From jrhett at svcolo.com Mon Mar 10 20:09:02 2008 From: jrhett at svcolo.com (Jo Rhett) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:09:02 -0700 Subject: [arin-discuss] call for sanity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 6, 2008, at 11:23 AM, Edward B. DREGER wrote: > I'm not in a position to speculate, but I hate to think what's > happening > to list membership and readership. I fear that we're losing both the > attention and the respect of our colleagues. "Losing" might be a bit optimistic. Try past tense. ...as noted by the fact that I (and many others I know) read the list so infrequently that I'm replying to your post about 30 days late. Not much reasonable debate happens here. I read it when I've got a beer in hand and am going to be amused by illiterate flamefests ;-) -- Jo Rhett senior geek Silicon Valley Colocation Support Phone: 408-400-0550 From michael.dillon at bt.com Thu Mar 27 08:25:09 2008 From: michael.dillon at bt.com (michael.dillon at bt.com) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:25:09 -0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Team Cymru Message-ID: If anyone has not been to the Team Cymru website recently, have a look at and particularly, their Services page. --Michael Dillon From info at arin.net Thu Mar 27 10:31:36 2008 From: info at arin.net (Member Services) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:31:36 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] New ARIN Mailing List Acceptable Use Policy Message-ID: <47EBAFC8.8080103@arin.net> This message is being sent to all ARIN mailing lists. If you are subscribed to more than one ARIN managed mailing list, you will receive multiple copies of this announcement. At its 10 March meeting, the ARIN Board of Trustees adopted a new Mailing List Acceptable Use Policy (AUP) for all ARIN public mailing lists. The AUP sets forth general guidelines of acceptable list conduct and calls out a number of specifically prohibited activities. A section on reporting violations and enforcement is included, along with procedures on how both are to be accomplished. The full text is available on the ARIN website as a link off the main mailing list page at: http://www.arin.net/mailing_lists/aup.html Regards, Member Services American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) From jlewis at atlantic.net Thu Mar 27 11:57:36 2008 From: jlewis at atlantic.net (jlewis at atlantic.net) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 11:57:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [arin-discuss] Team Cymru In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Mar 2008, michael.dillon at bt.com wrote: > If anyone has not been to the Team Cymru website recently, > have a look at and particularly, > their Services page. Are you comparing their Bogon Reference to ARIN's unallocated/returned prefixes? -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Lewis | Senior Network Engineer | Atlantic.net | ________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key__________ From michael.dillon at bt.com Fri Mar 28 07:20:21 2008 From: michael.dillon at bt.com (michael.dillon at bt.com) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:20:21 -0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Team Cymru In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > If anyone has not been to the Team Cymru website recently, > have a look > > at and particularly, their > Services page. > > Are you comparing their Bogon Reference to ARIN's > unallocated/returned prefixes? No, not really. Just pointing out that Team Cymru exist and continue to provide services related to IP addresses that IANA and the RIRs do not provide, even though they could. There seems to be tacit agreement that because Team Cymru does a good job and is trusted, the RIRs don't try to usurp their work. They've changed domains, revamped their website, added a nice graphical dashboard, etc. Well worth an explore to see if there are any services there that your company can make use of. --Michael Dillon From jcurran at istaff.org Fri Mar 28 08:52:45 2008 From: jcurran at istaff.org (John Curran) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:52:45 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Team Cymru In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: At 11:20 AM +0000 3/28/08, wrote: >Just pointing out that Team Cymru exist and continue to provide >services related to IP addresses that IANA and the RIRs do not >provide, even though they could. There seems to be tacit agreement >that because Team Cymru does a good job and is trusted, the RIRs >don't try to usurp their work. Personal opinion only. I don't believe that there's any "tacit agreement" between ARIN and Team Cymru, but the community may (wisely) understand that any organization that tries to be everything will likely not excel at anything. If the community were to direct ARIN to produce similar services, I expect ARIN would endeavor do so, but thankfully Team Cymru's already doing an awesome job, and there seems to be plenty for ARIN to do in delivering great IP registration services... As much as the ARIN often asks "what additional services does the community need?", it's equally important to always ask: "And _must_ these services be offered by ARIN?" (unless we're willing to face an inevitable case of mission creep). /John From paul at vix.com Fri Mar 28 11:40:59 2008 From: paul at vix.com (Paul Vixie) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:40:59 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Team Cymru In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:20:21 GMT." References:

Message-ID: <61594.1206718859@sa.vix.com> > ... Just pointing out that Team Cymru exist and continue to provide services > related to IP addresses that IANA and the RIRs do not provide, even though > they could. can you provide one or more specific examples, and show in at least one case how ARIN might be able to do a better job? to the best of my knowledge, cymru is staffed by "the" experts in their field, and their services are free. but if there's some value ARIN can add, then, that ought to be investigated. > ... There seems to be tacit agreement that because Team Cymru does a good > job and is trusted, the RIRs don't try to usurp their work. nope, nothing like that. ARIN thinks it ain't broke, so, ARIN doesn't fix it. > They've changed domains, revamped their website, added a nice graphical > dashboard, etc. Well worth an explore to see if there are any services there > that your company can make use of. there's a potentially disturbing implication here, which is that the services you think the RIR's could provide, that you think cymru is providing now, are not free from cymru. if you can substantiate that, then there may in fact be work for ARIN here, in that if there's something ARIN can do as a simple public benefit, that ARIN's members would otherwise have to pay commercial rates for, then the "value add" i mentioned earlier above would be "don't have to pay", and if so, then that's *definitely* something that ought to be investigated. if on the other hand it's not "simple" then "don't have to pay" would be well balanced and exceeded by "it's really quite difficult to provide that service." (this follows from my personal belief that monety ought to follow uniqueness, i.e., that a supplier's cashflow and equity growth should come from being the only, or the best, supplier of a particular service, and not from inertia or from unnecessary exclusivity on public goods or public databases. this is a personal position, not an ARIN BoT position, nor an ARIN organizational principle.) From michael.dillon at bt.com Fri Mar 28 11:54:27 2008 From: michael.dillon at bt.com (michael.dillon at bt.com) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:54:27 -0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Team Cymru In-Reply-To: <61594.1206718859@sa.vix.com> References:

<61594.1206718859@sa.vix.com> Message-ID: > > ... There seems to be tacit agreement that because Team > Cymru does a > > good job and is trusted, the RIRs don't try to usurp their work. > > nope, nothing like that. ARIN thinks it ain't broke, so, > ARIN doesn't fix it. That is exactly what I meant when I said that there is a tacit agreement. Sorry for not writing it in plain English. > there's a potentially disturbing implication here, which is > that the services you think the RIR's could provide, that you > think cymru is providing now, are not free from cymru. I've no idea whether or not this is the case. But it is clear that both ARIN and Team Cymru provide services that report various attributes of IP address ranges. Some of the attributes of IP address ranges can only be provided authoritatively by ARIN (such as who was allocated/assigned the addresses) and therefore the two organizations really should cooperate explicitly, not tacitly. But even if ARIN and Team Cymru never cooperate explicitly, they still exist, still provide services, and still have many happy users of those services. Therefore, I thought that it was a good idea to mention to ARIN members that Team Cymru is out there. > (this follows from my personal belief that monety ought to > follow uniqueness, i.e., that a supplier's cashflow and > equity growth should come from being the only, or the best, > supplier of a particular service, and not from inertia or > from unnecessary exclusivity on public goods or public > databases. this is a personal position, not an ARIN BoT > position, nor an ARIN organizational > principle.) Seems to be a reasonable position. Seeing as how you are on the ARIN BoT, maybe you could ask staff to keep track of Team Cymru, and any other similar organizations, and to work together with them where it makes sense or compete with them where that makes sense. Really, all I was trying to do was raise awareness because people in the ISP business often seem to have blinders on with respect to change in the world in which they operate. --Michael Dillon From paul at vix.com Fri Mar 28 12:29:16 2008 From: paul at vix.com (Paul Vixie) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:29:16 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Team Cymru In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:54:27 GMT." References:

<61594.1206718859@sa.vix.com> Message-ID: <63559.1206721756@sa.vix.com> > > there's a potentially disturbing implication here, which is > > that the services you think the RIR's could provide, that you > > think cymru is providing now, are not free from cymru. > > I've no idea whether or not this is the case. ah. ok. > But it is clear that both ARIN and Team Cymru provide services that report > various attributes of IP address ranges. Some of the attributes of IP > address ranges can only be provided authoritatively by ARIN (such as who was > allocated/assigned the addresses) and therefore the two organizations really > should cooperate explicitly, not tacitly. noting that ARIN cannot enter into such relationships exclusively, i agree. (by exclusive, i mean, if others besides cymru also wanted to cooperate with ARIN in this way, then ARIN would do so, on nondiscriminatory terms.) if you want to expand on the kind of cooperation you think would be beneficial here, i am all ears. > > (... my personal belief that monety ought to follow uniqueness, i.e., that > > a supplier's cashflow and equity growth should come from being the only, > > or the best, supplier of a particular service, and not from inertia or > > from unnecessary exclusivity on public goods or public databases. this is > > a personal position, not an ARIN BoT position, nor an ARIN organizational > > principle.) > > Seems to be a reasonable position. Seeing as how you are on the ARIN BoT, > maybe you could ask staff to keep track of Team Cymru, and any other similar > organizations, and to work together with them where it makes sense or > compete with them where that makes sense. that would be out of scope for the BoT, unless there were specific community or membership requests for information or action that were going unanswered. in other words, to the extent that the BoT is in charge of anything, the above words ("work with ... or compete ... where it makes sense") would be somewhat of a "standing order". > Really, all I was trying to do was raise awareness because people in the ISP > business often seem to have blinders on with respect to change in the world > in which they operate. as you can tell from my reply, i'm very interested in this general area. as a steward of public resources, ARIN walks a fine line between "do everything that has to be done" and "do everything that nobody else can do" and "do everything that nobody else is doing". but never "do everything that can be done". as an example of something the RIRs could provide that nobody else could provide, consider an IODEF forwarding service, where cooperating network owners gave their RIR(s) a private entrance to a ticket system, and other cooperating network owners had a private entrance to their RIR(s)' forwarding system, so that complaints about network abuse could flow directly from qualified cooperating network owners to other qualified cooperating network owners. noone but the RIRs could do this at the moment, though many attempts have failed and many others are now failing, simply because only the RIRs know for sure who should be allowed to speak for, and receive IODEF reports for, a given network. (RPKI could change that, and so, should also be explored.) if you have examples of ways ARIN could cooperate with entities like cymru, that leverage ARIN's unique capabilities to the advantage of the community, i am as i said "all ears". From Ed.Lewis at neustar.biz Fri Mar 28 12:32:26 2008 From: Ed.Lewis at neustar.biz (Edward Lewis) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 12:32:26 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Team Cymru In-Reply-To: <61594.1206718859@sa.vix.com> References:

<61594.1206718859@sa.vix.com> Message-ID: At 15:40 +0000 3/28/08, Paul Vixie wrote: >> ... Just pointing out that Team Cymru exist and continue to provide services >> related to IP addresses that IANA and the RIRs do not provide, even though >> they could. > >can you provide one or more specific examples, and show in at least one case >how ARIN might be able to do a better job? to the best of my knowledge, cymru >is staffed by "the" experts in their field, and their services are free. but >if there's some value ARIN can add, then, that ought to be investigated. IMHO, this entire conversation is purely hypothetical, but to answer anyway and in the spirit of hypothetical, where an organization like ARIN has expertise is in the open discussion space. Meaning that ARIN could bring to the table a position that is more openly representative of a wider base of constituents. That's not to say that ARIN could out muscle Team Cymru on it's turf. That *is* to say that if there was ever information released that consisted of a judgement (not straight calculation) of the raw data, it's better to come from an organization which expends energy to disclose the judgement process. >nope, nothing like that. ARIN thinks it ain't broke, so, ARIN doesn't fix it. ARIN functions as a representative of the operational community/industry - or a subset of such. ARIN isn't out to change the world, it fills the voids that industry needs to have filled. > >> They've changed domains, revamped their website, added a nice graphical >> dashboard, etc. Well worth an explore to see if there are any services there >> that your company can make use of. > >there's a potentially disturbing implication here, which is that the services >you think the RIR's could provide, that you think cymru is providing now, are >not free from cymru. if you can substantiate that, then there may in fact be >work for ARIN here, in that if there's something ARIN can do as a >simple public >benefit, that ARIN's members would otherwise have to pay commercial rates for, >then the "value add" i mentioned earlier above would be "don't have to pay", >and if so, then that's *definitely* something that ought to be investigated. >if on the other hand it's not "simple" then "don't have to pay" would be well >balanced and exceeded by "it's really quite difficult to provide >that service." I kept the old quote because I didn't interpret it the same way as what Paul added. The old quote didn't imply (to me) that Team Cmyru was "going pro" and thus leaving a void for ARIN. But why is the implication "disturbing?" >(this follows from my personal belief that money ought to follow uniqueness, >i.e., that a supplier's cashflow and equity growth should come from being the >only, or the best, supplier of a particular service, and not from inertia or >from unnecessary exclusivity on public goods or public databases. this is a >personal position, not an ARIN BoT position, nor an ARIN organizational >principle.) Well, I'm going to argue with a "personal belief" knowing that one should not get into a flame war over it. My view, forged a long time ago, is that money follows the mundane. (I didn't say "ought to".) More money is spent on low end, commodity deliveries than on turn key, customized products and services. For the engineer I was talking with about this years ago, who demanded to be paid more for his crafted work, my advice was "I'd rather pay more for someone that consistently delivered what I wanted" than to someone that also derived pleasure from the work. If Team Cymru enjoys "this" role, isn't that enough of a reward? ;) To quote James McMurtry "If you liked what you're doin', it wouldn't be work." -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Never confuse activity with progress. Activity pays more. From tedm at ipinc.net Fri Mar 28 15:58:20 2008 From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 12:58:20 -0700 Subject: [arin-discuss] Team Cymru In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003701c8910e$128561c0$6fce4b41@tedsdesk> > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Edward Lewis > Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 9:32 AM > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > Cc: ed.lewis at neustar.biz > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Team Cymru > > > Well, I'm going to argue with a "personal belief" knowing that one > should not get into a flame war over it. My view, forged a long time > ago, is that money follows the mundane. (I didn't say "ought to".) > More money is spent on low end, commodity deliveries than on turn > key, customized products and services. Meaningless. More money is spent but the margins are a lot thinner, so for quite a number of markets, a manufacturer will make the same money however they approach the market. The difference is that while ALL manufacturers have the ability to play in the mundane market (since no skill is required) not all have the ability to compete in the customized products markets, since skill is required to make those products. That's why there more people hawking crap to the masses. It's not because they make more money doing it. It's because they can't do anything else. At the end of the day, all that matters is how much money you take home to your bank account. You can do this by either selling a few good items at high margins, or a lot of crappy sales at low margins, it's your choice. But don't kid yourself by telling yourself if your in the crappy sales business that while you may hate your job that at least you make up for that by making a lot more money than everyone else. And, as for the customer side of things - if you give people the money they will go for the better quality stuff every time. Nobody really -wants- to buy the el-cheapo products, they just do it because having a cheap product is better than having nothing. Walk up to any guy on the street waxing eloquent about how great his new Toyota Corolla is, and hand him a title to a new Lexus and tell him all he has to do to get it is give you the title of his Corolla - and you will own a Corolla so fast it will make your head spin. > For the engineer I was > talking with about this years ago, who demanded to be paid more for > his crafted work, my advice was "I'd rather pay more for someone that > consistently delivered what I wanted" than to someone that also > derived pleasure from the work. > > If Team Cymru enjoys "this" role, isn't that enough of a reward? ;) > To quote James McMurtry "If you liked what you're doin', it wouldn't > be work." I'm glad this is all purely hypothetical because your contradicting yourself there. Your sentence meaning is: You would rather pay more to a) someone who consistently delivered b) someone who didn't enjoy their work than to someone who: a) someone who consistently delivered b) someone who did enjoy their work which contradicts your following statement: "If Team Cymru enjoys "this" role, isn't that enough of a reward" I suspect that your grammer, spelling, and logic teachers in school were people who: a) didn't consistently deliver b) didn't enjoy their work. It's a shame that they imbued you with such a dislike of people who consistently make great products and enjoy doing so. You don't sound like you lead a very happy life. Ted From Ed.Lewis at neustar.biz Fri Mar 28 16:11:50 2008 From: Ed.Lewis at neustar.biz (Edward Lewis) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:11:50 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Team Cymru In-Reply-To: <003701c8910e$128561c0$6fce4b41@tedsdesk> References: <003701c8910e$128561c0$6fce4b41@tedsdesk> Message-ID: At 12:58 -0700 3/28/08, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >I suspect that your grammer, spelling, and logic teachers s/grammer/grammar/ -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar Never confuse activity with progress. Activity pays more. From tedm at ipinc.net Fri Mar 28 16:54:43 2008 From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:54:43 -0700 Subject: [arin-discuss] Team Cymru In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003f01c89115$f2e08400$6fce4b41@tedsdesk> s/Team Cmyru/Team Cymru/ Apparently, neither of our spelling teachers consistently delivered. ;-) Ted > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Edward Lewis > Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 1:12 PM > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > Cc: 'Edward Lewis' > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Team Cymru > > > At 12:58 -0700 3/28/08, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > >I suspect that your grammer, spelling, and logic teachers > > s/grammer/grammar/ > > -- > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > -=-=-=-=-=-=- > Edward Lewis > +1-571-434-5468 > NeuStar > > Never confuse activity with progress. Activity pays more. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at > info at arin.net if you experience any issues. > From jsantana at rgts.com Fri Mar 28 17:50:44 2008 From: jsantana at rgts.com (John Santana) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:50:44 -0400 Subject: [arin-discuss] Team Cymru In-Reply-To: <003f01c89115$f2e08400$6fce4b41@tedsdesk> References: <003f01c89115$f2e08400$6fce4b41@tedsdesk> Message-ID: ...its Welsh. _________________________________________________ John F. Santana Network Operations Center Rockefeller Group Technology Solutions 1221 Avenue of the Americas New York, NY 10020 Phone: 1 (212) 282-2241 NOC Direct Line: 1 (212) 282-2222 Cell: 1(917)836-2364 -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Ted Mittelstaedt Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 4:55 PM To: 'Edward Lewis'; arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Team Cymru s/Team Cmyru/Team Cymru/ Apparently, neither of our spelling teachers consistently delivered. ;-) Ted > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Edward Lewis > Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 1:12 PM > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > Cc: 'Edward Lewis' > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Team Cymru > > > At 12:58 -0700 3/28/08, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > >I suspect that your grammer, spelling, and logic teachers > > s/grammer/grammar/ > > -- > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > -=-=-=-=-=-=- > Edward Lewis > +1-571-434-5468 > NeuStar > > Never confuse activity with progress. Activity pays more. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if > you experience any issues. > _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.