From bjohnson at drtel.com Mon Mar 1 09:26:39 2010 From: bjohnson at drtel.com (Brian Johnson) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 08:26:39 -0600 Subject: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories In-Reply-To: <9D7AA2E6-0CC5-4B53-93B3-EDA813D80D80@delong.com> References: <0D9FF6B3-9FB9-4FDA-BD2F-909767CDF228@delong.com> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE23A@ex01.drtel.lan> <3F6B4116-C379-498D-9772-C6219DB84A58@delong.com> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE34B@ex01.drtel.lan> <9D7AA2E6-0CC5-4B53-93B3-EDA813D80D80@delong.com> Message-ID: <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE352@ex01.drtel.lan> Here's how I think it should go. If I'm an LRSA holder and want IPv6 space, I would have to sign a normal RSA for the IPv6 space and pay the fees as a regular space holder, just like any other RSA holder. I am willing to encourage IPv6 as long as we don't get into a battle between legacy and non legacy holders over fees. Neither should be getting a "better deal" than the other. I hope this makes my position clear. - Brian From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 9:26 PM To: Brian Johnson Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Not really... They get a special rate on the initial IPv6 assignment, but, after that, they're paying the same $100/year that every other end-user is paying. The intent here is to induce them to both embrace IPv6 _AND_ start paying for their IPv4 under end-user terms rather than keep their legacy status and exclusion from the ARIN community and policies altogether so long as they can avoid dealing with IPv6. As I see it, the alternative is that we have yet another group of users with an additional incentive to push back against IPv6 which I regard as harmful to the internet in general. Owen On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:59 PM, Brian Johnson wrote: Owen, I would still be opposed under the idea that they would deserve special rates. This would perpetuate the idea of multiple classes of members / space holders that I would like to see diminished if not eliminated. - Brian From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 5:16 AM To: Brian Johnson Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Brian, The IPv6 space under this suggestion would be subject to regular RSA, not LRSA. Only the legacy space would be covered by the LRSA. With that clarification, do you still oppose the suggestion? (I'll note that the suggestion relates to reducing fees, ARIN policy already provides for them to get the space on these terms). Owen On Feb 25, 2010, at 6:27 AM, Brian Johnson wrote: I oppose this proposal as it maintains the current divide between legacy space and "regular" space. If a legacy holder wants IPv6 space, they would need to sign a regular RSA and join the rest of us. - Brian From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 10:39 PM To: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories I have submitted a formal suggestion to the ACSP recommending that the BoT waive initial assignment fees for IPv6 when the applicant is a legacy resource holder that has signed the LRSA. I believe this helps remove most of the barriers to entry for legacy IPv4 holders to migrate to IPv6 and is in the best interests of the community. ARIN has informed me that the matter will be placed on the Board's finance committee agenda. As such, I would like to encourage members here who have an opinion on the matter to let the board know what you think, ideally by posting a message to this list. Owen Below is the message I received from ARIN and the original suggestion I submitted: Owen, This is in response to your suggestion noted below and assigned number 2010.1. Thank you for your suggestion relating to charging no initial fee related to request for an initial IPv6 allocation and/or assignments for Legacy Holders that have signed the ARIN Legacy Registration Service Agreement. As this relates to fees, this will be added to the ARIN Board's Finance Committee agenda for 2010. Some other information related to this suggestion is that the current IPv6 waiver for allocations for initial requests and renewals in 2010 is a 50% fee waiver. For requests in 2011, the allocation fees will be 25% waived. In terms of assignments, the initial fee is not waived. Clients requesting assignment resources pay an initial fee per request of address space and thereafter pay annual allocation or maintenance fees related to the Organizational ID as a whole. Initial fees are to cover the effort related to reviewing and analyzing the request, whereas maintenance fees are designed to cover the overhead of maintaining objects in the database. Recent changes were implemented in mid 2009 for organizations with both ARIN-issued and Legacy Resources. They are assessed an Annual Fee based on the ARIN-issued resources and not charged the Legacy resource maintenance fee. ARIN is reliant on its active membership to help it better serve the community and we want to commend you for your continuing activism and service. Regards, Member Services American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) ********************************************* 2010.1 01-18-2010 16:58:30 ARIN should offer legacy holders that sign the LRSA the opportunity to receive an appropriate IPv6 allocation or assignment for no initial fee. The applicable standard renewal fees would apply thereafter. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, copying, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aaron at wholesaleinternet.net Tue Mar 2 12:11:56 2010 From: aaron at wholesaleinternet.net (Aaron Wendel) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 11:11:56 -0600 Subject: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories In-Reply-To: <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE352@ex01.drtel.lan> References: <0D9FF6B3-9FB9-4FDA-BD2F-909767CDF228@delong.com> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE23A@ex01.drtel.lan> <3F6B4116-C379-498D-9772-C6219DB84A58@delong.com> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE34B@ex01.drtel.lan> <9D7AA2E6-0CC5-4B53-93B3-EDA813D80D80@delong.com> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE352@ex01.drtel.lan> Message-ID: <026b01caba2b$770a1530$651e3f90$@net> I would be all for ARIN extending the current fee waivers to encompass both legacy space holders who sign an LRSA for their old space and an RSA for the new space as well as end users. I just put in for some critical infrastructure v6 space and was a little surprised when I got hit for full freight as an end user. It?s a non starter for v6 on my little, local, free exchange as I assume it would be for many others. Just level the playing field so everyone pays on the same scale. That would be a start. J Aaron From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Brian Johnson Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:27 AM To: Owen DeLong Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Here?s how I think it should go. If I?m an LRSA holder and want IPv6 space, I would have to sign a normal RSA for the IPv6 space and pay the fees as a regular space holder, just like any other RSA holder. I am willing to encourage IPv6 as long as we don?t get into a battle between legacy and non legacy holders over fees. Neither should be getting a ?better deal? than the other. I hope this makes my position clear. - Brian From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 9:26 PM To: Brian Johnson Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Not really... They get a special rate on the initial IPv6 assignment, but, after that, they're paying the same $100/year that every other end-user is paying. The intent here is to induce them to both embrace IPv6 _AND_ start paying for their IPv4 under end-user terms rather than keep their legacy status and exclusion from the ARIN community and policies altogether so long as they can avoid dealing with IPv6. As I see it, the alternative is that we have yet another group of users with an additional incentive to push back against IPv6 which I regard as harmful to the internet in general. Owen On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:59 PM, Brian Johnson wrote: Owen, I would still be opposed under the idea that they would deserve special rates. This would perpetuate the idea of multiple classes of members / space holders that I would like to see diminished if not eliminated. - Brian From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 5:16 AM To: Brian Johnson Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Brian, The IPv6 space under this suggestion would be subject to regular RSA, not LRSA. Only the legacy space would be covered by the LRSA. With that clarification, do you still oppose the suggestion? (I'll note that the suggestion relates to reducing fees, ARIN policy already provides for them to get the space on these terms). Owen On Feb 25, 2010, at 6:27 AM, Brian Johnson wrote: I oppose this proposal as it maintains the current divide between legacy space and ?regular? space. If a legacy holder wants IPv6 space, they would need to sign a regular RSA and join the rest of us. - Brian From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 10:39 PM To: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories I have submitted a formal suggestion to the ACSP recommending that the BoT waive initial assignment fees for IPv6 when the applicant is a legacy resource holder that has signed the LRSA. I believe this helps remove most of the barriers to entry for legacy IPv4 holders to migrate to IPv6 and is in the best interests of the community. ARIN has informed me that the matter will be placed on the Board's finance committee agenda. As such, I would like to encourage members here who have an opinion on the matter to let the board know what you think, ideally by posting a message to this list. Owen Below is the message I received from ARIN and the original suggestion I submitted: Owen, This is in response to your suggestion noted below and assigned number 2010.1. Thank you for your suggestion relating to charging no initial fee related to request for an initial IPv6 allocation and/or assignments for Legacy Holders that have signed the ARIN Legacy Registration Service Agreement. As this relates to fees, this will be added to the ARIN Board's Finance Committee agenda for 2010. Some other information related to this suggestion is that the current IPv6 waiver for allocations for initial requests and renewals in 2010 is a 50% fee waiver. For requests in 2011, the allocation fees will be 25% waived. In terms of assignments, the initial fee is not waived. Clients requesting assignment resources pay an initial fee per request of address space and thereafter pay annual allocation or maintenance fees related to the Organizational ID as a whole. Initial fees are to cover the effort related to reviewing and analyzing the request, whereas maintenance fees are designed to cover the overhead of maintaining objects in the database. Recent changes were implemented in mid 2009 for organizations with both ARIN-issued and Legacy Resources. They are assessed an Annual Fee based on the ARIN-issued resources and not charged the Legacy resource maintenance fee. ARIN is reliant on its active membership to help it better serve the community and we want to commend you for your continuing activism and service. Regards, Member Services American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) ********************************************* 2010.1 01-18-2010 16:58:30 ARIN should offer legacy holders that sign the LRSA the opportunity to receive an appropriate IPv6 allocation or assignment for no initial fee. The applicable standard renewal fees would apply thereafter. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, copying, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Thank you. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2716 - Release Date: 03/01/10 01:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjohnson at drtel.com Tue Mar 2 12:14:50 2010 From: bjohnson at drtel.com (Brian Johnson) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 11:14:50 -0600 Subject: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories In-Reply-To: <026b01caba2b$770a1530$651e3f90$@net> References: <0D9FF6B3-9FB9-4FDA-BD2F-909767CDF228@delong.com> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE23A@ex01.drtel.lan> <3F6B4116-C379-498D-9772-C6219DB84A58@delong.com> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE34B@ex01.drtel.lan> <9D7AA2E6-0CC5-4B53-93B3-EDA813D80D80@delong.com> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE352@ex01.drtel.lan> <026b01caba2b$770a1530$651e3f90$@net> Message-ID: <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE3B4@ex01.drtel.lan> Exactly! Everyone should be treated the same relative to IPv6 requests. - Brian From: Aaron Wendel [mailto:aaron at wholesaleinternet.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:12 AM To: Brian Johnson; 'Owen DeLong' Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories I would be all for ARIN extending the current fee waivers to encompass both legacy space holders who sign an LRSA for their old space and an RSA for the new space as well as end users. I just put in for some critical infrastructure v6 space and was a little surprised when I got hit for full freight as an end user. It?s a non starter for v6 on my little, local, free exchange as I assume it would be for many others. Just level the playing field so everyone pays on the same scale. That would be a start. J Aaron From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Brian Johnson Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:27 AM To: Owen DeLong Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Here?s how I think it should go. If I?m an LRSA holder and want IPv6 space, I would have to sign a normal RSA for the IPv6 space and pay the fees as a regular space holder, just like any other RSA holder. I am willing to encourage IPv6 as long as we don?t get into a battle between legacy and non legacy holders over fees. Neither should be getting a ?better deal? than the other. I hope this makes my position clear. - Brian From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 9:26 PM To: Brian Johnson Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Not really... They get a special rate on the initial IPv6 assignment, but, after that, they're paying the same $100/year that every other end-user is paying. The intent here is to induce them to both embrace IPv6 _AND_ start paying for their IPv4 under end-user terms rather than keep their legacy status and exclusion from the ARIN community and policies altogether so long as they can avoid dealing with IPv6. As I see it, the alternative is that we have yet another group of users with an additional incentive to push back against IPv6 which I regard as harmful to the internet in general. Owen On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:59 PM, Brian Johnson wrote: Owen, I would still be opposed under the idea that they would deserve special rates. This would perpetuate the idea of multiple classes of members / space holders that I would like to see diminished if not eliminated. - Brian From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 5:16 AM To: Brian Johnson Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Brian, The IPv6 space under this suggestion would be subject to regular RSA, not LRSA. Only the legacy space would be covered by the LRSA. With that clarification, do you still oppose the suggestion? (I'll note that the suggestion relates to reducing fees, ARIN policy already provides for them to get the space on these terms). Owen On Feb 25, 2010, at 6:27 AM, Brian Johnson wrote: I oppose this proposal as it maintains the current divide between legacy space and ?regular? space. If a legacy holder wants IPv6 space, they would need to sign a regular RSA and join the rest of us. - Brian From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 10:39 PM To: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories I have submitted a formal suggestion to the ACSP recommending that the BoT waive initial assignment fees for IPv6 when the applicant is a legacy resource holder that has signed the LRSA. I believe this helps remove most of the barriers to entry for legacy IPv4 holders to migrate to IPv6 and is in the best interests of the community. ARIN has informed me that the matter will be placed on the Board's finance committee agenda. As such, I would like to encourage members here who have an opinion on the matter to let the board know what you think, ideally by posting a message to this list. Owen Below is the message I received from ARIN and the original suggestion I submitted: Owen, This is in response to your suggestion noted below and assigned number 2010.1. Thank you for your suggestion relating to charging no initial fee related to request for an initial IPv6 allocation and/or assignments for Legacy Holders that have signed the ARIN Legacy Registration Service Agreement. As this relates to fees, this will be added to the ARIN Board's Finance Committee agenda for 2010. Some other information related to this suggestion is that the current IPv6 waiver for allocations for initial requests and renewals in 2010 is a 50% fee waiver. For requests in 2011, the allocation fees will be 25% waived. In terms of assignments, the initial fee is not waived. Clients requesting assignment resources pay an initial fee per request of address space and thereafter pay annual allocation or maintenance fees related to the Organizational ID as a whole. Initial fees are to cover the effort related to reviewing and analyzing the request, whereas maintenance fees are designed to cover the overhead of maintaining objects in the database. Recent changes were implemented in mid 2009 for organizations with both ARIN-issued and Legacy Resources. They are assessed an Annual Fee based on the ARIN-issued resources and not charged the Legacy resource maintenance fee. ARIN is reliant on its active membership to help it better serve the community and we want to commend you for your continuing activism and service. Regards, Member Services American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) ********************************************* 2010.1 01-18-2010 16:58:30 ARIN should offer legacy holders that sign the LRSA the opportunity to receive an appropriate IPv6 allocation or assignment for no initial fee. The applicable standard renewal fees would apply thereafter. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, copying, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Thank you. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2716 - Release Date: 03/01/10 01:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nate.lyon at nfldwifi.net Tue Mar 2 12:19:21 2010 From: nate.lyon at nfldwifi.net (Nathaniel B. Lyon) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 11:19:21 -0600 Subject: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories In-Reply-To: <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE3B4@ex01.drtel.lan> References: <0D9FF6B3-9FB9-4FDA-BD2F-909767CDF228@delong.com> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE23A@ex01.drtel.lan> <3F6B4116-C379-498D-9772-C6219DB84A58@delong.com> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE34B@ex01.drtel.lan> <9D7AA2E6-0CC5-4B53-93B3-EDA813D80D80@delong.com> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE352@ex01.drtel.lan> <026b01caba2b$770a1530$651e3f90$@net> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE3B4@ex01.drtel.lan> Message-ID: <24F349B8030E5A47A8BDC2FE0E13D13EE8E1B539@nfldnet6.NFLDWIFI.LOCAL> I am chiming in very late, so maybe this has already been addressed. So what are the plans for the guys who have already purchased IPv6 assignments from ARIN? I guess what are going to be getting out of this asides from a possibly quicker IPv6 roll-out across the board? My apologies, I have not been following this string as close as I should be. From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Brian Johnson Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:15 AM To: Aaron Wendel; Owen DeLong Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Exactly! Everyone should be treated the same relative to IPv6 requests. - Brian From: Aaron Wendel [mailto:aaron at wholesaleinternet.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:12 AM To: Brian Johnson; 'Owen DeLong' Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories I would be all for ARIN extending the current fee waivers to encompass both legacy space holders who sign an LRSA for their old space and an RSA for the new space as well as end users. I just put in for some critical infrastructure v6 space and was a little surprised when I got hit for full freight as an end user. It?s a non starter for v6 on my little, local, free exchange as I assume it would be for many others. Just level the playing field so everyone pays on the same scale. That would be a start. ? Aaron From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Brian Johnson Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:27 AM To: Owen DeLong Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Here?s how I think it should go. If I?m an LRSA holder and want IPv6 space, I would have to sign a normal RSA for the IPv6 space and pay the fees as a regular space holder, just like any other RSA holder. I am willing to encourage IPv6 as long as we don?t get into a battle between legacy and non legacy holders over fees. Neither should be getting a ?better deal? than the other. I hope this makes my position clear. - Brian From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 9:26 PM To: Brian Johnson Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Not really... They get a special rate on the initial IPv6 assignment, but, after that, they're paying the same $100/year that every other end-user is paying. The intent here is to induce them to both embrace IPv6 _AND_ start paying for their IPv4 under end-user terms rather than keep their legacy status and exclusion from the ARIN community and policies altogether so long as they can avoid dealing with IPv6. As I see it, the alternative is that we have yet another group of users with an additional incentive to push back against IPv6 which I regard as harmful to the internet in general. Owen On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:59 PM, Brian Johnson wrote: Owen, I would still be opposed under the idea that they would deserve special rates. This would perpetuate the idea of multiple classes of members / space holders that I would like to see diminished if not eliminated. - Brian From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 5:16 AM To: Brian Johnson Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Brian, The IPv6 space under this suggestion would be subject to regular RSA, not LRSA. Only the legacy space would be covered by the LRSA. With that clarification, do you still oppose the suggestion? (I'll note that the suggestion relates to reducing fees, ARIN policy already provides for them to get the space on these terms). Owen On Feb 25, 2010, at 6:27 AM, Brian Johnson wrote: I oppose this proposal as it maintains the current divide between legacy space and ?regular? space. If a legacy holder wants IPv6 space, they would need to sign a regular RSA and join the rest of us. - Brian From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 10:39 PM To: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories I have submitted a formal suggestion to the ACSP recommending that the BoT waive initial assignment fees for IPv6 when the applicant is a legacy resource holder that has signed the LRSA. I believe this helps remove most of the barriers to entry for legacy IPv4 holders to migrate to IPv6 and is in the best interests of the community. ARIN has informed me that the matter will be placed on the Board's finance committee agenda. As such, I would like to encourage members here who have an opinion on the matter to let the board know what you think, ideally by posting a message to this list. Owen Below is the message I received from ARIN and the original suggestion I submitted: Owen, This is in response to your suggestion noted below and assigned number 2010.1. Thank you for your suggestion relating to charging no initial fee related to request for an initial IPv6 allocation and/or assignments for Legacy Holders that have signed the ARIN Legacy Registration Service Agreement. As this relates to fees, this will be added to the ARIN Board's Finance Committee agenda for 2010. Some other information related to this suggestion is that the current IPv6 waiver for allocations for initial requests and renewals in 2010 is a 50% fee waiver. For requests in 2011, the allocation fees will be 25% waived. In terms of assignments, the initial fee is not waived. Clients requesting assignment resources pay an initial fee per request of address space and thereafter pay annual allocation or maintenance fees related to the Organizational ID as a whole. Initial fees are to cover the effort related to reviewing and analyzing the request, whereas maintenance fees are designed to cover the overhead of maintaining objects in the database. Recent changes were implemented in mid 2009 for organizations with both ARIN-issued and Legacy Resources. They are assessed an Annual Fee based on the ARIN-issued resources and not charged the Legacy resource maintenance fee. ARIN is reliant on its active membership to help it better serve the community and we want to commend you for your continuing activism and service. Regards, Member Services American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) ********************************************* 2010.1 01-18-2010 16:58:30 ARIN should offer legacy holders that sign the LRSA the opportunity to receive an appropriate IPv6 allocation or assignment for no initial fee. The applicable standard renewal fees would apply thereafter. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, copying, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Thank you. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2716 - Release Date: 03/01/10 01:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjohnson at drtel.com Tue Mar 2 12:31:00 2010 From: bjohnson at drtel.com (Brian Johnson) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 11:31:00 -0600 Subject: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver forIPv6assignments to LRSA signatories In-Reply-To: <24F349B8030E5A47A8BDC2FE0E13D13EE8E1B539@nfldnet6.NFLDWIFI.LOCAL> References: <0D9FF6B3-9FB9-4FDA-BD2F-909767CDF228@delong.com><29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE23A@ex01.drtel.lan><3F6B4116-C379-498D-9772-C6219DB84A58@delong.com><29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE34B@ex01.drtel.lan><9D7AA2E6-0CC5-4B53-93B3-EDA813D80D80@delong.com><29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE352@ex01.drtel.lan><026b01caba2b$770a1530$651e3f90$@net> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE3B4@ex01.drtel.lan> <24F349B8030E5A47A8BDC2FE0E13D13EE8E1B539@nfldnet6.NFLDWIFI.LOCAL> Message-ID: <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE3B9@ex01.drtel.lan> I don?t know how many times this has been said, but I am getting concerned about the concept of ?ownership? relative to address space. YOU DO NOT PURCHASE SPACE. The fees paid are to pay for the maintenance of the space you are being allocated for use. For details on fees, please read the fee schedule (https://www.arin.net/fees/fee_schedule.html) at the ARIN website. - Brian From: Nathaniel B. Lyon [mailto:nate.lyon at nfldwifi.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:19 AM To: Brian Johnson; Aaron Wendel; Owen DeLong Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver forIPv6assignments to LRSA signatories I am chiming in very late, so maybe this has already been addressed. So what are the plans for the guys who have already purchased IPv6 assignments from ARIN? I guess what are going to be getting out of this asides from a possibly quicker IPv6 roll-out across the board? My apologies, I have not been following this string as close as I should be. From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Brian Johnson Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:15 AM To: Aaron Wendel; Owen DeLong Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Exactly! Everyone should be treated the same relative to IPv6 requests. - Brian From: Aaron Wendel [mailto:aaron at wholesaleinternet.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:12 AM To: Brian Johnson; 'Owen DeLong' Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories I would be all for ARIN extending the current fee waivers to encompass both legacy space holders who sign an LRSA for their old space and an RSA for the new space as well as end users. I just put in for some critical infrastructure v6 space and was a little surprised when I got hit for full freight as an end user. It?s a non starter for v6 on my little, local, free exchange as I assume it would be for many others. Just level the playing field so everyone pays on the same scale. That would be a start. J Aaron From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Brian Johnson Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:27 AM To: Owen DeLong Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Here?s how I think it should go. If I?m an LRSA holder and want IPv6 space, I would have to sign a normal RSA for the IPv6 space and pay the fees as a regular space holder, just like any other RSA holder. I am willing to encourage IPv6 as long as we don?t get into a battle between legacy and non legacy holders over fees. Neither should be getting a ?better deal? than the other. I hope this makes my position clear. - Brian From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 9:26 PM To: Brian Johnson Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Not really... They get a special rate on the initial IPv6 assignment, but, after that, they're paying the same $100/year that every other end-user is paying. The intent here is to induce them to both embrace IPv6 _AND_ start paying for their IPv4 under end-user terms rather than keep their legacy status and exclusion from the ARIN community and policies altogether so long as they can avoid dealing with IPv6. As I see it, the alternative is that we have yet another group of users with an additional incentive to push back against IPv6 which I regard as harmful to the internet in general. Owen On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:59 PM, Brian Johnson wrote: Owen, I would still be opposed under the idea that they would deserve special rates. This would perpetuate the idea of multiple classes of members / space holders that I would like to see diminished if not eliminated. - Brian From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 5:16 AM To: Brian Johnson Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Brian, The IPv6 space under this suggestion would be subject to regular RSA, not LRSA. Only the legacy space would be covered by the LRSA. With that clarification, do you still oppose the suggestion? (I'll note that the suggestion relates to reducing fees, ARIN policy already provides for them to get the space on these terms). Owen On Feb 25, 2010, at 6:27 AM, Brian Johnson wrote: I oppose this proposal as it maintains the current divide between legacy space and ?regular? space. If a legacy holder wants IPv6 space, they would need to sign a regular RSA and join the rest of us. - Brian From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 10:39 PM To: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories I have submitted a formal suggestion to the ACSP recommending that the BoT waive initial assignment fees for IPv6 when the applicant is a legacy resource holder that has signed the LRSA. I believe this helps remove most of the barriers to entry for legacy IPv4 holders to migrate to IPv6 and is in the best interests of the community. ARIN has informed me that the matter will be placed on the Board's finance committee agenda. As such, I would like to encourage members here who have an opinion on the matter to let the board know what you think, ideally by posting a message to this list. Owen Below is the message I received from ARIN and the original suggestion I submitted: Owen, This is in response to your suggestion noted below and assigned number 2010.1. Thank you for your suggestion relating to charging no initial fee related to request for an initial IPv6 allocation and/or assignments for Legacy Holders that have signed the ARIN Legacy Registration Service Agreement. As this relates to fees, this will be added to the ARIN Board's Finance Committee agenda for 2010. Some other information related to this suggestion is that the current IPv6 waiver for allocations for initial requests and renewals in 2010 is a 50% fee waiver. For requests in 2011, the allocation fees will be 25% waived. In terms of assignments, the initial fee is not waived. Clients requesting assignment resources pay an initial fee per request of address space and thereafter pay annual allocation or maintenance fees related to the Organizational ID as a whole. Initial fees are to cover the effort related to reviewing and analyzing the request, whereas maintenance fees are designed to cover the overhead of maintaining objects in the database. Recent changes were implemented in mid 2009 for organizations with both ARIN-issued and Legacy Resources. They are assessed an Annual Fee based on the ARIN-issued resources and not charged the Legacy resource maintenance fee. ARIN is reliant on its active membership to help it better serve the community and we want to commend you for your continuing activism and service. Regards, Member Services American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) ********************************************* 2010.1 01-18-2010 16:58:30 ARIN should offer legacy holders that sign the LRSA the opportunity to receive an appropriate IPv6 allocation or assignment for no initial fee. The applicable standard renewal fees would apply thereafter. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, copying, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Thank you. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2716 - Release Date: 03/01/10 01:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nate.lyon at nfldwifi.net Tue Mar 2 12:33:10 2010 From: nate.lyon at nfldwifi.net (Nathaniel B. Lyon) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 11:33:10 -0600 Subject: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver forIPv6assignments to LRSA signatories In-Reply-To: <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE3B9@ex01.drtel.lan> References: <0D9FF6B3-9FB9-4FDA-BD2F-909767CDF228@delong.com><29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE23A@ex01.drtel.lan><3F6B4116-C379-498D-9772-C6219DB84A58@delong.com><29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE34B@ex01.drtel.lan><9D7AA2E6-0CC5-4B53-93B3-EDA813D80D80@delong.com><29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE352@ex01.drtel.lan><026b01caba2b$770a1530$651e3f90$@net> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE3B4@ex01.drtel.lan> <24F349B8030E5A47A8BDC2FE0E13D13EE8E1B539@nfldnet6.NFLDWIFI.LOCAL> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE3B9@ex01.drtel.lan> Message-ID: <24F349B8030E5A47A8BDC2FE0E13D13EE8E1B53C@nfldnet6.NFLDWIFI.LOCAL> Tomato, tomato. Sorry I used the wrong terminology. From: Brian Johnson [mailto:bjohnson at drtel.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:31 AM To: Nathaniel B. Lyon; Aaron Wendel; Owen DeLong Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver forIPv6assignments to LRSA signatories I don?t know how many times this has been said, but I am getting concerned about the concept of ?ownership? relative to address space. YOU DO NOT PURCHASE SPACE. The fees paid are to pay for the maintenance of the space you are being allocated for use. For details on fees, please read the fee schedule (https://www.arin.net/fees/fee_schedule.html) at the ARIN website. - Brian From: Nathaniel B. Lyon [mailto:nate.lyon at nfldwifi.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:19 AM To: Brian Johnson; Aaron Wendel; Owen DeLong Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver forIPv6assignments to LRSA signatories I am chiming in very late, so maybe this has already been addressed. So what are the plans for the guys who have already purchased IPv6 assignments from ARIN? I guess what are going to be getting out of this asides from a possibly quicker IPv6 roll-out across the board? My apologies, I have not been following this string as close as I should be. From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Brian Johnson Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:15 AM To: Aaron Wendel; Owen DeLong Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Exactly! Everyone should be treated the same relative to IPv6 requests. - Brian From: Aaron Wendel [mailto:aaron at wholesaleinternet.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:12 AM To: Brian Johnson; 'Owen DeLong' Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories I would be all for ARIN extending the current fee waivers to encompass both legacy space holders who sign an LRSA for their old space and an RSA for the new space as well as end users. I just put in for some critical infrastructure v6 space and was a little surprised when I got hit for full freight as an end user. It?s a non starter for v6 on my little, local, free exchange as I assume it would be for many others. Just level the playing field so everyone pays on the same scale. That would be a start. ? Aaron From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Brian Johnson Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:27 AM To: Owen DeLong Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Here?s how I think it should go. If I?m an LRSA holder and want IPv6 space, I would have to sign a normal RSA for the IPv6 space and pay the fees as a regular space holder, just like any other RSA holder. I am willing to encourage IPv6 as long as we don?t get into a battle between legacy and non legacy holders over fees. Neither should be getting a ?better deal? than the other. I hope this makes my position clear. - Brian From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 9:26 PM To: Brian Johnson Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Not really... They get a special rate on the initial IPv6 assignment, but, after that, they're paying the same $100/year that every other end-user is paying. The intent here is to induce them to both embrace IPv6 _AND_ start paying for their IPv4 under end-user terms rather than keep their legacy status and exclusion from the ARIN community and policies altogether so long as they can avoid dealing with IPv6. As I see it, the alternative is that we have yet another group of users with an additional incentive to push back against IPv6 which I regard as harmful to the internet in general. Owen On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:59 PM, Brian Johnson wrote: Owen, I would still be opposed under the idea that they would deserve special rates. This would perpetuate the idea of multiple classes of members / space holders that I would like to see diminished if not eliminated. - Brian From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 5:16 AM To: Brian Johnson Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Brian, The IPv6 space under this suggestion would be subject to regular RSA, not LRSA. Only the legacy space would be covered by the LRSA. With that clarification, do you still oppose the suggestion? (I'll note that the suggestion relates to reducing fees, ARIN policy already provides for them to get the space on these terms). Owen On Feb 25, 2010, at 6:27 AM, Brian Johnson wrote: I oppose this proposal as it maintains the current divide between legacy space and ?regular? space. If a legacy holder wants IPv6 space, they would need to sign a regular RSA and join the rest of us. - Brian From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 10:39 PM To: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories I have submitted a formal suggestion to the ACSP recommending that the BoT waive initial assignment fees for IPv6 when the applicant is a legacy resource holder that has signed the LRSA. I believe this helps remove most of the barriers to entry for legacy IPv4 holders to migrate to IPv6 and is in the best interests of the community. ARIN has informed me that the matter will be placed on the Board's finance committee agenda. As such, I would like to encourage members here who have an opinion on the matter to let the board know what you think, ideally by posting a message to this list. Owen Below is the message I received from ARIN and the original suggestion I submitted: Owen, This is in response to your suggestion noted below and assigned number 2010.1. Thank you for your suggestion relating to charging no initial fee related to request for an initial IPv6 allocation and/or assignments for Legacy Holders that have signed the ARIN Legacy Registration Service Agreement. As this relates to fees, this will be added to the ARIN Board's Finance Committee agenda for 2010. Some other information related to this suggestion is that the current IPv6 waiver for allocations for initial requests and renewals in 2010 is a 50% fee waiver. For requests in 2011, the allocation fees will be 25% waived. In terms of assignments, the initial fee is not waived. Clients requesting assignment resources pay an initial fee per request of address space and thereafter pay annual allocation or maintenance fees related to the Organizational ID as a whole. Initial fees are to cover the effort related to reviewing and analyzing the request, whereas maintenance fees are designed to cover the overhead of maintaining objects in the database. Recent changes were implemented in mid 2009 for organizations with both ARIN-issued and Legacy Resources. They are assessed an Annual Fee based on the ARIN-issued resources and not charged the Legacy resource maintenance fee. ARIN is reliant on its active membership to help it better serve the community and we want to commend you for your continuing activism and service. Regards, Member Services American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) ********************************************* 2010.1 01-18-2010 16:58:30 ARIN should offer legacy holders that sign the LRSA the opportunity to receive an appropriate IPv6 allocation or assignment for no initial fee. The applicable standard renewal fees would apply thereafter. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, copying, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Thank you. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2716 - Release Date: 03/01/10 01:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aaron at wholesaleinternet.net Tue Mar 2 12:43:05 2010 From: aaron at wholesaleinternet.net (Aaron Wendel) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 11:43:05 -0600 Subject: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver forIPv6assignments to LRSA signatories In-Reply-To: <24F349B8030E5A47A8BDC2FE0E13D13EE8E1B53C@nfldnet6.NFLDWIFI.LOCAL> References: <0D9FF6B3-9FB9-4FDA-BD2F-909767CDF228@delong.com><29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE23A@ex01.drtel.lan><3F6B4116-C379-498D-9772-C6219DB84A58@delong.com><29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE34B@ex01.drtel.lan><9D7AA2E6-0CC5-4B53-93B3-EDA813D80D80@delong.com><29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE352@ex01.drtel.lan><026b01caba2b$770a1530$651e3f90$@net> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE3B4@ex01.drtel.lan> <24F349B8030E5A47A8BDC2FE0E13D13EE8E1B539@nfldnet6.NFLDWIFI.LOCAL> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE3B9@ex01.drtel.lan> <24F349B8030E5A47A8BDC2FE0E13D13EE8E1B53C@nfldnet6.NFLDWIFI.LOCAL> Message-ID: <028e01caba2f$d470c530$7d524f90$@net> And on the subject of wording, the fee waiver wording is very vague. It says ?organization?. Not ISP, End user or anything else. It could be argued that if you?re a legacy holder, you are an organization paying a yearly registration fee to ARIN and would qualify under #1 of the criteria: Initial Allocation Registration Fee Waiver Eligibility 1. Organizations that pay fees for a direct allocation of IPv4 address space have no fees associated with their initial IPv6 allocation. 2. Organizations associated with other types of resources (IPv4 or IPv6 assignments, ASNs) or who do not hold resources are subject to the Declining Fee Waiver Schedule for IPv6 Allocations. From: Nathaniel B. Lyon [mailto:nate.lyon at nfldwifi.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:33 AM To: Brian Johnson; Aaron Wendel; Owen DeLong Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver forIPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Tomato, tomato. Sorry I used the wrong terminology. From: Brian Johnson [mailto:bjohnson at drtel.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:31 AM To: Nathaniel B. Lyon; Aaron Wendel; Owen DeLong Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver forIPv6assignments to LRSA signatories I don?t know how many times this has been said, but I am getting concerned about the concept of ?ownership? relative to address space. YOU DO NOT PURCHASE SPACE. The fees paid are to pay for the maintenance of the space you are being allocated for use. For details on fees, please read the fee schedule (https://www.arin.net/fees/fee_schedule.html) at the ARIN website. - Brian From: Nathaniel B. Lyon [mailto:nate.lyon at nfldwifi.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:19 AM To: Brian Johnson; Aaron Wendel; Owen DeLong Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver forIPv6assignments to LRSA signatories I am chiming in very late, so maybe this has already been addressed. So what are the plans for the guys who have already purchased IPv6 assignments from ARIN? I guess what are going to be getting out of this asides from a possibly quicker IPv6 roll-out across the board? My apologies, I have not been following this string as close as I should be. From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Brian Johnson Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:15 AM To: Aaron Wendel; Owen DeLong Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Exactly! Everyone should be treated the same relative to IPv6 requests. - Brian From: Aaron Wendel [mailto:aaron at wholesaleinternet.net] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:12 AM To: Brian Johnson; 'Owen DeLong' Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories I would be all for ARIN extending the current fee waivers to encompass both legacy space holders who sign an LRSA for their old space and an RSA for the new space as well as end users. I just put in for some critical infrastructure v6 space and was a little surprised when I got hit for full freight as an end user. It?s a non starter for v6 on my little, local, free exchange as I assume it would be for many others. Just level the playing field so everyone pays on the same scale. That would be a start. J Aaron From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Brian Johnson Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:27 AM To: Owen DeLong Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Here?s how I think it should go. If I?m an LRSA holder and want IPv6 space, I would have to sign a normal RSA for the IPv6 space and pay the fees as a regular space holder, just like any other RSA holder. I am willing to encourage IPv6 as long as we don?t get into a battle between legacy and non legacy holders over fees. Neither should be getting a ?better deal? than the other. I hope this makes my position clear. - Brian From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 9:26 PM To: Brian Johnson Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Not really... They get a special rate on the initial IPv6 assignment, but, after that, they're paying the same $100/year that every other end-user is paying. The intent here is to induce them to both embrace IPv6 _AND_ start paying for their IPv4 under end-user terms rather than keep their legacy status and exclusion from the ARIN community and policies altogether so long as they can avoid dealing with IPv6. As I see it, the alternative is that we have yet another group of users with an additional incentive to push back against IPv6 which I regard as harmful to the internet in general. Owen On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:59 PM, Brian Johnson wrote: Owen, I would still be opposed under the idea that they would deserve special rates. This would perpetuate the idea of multiple classes of members / space holders that I would like to see diminished if not eliminated. - Brian From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 5:16 AM To: Brian Johnson Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories Brian, The IPv6 space under this suggestion would be subject to regular RSA, not LRSA. Only the legacy space would be covered by the LRSA. With that clarification, do you still oppose the suggestion? (I'll note that the suggestion relates to reducing fees, ARIN policy already provides for them to get the space on these terms). Owen On Feb 25, 2010, at 6:27 AM, Brian Johnson wrote: I oppose this proposal as it maintains the current divide between legacy space and ?regular? space. If a legacy holder wants IPv6 space, they would need to sign a regular RSA and join the rest of us. - Brian From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 10:39 PM To: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories I have submitted a formal suggestion to the ACSP recommending that the BoT waive initial assignment fees for IPv6 when the applicant is a legacy resource holder that has signed the LRSA. I believe this helps remove most of the barriers to entry for legacy IPv4 holders to migrate to IPv6 and is in the best interests of the community. ARIN has informed me that the matter will be placed on the Board's finance committee agenda. As such, I would like to encourage members here who have an opinion on the matter to let the board know what you think, ideally by posting a message to this list. Owen Below is the message I received from ARIN and the original suggestion I submitted: Owen, This is in response to your suggestion noted below and assigned number 2010.1. Thank you for your suggestion relating to charging no initial fee related to request for an initial IPv6 allocation and/or assignments for Legacy Holders that have signed the ARIN Legacy Registration Service Agreement. As this relates to fees, this will be added to the ARIN Board's Finance Committee agenda for 2010. Some other information related to this suggestion is that the current IPv6 waiver for allocations for initial requests and renewals in 2010 is a 50% fee waiver. For requests in 2011, the allocation fees will be 25% waived. In terms of assignments, the initial fee is not waived. Clients requesting assignment resources pay an initial fee per request of address space and thereafter pay annual allocation or maintenance fees related to the Organizational ID as a whole. Initial fees are to cover the effort related to reviewing and analyzing the request, whereas maintenance fees are designed to cover the overhead of maintaining objects in the database. Recent changes were implemented in mid 2009 for organizations with both ARIN-issued and Legacy Resources. They are assessed an Annual Fee based on the ARIN-issued resources and not charged the Legacy resource maintenance fee. ARIN is reliant on its active membership to help it better serve the community and we want to commend you for your continuing activism and service. Regards, Member Services American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) ********************************************* 2010.1 01-18-2010 16:58:30 ARIN should offer legacy holders that sign the LRSA the opportunity to receive an appropriate IPv6 allocation or assignment for no initial fee. The applicable standard renewal fees would apply thereafter. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, copying, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Thank you. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2716 - Release Date: 03/01/10 01:34:00 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2716 - Release Date: 03/02/10 01:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Mar 2 17:03:28 2010 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 06:03:28 +0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories In-Reply-To: <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE3B4@ex01.drtel.lan> References: <0D9FF6B3-9FB9-4FDA-BD2F-909767CDF228@delong.com> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE23A@ex01.drtel.lan> <3F6B4116-C379-498D-9772-C6219DB84A58@delong.com> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE34B@ex01.drtel.lan> <9D7AA2E6-0CC5-4B53-93B3-EDA813D80D80@delong.com> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE352@ex01.drtel.lan> <026b01caba2b$770a1530$651e3f90$@net> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE3B4@ex01.drtel.lan> Message-ID: I'll point out that the current fee waivers only cover allocations and not assignments. The intent here was to get fee waivers for assignments. I'm not opposed to extending them to everyone. However, I do think that any fee waiver offered to legacy holders should come with the requirement that the legacy space be brought under LRSA. It might be hard to implement a general fee waiver in such a way because at that point, the legacy holder can simply avoid mentioning their legacy space and register a new org to get around that requirement. As stated earlier, my primary intent in this was to induce legacy holders to: 1. Bring their legacy space under LRSA 2. Move forward with IPv6 From the legacy holder's perspective, as things stand now, there are few benefits and significant costs to doing either. This fee waiver would provide some benefit to signing the LRSA and remove the cost of moving forward with IPv6. Owen On Mar 3, 2010, at 1:14 AM, Brian Johnson wrote: > Exactly! Everyone should be treated the same relative to IPv6 requests. > > - Brian > > From: Aaron Wendel [mailto:aaron at wholesaleinternet.net] > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:12 AM > To: Brian Johnson; 'Owen DeLong' > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories > > I would be all for ARIN extending the current fee waivers to encompass both legacy space holders who sign an LRSA for their old space and an RSA for the new space as well as end users. I just put in for some critical infrastructure v6 space and was a little surprised when I got hit for full freight as an end user. It?s a non starter for v6 on my little, local, free exchange as I assume it would be for many others. Just level the playing field so everyone pays on the same scale. That would be a start. J > > Aaron > > > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Brian Johnson > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:27 AM > To: Owen DeLong > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories > > Here?s how I think it should go. If I?m an LRSA holder and want IPv6 space, I would have to sign a normal RSA for the IPv6 space and pay the fees as a regular space holder, just like any other RSA holder. I am willing to encourage IPv6 as long as we don?t get into a battle between legacy and non legacy holders over fees. Neither should be getting a ?better deal? than the other. > > I hope this makes my position clear. > > - Brian > > From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] > Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 9:26 PM > To: Brian Johnson > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories > > Not really... They get a special rate on the initial IPv6 assignment, but, after that, they're paying the same $100/year > that every other end-user is paying. > > The intent here is to induce them to both embrace IPv6 _AND_ start paying for their IPv4 under end-user terms > rather than keep their legacy status and exclusion from the ARIN community and policies altogether so long > as they can avoid dealing with IPv6. > > As I see it, the alternative is that we have yet another group of users with an additional incentive to push back > against IPv6 which I regard as harmful to the internet in general. > > Owen > > On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:59 PM, Brian Johnson wrote: > > > Owen, > > I would still be opposed under the idea that they would deserve special rates. This would perpetuate the idea of multiple classes of members / space holders that I would like to see diminished if not eliminated. > > - Brian > > From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] > Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 5:16 AM > To: Brian Johnson > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories > > Brian, > The IPv6 space under this suggestion would be subject to regular RSA, not LRSA. > Only the legacy space would be covered by the LRSA. With that clarification, do you > still oppose the suggestion? (I'll note that the suggestion relates to reducing fees, ARIN > policy already provides for them to get the space on these terms). > > Owen > > On Feb 25, 2010, at 6:27 AM, Brian Johnson wrote: > > > I oppose this proposal as it maintains the current divide between legacy space and ?regular? space. If a legacy holder wants IPv6 space, they would need to sign a regular RSA and join the rest of us. > > - Brian > > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong > Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 10:39 PM > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories > > I have submitted a formal suggestion to the ACSP recommending that the BoT waive initial > assignment fees for IPv6 when the applicant is a legacy resource holder that has signed > the LRSA. > > I believe this helps remove most of the barriers to entry for legacy IPv4 holders to migrate > to IPv6 and is in the best interests of the community. > > ARIN has informed me that the matter will be placed on the Board's finance committee > agenda. As such, I would like to encourage members here who have an opinion on the > matter to let the board know what you think, ideally by posting a message to this list. > > > Owen > > > Below is the message I received from ARIN and the original suggestion I submitted: > > Owen, > > > This is in response to your suggestion noted below and assigned number 2010.1. > > Thank you for your suggestion relating to charging no initial fee related to request for an initial IPv6 allocation and/or assignments for Legacy Holders that have signed the ARIN Legacy Registration Service Agreement. As this relates to fees, this will be added to the ARIN Board's Finance Committee agenda for 2010. > > Some other information related to this suggestion is that the current IPv6 waiver for allocations for initial requests and renewals in 2010 is a 50% fee waiver. For requests in 2011, the allocation fees will be 25% waived. > In terms of assignments, the initial fee is not waived. Clients requesting assignment resources pay an initial fee per request of address space and thereafter pay annual allocation or maintenance fees related to the Organizational ID as a whole. Initial fees are to cover the effort related to reviewing and analyzing the request, whereas maintenance fees are designed to cover the overhead of maintaining objects in the database. > > Recent changes were implemented in mid 2009 for organizations with both ARIN-issued and Legacy Resources. They are assessed an Annual Fee based on the ARIN-issued resources and not charged the Legacy resource maintenance fee. > > ARIN is reliant on its active membership to help it better serve the community and we want to commend you for your continuing activism and service. > > Regards, > > Member Services > American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) > > ********************************************* > > 2010.1 > 01-18-2010 16:58:30 > > ARIN should offer legacy holders that sign the LRSA the opportunity to receive an appropriate IPv6 allocation or assignment for no initial fee. The applicable standard renewal fees would apply thereafter. > > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the > intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, > copying, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please > contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Thank you. > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2716 - Release Date: 03/01/10 01:34:00 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From owen at delong.com Tue Mar 2 17:06:39 2010 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 06:06:39 +0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver forIPv6assignments to LRSA signatories In-Reply-To: <028e01caba2f$d470c530$7d524f90$@net> References: <0D9FF6B3-9FB9-4FDA-BD2F-909767CDF228@delong.com><29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE23A@ex01.drtel.lan><3F6B4116-C379-498D-9772-C6219DB84A58@delong.com><29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE34B@ex01.drtel.lan><9D7AA2E6-0CC5-4B53-93B3-EDA813D80D80@delong.com><29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE352@ex01.drtel.lan><026b01caba2b$770a1530$651e3f90$@net> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE3B4@ex01.drtel.lan> <24F349B8030E5A47A8BDC2FE0E13D13EE8E1B539@nfldnet6.NFLDWIFI.LOCAL> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE3B9@ex01.drtel.lan> <24F349B8030E5A47A8BDC2FE0E13D13EE8E1B53C@nfldnet6.NFLDWIFI.LOCAL> <028e01caba2f$d470c530$7d524f90$@net> Message-ID: If you are getting an allocation, you are an ISP/LIR. End users get Assignements, not allocations. There currently are not any fee waivers for assignments. Owen On Mar 3, 2010, at 1:43 AM, Aaron Wendel wrote: > And on the subject of wording, the fee waiver wording is very vague. It says ?organization?. Not ISP, End user or anything else. It could be argued that if you?re a legacy holder, you are an organization paying a yearly registration fee to ARIN and would qualify under #1 of the criteria: > > Initial Allocation Registration Fee Waiver Eligibility > Organizations that pay fees for a direct allocation of IPv4 address space have no fees associated with their initial IPv6 allocation. > Organizations associated with other types of resources (IPv4 or IPv6 assignments, ASNs) or who do not hold resources are subject to the Declining Fee Waiver Schedule for IPv6 Allocations. > > > From: Nathaniel B. Lyon [mailto:nate.lyon at nfldwifi.net] > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:33 AM > To: Brian Johnson; Aaron Wendel; Owen DeLong > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver forIPv6assignments to LRSA signatories > > Tomato, tomato. Sorry I used the wrong terminology. > > From: Brian Johnson [mailto:bjohnson at drtel.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:31 AM > To: Nathaniel B. Lyon; Aaron Wendel; Owen DeLong > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver forIPv6assignments to LRSA signatories > > I don?t know how many times this has been said, but I am getting concerned about the concept of ?ownership? relative to address space. YOU DO NOT PURCHASE SPACE. The fees paid are to pay for the maintenance of the space you are being allocated for use. > > For details on fees, please read the fee schedule (https://www.arin.net/fees/fee_schedule.html) at the ARIN website. > > - Brian > > From: Nathaniel B. Lyon [mailto:nate.lyon at nfldwifi.net] > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:19 AM > To: Brian Johnson; Aaron Wendel; Owen DeLong > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver forIPv6assignments to LRSA signatories > > I am chiming in very late, so maybe this has already been addressed. So what are the plans for the guys who have already purchased IPv6 assignments from ARIN? I guess what are going to be getting out of this asides from a possibly quicker IPv6 roll-out across the board? > > My apologies, I have not been following this string as close as I should be. > > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Brian Johnson > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:15 AM > To: Aaron Wendel; Owen DeLong > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories > > Exactly! Everyone should be treated the same relative to IPv6 requests. > > - Brian > > From: Aaron Wendel [mailto:aaron at wholesaleinternet.net] > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:12 AM > To: Brian Johnson; 'Owen DeLong' > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories > > I would be all for ARIN extending the current fee waivers to encompass both legacy space holders who sign an LRSA for their old space and an RSA for the new space as well as end users. I just put in for some critical infrastructure v6 space and was a little surprised when I got hit for full freight as an end user. It?s a non starter for v6 on my little, local, free exchange as I assume it would be for many others. Just level the playing field so everyone pays on the same scale. That would be a start. J > > Aaron > > > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Brian Johnson > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:27 AM > To: Owen DeLong > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories > > Here?s how I think it should go. If I?m an LRSA holder and want IPv6 space, I would have to sign a normal RSA for the IPv6 space and pay the fees as a regular space holder, just like any other RSA holder. I am willing to encourage IPv6 as long as we don?t get into a battle between legacy and non legacy holders over fees. Neither should be getting a ?better deal? than the other. > > I hope this makes my position clear. > > - Brian > > From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] > Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 9:26 PM > To: Brian Johnson > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories > > Not really... They get a special rate on the initial IPv6 assignment, but, after that, they're paying the same $100/year > that every other end-user is paying. > > The intent here is to induce them to both embrace IPv6 _AND_ start paying for their IPv4 under end-user terms > rather than keep their legacy status and exclusion from the ARIN community and policies altogether so long > as they can avoid dealing with IPv6. > > As I see it, the alternative is that we have yet another group of users with an additional incentive to push back > against IPv6 which I regard as harmful to the internet in general. > > Owen > > On Feb 27, 2010, at 12:59 PM, Brian Johnson wrote: > > > Owen, > > I would still be opposed under the idea that they would deserve special rates. This would perpetuate the idea of multiple classes of members / space holders that I would like to see diminished if not eliminated. > > - Brian > > From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] > Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 5:16 AM > To: Brian Johnson > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories > > Brian, > The IPv6 space under this suggestion would be subject to regular RSA, not LRSA. > Only the legacy space would be covered by the LRSA. With that clarification, do you > still oppose the suggestion? (I'll note that the suggestion relates to reducing fees, ARIN > policy already provides for them to get the space on these terms). > > Owen > > On Feb 25, 2010, at 6:27 AM, Brian Johnson wrote: > > > I oppose this proposal as it maintains the current divide between legacy space and ?regular? space. If a legacy holder wants IPv6 space, they would need to sign a regular RSA and join the rest of us. > > - Brian > > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong > Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 10:39 PM > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories > > I have submitted a formal suggestion to the ACSP recommending that the BoT waive initial > assignment fees for IPv6 when the applicant is a legacy resource holder that has signed > the LRSA. > > I believe this helps remove most of the barriers to entry for legacy IPv4 holders to migrate > to IPv6 and is in the best interests of the community. > > ARIN has informed me that the matter will be placed on the Board's finance committee > agenda. As such, I would like to encourage members here who have an opinion on the > matter to let the board know what you think, ideally by posting a message to this list. > > > Owen > > > Below is the message I received from ARIN and the original suggestion I submitted: > > Owen, > > > This is in response to your suggestion noted below and assigned number 2010.1. > > Thank you for your suggestion relating to charging no initial fee related to request for an initial IPv6 allocation and/or assignments for Legacy Holders that have signed the ARIN Legacy Registration Service Agreement. As this relates to fees, this will be added to the ARIN Board's Finance Committee agenda for 2010. > > Some other information related to this suggestion is that the current IPv6 waiver for allocations for initial requests and renewals in 2010 is a 50% fee waiver. For requests in 2011, the allocation fees will be 25% waived. > In terms of assignments, the initial fee is not waived. Clients requesting assignment resources pay an initial fee per request of address space and thereafter pay annual allocation or maintenance fees related to the Organizational ID as a whole. Initial fees are to cover the effort related to reviewing and analyzing the request, whereas maintenance fees are designed to cover the overhead of maintaining objects in the database. > > Recent changes were implemented in mid 2009 for organizations with both ARIN-issued and Legacy Resources. They are assessed an Annual Fee based on the ARIN-issued resources and not charged the Legacy resource maintenance fee. > > ARIN is reliant on its active membership to help it better serve the community and we want to commend you for your continuing activism and service. > > Regards, > > Member Services > American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) > > ********************************************* > > 2010.1 > 01-18-2010 16:58:30 > > ARIN should offer legacy holders that sign the LRSA the opportunity to receive an appropriate IPv6 allocation or assignment for no initial fee. The applicable standard renewal fees would apply thereafter. > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the > intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, > copying, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please > contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Thank you. > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2716 - Release Date: 03/01/10 01:34:00 > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2716 - Release Date: 03/02/10 01:34:00 > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve at ibctech.ca Tue Mar 2 18:13:58 2010 From: steve at ibctech.ca (Steve Bertrand) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 18:13:58 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver forIPv6assignments to LRSA signatories In-Reply-To: References: <0D9FF6B3-9FB9-4FDA-BD2F-909767CDF228@delong.com><29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE23A@ex01.drtel.lan><3F6B4116-C379-498D-9772-C6219DB84A58@delong.com><29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE34B@ex01.drtel.lan><9D7AA2E6-0CC5-4B53-93B3-EDA813D80D80@delong.com><29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE352@ex01.drtel.lan><026b01caba2b$770a1530$651e3f90$@net> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE3B4@ex01.drtel.lan> <24F349B8030E5A47A8BDC2FE0E13D13EE8E1B539@nfldnet6.NFLDWIFI.LOCAL> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE3B9@ex01.drtel.lan> <24F349B8030E5A47A8BDC2FE0E13D13EE8E1B53C@nfldnet6.NFLDWIFI.LOCAL> <028e01caba2f$d470c530$7d524f90$@net> Message-ID: <4B8D9BB6.2090300@ibctech.ca> On 2010.03.02 17:06, Owen DeLong wrote: > If you are getting an allocation, you are an ISP/LIR. End users get > Assignements, not allocations. > There currently are not any fee waivers for assignments. ...and there shouldn't be imho. End users can achieve cost savings by signing up with an ISP who assigns them IPv6 address space for no extra cost to the bandwidth/connection package that they purchase. A financial value must be seen up-front by end-users who want to hold a routing slot, and personally, I don't mind if that value translates into fees paid to ARIN for the management of the space. If there isn't any up front cost to an end-user, then IPv6 space could be treated as throwaway [insert free email supplier] accounts, whereas ARIN would bear the brunt of the maintenance, and operators would curse. Steve From steve at ibctech.ca Tue Mar 2 18:20:07 2010 From: steve at ibctech.ca (Steve Bertrand) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 18:20:07 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver for IPv6assignments to LRSA signatories In-Reply-To: References: <0D9FF6B3-9FB9-4FDA-BD2F-909767CDF228@delong.com> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE23A@ex01.drtel.lan> <3F6B4116-C379-498D-9772-C6219DB84A58@delong.com> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE34B@ex01.drtel.lan> <9D7AA2E6-0CC5-4B53-93B3-EDA813D80D80@delong.com> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE352@ex01.drtel.lan> <026b01caba2b$770a1530$651e3f90$@net> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE3B4@ex01.drtel.lan> Message-ID: <4B8D9D27.7060508@ibctech.ca> On 2010.03.02 17:03, Owen DeLong wrote: > I'll point out that the current fee waivers only cover allocations and > not assignments. > > The intent here was to get fee waivers for assignments. I'm not opposed > to extending them to > everyone. However, I do think that any fee waiver offered to legacy > holders should come > with the requirement that the legacy space be brought under LRSA. My personal belief: - do not offer assignments a fee waiver - do not waste time trying to bring legacy v4 space under an (L)RSA - give everyone who asks v6 addresses, without asking if they have legacy v4 space. This should not be a condition - apply fee waivers to allocations, but not to assignments I'm assigning space to my clients. If they can get ARIN assigned space without having to pay anything up front, it pushes all of the costs of allowing that routing slot on my network without the client being able to assign a dollar figure on such. At least if an assignee has to pay _something_ up front, it may make them think twice about doing it. Those who know they need the space will pay. Steve From steve at ibctech.ca Tue Mar 2 19:28:39 2010 From: steve at ibctech.ca (Steve Bertrand) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 19:28:39 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN Toronto Meeting Message-ID: <4B8DAD37.6090100@ibctech.ca> In the event that I might not be at the Toronto meeting, I'm just curious to know if there will be anyone traversing the area just east of Toronto by car(avan) to get there. If so, it would be great if we could meet up for a lunch/dinner while you are on your way. Let me know. Cheers, Steve ps. I'm in Cobourg/Port Hope, but will travel north, east and west quite-a-ways if necessary... From owen at delong.com Tue Mar 2 20:35:54 2010 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 09:35:54 +0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] Suggestion 2010.1 -- Initial Fee Waiver forIPv6assignments to LRSA signatories In-Reply-To: <4B8D9BB6.2090300@ibctech.ca> References: <0D9FF6B3-9FB9-4FDA-BD2F-909767CDF228@delong.com><29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE23A@ex01.drtel.lan><3F6B4116-C379-498D-9772-C6219DB84A58@delong.com><29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE34B@ex01.drtel.lan><9D7AA2E6-0CC5-4B53-93B3-EDA813D80D80@delong.com><29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE352@ex01.drtel.lan><026b01caba2b$770a1530$651e3f90$@net> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE3B4@ex01.drtel.lan> <24F349B8030E5A47A8BDC2FE0E13D13EE8E1B539@nfldnet6.NFLDWIFI.LOCAL> <29A54911243620478FF59F00EBB12F4701CEE3B9@ex01.drtel.lan> <24F349B8030E5A47A8BDC2FE0E13D13EE8E1B53C@nfldnet6.NFLDWIFI.LOCAL> <028e01caba2f$d470c530$7d524f90$@net> <4B8D9BB6.2090300@ibctech.ca> Message-ID: <0B982105-115C-44FD-8C09-807340D2570E@delong.com> On Mar 3, 2010, at 7:13 AM, Steve Bertrand wrote: > On 2010.03.02 17:06, Owen DeLong wrote: >> If you are getting an allocation, you are an ISP/LIR. End users get >> Assignements, not allocations. >> There currently are not any fee waivers for assignments. > > ...and there shouldn't be imho. > > End users can achieve cost savings by signing up with an ISP who assigns > them IPv6 address space for no extra cost to the bandwidth/connection > package that they purchase. > > A financial value must be seen up-front by end-users who want to hold a > routing slot, and personally, I don't mind if that value translates into > fees paid to ARIN for the management of the space. > > If there isn't any up front cost to an end-user, then IPv6 space could > be treated as throwaway [insert free email supplier] accounts, whereas > ARIN would bear the brunt of the maintenance, and operators would curse. > Nobody is proposing to do away with the annual fees. The cost of a routing slot should be reflected in your transit or peering arrangements. In other words, routing belongs in the purview of the ISPs, not in the purview of address assignment. There is nothing that says a prefix delegated by ARIN will or can be routable. ARIN makes no such claim or guarantee. It is entirely up to ISPs what prefixes they choose to carry on their networks. Owen From steve at ibctech.ca Wed Mar 24 11:46:41 2010 From: steve at ibctech.ca (Steve Bertrand) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:46:41 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Question regarding 4.2.1.6 - Immediate need Message-ID: <4BAA33E1.8010400@ibctech.ca> Hi everyone, I'm peering with a local company here in town. This company has their own AS number, but it's IP space from an upstream provider. They advertise this IP space back to their upstream via their own ASN. The current IP address space used is < /23 (a /24 and a /26). One of the company's clients is an ISP (a WISP), who has been running their network under 1918 space for years using multiple levels of NAT. There is no need to describe why this is just plain bad, and all of the things it breaks. This company's WISP client has approx 386 access clients, 104 APs, and a few servers. They desire to renumber all of the WAN interfaces of the CPE with a single IP and NAT the internal side of the client premise gear, and have public IPs on their infrastructure gear with public IP addresses. Personally, I believe that this falls under: 4.2.1.6. Immediate need If an ISP has an immediate need for address space, and can provide justification to show that the address space will be utilized within 30 days of the request, ARIN may issue a block of address space, not larger than a /16 nor smaller than ARIN's customary minimum allocation, to that organization. These cases are exceptional. However, I don't know if the immediate need is for your OWN use, or if the case I've described (ISP assigning IP space to another ISP for their clients) falls under this 'exceptional case'. My expectation would be that the company's client would have to justify it's need to the upstream in the exact same fashion that I would if I was going back directly to ARIN, but if everything is NAT'd, that may be a bit difficult to do (perhaps copies of client agreements to prove the numbers). Note that I am not trying to perform any form of justification for this company, I'd just like to know if: a) 4.2.1.6 outweighs the efficient use of a /23 b) if a case like this is exceptional enough to fit 4.2.1.6 With the proper justification, the company could receive a /23 from it's upstream (or myself) to renumber this one client, which in turn would allow them to meet ARINs /23 criteria, but that would have their client renumber their entire network twice within 30 days. Feedback and insight welcome ;) Cheers! Steve