From jrhett at svcolo.com Thu Feb 26 20:34:47 2009 From: jrhett at svcolo.com (Jo Rhett) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:34:47 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? Message-ID: Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN contacts (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that says "talk to the hand" ? > If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you > are > encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software > vendors > and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these parties and get it resolved, why does it send a notice telling us with this? Next week will we see a notice that ARIN won't be involved in saving starving children in Africa? I imagine that ARIN will be very busy informing us of every thing it does not plan to work on ... is this helpful? Honestly? Entire message below: > Per a request from an ARIN customer, ARIN is sending you this letter > as > a courtesy notification of problems some registrants of ARIN-issued > IPv4 > addresses have experienced. > > Some geolocation and content providers are misidentifying ARIN-issued > address space as being outside the ARIN region. Common problems > experienced > by ARIN registrants over the last two years include: > > - search engines misidentifying the addresses as being in South > America; > - content caching providers sending traffic via nodes in South > America; and > - e-commerce transactions failing or being delaying due to fraud > prevention > procedures being triggered when the payment processing system > believes the > transaction is originating in South America. > > Registrants have experienced these problems both with new IANA- > issued /8s > (like 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8) and with /8s which ARIN has > issued and > re-issued over many years (like 63.0.0.0/8). > > If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you > are > encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software > vendors > and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. > > Regards, > > Leslie Nobile > Director, Registration Services > American Registry for Internet Numbers -- Jo Rhett senior geek Silicon Valley Colocation Support Phone: 408-400-0550 From scottleibrand at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 21:36:15 2009 From: scottleibrand at gmail.com (Scott Leibrand) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:36:15 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49A7519F.2080200@gmail.com> Jo, I was not involved in any discussions around that notice, but when I got it, I interpreted it as saying, "We're aware of a problem, and believe it may affect a lot of you. We can't fix it for you, but here's what you need to know to get it fixed if you're affected." Quite reasonable, IMO. -Scott Jo Rhett wrote: > Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN contacts > (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that says "talk to the > hand" ? > > >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >> are >> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >> vendors >> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >> > > If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these parties and > get it resolved, why does it send a notice telling us with this? Next > week will we see a notice that ARIN won't be involved in saving > starving children in Africa? I imagine that ARIN will be very busy > informing us of every thing it does not plan to work on ... is this > helpful? Honestly? > > Entire message below: > >> Per a request from an ARIN customer, ARIN is sending you this letter >> as >> a courtesy notification of problems some registrants of ARIN-issued >> IPv4 >> addresses have experienced. >> >> Some geolocation and content providers are misidentifying ARIN-issued >> address space as being outside the ARIN region. Common problems >> experienced >> by ARIN registrants over the last two years include: >> >> - search engines misidentifying the addresses as being in South >> America; >> - content caching providers sending traffic via nodes in South >> America; and >> - e-commerce transactions failing or being delaying due to fraud >> prevention >> procedures being triggered when the payment processing system >> believes the >> transaction is originating in South America. >> >> Registrants have experienced these problems both with new IANA- >> issued /8s >> (like 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8) and with /8s which ARIN has >> issued and >> re-issued over many years (like 63.0.0.0/8). >> >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >> are >> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >> vendors >> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >> >> Regards, >> >> Leslie Nobile >> Director, Registration Services >> American Registry for Internet Numbers >> From nikhil at web-werks.com Thu Feb 26 21:39:47 2009 From: nikhil at web-werks.com (Nikhil Rathi) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 08:09:47 +0530 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: <49A7519F.2080200@gmail.com> References: <49A7519F.2080200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001901c99884$ab895920$029c0b60$@com> Is this affecting just south America or IP Addresses whose subdelegation addresses have organizations from other countries in Asia / Africa etc. ???? Any body seen this happening ? -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Scott Leibrand Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 8:06 AM To: Jo Rhett Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? Jo, I was not involved in any discussions around that notice, but when I got it, I interpreted it as saying, "We're aware of a problem, and believe it may affect a lot of you. We can't fix it for you, but here's what you need to know to get it fixed if you're affected." Quite reasonable, IMO. -Scott Jo Rhett wrote: > Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN contacts > (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that says "talk to the > hand" ? > > >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >> are >> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >> vendors >> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >> > > If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these parties and > get it resolved, why does it send a notice telling us with this? Next > week will we see a notice that ARIN won't be involved in saving > starving children in Africa? I imagine that ARIN will be very busy > informing us of every thing it does not plan to work on ... is this > helpful? Honestly? > > Entire message below: > >> Per a request from an ARIN customer, ARIN is sending you this letter >> as >> a courtesy notification of problems some registrants of ARIN-issued >> IPv4 >> addresses have experienced. >> >> Some geolocation and content providers are misidentifying ARIN-issued >> address space as being outside the ARIN region. Common problems >> experienced >> by ARIN registrants over the last two years include: >> >> - search engines misidentifying the addresses as being in South >> America; >> - content caching providers sending traffic via nodes in South >> America; and >> - e-commerce transactions failing or being delaying due to fraud >> prevention >> procedures being triggered when the payment processing system >> believes the >> transaction is originating in South America. >> >> Registrants have experienced these problems both with new IANA- >> issued /8s >> (like 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8) and with /8s which ARIN has >> issued and >> re-issued over many years (like 63.0.0.0/8). >> >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >> are >> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >> vendors >> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >> >> Regards, >> >> Leslie Nobile >> Director, Registration Services >> American Registry for Internet Numbers >> _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From scheesman at level365.com Thu Feb 26 21:39:35 2009 From: scheesman at level365.com (Sean Cheesman) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 21:39:35 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: <49A7519F.2080200@gmail.com> References: <49A7519F.2080200@gmail.com> Message-ID: I disagree that this was a reasonable statement from ARIN. They listed no examples of what "content providers" are causing problems, and only leave it up to us to determine if there is a problem, and then try to resolve it on our own. Yes, it may now be easier to troubleshoot a problem because now I may say "hey, didn't I get an email from ARIN a while back warning me of a problem?" but that doesn't really help me be proactive about the issue. Sean -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Scott Leibrand Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:36 PM To: Jo Rhett Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? Jo, I was not involved in any discussions around that notice, but when I got it, I interpreted it as saying, "We're aware of a problem, and believe it may affect a lot of you. We can't fix it for you, but here's what you need to know to get it fixed if you're affected." Quite reasonable, IMO. -Scott Jo Rhett wrote: > Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN contacts > (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that says "talk to the > hand" ? > > >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >> are >> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >> vendors >> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >> > > If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these parties and > get it resolved, why does it send a notice telling us with this? Next > week will we see a notice that ARIN won't be involved in saving > starving children in Africa? I imagine that ARIN will be very busy > informing us of every thing it does not plan to work on ... is this > helpful? Honestly? > > Entire message below: > >> Per a request from an ARIN customer, ARIN is sending you this letter >> as >> a courtesy notification of problems some registrants of ARIN-issued >> IPv4 >> addresses have experienced. >> >> Some geolocation and content providers are misidentifying ARIN-issued >> address space as being outside the ARIN region. Common problems >> experienced >> by ARIN registrants over the last two years include: >> >> - search engines misidentifying the addresses as being in South >> America; >> - content caching providers sending traffic via nodes in South >> America; and >> - e-commerce transactions failing or being delaying due to fraud >> prevention >> procedures being triggered when the payment processing system >> believes the >> transaction is originating in South America. >> >> Registrants have experienced these problems both with new IANA- >> issued /8s >> (like 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8) and with /8s which ARIN has >> issued and >> re-issued over many years (like 63.0.0.0/8). >> >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >> are >> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >> vendors >> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >> >> Regards, >> >> Leslie Nobile >> Director, Registration Services >> American Registry for Internet Numbers >> _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From kwilliams at altuscgi.com Thu Feb 26 21:55:23 2009 From: kwilliams at altuscgi.com (Kelvin Williams) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 21:55:23 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: References: <49A7519F.2080200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001f01c99886$d5b665b0$6401a8c0@ACGIABB01> I would have to concur. As a current holder of a block in the affected ranges our helpdesk has been inundated with complaint calls from our end-users. For example, Google redirects our users with IPs in the affected ranges to their German version, etc. While we haven't experienced any true routing issues, we have tried to contact some of the content providers and companies like Google to no avail. At the bare minimum, ARIN could have provided to block holders via the new superduper secure website contact numbers or e-mail addresses to the organizations which we know are causing these types of issues. We have all but abandoned any hopes of resolving the issue and merely crossed our fingers in hopes that these content and geo-location providers would re-query ARIN's WHOIS at some time in the immediate future. I can't speak for all, but at our company, we don't have anyone available to research for contacts, fill out web-forms-to-nowhere, or leave voicemails all day in mailboxes that don't get checked. kw -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Sean Cheesman Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:40 PM To: Scott Leibrand; Jo Rhett Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? I disagree that this was a reasonable statement from ARIN. They listed no examples of what "content providers" are causing problems, and only leave it up to us to determine if there is a problem, and then try to resolve it on our own. Yes, it may now be easier to troubleshoot a problem because now I may say "hey, didn't I get an email from ARIN a while back warning me of a problem?" but that doesn't really help me be proactive about the issue. Sean -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Scott Leibrand Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:36 PM To: Jo Rhett Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? Jo, I was not involved in any discussions around that notice, but when I got it, I interpreted it as saying, "We're aware of a problem, and believe it may affect a lot of you. We can't fix it for you, but here's what you need to know to get it fixed if you're affected." Quite reasonable, IMO. -Scott Jo Rhett wrote: > Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN contacts > (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that says "talk to the > hand" ? > > >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >> are >> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >> vendors >> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >> > > If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these parties and > get it resolved, why does it send a notice telling us with this? Next > week will we see a notice that ARIN won't be involved in saving > starving children in Africa? I imagine that ARIN will be very busy > informing us of every thing it does not plan to work on ... is this > helpful? Honestly? > > Entire message below: > >> Per a request from an ARIN customer, ARIN is sending you this letter >> as >> a courtesy notification of problems some registrants of ARIN-issued >> IPv4 >> addresses have experienced. >> >> Some geolocation and content providers are misidentifying ARIN-issued >> address space as being outside the ARIN region. Common problems >> experienced >> by ARIN registrants over the last two years include: >> >> - search engines misidentifying the addresses as being in South >> America; >> - content caching providers sending traffic via nodes in South >> America; and >> - e-commerce transactions failing or being delaying due to fraud >> prevention >> procedures being triggered when the payment processing system >> believes the >> transaction is originating in South America. >> >> Registrants have experienced these problems both with new IANA- >> issued /8s >> (like 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8) and with /8s which ARIN has >> issued and >> re-issued over many years (like 63.0.0.0/8). >> >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >> are >> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >> vendors >> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >> >> Regards, >> >> Leslie Nobile >> Director, Registration Services >> American Registry for Internet Numbers >> _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From scott.berkman at reignmaker.net Thu Feb 26 22:02:03 2009 From: scott.berkman at reignmaker.net (Scott Berkman) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 22:02:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: <001f01c99886$d5b665b0$6401a8c0@ACGIABB01> References: <49A7519F.2080200@gmail.com> <001f01c99886$d5b665b0$6401a8c0@ACGIABB01> Message-ID: <002c01c99888$b1bdccf0$153966d0$@berkman@reignmaker.net> My best guess is this is exactly what they were trying to avoid. I bet it they have been getting inundated themselves with calls/emails about these issues, but can't actually fix it since they don't control their services. I'd do something similar if my customers were flooding us about an issue that wasn't our fault and we couldn't fix on our own. Not saying they couldn't have had a better, more helpful email, but I get why they sent it. -Scott -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Kelvin Williams Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:55 PM To: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? I would have to concur. As a current holder of a block in the affected ranges our helpdesk has been inundated with complaint calls from our end-users. For example, Google redirects our users with IPs in the affected ranges to their German version, etc. While we haven't experienced any true routing issues, we have tried to contact some of the content providers and companies like Google to no avail. At the bare minimum, ARIN could have provided to block holders via the new superduper secure website contact numbers or e-mail addresses to the organizations which we know are causing these types of issues. We have all but abandoned any hopes of resolving the issue and merely crossed our fingers in hopes that these content and geo-location providers would re-query ARIN's WHOIS at some time in the immediate future. I can't speak for all, but at our company, we don't have anyone available to research for contacts, fill out web-forms-to-nowhere, or leave voicemails all day in mailboxes that don't get checked. kw -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Sean Cheesman Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:40 PM To: Scott Leibrand; Jo Rhett Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? I disagree that this was a reasonable statement from ARIN. They listed no examples of what "content providers" are causing problems, and only leave it up to us to determine if there is a problem, and then try to resolve it on our own. Yes, it may now be easier to troubleshoot a problem because now I may say "hey, didn't I get an email from ARIN a while back warning me of a problem?" but that doesn't really help me be proactive about the issue. Sean -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Scott Leibrand Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:36 PM To: Jo Rhett Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? Jo, I was not involved in any discussions around that notice, but when I got it, I interpreted it as saying, "We're aware of a problem, and believe it may affect a lot of you. We can't fix it for you, but here's what you need to know to get it fixed if you're affected." Quite reasonable, IMO. -Scott Jo Rhett wrote: > Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN contacts > (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that says "talk to the > hand" ? > > >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >> are >> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >> vendors >> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >> > > If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these parties and > get it resolved, why does it send a notice telling us with this? Next > week will we see a notice that ARIN won't be involved in saving > starving children in Africa? I imagine that ARIN will be very busy > informing us of every thing it does not plan to work on ... is this > helpful? Honestly? > > Entire message below: > >> Per a request from an ARIN customer, ARIN is sending you this letter >> as >> a courtesy notification of problems some registrants of ARIN-issued >> IPv4 >> addresses have experienced. >> >> Some geolocation and content providers are misidentifying ARIN-issued >> address space as being outside the ARIN region. Common problems >> experienced >> by ARIN registrants over the last two years include: >> >> - search engines misidentifying the addresses as being in South >> America; >> - content caching providers sending traffic via nodes in South >> America; and >> - e-commerce transactions failing or being delaying due to fraud >> prevention >> procedures being triggered when the payment processing system >> believes the >> transaction is originating in South America. >> >> Registrants have experienced these problems both with new IANA- >> issued /8s >> (like 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8) and with /8s which ARIN has >> issued and >> re-issued over many years (like 63.0.0.0/8). >> >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >> are >> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >> vendors >> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >> >> Regards, >> >> Leslie Nobile >> Director, Registration Services >> American Registry for Internet Numbers >> _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From kwilliams at altuscgi.com Thu Feb 26 22:15:29 2009 From: kwilliams at altuscgi.com (Kelvin Williams) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 03:15:29 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: <002c01c99888$b1bdccf0$153966d0$@berkman@reignmaker.net> References: <49A7519F.2080200@gmail.com> <001f01c99886$d5b665b0$6401a8c0@ACGIABB01><002c01c99888$b1bdccf0$153966d0$@berkman@reignmaker.net> Message-ID: <111810398-1235704517-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1153603308-@bxe1124.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Please don't take the following as me being a smarta** but this is ARIN we are talking about. Each of these service providers more than likely have a direct allocation, and therefore ARIN has quality contact information for them. When Joe the IP Engineer calls Google he doesn't get anything but an IVR that instructs him to submit an email or web form. Which is ignored. We've done this. However if Google's (and, I apologize in advance for using them in my example) designated ARIN contact receives a notice from ARIN, I'm willing to bet he or she is more apt to respond. So why does David have to fight Goliath's battle? Kw Kelvin Williams Altus Communications Group, Inc. Office Direct: 678.369.5968 Office Main: 678.369.5970 Fax: 866.895.8557 Mobile: 678.852.4173 Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed -----Original Message----- From: "Scott Berkman" Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 22:02:03 To: 'Kelvin Williams'; Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? My best guess is this is exactly what they were trying to avoid. I bet it they have been getting inundated themselves with calls/emails about these issues, but can't actually fix it since they don't control their services. I'd do something similar if my customers were flooding us about an issue that wasn't our fault and we couldn't fix on our own. Not saying they couldn't have had a better, more helpful email, but I get why they sent it. -Scott -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Kelvin Williams Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:55 PM To: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? I would have to concur. As a current holder of a block in the affected ranges our helpdesk has been inundated with complaint calls from our end-users. For example, Google redirects our users with IPs in the affected ranges to their German version, etc. While we haven't experienced any true routing issues, we have tried to contact some of the content providers and companies like Google to no avail. At the bare minimum, ARIN could have provided to block holders via the new superduper secure website contact numbers or e-mail addresses to the organizations which we know are causing these types of issues. We have all but abandoned any hopes of resolving the issue and merely crossed our fingers in hopes that these content and geo-location providers would re-query ARIN's WHOIS at some time in the immediate future. I can't speak for all, but at our company, we don't have anyone available to research for contacts, fill out web-forms-to-nowhere, or leave voicemails all day in mailboxes that don't get checked. kw -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Sean Cheesman Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:40 PM To: Scott Leibrand; Jo Rhett Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? I disagree that this was a reasonable statement from ARIN. They listed no examples of what "content providers" are causing problems, and only leave it up to us to determine if there is a problem, and then try to resolve it on our own. Yes, it may now be easier to troubleshoot a problem because now I may say "hey, didn't I get an email from ARIN a while back warning me of a problem?" but that doesn't really help me be proactive about the issue. Sean -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Scott Leibrand Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:36 PM To: Jo Rhett Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? Jo, I was not involved in any discussions around that notice, but when I got it, I interpreted it as saying, "We're aware of a problem, and believe it may affect a lot of you. We can't fix it for you, but here's what you need to know to get it fixed if you're affected." Quite reasonable, IMO. -Scott Jo Rhett wrote: > Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN contacts > (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that says "talk to the > hand" ? > > >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >> are >> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >> vendors >> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >> > > If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these parties and > get it resolved, why does it send a notice telling us with this? Next > week will we see a notice that ARIN won't be involved in saving > starving children in Africa? I imagine that ARIN will be very busy > informing us of every thing it does not plan to work on ... is this > helpful? Honestly? > > Entire message below: > >> Per a request from an ARIN customer, ARIN is sending you this letter >> as >> a courtesy notification of problems some registrants of ARIN-issued >> IPv4 >> addresses have experienced. >> >> Some geolocation and content providers are misidentifying ARIN-issued >> address space as being outside the ARIN region. Common problems >> experienced >> by ARIN registrants over the last two years include: >> >> - search engines misidentifying the addresses as being in South >> America; >> - content caching providers sending traffic via nodes in South >> America; and >> - e-commerce transactions failing or being delaying due to fraud >> prevention >> procedures being triggered when the payment processing system >> believes the >> transaction is originating in South America. >> >> Registrants have experienced these problems both with new IANA- >> issued /8s >> (like 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8) and with /8s which ARIN has >> issued and >> re-issued over many years (like 63.0.0.0/8). >> >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >> are >> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >> vendors >> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >> >> Regards, >> >> Leslie Nobile >> Director, Registration Services >> American Registry for Internet Numbers >> _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From scottleibrand at gmail.com Thu Feb 26 22:29:09 2009 From: scottleibrand at gmail.com (Scott Leibrand) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:29:09 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: <111810398-1235704517-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1153603308-@bxe1124.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <49A7519F.2080200@gmail.com> <001f01c99886$d5b665b0$6401a8c0@ACGIABB01><002c01c99888$b1bdccf0$153966d0$@berkman@reignmaker.net> <111810398-1235704517-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1153603308-@bxe1124.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <49A75E05.5080008@gmail.com> Don't forget, every company in a position to fix this *did* get the same e-mail you did. I suspect they're quite aware of the issue now (if they weren't before), and working to get it fixed. -Scott Kelvin Williams wrote: > Please don't take the following as me being a smarta** but this is ARIN we are talking about. Each of these service providers more than likely have a direct allocation, and therefore ARIN has quality contact information for them. > > When Joe the IP Engineer calls Google he doesn't get anything but an IVR that instructs him to submit an email or web form. Which is ignored. We've done this. > > However if Google's (and, I apologize in advance for using them in my example) designated ARIN contact receives a notice from ARIN, I'm willing to bet he or she is more apt to respond. > > So why does David have to fight Goliath's battle? > > Kw > > > Kelvin Williams > Altus Communications Group, Inc. > Office Direct: 678.369.5968 > Office Main: 678.369.5970 > Fax: 866.895.8557 > Mobile: 678.852.4173 > > Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Scott Berkman" > > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 22:02:03 > To: 'Kelvin Williams'; > Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > > > My best guess is this is exactly what they were trying to avoid. I bet it > they have been getting inundated themselves with calls/emails about these > issues, but can't actually fix it since they don't control their services. > > I'd do something similar if my customers were flooding us about an issue > that wasn't our fault and we couldn't fix on our own. > > Not saying they couldn't have had a better, more helpful email, but I get > why they sent it. > > -Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] > On Behalf Of Kelvin Williams > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:55 PM > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > > I would have to concur. As a current holder of a block in the affected > ranges our helpdesk has been inundated with complaint calls from our > end-users. For example, Google redirects our users with IPs in the > affected > ranges to their German version, etc. > > While we haven't experienced any true routing issues, we have tried to > contact some of the content providers and companies like Google to no > avail. > > > At the bare minimum, ARIN could have provided to block holders via the new > superduper secure website contact numbers or e-mail addresses to the > organizations which we know are causing these types of issues. We have > all > but abandoned any hopes of resolving the issue and merely crossed our > fingers in hopes that these content and geo-location providers would > re-query ARIN's WHOIS at some time in the immediate future. > > I can't speak for all, but at our company, we don't have anyone available > to > research for contacts, fill out web-forms-to-nowhere, or leave voicemails > all day in mailboxes that don't get checked. > > kw > > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] > On Behalf Of Sean Cheesman > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:40 PM > To: Scott Leibrand; Jo Rhett > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > > I disagree that this was a reasonable statement from ARIN. They listed no > examples of what "content providers" are causing problems, and only leave > it > up to us to determine if there is a problem, and then try to resolve it on > our own. Yes, it may now be easier to troubleshoot a problem because now > I > may say "hey, didn't I get an email from ARIN a while back warning me of a > problem?" but that doesn't really help me be proactive about the issue. > > Sean > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] > On Behalf Of Scott Leibrand > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:36 PM > To: Jo Rhett > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > > Jo, > > I was not involved in any discussions around that notice, but when I got > it, I interpreted it as saying, "We're aware of a problem, and believe > it may affect a lot of you. We can't fix it for you, but here's what > you need to know to get it fixed if you're affected." > > Quite reasonable, IMO. > > -Scott > > Jo Rhett wrote: > >> Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN contacts >> (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that says "talk to the >> hand" ? >> >> >> >>> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >>> are >>> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >>> vendors >>> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >>> >>> >> If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these parties and >> get it resolved, why does it send a notice telling us with this? Next >> week will we see a notice that ARIN won't be involved in saving >> starving children in Africa? I imagine that ARIN will be very busy >> informing us of every thing it does not plan to work on ... is this >> helpful? Honestly? >> >> Entire message below: >> >> >>> Per a request from an ARIN customer, ARIN is sending you this letter >>> as >>> a courtesy notification of problems some registrants of ARIN-issued >>> IPv4 >>> addresses have experienced. >>> >>> Some geolocation and content providers are misidentifying ARIN-issued >>> address space as being outside the ARIN region. Common problems >>> experienced >>> by ARIN registrants over the last two years include: >>> >>> - search engines misidentifying the addresses as being in South >>> America; >>> - content caching providers sending traffic via nodes in South >>> America; and >>> - e-commerce transactions failing or being delaying due to fraud >>> prevention >>> procedures being triggered when the payment processing system >>> believes the >>> transaction is originating in South America. >>> >>> Registrants have experienced these problems both with new IANA- >>> issued /8s >>> (like 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8) and with /8s which ARIN has >>> issued and >>> re-issued over many years (like 63.0.0.0/8). >>> >>> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >>> are >>> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >>> vendors >>> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Leslie Nobile >>> Director, Registration Services >>> American Registry for Internet Numbers >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > From kwilliams at altuscgi.com Thu Feb 26 22:32:26 2009 From: kwilliams at altuscgi.com (Kelvin Williams) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 03:32:26 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: <49A75E05.5080008@gmail.com> References: <49A7519F.2080200@gmail.com> <001f01c99886$d5b665b0$6401a8c0@ACGIABB01><002c01c99888$b1bdccf0$153966d0$@berkman@reignmaker.net> <111810398-1235704517-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1153603308-@bxe1124.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><49A75E05.5080008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1349092514-1235705534-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-988110880-@bxe1124.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Good point. I shall shut up now. :) Kelvin Williams Altus Communications Group, Inc. Office Direct: 678.369.5968 Office Main: 678.369.5970 Fax: 866.895.8557 Mobile: 678.852.4173 Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed -----Original Message----- From: Scott Leibrand Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:29:09 To: Cc: Scott Berkman; Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? Don't forget, every company in a position to fix this *did* get the same e-mail you did. I suspect they're quite aware of the issue now (if they weren't before), and working to get it fixed. -Scott Kelvin Williams wrote: > Please don't take the following as me being a smarta** but this is ARIN we are talking about. Each of these service providers more than likely have a direct allocation, and therefore ARIN has quality contact information for them. > > When Joe the IP Engineer calls Google he doesn't get anything but an IVR that instructs him to submit an email or web form. Which is ignored. We've done this. > > However if Google's (and, I apologize in advance for using them in my example) designated ARIN contact receives a notice from ARIN, I'm willing to bet he or she is more apt to respond. > > So why does David have to fight Goliath's battle? > > Kw > > > Kelvin Williams > Altus Communications Group, Inc. > Office Direct: 678.369.5968 > Office Main: 678.369.5970 > Fax: 866.895.8557 > Mobile: 678.852.4173 > > Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Scott Berkman" > > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 22:02:03 > To: 'Kelvin Williams'; > Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > > > My best guess is this is exactly what they were trying to avoid. I bet it > they have been getting inundated themselves with calls/emails about these > issues, but can't actually fix it since they don't control their services. > > I'd do something similar if my customers were flooding us about an issue > that wasn't our fault and we couldn't fix on our own. > > Not saying they couldn't have had a better, more helpful email, but I get > why they sent it. > > -Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] > On Behalf Of Kelvin Williams > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:55 PM > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > > I would have to concur. As a current holder of a block in the affected > ranges our helpdesk has been inundated with complaint calls from our > end-users. For example, Google redirects our users with IPs in the > affected > ranges to their German version, etc. > > While we haven't experienced any true routing issues, we have tried to > contact some of the content providers and companies like Google to no > avail. > > > At the bare minimum, ARIN could have provided to block holders via the new > superduper secure website contact numbers or e-mail addresses to the > organizations which we know are causing these types of issues. We have > all > but abandoned any hopes of resolving the issue and merely crossed our > fingers in hopes that these content and geo-location providers would > re-query ARIN's WHOIS at some time in the immediate future. > > I can't speak for all, but at our company, we don't have anyone available > to > research for contacts, fill out web-forms-to-nowhere, or leave voicemails > all day in mailboxes that don't get checked. > > kw > > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] > On Behalf Of Sean Cheesman > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:40 PM > To: Scott Leibrand; Jo Rhett > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > > I disagree that this was a reasonable statement from ARIN. They listed no > examples of what "content providers" are causing problems, and only leave > it > up to us to determine if there is a problem, and then try to resolve it on > our own. Yes, it may now be easier to troubleshoot a problem because now > I > may say "hey, didn't I get an email from ARIN a while back warning me of a > problem?" but that doesn't really help me be proactive about the issue. > > Sean > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] > On Behalf Of Scott Leibrand > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:36 PM > To: Jo Rhett > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > > Jo, > > I was not involved in any discussions around that notice, but when I got > it, I interpreted it as saying, "We're aware of a problem, and believe > it may affect a lot of you. We can't fix it for you, but here's what > you need to know to get it fixed if you're affected." > > Quite reasonable, IMO. > > -Scott > > Jo Rhett wrote: > >> Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN contacts >> (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that says "talk to the >> hand" ? >> >> >> >>> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >>> are >>> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >>> vendors >>> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >>> >>> >> If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these parties and >> get it resolved, why does it send a notice telling us with this? Next >> week will we see a notice that ARIN won't be involved in saving >> starving children in Africa? I imagine that ARIN will be very busy >> informing us of every thing it does not plan to work on ... is this >> helpful? Honestly? >> >> Entire message below: >> >> >>> Per a request from an ARIN customer, ARIN is sending you this letter >>> as >>> a courtesy notification of problems some registrants of ARIN-issued >>> IPv4 >>> addresses have experienced. >>> >>> Some geolocation and content providers are misidentifying ARIN-issued >>> address space as being outside the ARIN region. Common problems >>> experienced >>> by ARIN registrants over the last two years include: >>> >>> - search engines misidentifying the addresses as being in South >>> America; >>> - content caching providers sending traffic via nodes in South >>> America; and >>> - e-commerce transactions failing or being delaying due to fraud >>> prevention >>> procedures being triggered when the payment processing system >>> believes the >>> transaction is originating in South America. >>> >>> Registrants have experienced these problems both with new IANA- >>> issued /8s >>> (like 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8) and with /8s which ARIN has >>> issued and >>> re-issued over many years (like 63.0.0.0/8). >>> >>> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >>> are >>> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >>> vendors >>> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Leslie Nobile >>> Director, Registration Services >>> American Registry for Internet Numbers >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > From Brad at broadcore.com Thu Feb 26 22:28:12 2009 From: Brad at broadcore.com (Brad Anouar) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:28:12 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: <002c01c99888$b1bdccf0$153966d0$@berkman@reignmaker.net> References: <49A7519F.2080200@gmail.com> <001f01c99886$d5b665b0$6401a8c0@ACGIABB01> <002c01c99888$b1bdccf0$153966d0$@berkman@reignmaker.net> Message-ID: <6B1CCA64F8687E48B7B3222685B891390FFD2DF6@Mail.nextcom.net> Has anyone experienced any issues relating to this? We are using a little subnet in the 63.0.0.0/8 IP space, but so far so good. I will have to research this online to find out if there are any proactive measures worth taking. Brad -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Scott Berkman Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:02 PM To: 'Kelvin Williams'; arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? My best guess is this is exactly what they were trying to avoid. I bet it they have been getting inundated themselves with calls/emails about these issues, but can't actually fix it since they don't control their services. I'd do something similar if my customers were flooding us about an issue that wasn't our fault and we couldn't fix on our own. Not saying they couldn't have had a better, more helpful email, but I get why they sent it. -Scott -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Kelvin Williams Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:55 PM To: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? I would have to concur. As a current holder of a block in the affected ranges our helpdesk has been inundated with complaint calls from our end-users. For example, Google redirects our users with IPs in the affected ranges to their German version, etc. While we haven't experienced any true routing issues, we have tried to contact some of the content providers and companies like Google to no avail. At the bare minimum, ARIN could have provided to block holders via the new superduper secure website contact numbers or e-mail addresses to the organizations which we know are causing these types of issues. We have all but abandoned any hopes of resolving the issue and merely crossed our fingers in hopes that these content and geo-location providers would re-query ARIN's WHOIS at some time in the immediate future. I can't speak for all, but at our company, we don't have anyone available to research for contacts, fill out web-forms-to-nowhere, or leave voicemails all day in mailboxes that don't get checked. kw -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Sean Cheesman Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:40 PM To: Scott Leibrand; Jo Rhett Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? I disagree that this was a reasonable statement from ARIN. They listed no examples of what "content providers" are causing problems, and only leave it up to us to determine if there is a problem, and then try to resolve it on our own. Yes, it may now be easier to troubleshoot a problem because now I may say "hey, didn't I get an email from ARIN a while back warning me of a problem?" but that doesn't really help me be proactive about the issue. Sean -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Scott Leibrand Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:36 PM To: Jo Rhett Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? Jo, I was not involved in any discussions around that notice, but when I got it, I interpreted it as saying, "We're aware of a problem, and believe it may affect a lot of you. We can't fix it for you, but here's what you need to know to get it fixed if you're affected." Quite reasonable, IMO. -Scott Jo Rhett wrote: > Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN contacts > (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that says "talk to the > hand" ? > > >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >> are >> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >> vendors >> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >> > > If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these parties and > get it resolved, why does it send a notice telling us with this? Next > week will we see a notice that ARIN won't be involved in saving > starving children in Africa? I imagine that ARIN will be very busy > informing us of every thing it does not plan to work on ... is this > helpful? Honestly? > > Entire message below: > >> Per a request from an ARIN customer, ARIN is sending you this letter >> as >> a courtesy notification of problems some registrants of ARIN-issued >> IPv4 >> addresses have experienced. >> >> Some geolocation and content providers are misidentifying ARIN-issued >> address space as being outside the ARIN region. Common problems >> experienced >> by ARIN registrants over the last two years include: >> >> - search engines misidentifying the addresses as being in South >> America; >> - content caching providers sending traffic via nodes in South >> America; and >> - e-commerce transactions failing or being delaying due to fraud >> prevention >> procedures being triggered when the payment processing system >> believes the >> transaction is originating in South America. >> >> Registrants have experienced these problems both with new IANA- >> issued /8s >> (like 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8) and with /8s which ARIN has >> issued and >> re-issued over many years (like 63.0.0.0/8). >> >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >> are >> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >> vendors >> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >> >> Regards, >> >> Leslie Nobile >> Director, Registration Services >> American Registry for Internet Numbers >> _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From kloch at kl.net Thu Feb 26 23:06:55 2009 From: kloch at kl.net (Kevin Loch) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 23:06:55 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49A766DF.4010606@kl.net> Jo Rhett wrote: > Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN contacts > (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that says "talk to the > hand" ? They probably knew that some of the contacts for a given poc may not work anymore. It was totally inappropriate to send this to abuse contacts however. Just think of all the non-working contacts they can now flag for special attention the next time someone submits an update template from them... - Kevin From rob at wishcom.net Thu Feb 26 22:01:51 2009 From: rob at wishcom.net (Rob Abraham) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 21:01:51 -0600 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8909B97D-FFC8-412B-AD75-EC0BC0A53DF4@wishcom.net> agreed, i was blown away by that random "yeah we dont care" email Robert Abraham WishCom Internet tel: 815.675.FAST x200 web: www.wishcom.net On Feb 26, 2009, at 7:34 PM, Jo Rhett wrote: > Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN contacts > (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that says "talk to the > hand" ? > >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >> are >> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >> vendors >> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. > > If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these parties and > get it resolved, why does it send a notice telling us with this? Next > week will we see a notice that ARIN won't be involved in saving > starving children in Africa? I imagine that ARIN will be very busy > informing us of every thing it does not plan to work on ... is this > helpful? Honestly? > > Entire message below: >> Per a request from an ARIN customer, ARIN is sending you this letter >> as >> a courtesy notification of problems some registrants of ARIN-issued >> IPv4 >> addresses have experienced. >> >> Some geolocation and content providers are misidentifying ARIN-issued >> address space as being outside the ARIN region. Common problems >> experienced >> by ARIN registrants over the last two years include: >> >> - search engines misidentifying the addresses as being in South >> America; >> - content caching providers sending traffic via nodes in South >> America; and >> - e-commerce transactions failing or being delaying due to fraud >> prevention >> procedures being triggered when the payment processing system >> believes the >> transaction is originating in South America. >> >> Registrants have experienced these problems both with new IANA- >> issued /8s >> (like 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8) and with /8s which ARIN has >> issued and >> re-issued over many years (like 63.0.0.0/8). >> >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >> are >> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >> vendors >> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >> >> Regards, >> >> Leslie Nobile >> Director, Registration Services >> American Registry for Internet Numbers > -- > Jo Rhett > senior geek > > Silicon Valley Colocation > Support Phone: 408-400-0550 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From Jack.Stevens at Embarq.com Thu Feb 26 23:54:13 2009 From: Jack.Stevens at Embarq.com (Stevens, Jack F[EQ]) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 22:54:13 -0600 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: <6B1CCA64F8687E48B7B3222685B891390FFD2DF6@Mail.nextcom.net> References: <49A7519F.2080200@gmail.com> <001f01c99886$d5b665b0$6401a8c0@ACGIABB01> <002c01c99888$b1bdccf0$153966d0$@berkman@reignmaker.net> <6B1CCA64F8687E48B7B3222685B891390FFD2DF6@Mail.nextcom.net> Message-ID: <7D89145FA724A44BB422C8094FFDFE0C016F60FD2F@PKDWES2V2.EQ.Intranet> We had some major issues with this with the allocation in the 63.0.0.0/8 that we got from ARIN last year. It took multiple attempts with each of the providers to get the geolocation updated with them. Most of the complaints from our DSL customers were about the Spanish version of Google coming up. Jack -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Brad Anouar Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 10:28 PM To: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? Has anyone experienced any issues relating to this? We are using a little subnet in the 63.0.0.0/8 IP space, but so far so good. I will have to research this online to find out if there are any proactive measures worth taking. Brad -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Scott Berkman Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:02 PM To: 'Kelvin Williams'; arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? My best guess is this is exactly what they were trying to avoid. I bet it they have been getting inundated themselves with calls/emails about these issues, but can't actually fix it since they don't control their services. I'd do something similar if my customers were flooding us about an issue that wasn't our fault and we couldn't fix on our own. Not saying they couldn't have had a better, more helpful email, but I get why they sent it. -Scott -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Kelvin Williams Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:55 PM To: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? I would have to concur. As a current holder of a block in the affected ranges our helpdesk has been inundated with complaint calls from our end-users. For example, Google redirects our users with IPs in the affected ranges to their German version, etc. While we haven't experienced any true routing issues, we have tried to contact some of the content providers and companies like Google to no avail. At the bare minimum, ARIN could have provided to block holders via the new superduper secure website contact numbers or e-mail addresses to the organizations which we know are causing these types of issues. We have all but abandoned any hopes of resolving the issue and merely crossed our fingers in hopes that these content and geo-location providers would re-query ARIN's WHOIS at some time in the immediate future. I can't speak for all, but at our company, we don't have anyone available to research for contacts, fill out web-forms-to-nowhere, or leave voicemails all day in mailboxes that don't get checked. kw -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Sean Cheesman Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:40 PM To: Scott Leibrand; Jo Rhett Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? I disagree that this was a reasonable statement from ARIN. They listed no examples of what "content providers" are causing problems, and only leave it up to us to determine if there is a problem, and then try to resolve it on our own. Yes, it may now be easier to troubleshoot a problem because now I may say "hey, didn't I get an email from ARIN a while back warning me of a problem?" but that doesn't really help me be proactive about the issue. Sean -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Scott Leibrand Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:36 PM To: Jo Rhett Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? Jo, I was not involved in any discussions around that notice, but when I got it, I interpreted it as saying, "We're aware of a problem, and believe it may affect a lot of you. We can't fix it for you, but here's what you need to know to get it fixed if you're affected." Quite reasonable, IMO. -Scott Jo Rhett wrote: > Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN contacts > (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that says "talk to the > hand" ? > > >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >> are encouraged to contact and work with third-party information >> software vendors and/or the content providers directly to effect >> changes. >> > > If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these parties and > get it resolved, why does it send a notice telling us with this? Next > week will we see a notice that ARIN won't be involved in saving > starving children in Africa? I imagine that ARIN will be very busy > informing us of every thing it does not plan to work on ... is this > helpful? Honestly? > > Entire message below: > >> Per a request from an ARIN customer, ARIN is sending you this letter >> as a courtesy notification of problems some registrants of >> ARIN-issued >> IPv4 >> addresses have experienced. >> >> Some geolocation and content providers are misidentifying ARIN-issued >> address space as being outside the ARIN region. Common problems >> experienced by ARIN registrants over the last two years include: >> >> - search engines misidentifying the addresses as being in South >> America; >> - content caching providers sending traffic via nodes in South >> America; and >> - e-commerce transactions failing or being delaying due to fraud >> prevention procedures being triggered when the payment processing >> system believes the transaction is originating in South America. >> >> Registrants have experienced these problems both with new IANA- >> issued /8s (like 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8) and with /8s which ARIN >> has issued and re-issued over many years (like 63.0.0.0/8). >> >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >> are encouraged to contact and work with third-party information >> software vendors and/or the content providers directly to effect >> changes. >> >> Regards, >> >> Leslie Nobile >> Director, Registration Services >> American Registry for Internet Numbers >> _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From Robert.Smales at cw.com Fri Feb 27 05:20:50 2009 From: Robert.Smales at cw.com (Smales, Robert) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 10:20:50 -0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: <6B1CCA64F8687E48B7B3222685B891390FFD2DF6@Mail.nextcom.net> Message-ID: <602ACF092EFFB044931BD8746C19AD2F014E510D@gbcwswiem006.ad.plc.cwintra.com> Hi, Here in the UK I get this kind of issue every couple of months, either because Google is giving customers in the UK google.de or google.fr or because people can't access the BBC's web TV because the BBC thinks they are outside the UK. I hate geolocation providers with a passion because there is no way in principle that they can do what they say they can do, and in practice the results they give are wildly inaccurate. I can understand why the BBC needs to do this (because copyright works with national boundaries) but I don't think it is reasonable for Google to give Marcel or Fritz google.fr or google.de when they typed www.google.com Robert Robert Smales IP Provide Engineer Cable&Wireless Europe, Asia & US www.cw.com > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Brad Anouar > Sent: 27 February 2009 03:28 > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > > > Has anyone experienced any issues relating to this? We are > using a little subnet in the 63.0.0.0/8 IP space, but so far > so good. I will have to research this online to find out if > there are any proactive measures worth taking. > > Brad > > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Scott Berkman > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:02 PM > To: 'Kelvin Williams'; arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > > My best guess is this is exactly what they were trying to > avoid. I bet it > they have been getting inundated themselves with calls/emails > about these > issues, but can't actually fix it since they don't control > their services. > > I'd do something similar if my customers were flooding us > about an issue > that wasn't our fault and we couldn't fix on our own. > > Not saying they couldn't have had a better, more helpful > email, but I get > why they sent it. > > -Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] > On Behalf Of Kelvin Williams > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:55 PM > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > > I would have to concur. As a current holder of a block in > the affected > ranges our helpdesk has been inundated with complaint calls from our > end-users. For example, Google redirects our users with IPs in the > affected > ranges to their German version, etc. > > While we haven't experienced any true routing issues, we have tried to > contact some of the content providers and companies like Google to no > avail. > > > At the bare minimum, ARIN could have provided to block > holders via the new > superduper secure website contact numbers or e-mail addresses to the > organizations which we know are causing these types of > issues. We have > all > but abandoned any hopes of resolving the issue and merely crossed our > fingers in hopes that these content and geo-location providers would > re-query ARIN's WHOIS at some time in the immediate future. > > I can't speak for all, but at our company, we don't have > anyone available > to > research for contacts, fill out web-forms-to-nowhere, or > leave voicemails > all day in mailboxes that don't get checked. > > kw > > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] > On Behalf Of Sean Cheesman > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:40 PM > To: Scott Leibrand; Jo Rhett > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > > I disagree that this was a reasonable statement from ARIN. > They listed no > examples of what "content providers" are causing problems, > and only leave > it > up to us to determine if there is a problem, and then try to > resolve it on > our own. Yes, it may now be easier to troubleshoot a problem > because now > I > may say "hey, didn't I get an email from ARIN a while back > warning me of a > problem?" but that doesn't really help me be proactive about > the issue. > > Sean > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] > On Behalf Of Scott Leibrand > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:36 PM > To: Jo Rhett > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > > Jo, > > I was not involved in any discussions around that notice, but > when I got > it, I interpreted it as saying, "We're aware of a problem, and believe > it may affect a lot of you. We can't fix it for you, but here's what > you need to know to get it fixed if you're affected." > > Quite reasonable, IMO. > > -Scott > > Jo Rhett wrote: > > Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN contacts > > (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that says "talk to the > > hand" ? > > > > > >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you > >> are > >> encouraged to contact and work with third-party > information software > >> vendors > >> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. > >> > > > > If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these > parties and > > get it resolved, why does it send a notice telling us with > this? Next > > week will we see a notice that ARIN won't be involved in saving > > starving children in Africa? I imagine that ARIN will be very busy > > informing us of every thing it does not plan to work on ... is this > > helpful? Honestly? > > > > Entire message below: > > > >> Per a request from an ARIN customer, ARIN is sending you > this letter > >> as > >> a courtesy notification of problems some registrants of ARIN-issued > >> IPv4 > >> addresses have experienced. > >> > >> Some geolocation and content providers are misidentifying > ARIN-issued > >> address space as being outside the ARIN region. Common problems > >> experienced > >> by ARIN registrants over the last two years include: > >> > >> - search engines misidentifying the addresses as being in South > >> America; > >> - content caching providers sending traffic via nodes in South > >> America; and > >> - e-commerce transactions failing or being delaying due to fraud > >> prevention > >> procedures being triggered when the payment processing system > >> believes the > >> transaction is originating in South America. > >> > >> Registrants have experienced these problems both with new IANA- > >> issued /8s > >> (like 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8) and with /8s which ARIN has > >> issued and > >> re-issued over many years (like 63.0.0.0/8). > >> > >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you > >> are > >> encouraged to contact and work with third-party > information software > >> vendors > >> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Leslie Nobile > >> Director, Registration Services > >> American Registry for Internet Numbers > >> > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless e-mail security system - powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive managed e-mail security service, visit http://www.cw.com/uk/emailprotection/ The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may also be subject to legal privilege. It is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. If you are not named above as a recipient, you must not read, copy, disclose, forward or otherwise use the information contained in this email. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender (whose contact details are above) immediately by reply e-mail and delete the message and any attachments without retaining any copies. Cable and Wireless plc Registered in England and Wales.Company Number 238525 Registered office: 3rd Floor, 26 Red Lion Square, London WC1R 4HQ From michael at staff.openaccess.org Fri Feb 27 06:09:49 2009 From: michael at staff.openaccess.org (Michael DeMan (OA)) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 03:09:49 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: <602ACF092EFFB044931BD8746C19AD2F014E510D@gbcwswiem006.ad.plc.cwintra.com> References: <602ACF092EFFB044931BD8746C19AD2F014E510D@gbcwswiem006.ad.plc.cwintra.com> Message-ID: <49A7C9FD.9050905@staff.openaccess.org> I think the essence of the problem should be fixed with ipv6, correct? We all realize it will take a good 30-50 years to completely wind down ipv4, and what we are talking about in those sorts of time frames are entire generations of human beings. I'm not offering any answers, but am curious to ensure that folks are keeping these sorts of time frames in mind when they determine policy. - Mike Smales, Robert wrote: > Hi, > > Here in the UK I get this kind of issue every couple of months, either because Google is giving customers in the UK google.de or google.fr or because people can't access the BBC's web TV because the BBC thinks they are outside the UK. I hate geolocation providers with a passion because there is no way in principle that they can do what they say they can do, and in practice the results they give are wildly inaccurate. > > I can understand why the BBC needs to do this (because copyright works with national boundaries) but I don't think it is reasonable for Google to give Marcel or Fritz google.fr or google.de when they typed www.google.com > > Robert > Robert Smales > IP Provide Engineer > Cable&Wireless Europe, Asia & US > www.cw.com > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Brad Anouar >> Sent: 27 February 2009 03:28 >> To: arin-discuss at arin.net >> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? >> >> >> Has anyone experienced any issues relating to this? We are >> using a little subnet in the 63.0.0.0/8 IP space, but so far >> so good. I will have to research this online to find out if >> there are any proactive measures worth taking. >> >> Brad >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Scott Berkman >> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:02 PM >> To: 'Kelvin Williams'; arin-discuss at arin.net >> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? >> >> My best guess is this is exactly what they were trying to >> avoid. I bet it >> they have been getting inundated themselves with calls/emails >> about these >> issues, but can't actually fix it since they don't control >> their services. >> >> I'd do something similar if my customers were flooding us >> about an issue >> that wasn't our fault and we couldn't fix on our own. >> >> Not saying they couldn't have had a better, more helpful >> email, but I get >> why they sent it. >> >> -Scott >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] >> On Behalf Of Kelvin Williams >> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:55 PM >> To: arin-discuss at arin.net >> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? >> >> I would have to concur. As a current holder of a block in >> the affected >> ranges our helpdesk has been inundated with complaint calls from our >> end-users. For example, Google redirects our users with IPs in the >> affected >> ranges to their German version, etc. >> >> While we haven't experienced any true routing issues, we have tried to >> contact some of the content providers and companies like Google to no >> avail. >> >> >> At the bare minimum, ARIN could have provided to block >> holders via the new >> superduper secure website contact numbers or e-mail addresses to the >> organizations which we know are causing these types of >> issues. We have >> all >> but abandoned any hopes of resolving the issue and merely crossed our >> fingers in hopes that these content and geo-location providers would >> re-query ARIN's WHOIS at some time in the immediate future. >> >> I can't speak for all, but at our company, we don't have >> anyone available >> to >> research for contacts, fill out web-forms-to-nowhere, or >> leave voicemails >> all day in mailboxes that don't get checked. >> >> kw >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] >> On Behalf Of Sean Cheesman >> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:40 PM >> To: Scott Leibrand; Jo Rhett >> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net >> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? >> >> I disagree that this was a reasonable statement from ARIN. >> They listed no >> examples of what "content providers" are causing problems, >> and only leave >> it >> up to us to determine if there is a problem, and then try to >> resolve it on >> our own. Yes, it may now be easier to troubleshoot a problem >> because now >> I >> may say "hey, didn't I get an email from ARIN a while back >> warning me of a >> problem?" but that doesn't really help me be proactive about >> the issue. >> >> Sean >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] >> On Behalf Of Scott Leibrand >> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:36 PM >> To: Jo Rhett >> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net >> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? >> >> Jo, >> >> I was not involved in any discussions around that notice, but >> when I got >> it, I interpreted it as saying, "We're aware of a problem, and believe >> it may affect a lot of you. We can't fix it for you, but here's what >> you need to know to get it fixed if you're affected." >> >> Quite reasonable, IMO. >> >> -Scott >> >> Jo Rhett wrote: >> >>> Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN contacts >>> (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that says "talk to the >>> hand" ? >>> >>> >>> >>>> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >>>> are >>>> encouraged to contact and work with third-party >>>> >> information software >> >>>> vendors >>>> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >>>> >>>> >>> If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these >>> >> parties and >> >>> get it resolved, why does it send a notice telling us with >>> >> this? Next >> >>> week will we see a notice that ARIN won't be involved in saving >>> starving children in Africa? I imagine that ARIN will be very busy >>> informing us of every thing it does not plan to work on ... is this >>> helpful? Honestly? >>> >>> Entire message below: >>> >>> >>>> Per a request from an ARIN customer, ARIN is sending you >>>> >> this letter >> >>>> as >>>> a courtesy notification of problems some registrants of ARIN-issued >>>> IPv4 >>>> addresses have experienced. >>>> >>>> Some geolocation and content providers are misidentifying >>>> >> ARIN-issued >> >>>> address space as being outside the ARIN region. Common problems >>>> experienced >>>> by ARIN registrants over the last two years include: >>>> >>>> - search engines misidentifying the addresses as being in South >>>> America; >>>> - content caching providers sending traffic via nodes in South >>>> America; and >>>> - e-commerce transactions failing or being delaying due to fraud >>>> prevention >>>> procedures being triggered when the payment processing system >>>> believes the >>>> transaction is originating in South America. >>>> >>>> Registrants have experienced these problems both with new IANA- >>>> issued /8s >>>> (like 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8) and with /8s which ARIN has >>>> issued and >>>> re-issued over many years (like 63.0.0.0/8). >>>> >>>> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >>>> are >>>> encouraged to contact and work with third-party >>>> >> information software >> >>>> vendors >>>> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Leslie Nobile >>>> Director, Registration Services >>>> American Registry for Internet Numbers >>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >> >> > > This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless e-mail security system - powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive managed e-mail security service, visit http://www.cw.com/uk/emailprotection/ > > The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may also be subject to legal privilege. It is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. If you are not named above as a recipient, you must not read, copy, disclose, forward or otherwise use the information contained in this email. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender (whose contact details are above) immediately by reply e-mail and delete the message and any attachments without retaining any copies. > > Cable and Wireless plc > Registered in England and Wales.Company Number 238525 > Registered office: 3rd Floor, 26 Red Lion Square, London WC1R 4HQ > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > > > From rs at seastrom.com Fri Feb 27 09:33:59 2009 From: rs at seastrom.com (Robert E. Seastrom) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 09:33:59 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: <49A7519F.2080200@gmail.com> (Scott Leibrand's message of "Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:36:15 -0800") References: <49A7519F.2080200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <86hc2g3q5k.fsf@seastrom.com> Scott Leibrand writes: > I was not involved in any discussions around that notice, but when I got > it, I interpreted it as saying, "We're aware of a problem, and believe > it may affect a lot of you. We can't fix it for you, but here's what > you need to know to get it fixed if you're affected." I think the problem people are having with this email is that exhortations to "contact and work with third-party information software vendors and/or the content proviers directly" with no further information is not particularly helpful. A more reasonable way to handle this would be for the said software vendors and content providers (who are no doubt interested in providing a quality user experience) to collaborate, perhaps with ARIN serving as a facilitator, to provide a method for those with address space to check the veracity of the geodata mappings. "We know about the problem, and you'll need to talk to other folks to get the problem fixed" without naming names might be interpreted to be sending the message that ARIN doesn't care. -r From heather.schiller at verizonbusiness.com Fri Feb 27 11:23:42 2009 From: heather.schiller at verizonbusiness.com (Heather Schiller) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 11:23:42 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: <49A7C9FD.9050905@staff.openaccess.org> References: <602ACF092EFFB044931BD8746C19AD2F014E510D@gbcwswiem006.ad.plc.cwintra.com> <49A7C9FD.9050905@staff.openaccess.org> Message-ID: <49A8138E.6020009@verizonbusiness.com> I am sure that all RIR's get complaints when new space is released about folks not accepting traffic from them or geo-location being messed up. I think what ARIN is trying to say is, we don't have control over those networks, you have to work with the folks directly. Remember that ARIN makes no guarantee about the routability of a netblock, and can't force any organization to accept traffic or update their bogon filters. The best they can do is educate (both sides), and ultimately it's up to the network operators to decide what traffic they accept or deny. Same goes for blacklists. By the way, same goes for ISP's - complaining to an ISP that their customer has an out of date bogon filter is about the same as complaining to ARIN. If you ring a doorbell, the person on the other side gets to make a decision about whether to answer. Would you go complain to the police that the person didn't answer? You might leave them a note telling them why they should reconsider, but there isn't much you can or anyone else can do about it. Michael, what about this problem do you think would be any different with IPv6? Assignments might happen on a slower scale, but nothing is inherently different w/ IPv6. Space is still assigned geographically, so geo-location services and issues will likely remain the same. Space is still assigned to RIR's on an as needed basis, so you still have a list of bogon/unallocated space that people could build filters against. People are already offering v6 bogon filtering advice: http://www.cymru.com/Bogons/v6bogon.html http://www.cymru.com/Bogons/v6top.html I also don't understand your suggestion about keeping this in mind when determining policy. You can't guarantee routability/acceptance through policy. --Heather ==================================================== Heather Schiller Verizon Business Customer Security 1.800.900.0241 IP Address Management help4u at verizonbusiness.com ===================================================== Michael DeMan (OA) wrote: > I think the essence of the problem should be fixed with ipv6, correct? > > We all realize it will take a good 30-50 years to completely wind down > ipv4, and what we are talking about in those sorts of time frames are > entire generations of human beings. > > > I'm not offering any answers, but am curious to ensure that folks are > keeping these sorts of time frames in mind when they determine policy. > > - Mike > > > Smales, Robert wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Here in the UK I get this kind of issue every couple of months, either because Google is giving customers in the UK google.de or google.fr or because people can't access the BBC's web TV because the BBC thinks they are outside the UK. I hate geolocation providers with a passion because there is no way in principle that they can do what they say they can do, and in practice the results they give are wildly inaccurate. >> >> I can understand why the BBC needs to do this (because copyright works with national boundaries) but I don't think it is reasonable for Google to give Marcel or Fritz google.fr or google.de when they typed www.google.com >> >> Robert >> Robert Smales >> IP Provide Engineer >> Cable&Wireless Europe, Asia & US >> www.cw.com >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Brad Anouar >>> Sent: 27 February 2009 03:28 >>> To: arin-discuss at arin.net >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? >>> >>> >>> Has anyone experienced any issues relating to this? We are >>> using a little subnet in the 63.0.0.0/8 IP space, but so far >>> so good. I will have to research this online to find out if >>> there are any proactive measures worth taking. >>> >>> Brad >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Scott Berkman >>> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:02 PM >>> To: 'Kelvin Williams'; arin-discuss at arin.net >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? >>> >>> My best guess is this is exactly what they were trying to >>> avoid. I bet it >>> they have been getting inundated themselves with calls/emails >>> about these >>> issues, but can't actually fix it since they don't control >>> their services. >>> >>> I'd do something similar if my customers were flooding us >>> about an issue >>> that wasn't our fault and we couldn't fix on our own. >>> >>> Not saying they couldn't have had a better, more helpful >>> email, but I get >>> why they sent it. >>> >>> -Scott >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] >>> On Behalf Of Kelvin Williams >>> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:55 PM >>> To: arin-discuss at arin.net >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? >>> >>> I would have to concur. As a current holder of a block in >>> the affected >>> ranges our helpdesk has been inundated with complaint calls from our >>> end-users. For example, Google redirects our users with IPs in the >>> affected >>> ranges to their German version, etc. >>> >>> While we haven't experienced any true routing issues, we have tried to >>> contact some of the content providers and companies like Google to no >>> avail. >>> >>> >>> At the bare minimum, ARIN could have provided to block >>> holders via the new >>> superduper secure website contact numbers or e-mail addresses to the >>> organizations which we know are causing these types of >>> issues. We have >>> all >>> but abandoned any hopes of resolving the issue and merely crossed our >>> fingers in hopes that these content and geo-location providers would >>> re-query ARIN's WHOIS at some time in the immediate future. >>> >>> I can't speak for all, but at our company, we don't have >>> anyone available >>> to >>> research for contacts, fill out web-forms-to-nowhere, or >>> leave voicemails >>> all day in mailboxes that don't get checked. >>> >>> kw >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] >>> On Behalf Of Sean Cheesman >>> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:40 PM >>> To: Scott Leibrand; Jo Rhett >>> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? >>> >>> I disagree that this was a reasonable statement from ARIN. >>> They listed no >>> examples of what "content providers" are causing problems, >>> and only leave >>> it >>> up to us to determine if there is a problem, and then try to >>> resolve it on >>> our own. Yes, it may now be easier to troubleshoot a problem >>> because now >>> I >>> may say "hey, didn't I get an email from ARIN a while back >>> warning me of a >>> problem?" but that doesn't really help me be proactive about >>> the issue. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] >>> On Behalf Of Scott Leibrand >>> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:36 PM >>> To: Jo Rhett >>> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? >>> >>> Jo, >>> >>> I was not involved in any discussions around that notice, but >>> when I got >>> it, I interpreted it as saying, "We're aware of a problem, and believe >>> it may affect a lot of you. We can't fix it for you, but here's what >>> you need to know to get it fixed if you're affected." >>> >>> Quite reasonable, IMO. >>> >>> -Scott >>> >>> Jo Rhett wrote: >>> >>>> Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN contacts >>>> (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that says "talk to the >>>> hand" ? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >>>>> are >>>>> encouraged to contact and work with third-party >>>>> >>> information software >>> >>>>> vendors >>>>> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these >>>> >>> parties and >>> >>>> get it resolved, why does it send a notice telling us with >>>> >>> this? Next >>> >>>> week will we see a notice that ARIN won't be involved in saving >>>> starving children in Africa? I imagine that ARIN will be very busy >>>> informing us of every thing it does not plan to work on ... is this >>>> helpful? Honestly? >>>> >>>> Entire message below: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Per a request from an ARIN customer, ARIN is sending you >>>>> >>> this letter >>> >>>>> as >>>>> a courtesy notification of problems some registrants of ARIN-issued >>>>> IPv4 >>>>> addresses have experienced. >>>>> >>>>> Some geolocation and content providers are misidentifying >>>>> >>> ARIN-issued >>> >>>>> address space as being outside the ARIN region. Common problems >>>>> experienced >>>>> by ARIN registrants over the last two years include: >>>>> >>>>> - search engines misidentifying the addresses as being in South >>>>> America; >>>>> - content caching providers sending traffic via nodes in South >>>>> America; and >>>>> - e-commerce transactions failing or being delaying due to fraud >>>>> prevention >>>>> procedures being triggered when the payment processing system >>>>> believes the >>>>> transaction is originating in South America. >>>>> >>>>> Registrants have experienced these problems both with new IANA- >>>>> issued /8s >>>>> (like 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8) and with /8s which ARIN has >>>>> issued and >>>>> re-issued over many years (like 63.0.0.0/8). >>>>> >>>>> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >>>>> are >>>>> encouraged to contact and work with third-party >>>>> >>> information software >>> >>>>> vendors >>>>> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Leslie Nobile >>>>> Director, Registration Services >>>>> American Registry for Internet Numbers >>>>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARIN-Discuss >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARIN-Discuss >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARIN-Discuss >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARIN-Discuss >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARIN-Discuss >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >>> >>> >> This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless e-mail security system - powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive managed e-mail security service, visit http://www.cw.com/uk/emailprotection/ >> >> The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may also be subject to legal privilege. It is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. If you are not named above as a recipient, you must not read, copy, disclose, forward or otherwise use the information contained in this email. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender (whose contact details are above) immediately by reply e-mail and delete the message and any attachments without retaining any copies. >> >> Cable and Wireless plc >> Registered in England and Wales.Company Number 238525 >> Registered office: 3rd Floor, 26 Red Lion Square, London WC1R 4HQ >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > From pete.templin at texlink.com Fri Feb 27 11:41:56 2009 From: pete.templin at texlink.com (Pete Templin) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 08:41:56 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: <49A7519F.2080200@gmail.com> References: <49A7519F.2080200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <911E605F382BD4488E01018EC2BF1F570C0109EA@exchange2k7.adpw.pacwest.com> Scott, Regardless of whether the message was reasonable, I think the delivery method was flawed: I think the ARIN-announce mailing list should have been the first method of announcement, and only if the message seemed to fall on deaf ears should it later be distributed to some contacts, not all contacts. Perhaps in doing so, ARIN could have sent it from an address other than do-not-reply at arin.net. Pete Templin IP Engineer TexLink Communications A Pac-West Telecomm, Inc. company Tel: +1 (210) 892-4183 Fax: +1 (210) 892-4101 Main: +1 877 774 4100 pete.templin at texlink.com www.texlink.com Parent Company: Pac-West Telecomm, Inc. Main: +1 877 626 4325 www.pacwest.com -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Scott Leibrand Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 8:36 PM To: Jo Rhett Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? Jo, I was not involved in any discussions around that notice, but when I got it, I interpreted it as saying, "We're aware of a problem, and believe it may affect a lot of you. We can't fix it for you, but here's what you need to know to get it fixed if you're affected." Quite reasonable, IMO. -Scott Jo Rhett wrote: > Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN contacts > (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that says "talk to the > hand" ? > > >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >> are >> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >> vendors >> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >> > > If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these parties and > get it resolved, why does it send a notice telling us with this? Next > week will we see a notice that ARIN won't be involved in saving > starving children in Africa? I imagine that ARIN will be very busy > informing us of every thing it does not plan to work on ... is this > helpful? Honestly? > > Entire message below: > >> Per a request from an ARIN customer, ARIN is sending you this letter >> as >> a courtesy notification of problems some registrants of ARIN-issued >> IPv4 >> addresses have experienced. >> >> Some geolocation and content providers are misidentifying ARIN-issued >> address space as being outside the ARIN region. Common problems >> experienced >> by ARIN registrants over the last two years include: >> >> - search engines misidentifying the addresses as being in South >> America; >> - content caching providers sending traffic via nodes in South >> America; and >> - e-commerce transactions failing or being delaying due to fraud >> prevention >> procedures being triggered when the payment processing system >> believes the >> transaction is originating in South America. >> >> Registrants have experienced these problems both with new IANA- >> issued /8s >> (like 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8) and with /8s which ARIN has >> issued and >> re-issued over many years (like 63.0.0.0/8). >> >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, you >> are >> encouraged to contact and work with third-party information software >> vendors >> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >> >> Regards, >> >> Leslie Nobile >> Director, Registration Services >> American Registry for Internet Numbers >> _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From tedm at ipinc.net Fri Feb 27 13:23:10 2009 From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 10:23:10 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: <911E605F382BD4488E01018EC2BF1F570C0109EA@exchange2k7.adpw.pacwest.com> References: <49A7519F.2080200@gmail.com> <911E605F382BD4488E01018EC2BF1F570C0109EA@exchange2k7.adpw.pacwest.com> Message-ID: <397E87F9E5564F0AB005B42558B958D8@tedsdesk> I disagree. If you put your e-mail address on a POC with ARIN then it's public record and if you can't deal with that, then nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to get portable number blocks from ARIN. Get them from one of your upstream ISPs and let that ISP handle e-mails to the POC for that block. You accept some responsibilities when you request and obtain portable numbers. One of them is posting an e-mail contact that people can use to reach you and READING MAIL SENT TO IT. If you don't like this, well then there's LOTS OF OTHER PEOPLE out there who want IPv4 and are MORE THAN WILLING to meet this SIMPLE responsibility. I have had my personal e-mail address available on various websites, plus POC's and domain name POCs for years - I use it in all my public posting, and I have NO PROBLEM dealing with the spam. Google it up - I just did and got about 3K responses. I unconditionally reject the LAME argument that public e-mail addresses ae not to be mailed to. This is PART OF YOUR JOB that your employer is paying you for. Suck it up and deal with it. NOBODY is too important to read a legitimate* e-mail sent to them Ted * Legitimate e-mail: NOT containing baldness cures, penis enlargements, requests for money, get rich quick scams, basically anything that is trying to get money from you. > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Pete Templin > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 8:42 AM > To: Scott Leibrand; Jo Rhett > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > > Scott, > > Regardless of whether the message was reasonable, I think the > delivery method was flawed: I think the ARIN-announce mailing > list should have been the first method of announcement, and > only if the message seemed to fall on deaf ears should it > later be distributed to some contacts, not all contacts. > Perhaps in doing so, ARIN could have sent it from an address > other than do-not-reply at arin.net. > > Pete Templin > IP Engineer > TexLink Communications > A Pac-West Telecomm, Inc. company > > Tel: +1 (210) 892-4183 > Fax: +1 (210) 892-4101 > Main: +1 877 774 4100 > pete.templin at texlink.com > www.texlink.com > > Parent Company: > Pac-West Telecomm, Inc. > Main: +1 877 626 4325 > www.pacwest.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Scott Leibrand > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 8:36 PM > To: Jo Rhett > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > > Jo, > > I was not involved in any discussions around that notice, but > when I got it, I interpreted it as saying, "We're aware of a > problem, and believe it may affect a lot of you. We can't > fix it for you, but here's what you need to know to get it > fixed if you're affected." > > Quite reasonable, IMO. > > -Scott > > Jo Rhett wrote: > > Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN contacts > > (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that says "talk to the > > hand" ? > > > > > >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of > problems, you > >> are encouraged to contact and work with third-party information > >> software vendors and/or the content providers directly to effect > >> changes. > >> > > > > If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these > parties and > > get it resolved, why does it send a notice telling us with > this? Next > > week will we see a notice that ARIN won't be involved in saving > > starving children in Africa? I imagine that ARIN will be very busy > > informing us of every thing it does not plan to work on ... is this > > helpful? Honestly? > > > > Entire message below: > > > >> Per a request from an ARIN customer, ARIN is sending you > this letter > >> as a courtesy notification of problems some registrants of > >> ARIN-issued > >> IPv4 > >> addresses have experienced. > >> > >> Some geolocation and content providers are misidentifying > ARIN-issued > >> address space as being outside the ARIN region. Common problems > >> experienced by ARIN registrants over the last two years include: > >> > >> - search engines misidentifying the addresses as being in South > >> America; > >> - content caching providers sending traffic via nodes in South > >> America; and > >> - e-commerce transactions failing or being delaying due to fraud > >> prevention procedures being triggered when the payment processing > >> system believes the transaction is originating in South America. > >> > >> Registrants have experienced these problems both with new IANA- > >> issued /8s (like 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8) and with /8s > which ARIN > >> has issued and re-issued over many years (like 63.0.0.0/8). > >> > >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of > problems, you > >> are encouraged to contact and work with third-party information > >> software vendors and/or the content providers directly to effect > >> changes. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Leslie Nobile > >> Director, Registration Services > >> American Registry for Internet Numbers > >> > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > From scheesman at level365.com Fri Feb 27 13:28:25 2009 From: scheesman at level365.com (Sean Cheesman) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:28:25 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: <397E87F9E5564F0AB005B42558B958D8@tedsdesk> References: <49A7519F.2080200@gmail.com> <911E605F382BD4488E01018EC2BF1F570C0109EA@exchange2k7.adpw.pacwest.com> <397E87F9E5564F0AB005B42558B958D8@tedsdesk> Message-ID: I think you're missing the point. The reason ARIN has multiple POC roles is to direct requests to the proper POC. Just blindly emailing all POCs on record is irresponsible and resolves nothing. That was the point. No one is arguing that these email addresses are somehow off limits. This is obviously a sensitive issue for you, but it shouldn't be as I think you read way too much into what our concerns were. Sean -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Ted Mittelstaedt Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 1:23 PM To: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? I disagree. If you put your e-mail address on a POC with ARIN then it's public record and if you can't deal with that, then nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to get portable number blocks from ARIN. Get them from one of your upstream ISPs and let that ISP handle e-mails to the POC for that block. You accept some responsibilities when you request and obtain portable numbers. One of them is posting an e-mail contact that people can use to reach you and READING MAIL SENT TO IT. If you don't like this, well then there's LOTS OF OTHER PEOPLE out there who want IPv4 and are MORE THAN WILLING to meet this SIMPLE responsibility. I have had my personal e-mail address available on various websites, plus POC's and domain name POCs for years - I use it in all my public posting, and I have NO PROBLEM dealing with the spam. Google it up - I just did and got about 3K responses. I unconditionally reject the LAME argument that public e-mail addresses ae not to be mailed to. This is PART OF YOUR JOB that your employer is paying you for. Suck it up and deal with it. NOBODY is too important to read a legitimate* e-mail sent to them Ted * Legitimate e-mail: NOT containing baldness cures, penis enlargements, requests for money, get rich quick scams, basically anything that is trying to get money from you. > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Pete Templin > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 8:42 AM > To: Scott Leibrand; Jo Rhett > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > > Scott, > > Regardless of whether the message was reasonable, I think the > delivery method was flawed: I think the ARIN-announce mailing > list should have been the first method of announcement, and > only if the message seemed to fall on deaf ears should it > later be distributed to some contacts, not all contacts. > Perhaps in doing so, ARIN could have sent it from an address > other than do-not-reply at arin.net. > > Pete Templin > IP Engineer > TexLink Communications > A Pac-West Telecomm, Inc. company > > Tel: +1 (210) 892-4183 > Fax: +1 (210) 892-4101 > Main: +1 877 774 4100 > pete.templin at texlink.com > www.texlink.com > > Parent Company: > Pac-West Telecomm, Inc. > Main: +1 877 626 4325 > www.pacwest.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Scott Leibrand > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 8:36 PM > To: Jo Rhett > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > > Jo, > > I was not involved in any discussions around that notice, but > when I got it, I interpreted it as saying, "We're aware of a > problem, and believe it may affect a lot of you. We can't > fix it for you, but here's what you need to know to get it > fixed if you're affected." > > Quite reasonable, IMO. > > -Scott > > Jo Rhett wrote: > > Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN contacts > > (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that says "talk to the > > hand" ? > > > > > >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of > problems, you > >> are encouraged to contact and work with third-party information > >> software vendors and/or the content providers directly to effect > >> changes. > >> > > > > If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these > parties and > > get it resolved, why does it send a notice telling us with > this? Next > > week will we see a notice that ARIN won't be involved in saving > > starving children in Africa? I imagine that ARIN will be very busy > > informing us of every thing it does not plan to work on ... is this > > helpful? Honestly? > > > > Entire message below: > > > >> Per a request from an ARIN customer, ARIN is sending you > this letter > >> as a courtesy notification of problems some registrants of > >> ARIN-issued > >> IPv4 > >> addresses have experienced. > >> > >> Some geolocation and content providers are misidentifying > ARIN-issued > >> address space as being outside the ARIN region. Common problems > >> experienced by ARIN registrants over the last two years include: > >> > >> - search engines misidentifying the addresses as being in South > >> America; > >> - content caching providers sending traffic via nodes in South > >> America; and > >> - e-commerce transactions failing or being delaying due to fraud > >> prevention procedures being triggered when the payment processing > >> system believes the transaction is originating in South America. > >> > >> Registrants have experienced these problems both with new IANA- > >> issued /8s (like 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8) and with /8s > which ARIN > >> has issued and re-issued over many years (like 63.0.0.0/8). > >> > >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of > problems, you > >> are encouraged to contact and work with third-party information > >> software vendors and/or the content providers directly to effect > >> changes. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Leslie Nobile > >> Director, Registration Services > >> American Registry for Internet Numbers > >> > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From tedm at ipinc.net Fri Feb 27 13:29:29 2009 From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 10:29:29 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Jo Rhett > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 5:35 PM > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > > Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN > contacts (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that > says "talk to the hand" ? > Why don't you e-mail the author of the e-mail at ARIN and ask? > > If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these > parties and get it resolved, why does it send a notice > telling us with this? This is an extreme simplification of a complex issue. ARIN is US and will do anything WE want. If you want ARIN to start mediating then SUBMIT A POLICY MODIFICATION. Once we are post-IPv4 runout, all new IPv4 assignments will be "dirty" and I imagine this issue will become more serious. I would in fact support a complaint mechanism at ARIN that would be specifically for handling complaints about "dirty" address assignments. It's too bad that nobody thought to design one and make participation in it a prerequisite of obtaining IP addresses, back in the olden days. But that doesen't mean that we can't start doing it now. Ted From tedm at ipinc.net Fri Feb 27 13:34:02 2009 From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 10:34:02 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: References: <49A7519F.2080200@gmail.com><911E605F382BD4488E01018EC2BF1F570C0109EA@exchange2k7.adpw.pacwest.com> <397E87F9E5564F0AB005B42558B958D8@tedsdesk> Message-ID: <5CF992D6DF184BDBB434394455072A13@tedsdesk> > -----Original Message----- > From: Sean Cheesman [mailto:scheesman at level365.com] > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:28 AM > To: Ted Mittelstaedt; arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > > I think you're missing the point. The reason ARIN has > multiple POC roles is to direct requests to the proper POC. > Just blindly emailing all POCs on record is irresponsible and > resolves nothing. That was the point. No one is arguing > that these email addresses are somehow off limits. You missed the operative sentence in the post I was responding to: "...Regardless of whether the message was reasonable..." The poster is basing his decision on opposing the mailing purely based on the fact it was sent to all POCs, NOT on the idea that it was misdirected to some of the wrong POCs. If the poster had said that "due to the content this shouldn't have been sent to all POCs" then I might have agreed if he had posted some logical arguments. But, he didn't - he said specifically he didn't care about content. THAT is the problem. I am glad that you agree that content DOES MATTER in these mass e-mailings. Ted > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Ted Mittelstaedt > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 1:23 PM > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > > > I disagree. If you put your e-mail address on a POC with > ARIN then it's public record and if you can't deal with that, > then nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to > get portable number blocks from ARIN. Get them from one of > your upstream ISPs and let that ISP handle e-mails to the POC > for that block. > > You accept some responsibilities when you request and obtain > portable numbers. One of them is posting an e-mail contact > that people can use to reach you and READING MAIL SENT TO IT. > If you don't like this, well then there's LOTS OF OTHER > PEOPLE out there who want IPv4 and are MORE THAN WILLING to > meet this SIMPLE responsibility. > > I have had my personal e-mail address available on various > websites, plus POC's and domain name POCs for years - I use > it in all my public posting, and I have NO PROBLEM dealing > with the spam. Google it up - I just did and got about 3K responses. > I unconditionally reject the LAME argument that public e-mail > addresses ae not to be mailed to. > > This is PART OF YOUR JOB that your employer is paying you > for. Suck it up and deal with it. NOBODY is too important > to read a legitimate* e-mail sent to them > > Ted > > * Legitimate e-mail: NOT containing baldness cures, penis > enlargements, requests for money, get rich quick scams, > basically anything that is trying to get money from you. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Pete Templin > > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 8:42 AM > > To: Scott Leibrand; Jo Rhett > > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to > the hand" ? > > > > Scott, > > > > Regardless of whether the message was reasonable, I think > the delivery > > method was flawed: I think the ARIN-announce mailing list > should have > > been the first method of announcement, and only if the > message seemed > > to fall on deaf ears should it later be distributed to some > contacts, > > not all contacts. > > Perhaps in doing so, ARIN could have sent it from an address other > > than do-not-reply at arin.net. > > > > Pete Templin > > IP Engineer > > TexLink Communications > > A Pac-West Telecomm, Inc. company > > > > Tel: +1 (210) 892-4183 > > Fax: +1 (210) 892-4101 > > Main: +1 877 774 4100 > > pete.templin at texlink.com > > www.texlink.com > > > > Parent Company: > > Pac-West Telecomm, Inc. > > Main: +1 877 626 4325 > > www.pacwest.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Scott Leibrand > > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 8:36 PM > > To: Jo Rhett > > Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net > > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to > the hand" ? > > > > Jo, > > > > I was not involved in any discussions around that notice, > but when I > > got it, I interpreted it as saying, "We're aware of a problem, and > > believe it may affect a lot of you. We can't fix it for you, but > > here's what you need to know to get it fixed if you're affected." > > > > Quite reasonable, IMO. > > > > -Scott > > > > Jo Rhett wrote: > > > Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our > ARIN contacts > > > (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that says > "talk to the > > > hand" ? > > > > > > > > >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of > > problems, you > > >> are encouraged to contact and work with third-party information > > >> software vendors and/or the content providers directly to effect > > >> changes. > > >> > > > > > > If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these > > parties and > > > get it resolved, why does it send a notice telling us with > > this? Next > > > week will we see a notice that ARIN won't be involved in saving > > > starving children in Africa? I imagine that ARIN will be > very busy > > > informing us of every thing it does not plan to work on > ... is this > > > helpful? Honestly? > > > > > > Entire message below: > > > > > >> Per a request from an ARIN customer, ARIN is sending you > > this letter > > >> as a courtesy notification of problems some registrants of > > >> ARIN-issued > > >> IPv4 > > >> addresses have experienced. > > >> > > >> Some geolocation and content providers are misidentifying > > ARIN-issued > > >> address space as being outside the ARIN region. Common problems > > >> experienced by ARIN registrants over the last two years include: > > >> > > >> - search engines misidentifying the addresses as being in South > > >> America; > > >> - content caching providers sending traffic via nodes in South > > >> America; and > > >> - e-commerce transactions failing or being delaying due to fraud > > >> prevention procedures being triggered when the payment > processing > > >> system believes the transaction is originating in South America. > > >> > > >> Registrants have experienced these problems both with new IANA- > > >> issued /8s (like 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8) and with /8s > > which ARIN > > >> has issued and re-issued over many years (like 63.0.0.0/8). > > >> > > >> If you or your peers experience any of these types of > > problems, you > > >> are encouraged to contact and work with third-party information > > >> software vendors and/or the content providers directly to effect > > >> changes. > > >> > > >> Regards, > > >> > > >> Leslie Nobile > > >> Director, Registration Services > > >> American Registry for Internet Numbers > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > ARIN-Discuss > > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed > to the ARIN > > Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > > _______________________________________________ > > ARIN-Discuss > > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed > to the ARIN > > Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > > From ocontant at dcdivision.com Fri Feb 27 13:53:08 2009 From: ocontant at dcdivision.com (Olivier Contant) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:53:08 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004401c9990c$a1ba05b0$e52e1110$@com> Hi Everyone, What about discarding this discussion which lead nowhere. If you want to complaint about the legitimate of this email, what about going to the next ARIN meeting and discuss about it with the right people. How many of you will attend the meeting? My point is: arguing about an email sent is pointless and of no importance compare of the real role of ARIN. Focusing on such small issue will make ARIN unable to go anywhere. I speak about the meeting because I feel people would not argue about this in a meeting because they would feel it is of no importance compare to other topic. For now on, your discussion is flooding a great number of mailbox and were much more annoying than the simple ARIN email "whatever how useful it was". Remind yourself that you are sending to a mailing list and that means you are sending to everyone. If you wish to reply to someone, do not reply all, this is a matter of opinion between 2 people not everyone from this mailing list. If you feel this should be read by everyone, ensure that your subject is useful to other than your own ego of arguing you're right and other are wrong. Without willing to be rude and sorry if I were, I would like to suggest to discuss about a way to help people rather than arguing if ARIN were right or not to send this email. Like the latest post of Ted, throwing idea of how we could handle dirty ip range is a much better idea of discussion. Regards, Olivier -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Ted Mittelstaedt Sent: 27 f?vrier 2009 13:29 To: 'Jo Rhett'; arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Jo Rhett > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 5:35 PM > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? > > Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN > contacts (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that > says "talk to the hand" ? > Why don't you e-mail the author of the e-mail at ARIN and ask? > > If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these > parties and get it resolved, why does it send a notice > telling us with this? This is an extreme simplification of a complex issue. ARIN is US and will do anything WE want. If you want ARIN to start mediating then SUBMIT A POLICY MODIFICATION. Once we are post-IPv4 runout, all new IPv4 assignments will be "dirty" and I imagine this issue will become more serious. I would in fact support a complaint mechanism at ARIN that would be specifically for handling complaints about "dirty" address assignments. It's too bad that nobody thought to design one and make participation in it a prerequisite of obtaining IP addresses, back in the olden days. But that doesen't mean that we can't start doing it now. Ted _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From owen at delong.com Sat Feb 28 05:40:52 2009 From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 18:40:52 +0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the hand" ? Message-ID: <770AD717-F2BC-422F-AC28-0938C41653B8@delong.com> Uh, why do you believe that IPv6 makes any difference to this? IPv6 is not allocated on national boundaries, and, multinational organizations are not at all unlikely to move allocations around to different countries. I don't think that this is in any way improved or solved in IPv6. IPv6 solves several other problems, but, IP != geography and the sooner people realize that, the better things will be. Owen On Feb 27, 2009, at 7:09 PM, Michael DeMan (OA) wrote: > I think the essence of the problem should be fixed with ipv6, correct? > > We all realize it will take a good 30-50 years to completely wind down > ipv4, and what we are talking about in those sorts of time frames are > entire generations of human beings. > > > I'm not offering any answers, but am curious to ensure that folks are > keeping these sorts of time frames in mind when they determine policy. > > - Mike > > > Smales, Robert wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Here in the UK I get this kind of issue every couple of months, >> either because Google is giving customers in the UK google.de or >> google.fr or because people can't access the BBC's web TV because >> the BBC thinks they are outside the UK. I hate geolocation >> providers with a passion because there is no way in principle that >> they can do what they say they can do, and in practice the results >> they give are wildly inaccurate. >> >> I can understand why the BBC needs to do this (because copyright >> works with national boundaries) but I don't think it is reasonable >> for Google to give Marcel or Fritz google.fr or google.de when they >> typed www.google.com >> >> Robert >> Robert Smales >> IP Provide Engineer >> Cable&Wireless Europe, Asia & US >> www.cw.com >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Brad Anouar >>> Sent: 27 February 2009 03:28 >>> To: arin-discuss at arin.net >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the >>> hand" ? >>> >>> >>> Has anyone experienced any issues relating to this? We are >>> using a little subnet in the 63.0.0.0/8 IP space, but so far >>> so good. I will have to research this online to find out if >>> there are any proactive measures worth taking. >>> >>> Brad >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Scott Berkman >>> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 7:02 PM >>> To: 'Kelvin Williams'; arin-discuss at arin.net >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the >>> hand" ? >>> >>> My best guess is this is exactly what they were trying to >>> avoid. I bet it >>> they have been getting inundated themselves with calls/emails >>> about these >>> issues, but can't actually fix it since they don't control >>> their services. >>> >>> I'd do something similar if my customers were flooding us >>> about an issue >>> that wasn't our fault and we couldn't fix on our own. >>> >>> Not saying they couldn't have had a better, more helpful >>> email, but I get >>> why they sent it. >>> >>> -Scott >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] >>> On Behalf Of Kelvin Williams >>> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:55 PM >>> To: arin-discuss at arin.net >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the >>> hand" ? >>> >>> I would have to concur. As a current holder of a block in >>> the affected >>> ranges our helpdesk has been inundated with complaint calls from our >>> end-users. For example, Google redirects our users with IPs in the >>> affected >>> ranges to their German version, etc. >>> >>> While we haven't experienced any true routing issues, we have >>> tried to >>> contact some of the content providers and companies like Google to >>> no >>> avail. >>> >>> >>> At the bare minimum, ARIN could have provided to block >>> holders via the new >>> superduper secure website contact numbers or e-mail addresses to the >>> organizations which we know are causing these types of >>> issues. We have >>> all >>> but abandoned any hopes of resolving the issue and merely crossed >>> our >>> fingers in hopes that these content and geo-location providers would >>> re-query ARIN's WHOIS at some time in the immediate future. >>> >>> I can't speak for all, but at our company, we don't have >>> anyone available >>> to >>> research for contacts, fill out web-forms-to-nowhere, or >>> leave voicemails >>> all day in mailboxes that don't get checked. >>> >>> kw >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] >>> On Behalf Of Sean Cheesman >>> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:40 PM >>> To: Scott Leibrand; Jo Rhett >>> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the >>> hand" ? >>> >>> I disagree that this was a reasonable statement from ARIN. >>> They listed no >>> examples of what "content providers" are causing problems, >>> and only leave >>> it >>> up to us to determine if there is a problem, and then try to >>> resolve it on >>> our own. Yes, it may now be easier to troubleshoot a problem >>> because now >>> I >>> may say "hey, didn't I get an email from ARIN a while back >>> warning me of a >>> problem?" but that doesn't really help me be proactive about >>> the issue. >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] >>> On Behalf Of Scott Leibrand >>> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 9:36 PM >>> To: Jo Rhett >>> Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net >>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] ARIN spammed us with "talk to the >>> hand" ? >>> >>> Jo, >>> >>> I was not involved in any discussions around that notice, but >>> when I got >>> it, I interpreted it as saying, "We're aware of a problem, and >>> believe >>> it may affect a lot of you. We can't fix it for you, but here's >>> what >>> you need to know to get it fixed if you're affected." >>> >>> Quite reasonable, IMO. >>> >>> -Scott >>> >>> Jo Rhett wrote: >>> >>>> Can someone explain to me why ARIN spammed all of our ARIN contacts >>>> (including (A)buse contacts!) with a notice that says "talk to the >>>> hand" ? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, >>>>> you >>>>> are >>>>> encouraged to contact and work with third-party >>>>> >>> information software >>> >>>>> vendors >>>>> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> If ARIN can not and will not do anything to contact these >>>> >>> parties and >>> >>>> get it resolved, why does it send a notice telling us with >>>> >>> this? Next >>> >>>> week will we see a notice that ARIN won't be involved in saving >>>> starving children in Africa? I imagine that ARIN will be very busy >>>> informing us of every thing it does not plan to work on ... is this >>>> helpful? Honestly? >>>> >>>> Entire message below: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Per a request from an ARIN customer, ARIN is sending you >>>>> >>> this letter >>> >>>>> as >>>>> a courtesy notification of problems some registrants of ARIN- >>>>> issued >>>>> IPv4 >>>>> addresses have experienced. >>>>> >>>>> Some geolocation and content providers are misidentifying >>>>> >>> ARIN-issued >>> >>>>> address space as being outside the ARIN region. Common problems >>>>> experienced >>>>> by ARIN registrants over the last two years include: >>>>> >>>>> - search engines misidentifying the addresses as being in South >>>>> America; >>>>> - content caching providers sending traffic via nodes in South >>>>> America; and >>>>> - e-commerce transactions failing or being delaying due to fraud >>>>> prevention >>>>> procedures being triggered when the payment processing system >>>>> believes the >>>>> transaction is originating in South America. >>>>> >>>>> Registrants have experienced these problems both with new IANA- >>>>> issued /8s >>>>> (like 173.0.0.0/8 and 174.0.0.0/8) and with /8s which ARIN has >>>>> issued and >>>>> re-issued over many years (like 63.0.0.0/8). >>>>> >>>>> If you or your peers experience any of these types of problems, >>>>> you >>>>> are >>>>> encouraged to contact and work with third-party >>>>> >>> information software >>> >>>>> vendors >>>>> and/or the content providers directly to effect changes. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Leslie Nobile >>>>> Director, Registration Services >>>>> American Registry for Internet Numbers >>>>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARIN-Discuss >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARIN-Discuss >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARIN-Discuss >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARIN-Discuss >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARIN-Discuss >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >>> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >>> >>> >> >> This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless e- >> mail security system - powered by MessageLabs. For more information >> on a proactive managed e-mail security service, visit http://www.cw.com/uk/emailprotection/ >> >> The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may >> also be subject to legal privilege. It is intended only for the >> recipient(s) named above. If you are not named above as a >> recipient, you must not read, copy, disclose, forward or otherwise >> use the information contained in this email. If you have received >> this e-mail in error, please notify the sender (whose contact >> details are above) immediately by reply e-mail and delete the >> message and any attachments without retaining any copies. >> >> Cable and Wireless plc >> Registered in England and Wales.Company Number 238525 >> Registered office: 3rd Floor, 26 Red Lion Square, London WC1R 4HQ >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-Discuss >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >> Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From rich at atcnet.net Sat Feb 28 17:28:11 2009 From: rich at atcnet.net (Rich Redman) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:28:11 -0700 Subject: [arin-discuss] (no subject) Message-ID: <06D114EE357D4FB2B03E5BCBF034C6B6@RIch> Please quit sending me e-mails Rich Redman Vice President ATC Communications rich at atcnet.net 208-673-5335 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rob at wishcom.net Sat Feb 28 21:24:37 2009 From: rob at wishcom.net (Robert Abraham) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 20:24:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: [arin-discuss] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <06D114EE357D4FB2B03E5BCBF034C6B6@RIch> References: <06D114EE357D4FB2B03E5BCBF034C6B6@RIch> Message-ID: <54500.24.13.19.10.1235874277.squirrel@webmail.wishcom.net> follow the directions at the bottom of the e-mail and you'll stop getting them. > Please quit sending me e-mails > Rich Redman > Vice President > ATC Communications > rich at atcnet.net > 208-673-5335_______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact info at arin.net if you experience any issues. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: