between myself and my clients for review, update, etc. prior to >> submission to ARIN. >> >> The work flow has changed substantially and is costing my clients on average $500-$750 more per request just in my time alone. >> >>> With the Web Form, I believe as implemented, you essentially need all the info for a request all at once, then you do the data entry and submit it. If you could save partially completed web forms and create your own partially complete templates, maybe we can keep the kind of workflow we had with email templates but keep moving forward with the other improvements ARIN Online has brought. >>> >> >> It's much worse than that. You have to navigate several disconnected pages in sequence with no useful ability to navigate back and forth in the process. It's not entirely clear from the first page what will be requested on the subsequent pages, etc. >> >>> I have to say I like ARIN Online and the many improvements, but the web form based workflow can be frustrating at times. So is workflow the real issue here? >>> >> >> Most definitely, but, in so many ways, it's hard to imagine making the web-based workflow as useful as the email-based one was. >> >> Owen >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >> From ram at robertmarder.com Wed Apr 4 12:26:38 2012 From: ram at robertmarder.com (Robert Marder) Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2012 11:26:38 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method In-Reply-To: <385C2A7A-58F9-4F0A-89A9-23A6ECD883FC@intuix.com> References: <385C2A7A-58F9-4F0A-89A9-23A6ECD883FC@intuix.com> Message-ID: I would also add to that things like DKIM/DomainKeys which is in fairly common use and can/is used to verify that an email came from a given place. If ARIN combined this with the From: verification ARIN already supports, then even if someone intercepted your API key, they wouldn't be able to do anything with it via email unless they can send email from your email server, too. On 04.04.2012 11:17, Dmitry Kohmanyuk wrote: > On Apr 4, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Alec Ginsberg wrote: > >> eMail is sent clear text? > > Not true. TLS (SSL) for SMTP was in use for many years. See > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3207.txt (published 2002). > Look at Received: headers of several messages in your INBOX -- > chances are that most of them were encrypted all the way (including > initial submission on port 587. > > Your client also can (and should) use TLS when fetching responses > IMAP protocol. Thus, no cleartext in data path. > > ARIN MAY even enforce use of TLS on smtp server used for secure email > template submission (I would not suggest > making this change for all email sent to ARIN, of course -- and even > for email templates it better be a secondary server. > > -- dk@ > >> Web Services can require SSL encrypted payloads. > > SMTP services, likewise. Example, for Exim server: > http://www.exim.org/exim-html-current/doc/html/spec_html/ch39.html > > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From mstotyn at enmax.com Wed Apr 4 14:00:41 2012 From: mstotyn at enmax.com (Stotyn, Mel) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 18:00:41 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> Message-ID: <16377D27BA4075438EC19DE72E29156A2E132659@CORPMBXEP02.enmax.com> +1 retain email templates We like the automatic well-tested SMTP queuing, inherent transaction trail, easy of having any available operator process the thread, ease of forwarding response to our customers, ease of edit-and-resubmit if problems need fixing, more human-readable than XML template. Mel Stotyn Senior Operations Specialist ENMAX Envision Inc. mstotyn at enmax.com Phone: 403 514-3443 -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 12:28 PM To: arin-discuss List Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates A while back, ARIN stopped accepting email templates for resource requests. I believe in the discussions at members meetings prior to this, we were assured that the addition of a web interface would not remove the ability to use templates and I, for one, find templates to be much easier and more convenient than a web interface (especially the current state of ARIN on-line). Suggestion 2011.21 was submitted as an effort to address this. It is my understanding that 2011.21 has not received any support from the membership. If any of you are interested in having template functionality restored, ARIN needs to know that. If not, likely this suggestion is soon to be closed without any action and templates will forever fade into history. Owen _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. ************************************************************* This e-mail message is intended only for the person(s) named above and may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the person named or have not been authorized by them to access their mail, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail and any attachments without reading, saving, or forwarding. ************************************************************* From jcurran at arin.net Wed Apr 4 15:15:43 2012 From: jcurran at arin.net (John Curran) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 19:15:43 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method In-Reply-To: References: <385C2A7A-58F9-4F0A-89A9-23A6ECD883FC@intuix.com> Message-ID: <0C62D2C7-7F07-4B5E-AF8E-4BEFA11E602B@corp.arin.net> Folks - For the time being, let's stay focused on the question of suggestion 2011.21 (which would have ARIN enhance the present email template system to include requests for new and additional number resource requests, including the ongoing maintenance of these templates as number resource policy changes.) If you feel that you need additional functionality, then I'd ask you drop me an email, raise it during the Vancouver meeting, or make use of the ARIN Suggestion Process It is good to stay focused out of respect to many ARIN members who are on this list because they care about how ARIN invests its resources, but do not want to lose the majority of their day to numerous simultaneous threads. If you have views about whether this suggestion is worthwhile or not, please post (along with your reasoning if at all possible.) Thanks! /John John Curran President and CEO ARIN On Apr 4, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Robert Marder wrote: > I would also add to that things like DKIM/DomainKeys which is in fairly common use and can/is used to verify that an email came from a given place. If ARIN combined this with the From: verification ARIN already supports, then even if someone intercepted your API key, they wouldn't be able to do anything with it via email unless they can send email from your email server, too. > > On 04.04.2012 11:17, Dmitry Kohmanyuk wrote: >> On Apr 4, 2012, at 6:46 PM, Alec Ginsberg wrote: >> >>> eMail is sent clear text? >> >> Not true. TLS (SSL) for SMTP was in use for many years. See >> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3207.txt (published 2002). >> Look at Received: headers of several messages in your INBOX -- >> chances are that most of them were encrypted all the way (including >> initial submission on port 587. >> >> Your client also can (and should) use TLS when fetching responses >> IMAP protocol. Thus, no cleartext in data path. >> >> ARIN MAY even enforce use of TLS on smtp server used for secure email >> template submission (I would not suggest >> making this change for all email sent to ARIN, of course -- and even >> for email templates it better be a secondary server. >> >> -- dk@ >> >>> Web Services can require SSL encrypted payloads. >> >> SMTP services, likewise. Example, for Exim server: >> http://www.exim.org/exim-html-current/doc/html/spec_html/ch39.html >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From cja at daydream.com Wed Apr 4 17:18:36 2012 From: cja at daydream.com (CJ Aronson) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 23:18:36 +0200 Subject: [arin-discuss] Bringing back IP resource Request Templates In-Reply-To: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> Message-ID: Having used ARIN online a couple of times now to apply for address space for clients I do have a couple of comments. What I miss mostly about the email templates for resource requests are the following 1- I can't fill out part of the template and save it to send later as I gather all the necessary info. 2- I can't output the partially filled out template to send to my client to verify that it's what they want me to send and get their feedback. Or have it saved on ARIN online for my client to go in and look or add whatever they want to add. It would also be super helpful to have a text template I could send them with all the questions. For me requesting resources for a client is often a information gathering operation from several parts of the company and putting it all together to request what they need. 1&2 were very easy with the email templates. If those were possible with ARIN online then I wouldn't care that much about resource requests via email. Also I have found that for some reason ARIN online doesn't tell me when there is an update to one of my open tickets via email so I have to keep going there to see if there is any update on the ticket. Maybe that's a configuration option? I haven't had time to look around. ----Cathy On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 8:27 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: > A while back, ARIN stopped accepting email templates for resource requests. > > I believe in the discussions at members meetings prior to this, we were assured that the addition of a web interface would not remove the ability to use templates and I, for one, find templates to be much easier and more convenient than a web interface (especially the current state of ARIN on-line). > > Suggestion 2011.21 was submitted as an effort to address this. It is my understanding that 2011.21 has not received any support from the membership. If any of you are interested in having template functionality restored, ARIN needs to know that. If not, likely this suggestion is soon to be closed without any action and templates will forever fade into history. > > Owen > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From cja at daydream.com Wed Apr 4 18:29:23 2012 From: cja at daydream.com (CJ Aronson) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 00:29:23 +0200 Subject: [arin-discuss] Template-based email as a third registry access method In-Reply-To: <82E67714-3C9B-4FD1-B5BC-BC47124C87B3@delong.com> References: <57B736B4-9B57-4128-B8D9-51B654DFDCBE@delong.com> <7E7773B523E82C478734E793E58F69E7694E5FDD@SBS2011.thewireinc.local> <4F7B9AE8.1090800@umn.edu> <82E67714-3C9B-4FD1-B5BC-BC47124C87B3@delong.com> Message-ID: Thanks Owen.. this is a more complete list than I sent and I agree 100%. ----Cathy On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 7:17 AM, Owen DeLong wrote: > > On Apr 3, 2012, at 5:50 PM, David Farmer wrote: > >> On 4/3/12 19:29 CDT, Kevin Blumberg wrote: >> >>> I would also suggest that the ability to save a draft of a submission be supported. >> >> As I was reading this thread I was thinking much the same thing. ?I was thinking about why people might want Email Templates back vs. a Web Form. ?Other than not wanting to change, I thought about how the work flow has changed. ?With a email template you had a form you could work on offline and collect all the information you needed and fill it in as you go. Then submit the form, via email when you had it complete. >> > > You also had: > > ? ? ? ?1. ? ? ?A single consolidated document you could review as a cohesive unit. > ? ? ? ?2. ? ? ?Easy navigation back and forth checking the document for internal consistency > ? ? ? ?3. ? ? ?A set of pre-defined well documented fields. > ? ? ? ?4. ? ? ?The ability to easily attach files ad-hoc and reference them within justification fields > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?(ARIN On-Line pretends to have this, but, the file checking rarely accepts my files > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?in spite of them conforming to the rules specified. These problems have proven > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?intermittent and nearly impossible to track down so far.) > ? ? ? ?5. ? ? ?Full-text email updates and the ability to easily transfer the template in progress > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?back and forth between myself and my clients for review, update, etc. prior to > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?submission to ARIN. > > The work flow has changed substantially and is costing my clients on average $500-$750 more per request just in my > time alone. > >> With the Web Form, I believe as implemented, you essentially need all the info for a request all at once, then you do the data entry and submit it. ?If you could save partially completed web forms and create your own partially complete templates, maybe we can keep the kind of workflow we had with email templates but keep moving forward with the other improvements ARIN Online has brought. >> > > It's much worse than that. You have to navigate several disconnected pages in sequence with no useful ability to navigate back and forth in the process. It's not entirely clear from the first page what will be requested on the subsequent pages, etc. > >> I have to say I like ARIN Online and the many improvements, but the web form based workflow can be frustrating at times. ?So is workflow the real issue here? >> > > Most definitely, but, in so many ways, it's hard to imagine making the web-based workflow as useful as the email-based one was. > > Owen > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From egibson at uwo.ca Tue Apr 10 12:15:33 2012 From: egibson at uwo.ca (Ed Gibson) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 12:15:33 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Fwd: Request for Pricing In-Reply-To: <55162099086962809720827@BleauHausXPS> References: <55162099086962809720827@BleauHausXPS> Message-ID: <4F845CA5.9020402@uwo.ca> Just curious if other members are being strafed with this posting? It's my understanding that IPv4 assignments are are delegated to us and not "owned." i.e. Delegation does not equal ownership. Not that we have any to sell regardless of ownership. Ed Gibson Network Operations Manager Western University Canada -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Request for Pricing Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 08:39:08 -0400 From: John Stone Reply-To: info at rainmakerip.com To: noc at uwo.ca University of Western Ontario */Confidential/* RainMakerIP is a cutting edge IP Brokerage dealing for both buyers and sellers in the emerging market for IPv4 address blocks. We handle deals of all sizes from a single /24 up to /16 and beyond. We act in dual agency* for both buyer and seller to ensure both parties get the deal they want. If your organization has unused IPv4 subnets like *129.100.0.0* or some other range of any size, and are interested in monetizing this asset, for any duration or terms, please complete the RFP questionnaire below and reply to this email address. Likewise if you are interested in acquiring IPv4 subnets please fill out the appropriate sections in the RFP and return it to us. I am interested in information about becoming a Buyer Seller Lessor Lessee Size or number of IP Target Price Name of Organization Name of authorized Representative their email their phone number This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. *?Dual Agent? is obligated to a Seller in the same manner as a seller agent and is obligated to a buyer in the same manner as a buyer agent, except that a dual agent: has a duty to disclose to a buyer or seller any adverse material facts that are known to the dual agent regardless of any confidentiality considerations; and * may not disclose the following information without the written consent of the person whom the information is confidential; 1.the fact that the buyer is willing to pay more than the offered purchase price; 2.the fact that the seller is willing to accept less than the purchase price that the seller is asking for the property. 3.factors motivating either party to buy or sell; and 4.any information that a party indicates in writing to the dual agent is to be kept confidential. John Stone Partner RainMaker-IP 704.286.61.07 From Jack.Stevens at CenturyLink.com Tue Apr 10 12:33:35 2012 From: Jack.Stevens at CenturyLink.com (Stevens, Jack F) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:33:35 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] Fwd: Request for Pricing In-Reply-To: <4F845CA5.9020402@uwo.ca> References: <55162099086962809720827@BleauHausXPS> <4F845CA5.9020402@uwo.ca> Message-ID: <220BC22F971BA74383FD58436F1446AA01450300B9@PKDWES4V3.EQ.Intranet> I got one of those this morning, and generally get at least one a week from various organizations looking for anything from a /25 to a /16 from us. I generally just delete them; I don't want a "marketing organization" (spammer) on my networks. Jack Stevens Senior Engineer DNS - Web Hosting - Email Hosting - AUP - Networks - ARIN DMR CenturyLink Voice: 919-562-2715 | Fax: 919-562-2516 Subpoena/legal request fax 913-254-5800 Email:Jack.Stevens at CenturyLink.com 14111 Capital Blvd Wake Forest NC 27587 Mailstop: NCWKFR0104 Voice | Data | Internet | Entertainment -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Ed Gibson Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 12:16 PM To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net Subject: [arin-discuss] Fwd: Request for Pricing Just curious if other members are being strafed with this posting? It's my understanding that IPv4 assignments are are delegated to us and not "owned." i.e. Delegation does not equal ownership. Not that we have any to sell regardless of ownership. Ed Gibson Network Operations Manager Western University Canada -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Request for Pricing Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 08:39:08 -0400 From: John Stone Reply-To: info at rainmakerip.com To: noc at uwo.ca University of Western Ontario */Confidential/* RainMakerIP is a cutting edge IP Brokerage dealing for both buyers and sellers in the emerging market for IPv4 address blocks. We handle deals of all sizes from a single /24 up to /16 and beyond. We act in dual agency* for both buyer and seller to ensure both parties get the deal they want. If your organization has unused IPv4 subnets like *129.100.0.0* or some other range of any size, and are interested in monetizing this asset, for any duration or terms, please complete the RFP questionnaire below and reply to this email address. Likewise if you are interested in acquiring IPv4 subnets please fill out the appropriate sections in the RFP and return it to us. I am interested in information about becoming a Buyer Seller Lessor Lessee Size or number of IP Target Price Name of Organization Name of authorized Representative their email their phone number This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. *"Dual Agent" is obligated to a Seller in the same manner as a seller agent and is obligated to a buyer in the same manner as a buyer agent, except that a dual agent: has a duty to disclose to a buyer or seller any adverse material facts that are known to the dual agent regardless of any confidentiality considerations; and * may not disclose the following information without the written consent of the person whom the information is confidential; 1.the fact that the buyer is willing to pay more than the offered purchase price; 2.the fact that the seller is willing to accept less than the purchase price that the seller is asking for the property. 3.factors motivating either party to buy or sell; and 4.any information that a party indicates in writing to the dual agent is to be kept confidential. John Stone Partner RainMaker-IP 704.286.61.07 _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From Mike.Edl at imon.net Tue Apr 10 12:35:04 2012 From: Mike.Edl at imon.net (Edl, Mike) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 11:35:04 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] Fwd: Request for Pricing In-Reply-To: <4F845CA5.9020402@uwo.ca> Message-ID: Have not seen this, however, I have heard of companies charging a fee to gain IP addresses from other companies. Look's like this business is capitalizing on the need and monetizing it. Mike Edl Chief Technology Officer 625 First St SE, Suite 520 Cedar Rapids, IA 52401 T 319-261-4612 C 319-743-5076 Mike.edl at imon.net Celebrating 5 years of service to our community! On 4/10/12 11:15 AM, "Ed Gibson" wrote: >Just curious if other members are being strafed with this posting? > >It's my understanding that IPv4 assignments are are delegated to us and >not "owned." i.e. Delegation >does not equal ownership. > >Not that we have any to sell regardless of ownership. > >Ed Gibson >Network Operations Manager >Western University Canada > > >-------- Original Message -------- >Subject: Request for Pricing >Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 08:39:08 -0400 >From: John Stone >Reply-To: info at rainmakerip.com >To: noc at uwo.ca University of Western Ontario > > > >*/Confidential/* > >RainMakerIP is a cutting edge IP Brokerage dealing for both buyers and >sellers in the emerging >market for IPv4 address blocks. We handle deals of all sizes from a >single /24 up to /16 and beyond. >We act in dual agency* for both buyer and seller to ensure both parties >get the deal they want. If >your organization has unused IPv4 subnets like *129.100.0.0* or some >other range of any size, and >are interested in monetizing this asset, for any duration or terms, >please complete the RFP >questionnaire below and reply to this email address. Likewise if you are >interested in acquiring >IPv4 subnets please fill out the appropriate sections in the RFP and >return it to us. > >I am interested in information about becoming a > > > > > >Buyer > > > >Seller > > > >Lessor > > > >Lessee > > > > > >Size or number of IP > > > > > >Target Price > > > > > >Name of Organization > > > > > >Name of authorized Representative > > > >their email > > > >their phone number > > > >This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and >intended solely for the use of the >individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received >this email in error please >notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information >and is intended only for >the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not >disseminate, distribute or >copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you >have received this e-mail by >mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the >intended recipient you are >notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in >reliance on the contents of >this information is strictly prohibited. > >*?Dual Agent? is obligated to a Seller in the same manner as a seller >agent and is obligated to a >buyer in the same manner as a buyer agent, except that a dual agent: > >has a duty to disclose to a buyer or seller any adverse material facts >that are known to the dual >agent regardless of any confidentiality considerations; and > > * may not disclose the following information without the written >consent of the person whom the > information is confidential; > >1.the fact that the buyer is willing to pay more than the offered >purchase price; > >2.the fact that the seller is willing to accept less than the purchase >price that the seller is >asking for the property. > >3.factors motivating either party to buy or sell; and > >4.any information that a party indicates in writing to the dual agent is >to be kept confidential. > >John Stone >Partner >RainMaker-IP >704.286.61.07 > >_______________________________________________ >ARIN-Discuss >You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From danno at appliedi.net Tue Apr 10 13:35:27 2012 From: danno at appliedi.net (Dan Farrell) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 10:35:27 -0700 Subject: [arin-discuss] Fwd: Request for Pricing In-Reply-To: <4F845CA5.9020402@uwo.ca> References: <55162099086962809720827@BleauHausXPS> <4F845CA5.9020402@uwo.ca> Message-ID: <06275CB4814DA94AB880409FDD8D779C1C1471808B@EXMBXCLUS01.citservers.local> Got one this morning. Made me all frowny-face. -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Ed Gibson Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 12:16 PM To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net Subject: [arin-discuss] Fwd: Request for Pricing Just curious if other members are being strafed with this posting? It's my understanding that IPv4 assignments are are delegated to us and not "owned." i.e. Delegation does not equal ownership. Not that we have any to sell regardless of ownership. Ed Gibson Network Operations Manager Western University Canada -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Request for Pricing Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 08:39:08 -0400 From: John Stone Reply-To: info at rainmakerip.com To: noc at uwo.ca University of Western Ontario */Confidential/* RainMakerIP is a cutting edge IP Brokerage dealing for both buyers and sellers in the emerging market for IPv4 address blocks. We handle deals of all sizes from a single /24 up to /16 and beyond. We act in dual agency* for both buyer and seller to ensure both parties get the deal they want. If your organization has unused IPv4 subnets like *129.100.0.0* or some other range of any size, and are interested in monetizing this asset, for any duration or terms, please complete the RFP questionnaire below and reply to this email address. Likewise if you are interested in acquiring IPv4 subnets please fill out the appropriate sections in the RFP and return it to us. I am interested in information about becoming a Buyer Seller Lessor Lessee Size or number of IP Target Price Name of Organization Name of authorized Representative their email their phone number This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. *"Dual Agent" is obligated to a Seller in the same manner as a seller agent and is obligated to a buyer in the same manner as a buyer agent, except that a dual agent: has a duty to disclose to a buyer or seller any adverse material facts that are known to the dual agent regardless of any confidentiality considerations; and * may not disclose the following information without the written consent of the person whom the information is confidential; 1.the fact that the buyer is willing to pay more than the offered purchase price; 2.the fact that the seller is willing to accept less than the purchase price that the seller is asking for the property. 3.factors motivating either party to buy or sell; and 4.any information that a party indicates in writing to the dual agent is to be kept confidential. John Stone Partner RainMaker-IP 704.286.61.07 _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues.