From dean at av8.com Tue Jan 1 13:36:09 2008 From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 13:36:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: <4775A7EE.1010504@impulse.net> Message-ID: [ARIN agrees that discussion to recall Board members, to conduct investigations of ARIN expenditures, and to stop certain ARIN expenditures does not violate the ARIN AUP.] On Fri, 28 Dec 2007, Jay Hennigan wrote: > Dean Anderson wrote: > > On Fri, 28 Dec 2007, Jay Hennigan wrote: > > > >> Dean Anderson wrote: > >> > >> [Bobbitt...] > > > > ???? What does "Bobbitt" mean? > > To snip off. Google "Lorena Bobbitt". > > >> Facts? ITYM allegations in a seven-year-old civil suit perhaps? > > > > A TRO is a fact. A TRO is citable in subsequent litigation. A previous > > TRO helps establish that similar facts are sufficient to establish > > similar claims. > > Your citation wasn't a TRO, but a pleading in support of one. You have your facts wrong. I cited two things: First, I cited a TRO in a case with 7 claims: "Exactis v. MAPS, which cited charges of Tortious Interference with Contract, Tortious Interference with Prospective Business Relations, violation of the Colorado Consumer Protection Act, Intentional and Negligent Misrepresentation and Extortion, violation of the Colorado Communications Privacy Act, violation of the Colorado Organized Crime Control Act, violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act, violation of the Colorado Antitrust act. A Temporary Restraining Order (TRO) was obtained. Vixie and MAPS attempts to have the case dismissed failed, and MAPS settled. MAPS no longer blocks Exactis." Second, I also cited a memoranda in support of the TRO: "Exactis v. MAPS in the "Motion and Memorandum in Support of Temporary Restraining Order and Preliminary Injunction" at http://www.dotcomeon.com/exactis1.html" > Note also that this is ancient history, and note that the "T" in TRO > stands for "Temporary". You are merely repeating a canard with no proof that it is ancient history or somehow irrelevant. I already cited reasons why it is relevant. The TRO is relevant for future civil or criminal court cases because the statute of limitations hasn't expired, and the TRO remains citable in other court cases as evidence that a certain set of facts can justify a certain set of claims. The activities surrounding the suit and particularly the TRO reflect negatively on the character of Mr. Vixie. > > I cite the case because the activities brought to light in the case have > > bearing on the character of the persons involved. > > Could you be more specific? On second thought, don't. If you have > reason to feel that a board member should be removed, instead of > trolling here, follow the procedures in the bylaws. I am indeed following the bylaws. An investigation of misconduct needs to be completed before we can reasonably ask members to vote on removal for cause; Evidence and cause for removal needs to be discussed with the membership. Your demand to "take it off list" is a transparent effort to prevent the membership from being informed of misconduct and to prevent the membership from consequently being inclined to vote for the removal of members of the Board of Directors. > > It generally wasn't known that Vixie and others were on the Board of > > directors of a spammer (a commercial bulk emailer) that was > > competing with Exactis in 2000. It also wasn't generally known in > > 2000 that MAPS employees were employeed assisting spammers (e.g. > > Scott Richter, Opt-in-real-big) with list-washing (discovered 2003). > > The full facts show less "good guy". > > The above sounds like the valueless speculation you dismiss earlier. > Evidence? Board of Directors of Whitehat.com/American Computer Group: http://web.archive.org/web/20010330222321/www.whitehat.com/board.cfm "According to a new entry in the Spamhaus Rokso record for Scott Richter, three "former spamfighters" had been discover on Richter's payroll: former MAPS employees Kelly Molloy (Thompson) and Pete Popovich, as well as Ohio anti-spammer Karen Hoffmann. The Rokso entry ROK2888, stated that the three were employed by Richter to handle network abuse complaints and to perform "listwashing"---the task of removing angry spam recipients from OptInRealBig.com's mailing lists. [...] which represented 'a depressing reversal of ethics' "Spam Kings" pg 254, by Brian McWilliams, Orielly (2003) > > Are you asserting Exactis' attorney committed some violation of > > professional conduct? > > Not at all, merely that he was employed specifically to argue against > MAPS and Vixie, and not an impartial observer. Good. Then we can agree that the statements in the pleadings and memoranda I cited are true. --Dean -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 From dean at av8.com Tue Jan 1 14:40:50 2008 From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 14:40:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [ARIN agrees that discussion to recall Board members, to conduct investigations of ARIN expenditures, and to stop certain ARIN expenditures does not violate the ARIN AUP.] On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 michael.dillon at bt.com wrote: > > 2. Truth is an absolute defense to claims of libel. > > Not here it isn't! You have to go to a court of law in > order to use the "truth" defense. You have to go to court to hold someone accountable for libel. > On this list, if you constantly annoy us then we don't have to pay > attention to you any more or read any of your messages. On this list, ARIN is subject to US Law governing corporations, and other US laws; There are laws governing what corporations can do, and corporations cannot prevent members from investigating the activities of a membership corporation. Of course, as a member, you are free to read or not read anything you wish. You are also free to vote anyway you wish. > > Question: Why is ARIN paying to have the rest of these people learn > > to configure BGP and configure spam filters, and other technical > > network operation tasks? This seems to be recoverable. > > Question: If you haven't even got the faintest clue of what NANOG is > and what kind of things are discussed at NANOG, then why are you > wasting our time with this nonsense? Well, I have recently analyzed attendence at NANOG over the last 10+ years. I have read the NANOG list for over 10 years, and participated at times. I have worked in this industry for 20 years. I have some idea of what NANOG does and what NANOG doesn't do. But the best evidence is objective: Let's see what NANOG says about itself: >From NANOG's charter: "The purpose of NANOG is to provide forums in the North American region for education and the sharing of knowledge for the Internet operations community. NANOG is a small venue in which technical matters pertaining to network operations and network technology deployment in Internet providers may be discussed among experts. " In fact, examining the attendence records of NANOG I found that: 2 in 3 of the attendees dropped (never came back) after only 1 meeting 4 in 5 dropped after only 2 meetings 7 in 8 dropped after only 3 meetings 9 in 10 dropped after only 4 meetings NANOG 41 was the first meeting attended by 145 attendees (33% of total). Statistically, 100 or so will never return. NANOG 41 was attended by 79 people (18%) who had attended more than 10 meetings. There are only 184 people in the world who have attended more than 10 meetings. Indeed, the facts I found indicate that NANOG is essentially a small club; if you are pals with about 184 or so core members (those who have attended more than 10 meetings), you come back repeatedly. Those who aren't, never come back. Contrast the NANOG charter with the jobs of these ARIN employees: 13|Ray Plzak Executive President & CEO 17|Richard Jimmerson Executive Chief Information Officer 2|Nate Davis Executive Chief Operations Officer 1|Therese Colosi Human Resources Executive Assistant 1|Ray Stark Engineering Windows System Administrator 1|Abram Thielke Engineering Software Engineer 3|Tim Christensen Engineering System Architect 1|Matt Rowley Engineering Unix Systems Administrator 2|Ming Yan Engineering Database Administrator 7|Michael O'Neill Engineering Network Administrator 2|Cathy Murphy Engineering Principal Software Engineer 1|Darren Kara Engineering Database Administrator 6|Matt Ryanczak Engineering Systems Operations Manager 20|Leslie Nobile Registration Services Director of Registration Services 4|David Huberman Registration Services Technical Specialist 1|Jon Worley Registration Services Senior Resource Analyst 4|Cathy Clements Registration Services Principal Resource Analyst 4|Jason Byrne Member Services Membership Operations Manager 6|Susan Hamlin Member Services Director of Member Services 4|Einar Bohlin Member Services Policy Analyst 2|Erin Centanni Member Services Meeting Planner 2|Erika Goedrich Member Services Membership Coordinator What do all these people have to do with network operations or subjects of NANOG? Only one is a network administrator. 22 ARIN employees (almost half the company!) have been attending NANOG. Even the HR Executive Assistant has attended NANOG? This is improper expenditure of ARIN funds. 6 of 7 ARIN Board members are participant beneficiaries of NANOG, and so have a conflict of interest. The 7th (Scott Bradner) is a 3-time speaker and has not disclosed whether he was compensated for the speakerships. In contrast, ARIN counts about 2900 members, mostly corporations, which aren't represented by NANOG. Yet 3 of the 184 NANOG core members work for ARIN. 5 of the ARIN board members are in that 184 people. The advisory council is similarly over-represented by frequent NANOG particants. I think it is curious that ARIN should be so infiltrated by one small group. But it is improper for ARIN to be making unusual financial transfers to NANOG with undisclosed conflicts of interest. A significant part of NANOG's funding comes from ARIN. > > I have a message from a frequent NANOG attendee (13 meetings) > > who says that a recent IP Address Allocation was done in a > > few hours, start to finish. This seems quite odd, and > > contrary to what most people experience. Furthermore, it > > seems impossible to fully and properly evaluate an IP Address > > Block request in so short a time. > > I have also had at least one IP address allocationthat was done > in a few hours but I have had others, with the same company, > that dragged on for months. The one time that we got it done > in a few hours was also the time that we submitted a full set > of data to backup the request including some charts and graphs > and a full dump of our reassignment data down to the /32 level. > Also, by that time we had established a reasonable reputation > with ARIN over the course of 4 or 5 allocation requests. Good to know. I note also that you have attended 5 NANOG meetings, and remain a frequent participant in NANOG. > P.S. by now everyone knows where to contact you if they wish to > join in your legal actions against the ARIN board. Please do > not post anything further to the ARIN mailing lists about this. If you mean action under the the bylaws to recall a board member, this is the proper forum to discuss that subject. The bylaws do not permit ARIN to place such restrictions. In anycase, you do not speak for ARIN. -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 From paul at vix.com Tue Jan 1 15:26:20 2008 From: paul at vix.com (Paul Vixie) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:26:20 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 01 Jan 2008 14:40:50 EST." References: Message-ID: <52821.1199219180@sa.vix.com> if the facts alleged by filings in a lawsuit are to be given the same weight as truth, then rather than look at 8 year old TRO filings, may i suggest a more recent and pointed reference, that being the verisign lawsuit against icann, in which i was a named co-conspirator. just because these lawsuits never went to trial doesn't mean that everything contained in the filings can't be used as character evidence here. furthermore, if the employment of former MAPS employees after leaving MAPS ought to reflect on the founders of MAPS somehow, then shouldn't you also do an exhaustive search to find out where every one of them wound up? (and also for every other company founded by any ARIN board member?) (or any company where an ARIN board member was an executive?) i find the quality of the investigations so far deplorably low. From iis-arin at impulse.net Tue Jan 1 20:38:56 2008 From: iis-arin at impulse.net (Jay Hennigan) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:38:56 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <477AEB30.90609@impulse.net> Dean Anderson wrote: >>From NANOG's charter: > > "The purpose of NANOG is to provide forums in the North American > region for education and the sharing of knowledge for the Internet operations > community. > > NANOG is a small venue in which technical matters pertaining to network > operations and network technology deployment in Internet providers may > be discussed among experts. " > > In fact, examining the attendence records of NANOG I found that: [irrelevant statistics snipped] > What do all these people have to do with network operations or > subjects of NANOG? Only one is a network administrator. > > 22 ARIN employees (almost half the company!) have been attending NANOG. > Even the HR Executive Assistant has attended NANOG? This is improper > expenditure of ARIN funds. Let's also look at ARIN's defined mission: "Provides services related to the technical coordination and management of Internet number resources in its respective service region." I, for one, would think that the technical coordination and management of Internet number resources goes hand-in-hand with technical matters pertaining to network operations and network technology deployment as described in the NANOG charter. Without network operations and network technology development, there is no need for numbering resources. Without orderly coordination of numbering resources, network operations and network technology development are impossible. The geographic regions defined by ARIN and NANOG are similar. As an ARIN member, I feel that ARIN staff should indeed be very involved with NANOG. For them not to be would be dereliction of their duty. Similarly, VON seems relevant considering the present and future impact of VoIP on the numberspace as well as the multi-homing needs for reliability of voice services. ARIN is forward-thinking by its outreach to groups developing technologies that will impact numbering resources. In the days of Gopher and Archie, should ARIN have been thinking, "Outreach to the people doing that HTTP stuff is a waste of our time, it's just an application that generates a fancy table of contents"? Rather than "Status of Investigations" perhaps the subject should be changed to "Rants about ARIN's association with entities that Dean Anderson doesn't like." I really don't see any investigations here. What I see are some statistics about meeting attendance, one person's opinion regarding said attendance, links to readily-available but ancient legal pleadings, and a smear campaign. So far, on the list of entities Dean Anderson doesn't like: * Paul Vixie (and/or MAPS) * NANOG * VON Any others? -- Jay Hennigan - CCIE #7880 - Network Engineering - jay at impulse.net Impulse Internet Service - http://www.impulse.net/ Your local telephone and internet company - 805 884-6323 - WB6RDV From iis-arin at impulse.net Tue Jan 1 21:16:55 2008 From: iis-arin at impulse.net (Jay Hennigan) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:16:55 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations Message-ID: <477AF417.3020100@impulse.net> Dean Anderson wrote: > [ARIN agrees that discussion to recall Board members, to conduct > investigations of ARIN expenditures, and to stop certain ARIN > expenditures does not violate the ARIN AUP.] Does it? Where? > I am indeed following the bylaws. An investigation of misconduct needs > to be completed before we can reasonably ask members to vote on removal > for cause; Evidence and cause for removal needs to be discussed with the > membership. Your demand to "take it off list" is a transparent effort > to prevent the membership from being informed of misconduct and to > prevent the membership from consequently being inclined to vote for the > removal of members of the Board of Directors. Then specifically state the misconduct with regard to the performance of duties as an ARIN trustee. "He ran a stop sign in 2001, here's a copy of the traffic ticket", has nothing whatsoever to do with his present performance with regard to ARIN or any misconduct with regards to his acts as a Board member. "I caught him stealing from ARIN as a trustee" would be relevant. "Some lawyer said that his company picked on his client's company and convinced a judge to make them stop temporarily, and this was a long time ago" wouldn't. Get it? > "According to a new entry in the Spamhaus Rokso record for Scott > Richter, three "former spamfighters" had been discover on Richter's > payroll: former MAPS employees Kelly Molloy (Thompson) and Pete > Popovich, as well as Ohio anti-spammer Karen Hoffmann. The Rokso entry > ROK2888, stated that the three were employed by Richter to handle > network abuse complaints and to perform "listwashing"---the task of > removing angry spam recipients from OptInRealBig.com's mailing lists. > [...] which represented 'a depressing reversal of ethics' > "Spam Kings" pg 254, by Brian McWilliams, Orielly (2003) That's even more far-fetched. "According to Scott Richter (consider the source), three people who used to be his co-workers also ran stop signs five or six years ago." No evidence that he knew of this activity, and even if true, no link to his performance as an ARIN trustee. These "facts" have been available for quite some time, and the time for you to bring them up would have been while you were campaigning for the board seat against him. Even if true, none of this is relevant to his performance on the ARIN board. If you're proposing removal for cause, state a *relevant* cause. Don't give us a history lesson. Many of us were active in the spam wars at the time, most of us know how to use a search engine, and there are probably O'Reilly books on most of our shelves. Where's the beef? -- Jay Hennigan - CCIE #7880 - Network Engineering - jay at impulse.net Impulse Internet Service - http://www.impulse.net/ Your local telephone and internet company - 805 884-6323 - WB6RDV From eddy+arin+spam at noc.everquick.net Tue Jan 1 21:28:48 2008 From: eddy+arin+spam at noc.everquick.net (Edward B. DREGER) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 02:28:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations Message-ID: JH> Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:38:56 -0800 JH> From: Jay Hennigan JH> The geographic regions defined by ARIN and NANOG are similar. American Registry Internet... North American Network Ops... genius! JH> As an ARIN member, I feel that ARIN staff should indeed be very JH> involved with NANOG. For them not to be would be dereliction of JH> their duty. Indeed. As an ARIN member, I'd be displeased if ARIN were to dish out ivory-tower policies without even attempting to understand the operational issues and impact. IMHE (E = experience), dealing with ARIN is easier and more logical now than at the turn of the century. I still disagree with a few things, but we'll save that for another discussion. Perhaps the NANOG-ARIN interaction (influx of NANOG regulars, joint meetings, et cetera) has made ARIN more aware/sensitive of, and responsive to operational concerns. JH> So far, on the list of entities Dean Anderson doesn't like: JH> * Paul Vixie (and/or MAPS) JH> * NANOG JH> * VON JH> JH> Any others? In the name of trying to keep things on-topic, let's not start enumerating personal vendettas. I'm sure a Google search or three will give good insight; those interested can "figure it out" themselves. Perhaps Dean would like to run for an ARIN BoT or AC position. Such an election might indicate a manifest for his proposals, and would also give him more direct influence. Eddy -- Everquick Internet - http://www.everquick.net/ A division of Brotsman & Dreger, Inc. - http://www.brotsman.com/ Bandwidth, consulting, e-commerce, hosting, and network building Phone: +1 785 865 5885 Lawrence and [inter]national Phone: +1 316 794 8922 Wichita ________________________________________________________________________ DO NOT send mail to the following addresses: davidc at brics.com -*- jfconmaapaq at intc.net -*- sam at everquick.net Sending mail to spambait addresses is a great way to get blocked. Ditto for broken OOO autoresponders and foolish AV software backscatter. From iis-arin at impulse.net Wed Jan 2 14:54:16 2008 From: iis-arin at impulse.net (Jay Hennigan) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:54:16 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <477BEBE8.7060009@impulse.net> Dean Anderson wrote: > On Fri, 28 Dec 2007, Jay Hennigan wrote: > >> Dean Anderson wrote: >>> Are you asserting Exactis' attorney committed some violation of >>> professional conduct? >> Not at all, merely that he was employed specifically to argue against >> MAPS and Vixie, and not an impartial observer. > > Good. Then we can agree that the statements in the pleadings and > memoranda I cited are true. Not at all, not even close. We can speculate that Exactis made certain assertions to its attorney, and the attorney believed at the time that the assertions were true. The possibility that the attorney indeed committed some violation of professional conduct can't be ruled out. For us to believe that the statements are true based on the above is ludicrous. For the attorney to avoid professional misconduct, he would have to believe that they were true at the time, regardless of whether they were in fact true. -- Jay Hennigan - CCIE #7880 - Network Engineering - jay at impulse.net Impulse Internet Service - http://www.impulse.net/ Your local telephone and internet company - 805 884-6323 - WB6RDV From dean at av8.com Wed Jan 2 21:23:06 2008 From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 21:23:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: <477AF417.3020100@impulse.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jan 2008, Jay Hennigan wrote: > Dean Anderson wrote: > > [ARIN agrees that discussion to recall Board members, to conduct > > investigations of ARIN expenditures, and to stop certain ARIN > > expenditures does not violate the ARIN AUP.] > > Does it? Where? A letter from ARIN. > > I am indeed following the bylaws. An investigation of misconduct needs > > to be completed before we can reasonably ask members to vote on removal > > for cause; Evidence and cause for removal needs to be discussed with the > > membership. Your demand to "take it off list" is a transparent effort > > to prevent the membership from being informed of misconduct and to > > prevent the membership from consequently being inclined to vote for the > > removal of members of the Board of Directors. > > Then specifically state the misconduct with regard to the performance of > duties as an ARIN trustee. "He ran a stop sign in 2001, here's a copy > of the traffic ticket", has nothing whatsoever to do with his present > performance with regard to ARIN or any misconduct with regards to his > acts as a Board member. > > "I caught him stealing from ARIN as a trustee" would be relevant. "Some > lawyer said that his company picked on his client's company and > convinced a judge to make them stop temporarily, and this was a long > time ago" wouldn't. Get it? We aren't talking traffic tickets. > > "According to a new entry in the Spamhaus Rokso record for Scott > > Richter, three "former spamfighters" had been discover on Richter's > > payroll: former MAPS employees Kelly Molloy (Thompson) and Pete > > Popovich, as well as Ohio anti-spammer Karen Hoffmann. The Rokso entry > > ROK2888, stated that the three were employed by Richter to handle > > network abuse complaints and to perform "listwashing"---the task of > > removing angry spam recipients from OptInRealBig.com's mailing lists. > > [...] which represented 'a depressing reversal of ethics' > > "Spam Kings" pg 254, by Brian McWilliams, Orielly (2003) > > That's even more far-fetched. "According to Scott Richter (consider the > source), Scott Richter isn't the source of this information. Perhaps you could consider not fabricating quotes with fictitious sources. I notice that you cut out the fact of Mr. Vixie being on the board of a spammer while directing MAPS. Doesn't his particpation in spamming seem to be a conflict of interest, a "depressing reversal of ethics"? > These "facts" have been available for quite some time, and the time for > you to bring them up would have been while you were campaigning for the > board seat against him. Even if true, none of this is relevant to his > performance on the ARIN board. This issue is not cited a relevant to _performance_; It's cited as being relevant to character. Board member performance has to do with conflict of interest in wasting roughly $300,000+ of ARIN money on NANOG, sending 22 employees to NANOG, including the HR Exec Assistant, Software Engineers, Database Admins, Windows System Admins, etc. The total comes to an improper income of some $95,000 for NANOG, which improperly benefits ARIN Board Members. Since these transfers aren't fair to ARIN, and they involve undisclosed conflict of interest, the transfers are in bad faith. Bad faith invalidates the business judgement rule defense, and enables recovery from the Board Members. [The rough $300,000 estimate is as follows: A $50,000 check + ~$45,000 in fees, + ~135,000 in travel, hotel, etc + ~80 weeks of lost work for 22 employees equals about $300,000 or so. I'm sure ARIN finance and the ARIN auditor can get an exact number, but ARIN hasn't responded so far. We should be able to improve the estimate with a more detailed analysis of the ARIN expenses, even without exact figures.] Board member performance is failing to oversee ARIN management and ensure that there is a marketing plan and marketing metrics which establish and measure the effectiveness of VON and other booths, rather than relying on financially-interested sources such as the VON founder to tell ARIN that he thinks spending money on VON is a good thing for ARIN to do. Board member performance is the failure to ensure that Board Member candidates are properly qualified and of good character. Board member performance is the failure to obtain a legal opinion on the Legacy RSA and the scheme to threaten Legacies with denial of services unless they transferred rights to ARIN through the Legacy RSA. Board member performance is the failure to prevent ARIN employees from becoming too familiar with NANOG participants, and the failure to ensure that business contacts with NANOG are entirely professional and at arm's length, rather than on personal relationships. Neither Board members nor ARIN management have responded to whether they have ensured that ARIN properly trains employees in ethics and that employees are properly trained to avoid decisions clouded by close personal relationships which may present a conflict of interest. These performance issues aren't limited to Board Member Vixie. All 7 board members may have conflicts of interest; 6 of 7 definitely have conflicts of interest; the one board member whose conflict is still uncertain, simply hasn't responded to questions about his compensation for 3 speaking engagements at NANOG. The refusal to respond about his conflict of interest doesn't reflect well, either. And all 7 board members are responsible for failing to oversee management. Hopefully, that clears up your confusion. --Dean -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 From dean at av8.com Wed Jan 2 21:26:47 2008 From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 21:26:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: <52821.1199219180@sa.vix.com> Message-ID: [ARIN agrees that discussion to recall Board members, to conduct investigations of ARIN expenditures, and to stop certain ARIN expenditures does not violate the ARIN AUP.] On Tue, 1 Jan 2008, Paul Vixie wrote: > if the facts alleged by filings in a lawsuit are to be given the same > weight as truth, then rather than look at 8 year old TRO filings, may > i suggest a more recent and pointed reference, that being the verisign > lawsuit against icann, in which i was a named co-conspirator. > just because these lawsuits never went to trial doesn't mean that > everything contained in the filings can't be used as character > evidence here. Thanks for the disclosure. Hopefully more disclosures will also be forthcoming. > furthermore, if the employment of former MAPS employees after leaving > MAPS ought to reflect on the founders of MAPS somehow, then shouldn't > you also do an exhaustive search to find out where every one of them > wound up? (and also for every other company founded by any ARIN board > member?) (or any company where an ARIN board member was an executive?) As the managing director of MAPS, you were responsible for training and indoctrinating these people. It wasn't just one bad apple; It was two. We also learned that you have been on the Board of a spammer for quite some time (Whitehat.com/American Computer Group). Maybe the two bad apples were the result of a bad example set by the boss. That's why this reflects badly on the founders of MAPS. Did you profit from Whitehat.com? > i find the quality of the investigations so far deplorably low. So far, I must agree. It is quite difficult to investigate while stonewalled by Management and the Board. The investigations would be greatly helped if ARIN would respond to the questions that have been asked. Most of the information so far has been gleaned from outside of ARIN. --Dean -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 From dean at av8.com Wed Jan 2 21:39:05 2008 From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 21:39:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: <477BEBE8.7060009@impulse.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jan 2008, Jay Hennigan wrote: > For the attorney to avoid professional misconduct, he would have to > believe that they were true at the time, regardless of whether they > were in fact true. No; An attorney has to do more than merely 'believe the statements true'. I suggest you re-read this, and read the references. ============= I am aware of that. However, lawyers are bound by Model Rules of Professional Conduct. A corporate counsel have to abide by Model Professional Rules of Conduct rule 1.6 and 1.13, which in some cases, cause them to disclose information about their corporate clients. The Model Rules 1.6 and 1.13 can be found at http://www.abanet.org/cpr/mrpc/mrpc_toc.html Corporate counsel is counsel to the corporation, not the employee. The rules of conduct of lawyers were changed in response to Enron and Worldcom, etc. For those of you who are interested, there is a very interesting discussion in "Enron, WorldCom, and the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002. Corporate Governance, Financial Disclosure, Auditing and Other Issues" ALI-ABA course of study materials. I also found interesting Section III, "Recomendations Regarding the Conduct of Lawyers", page 107: "The ABA has long advised that lawyers providing transactional opinions that may be relied on by third parties cannot blindly accept facts posited by a client; they must question and investigate the factual predicate for their advice,[...]" Note 33 on the same page states: "The lawyer who accepts as true the facts which the promoter tells him, when the lawyer should know that a further inquiry would disclose that these facts are untrue, also gives a false opinion." ============= -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 From paul at vix.com Wed Jan 2 22:58:23 2008 From: paul at vix.com (Paul Vixie) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 03:58:23 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Jan 2008 21:26:47 EST." References: Message-ID: <40678.1199332703@sa.vix.com> > > furthermore, if the employment of former MAPS employees after leaving > > MAPS ought to reflect on the founders of MAPS somehow, then shouldn't > > you also do an exhaustive search to find out where every one of them > > wound up? (and also for every other company founded by any ARIN board > > member?) (or any company where an ARIN board member was an executive?) > > As the managing director of MAPS, you were responsible for training and > indoctrinating these people. there were no indoctrinations. my biggest responsibility was setting policy and my second biggest was making payroll happen. while i hold responsibility for everything done by a MAPS employee, i don't have any control (nor would i want it) of what folks do after they leave my employ. perhaps MAPS was not the kind of company you thought it was, or perhaps the world is not the kind of place you thought it was. > It wasn't just one bad apple; It was two. for all i know, scott richter hired peter and kelly with the challenge of "please help me run a more responsible organization". i have no knowledge, but it sounds like you don't either, so maybe you should ask peter and kelly? > Did you profit from Whitehat.com? i'll answer that under separate cover. > > i find the quality of the investigations so far deplorably low. > > So far, I must agree. It is quite difficult to investigate while stonewalled > by Management and the Board. The investigations would be greatly helped if > ARIN would respond to the questions that have been asked. Most of the > information so far has been gleaned from outside of ARIN. while i don't mind answering questions sent to arin-discuss@ if it'll help the membership determine the character of their trustees, i think that if you want an answer from "the board" or "management" you should direct your inquiries to them by certified letter, perhaps even working through your attorney who might decide to work through ARIN's attorney. From paul at vix.com Wed Jan 2 23:03:57 2008 From: paul at vix.com (Paul Vixie) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 04:03:57 +0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Jan 2008 21:23:06 EST." References: Message-ID: <42450.1199333037@sa.vix.com> > I notice that you cut out the fact of Mr. Vixie being on the board of a > spammer while directing MAPS. Doesn't his particpation in spamming seem > to be a conflict of interest, a "depressing reversal of ethics"? i believe the company you're referring to here is "whitehat", which was not a spammer. it was never listed by spamhaus as such, at any rate. i'll tell you how my relationship with whitehat came to be. rodney joffe, whose idea it was, came to me (and john levine and some other notable anti-spammers) and said, "ok guys, you say there's a way to run a responsible mass mailing company, you've written whitepapers on it, are you ready to put your money where your mouth is?" rodney's a very challenging man. what could i say except "youbetcherass i am." i learned a lot about the problems responsible mass mail companies have -- it's HARD to be as responsible as is required! but it's achievable, and whitehat during my tenure there achieved it. i am no longer affiliated with whitehat, having received no compensation, and having earned neither royalties nor stock gains while there. (the company went through a merger and the new board did not have me on it. no biggie.) here's the Spam chapter from Sendmail, Theory and Practice, 2nd edition, Vixie and Avolio, Digital Press, see http://smtap.al.org/ for ordering info. with due respect to my co-author, i wrote this chapter, and i believed it at the time, and i believe it now, and i've lived by it every day since i wrote, in august 1993, the following fateful words: +--- | Return-Path: vixie | Received: by gw.home.vix.com; id AA07212; Mon, 30 Aug 93 12:27:28 -0700 | Message-Id: <9308301927.AA07212 at gw.home.vix.com> | To: WMILHEIM at PSUGV.PSU.EDU (William Milheim) | In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Aug 93 14:08:42. | <930830140842.20200594 at PSUGV.PSU.EDU> | Date: Mon, 30 Aug 93 12:27:28 PDT | From: Paul A Vixie | | William, | | I'm afraid I may not have expressed myself in adequate detail. What you did | was wrong, and it is symptomatic of something hugely evil out on the horizon. | | The Internet is excruciatingly easy to use for mass mailing. Collecting | addresses is free; generating mass mailings from them is close to free. Can | you fathom the effect these metrics will permit once the Internet comes a | little bit closer to the mass market? | | All of the folks who now bombard you with junk mail based on your magazine | subscriptions; who now cause throwaway newspapers to be deposited in your | driveways; who now call you during dinnertime with a voice-activated | computers attempting to solicit your vote or your willingness to test-market | their products -- | | -- all of these people are going to _thrive_ when they | discover the Internet. You, with your mass-mailed survey, are paving the | way for them and helping to _establish_ the answers to the very same | "etiquette questions" you are trying to research. | | I receive about one of these surveys per the average month, sometimes more. | You see your survey as an isolated instance and wonder why I complain; I see | it as one more student sociology experiment by one more dippy professor who | thinks the Internet is a "fertile ground for socio-environmental research." | | In spite of your intentions, which I knew in advance or at least assumed in | advance to be "good", the effect of your survey is to hasten the Internet's | downslide into common-market status. We must establish, here and every day | thereafter, that unsolicited mass mailings are _strongly_prohibited_ by the | Internet code of ethics. | | You can begin this process by posting an apology to the mailing lists you | targetted in your original post. I am still waiting to see this done. I am | not satisfied that you understand the problem or that the steps you have | taken so far mitigate in any substantial way the damage you have caused. | Act now. | | Paul +--- here's the spam chapter in nroff source code. --- .ds ID "$Id: main.me,v 1.3 2001/10/04 18:15:06 vixie Exp $" .ds CT "Unwanted E-mail .so ../ChapterStart.me .lp At the time of the first edition of this book (1992\(en1994), the e-mail world was a simpler place. For one thing, the vast majority of the Internet's population were research and education, or commercial entities who were on the Internet to support research and education users. .pp There were some abuses, in particular a few shady, bottom-feeding companies who converted the Usenet Map Project's data and the ARPAnet ``whois'' database into mailing lists and sold them. Apparently, the Internet's ``operator'' class had built ourselves into an excellent demographic for direct mail \(em we were well paid professionals, purchasing managers in both our jobs and in our homes. And we had conveniently (read: ``naively'') published several electronic directories so that we could locate each other in times of need. These abuses, while irritating and insulting, were only the nose of the camel that was to come in later. .pp Most of the early Internet protocols required little or no authentication. You did not need to prove who you were in order to initiate e-mail transactions simply because in those early days, everyone who had an Internet connection was self-selected or peer-selected to have good manners. If you abused your ARPAnet connection then the government (who was paying for ARPAnet's operation) could disconnect you. .pp Gradually the government stepped away from Internet funding and the commercial communications sector took over. Funding no longer comes from a single source but rather from all sources (and all destinations). Without government money and supervision, the Internet became an organic, evolving, self-governed mesh of different entities, including the old research and education community but also including a fast growing commercial data services sector. .pp Good manners stopped being a prerequisite to Internet connectivity! It is difficult to overstate the significance of that seemingly-small change. Instead of being connected to a community for some bilaterial purpose, it became possible to be connected for a completely unilateral purpose. None of the people, or the technology, were prepared for this shattering change of affairs. Network owners must still cooperate with each other in order that ``connectivity'' exist in a global sense \(em but end users need cooperate with nobody in order to make use of that connectivity. And in a disturbing trend, they increasingly don't. .pp As of this second edition (2000\(en2001), a significant and growing fraction of the e-mail received by the authors is so-called ``spam'' \(em unwanted and unsolicited nonpersonal ``junk'' mail. The senders are sometimes paying their connectivity bills and are often breaking no laws, so they don't (as a class) see any problem with what they do. E-mail is a _IT(lot) cheaper than postal mail, after all, and kills fewer trees. Those of us who don't actually want this junk in our mailboxes, are told to ``just hit delete'', or to register with a global ``opt out list'' which some spammers plan to filter against, or to request removal from each spammer's database when they first locate (and spam) us, or to stop worrying since ``this is a one-time mailing.'' .pp We plan to do none of those things. Universal connectivity is not a right \(em no one can be forced to accept traffic they don't want to receive. We came into the Internet when the rule was ``never add someone to a mailing list without her permission,'' and for the authors, that rule still applies. Anyone who wants connectivity without that rule can have all the connectivity she wants \(em to other people who also want connectivity without that rule. We have no wish to prevent connectivity between consenting parties \(em anyone who wants to be spammed ought to be spammed. But _IT(we) are not a consenting party to spamming. To the extent possible, we will make sure that no spam enters, exits, or benefits from any network we operate. .pp If you're of like mind, and you want to use Sendmail to help enforce your rules on the networks and servers you operate, this chapter will show you how. .sh +1 "Transmission .lp If you're an ISP and you want to prevent your resources from being used to send spam, there are a number of different areas you'll have to watch. One is packet level transport. If a PPP user on your modem pool is able to initiate outbound SMTP sessions toward the greater Internet, then you can be sure that many of them, including some spammers, will do so. Your Sendmail configuration won't be relevant in that case since the traffic is only passing through your terminal servers, switches, and routers. Some ISP's have shut off outbound SMTP using a firewall in order to force their customers to use local SMTP relays rather than making direct connections. It's also possible with some _SM(ISO-L4) equipment (that means smart switches and smart routers) to transparently intercept outbound SMTP and direct it to a local SMTP server. Obviously these activities are beyond the scope of a book about Sendmail \(em so we'll just start by making the assumption that your local Sendmail server is somehow required to be involved in the outbound passage of e-mail. .pp The big thing you need is on by default: logging. When someone outside your network complains to you that one of your users spammed them, it's very important that you be able to _EX(grep) your _EX(syslog) files to discover whether the transaction in question really did come through your service. (It is all to common for the actual headers of e-mail spam to be forged, and occasionally these forgeries are designed to cast unearned guilt on someone \(em one of your customers, perhaps \(em rather than merely to avoid capture.) Another fun thing to do with your _EX(syslog) files is to extract statistics about how many mail messages each of your users sends in a given period of time. Note that this has privacy implications\** and that you should not be keeping track of who the mail is sent to on any statistical basis. But it's useful for you to get a daily report showing how many e-mail messages were sent by each of your customers. If someone who usually sends one message per week sent 50,000 messages last night, you're probably in for a long day. .(f \** Note that some privacy advocates strongly oppose forcing outbound mail to go through an ISP's relays, and we've even heard of _EX(uucp) being used over _EX(ssh) tunnels as a way to bypass this. Fortunately, this kind of trick requires an outside party to cooperate, which won't be true for spam. .)f .pp Beyond logging, your spam transmission problem boils down to a strong AUP\** .(f \** Acceptable Use Policy .)f which you'll bind to your service agreement and enforce with nonrefundable deposits. Spammers are usually quite aware that nobody wants to receive what they want to send, and if you make it too easy for them to abuse your service, you can bet that they will do so. The average professional spammer spends quite a bit of time identifying providers from which to inject their traffic, and if your _EX(abuse@) mailbox is not staffed on weekends or if the person who reads it isn't empowered to suspend and disconnect customers in real time, word will get around and your service will be repeatedly abused until\** you make things better. .(f \** During this period, you can expect to receive a high volume of complaints from distant end-victims. .)f .pp The one other thing you can do to make your resources less amenable to the transmission of spam is to limit the number of recipients each message is allowed to have. Very few legitimate messages have more than a handful of envelope recipients. If you set the _EX(MaxRecipientsPerMessage) option to something like 25 or so, only a few of your customers will notice, and they can be accomodated by moving them to whatever server you use for mailing lists and other legitimate bulk mail tasks. A Sendmail consultant or any competent programmer can make _EX(MaxRecipientsPerMessage) into a per-user option rather than a global one. Use the source \(em that's what it's for. .sh +0 "Relay .lp OK, so let's say you've configured your routers and switches and terminal servers so that no outbound SMTP traffic is allowed except from your own Sendmail servers, and you've figured out how to watch those servers very carefully. The next spam-related thing to watch out for is _IT(third party relay). A third party in this case means someone who is neither an intentional agent for the sender, nor an intentional agent for the recipient. The potential third party, your Sendmail server, must not forward (that is, _IT(relay)) e-mail traffic unless either the sender or recipient (or both) are customers, partners, or trusted affiliates. In other words, don't be an _IT(unintentional) agent for _IT(any) sender nor _IT(any) recipient. .pp Why is this important? Let's revisit the average spammer's mindset\** and .(f \** Distasteful though it is. .)f note that they already know that nobody wants their spam and that any leased-line or colocated Internet connection they get won't last long if they use it to initiate spam. So in order to deliver their unwanted spew as far from their nest as possible, they use unmonitored injection points such as the modem pools mentioned earlier. However, these modem pools tend to have relatively low speeds. If the goal is to send a 4Kbyte message to 500,000 victims, that's ~2Gbytes of traffic, which at 15Kbytes/second (ISDN) will take about 37 hours to transmit. It's unlikely that the owner of that modem pool will endure 37 hours worth of complaints without taking some kind of action. .pp So, enter the third party relay. If a spammer knows of 25 mail servers which are willing to accept mail ``from the outside'' even though the destination will also be ``to the outside,'' then instead of initiating 500,000 SMTP transactions to 500,000 different victim servers they can initiate 5,000 SMTP transactions to 25 relays (that's 200 sessions per relay) with 100 recipients per SMTP transaction. This is only 20Mbytes of outbound traffic and at ISDN speeds can be finished in about 40 minutes. Obviously these are untuned numbers, and a motivated professional spammer would invest a lot of effort in finding out how many recipients each transaction should have, and how many transactions each relay should have, and so forth, in order to postpone detection while also maximizing throughput. .pp A professional spammer will also spend a lot of time searching for new relays, to try to spread their workload out as thinly as possible. We estimate that there are tens of thousands of open relays at any given moment. Every time one is closed down due to spam complaints, another is installed somewhere else. Modern Sendmail is unwilling to relay for third parties by default, but for much of its history this was not the case. A lot of those older servers are still out there, and many of them run unattended or are attended only by nontechnical personnel or by people who do not understand any language in which you can issue complaints. It's a huge problem and we urge you to avoid making it worse: ensure that your Sendmail servers will only relay a piece of mail if it was sent by, or destined for, one of your customers, agents, or affiliates. .pp Because Sendmail's defaults are correct in modern versions, we won't go into great detail about how to prevent third party relay from occuring. You'll be adding all your local domain names to _EX(/etc/mail/relay_domains) or some equivilent file, and Sendmail will search that file during the _EX(check_rcpt) ruleset which is the earliest moment when both the envelope sender, initiator IP address and domain name, and envelope recipient are all known. Mail which is coming from a trusted source or going to a trusted destination is considered OK. Everything else resolves through the _EX(error) mailer, as in .E+ R$* $#error $@ 5.7.1 $: "550 Relaying denied" .E- which causes the _EX(RCPT) verb to fail during the _EX(SMTP) transaction, thus informing the sender that what they're trying to do won't work. Let them move along and find a more willing accomplice for their evil deeds. .sh +0 "Reception .lp Inbound spam is the most visible part of the overall spam problem, simply because of the time it takes to get it out of our own personal inboxes. Back in December 2000, a personal friend whose domain has existed since the mid 1980's and is therefore listed on every ``millions of guaranteed fresh e-mail addresses for only $6.95'' _SM(CDROM) ever published, analyzed his _EX(syslog) and made the following report: .(q Here are some interesting stats for you... You can see how bizzare it really is. In 289,604 recipients, over 1843 spams, there are a maximum of 455 going to one recipient. And a bogus one at that! .)q That was quite a while ago, before his problem got so bad that he could no longer host his own inbox on a T1 (1.5Mbyte/second) line. .pp Inbound spam doesn't just hit the mailboxes of network and system operators, however. We're not the real target \(em our customers are. A few successful spam runs per night can consume tens of megabits of link capacity, and tens of gigabytes of mailbox capacity. This can lead to service level complaints \(em ``Why is the network so slow?'' and ``What do you mean my mailbox is over quota?'' being two favourites. Most providers are forced by spam to overprovision their links and their mail servers, in addition to whatever costs they incur in filtering the input stream and cleaning up whatever the filters miss. .pp So, how can Sendmail help? Well, again, the modern defaults are pretty good. Quite a bit of spam has something wrong with its headers \(em for example, the _EX(From:) domain won't exist. Sendmail's defaults throw a lot of this kind of trash away with only a _EX(syslog) entry to mark its passing. However, the spammers have a lot more time to work on their half of this problem (sending) than we do (filtering) and so any filters related to content (headers or body) are inherently weak. .pp One exception to this is Rhyolite _SM(DCC), the Distributed Checksum Clearinghouse\**. _SM(DCC) is a set of freely available open source tools which bolt onto Sendmail via the lately introduced _EX(milter) interface and allow a Sendmail server to detect similarities between mail received ``here, now'' and mail received ``elsewhere, recently.'' Depending on how you configure it, _SM(DCC) can merely mark suspected spam with an _EX(X-DCC:) header, or drop it altogether, or simply requeue it so that Sendmail can do another _EX(DCC) lookup in 30 minutes to see if the degree of distributed similarity goes up during that period. .(f \** See _EX(http://www.rhyolite.com/anti-spam/dcc/) for details. .)f .pp The _SM(DCC) tools are available completely free of charge, and include both the client and server parts so it's possible to set up your own _SM(DCC) cloud without necessarily connecting it to _SM(DCC) clouds being run by others \(em though we've found that the more Sendmail servers who participate in a given _SM(DCC) cloud, the more spam can be detected. Note that in its most primative form, _SM(DCC) can be used to detect and even block outbound mail as well, so it's not a purely inbound tool. Also note, though, that _SM(DCC) detects _IT(bulk) e-mail rather than _IT(spam). You have to tell _SM(DCC)'s ``whitelist'' about all known sources of legitimate bulk e-mail, such as mailing lists, customer newsletters, and so on. This is not an unrealistic cost when compared to _SM(DCC)'s observed benefits. .pp Ultimately, the best known tool for keeping inbound spam out of your network is to filter it out based on its source rather than its content. A number of bureaus of concerned Internet citizens now exist who publish lists of known spam sources, and the publication format was designed for Sendmail to process it in real time. Sometimes this format is called by the name _SM(RBL)\(tm, which stands for Realtime Blackhole List. _SM(RBL)\(tm is a service mark of Mail Abuse Prevention System LLC, who pioneered source-based spam filtering and who invented the format Sendmail now uses for accessing all _SM(RBL)\(tm-like lists. To teach your Sendmail to check mail sources against a published blackhole list such as the MAPS RBL, add something like .E. "FEATURE(`dnsbl', `blackholes.mail-abuse.org')" to your _EX(*.mc) file and remake your _EX(*.cf) file. Note that some lists are subscription-based and you should check with their publishers before you change your Sendmail configuration to depend on them. It's possible to check your mail sources against more than one blackhole list, so for example you might reject mail from known spam sources using one list, and from known open relays using some other list. There can be noticable loss of performance when you check too many lists, though, since each one will add a DNS lookup to every inbound mail message you receive. Some lists are available in bulk form in order to limit this performance loss \(em again, check with the list's publisher to find out what's possible before you configure your Sendmail. .sh +0 "Definition .lp But what exactly _IT(is) e-mail spam, anyway? You'll need a consistent definition that you use classify both inbound and outbound traffic. One of the questions which is still very much open in the minds of many folks is whether an e-mail message must be provably ``bulk'' before it can be considered spam. If you adhere to the ``bulk'' standard, you won't be able to act on incoming complaints until you have more than one complaint about the same outbound e-mail message, and you'll be in infinite regress trying to determine what ``the same'' means. .pp Far better, in the authors' view, to let a message be provably and deterministically ``spam'' or ``not spam'' based entirely on knowledge gained from a single complainer. The standard for ``spamness'' which most embodies this principle was found at _EX(http://mail-abuse.org/standard.html) and is reproduced here: .(q STANDARD: .sp 0.5v An electronic message is ``spam'' _SM(IF): (1) the recipient's personal identity and context are irrelevant because the message is equally applicable to many other potential recipients; _SM(AND) (2) the recipient has not verifiably granted deliberate, explicit, and still-revocable permission for it to be sent; _SM(AND) (3) the transmission and reception of the message appears to the recipient to give a disproportionate benefit to the sender. .sp 0.5v DISCUSSION: .sp 0.5v (i) Trivial or mechanised personalization such as ``Dear Mr. Jones, we see that you are the holder of the _SM(JONES.COM) domain'' does not make the personal identity of the recipient relevant in any way. .sp 0.5v (ii) Failing to click the ``do not send me marketing literature by e-mail'' button in a web sign-up form does not convey explicit permission. Only when the default result is ``no followup e-mail'' _SM(AND) the inbox impact is clearly stated before any action which changes this result, can permission of this kind be conveyed. .sp 0.5v (iii) The appearance of disproportionate benefit to the sender, and the relevancy of the recipient's specific personal identity, are authoritatively determined by the recipient, and is not subject to argument or reinterpretation by the sender. .sp 0.5v (iv) Non-personal e-mail always places a disproportionate cost burden on the recipient, and is considered to disproportionately benefit the sender unless it was verifiably solicited or by the recipient's willing exception. .sp 0.5v (v) A message need not be offensive or commercial in order to fit the definition of ``spam.'' Content is irrelevent except to the extent necessary to determine personal applicability, consent, and benefit. .)q .pp We've heard of arguments that such a standard places too much power in the hands of recipients. In our view, recipients are paying the majority of the cost of e-mail transport, and thus ought to have the strongest voice in what's sent (or not) to them. Besides which, such an argument presumes that there's a piece of mail that a sender isn't certain was solicited. Our advice is: _IT(don't send it then!). --- From chris.gettings at videonext.com Wed Jan 2 23:19:38 2008 From: chris.gettings at videonext.com (Chris Gettings) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 23:19:38 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: <40678.1199332703@sa.vix.com> Message-ID: I think you folks have lost it. You should just be suing each other. And if there was some grounds (and you were real, mature business people) your lawyers you would never let you communicate this way anyway. Your incessant messages are not directed to the purported purpose of this list. Get another one instead. I subscribed because I simply wanted to understand and monitor what was going on with my ARIN allocation and IP addresses. Ah! Perhaps you are trying to drive the rest of us away as part of the conspiracy...and what is that ?answer under separate cover? nonsense? That?s a smoking gun for sure.... Clearly, you are ridiculous nimrods for wasting so much of everyone?s bandwidth with your drivel. You should be censored by the moderators. Chris Gettings On 1/2/08 10:58 PM, "Paul Vixie" wrote: >>> > > furthermore, if the employment of former MAPS employees after leaving >>> > > MAPS ought to reflect on the founders of MAPS somehow, then shouldn't >>> > > you also do an exhaustive search to find out where every one of them >>> > > wound up? (and also for every other company founded by any ARIN board >>> > > member?) (or any company where an ARIN board member was an executive?) >> > >> > As the managing director of MAPS, you were responsible for training and >> > indoctrinating these people. > > there were no indoctrinations. my biggest responsibility was setting policy > and my second biggest was making payroll happen. while i hold responsibility > for everything done by a MAPS employee, i don't have any control (nor would i > want it) of what folks do after they leave my employ. perhaps MAPS was not > the kind of company you thought it was, or perhaps the world is not the kind > of place you thought it was. > >> > It wasn't just one bad apple; It was two. > > for all i know, scott richter hired peter and kelly with the challenge of > "please help me run a more responsible organization". i have no knowledge, > but it sounds like you don't either, so maybe you should ask peter and kelly? > >> > Did you profit from Whitehat.com? > > i'll answer that under separate cover. > >>> > > i find the quality of the investigations so far deplorably low. >> > >> > So far, I must agree. It is quite difficult to investigate while >> stonewalled >> > by Management and the Board. The investigations would be greatly helped if >> > ARIN would respond to the questions that have been asked. Most of the >> > information so far has been gleaned from outside of ARIN. > > while i don't mind answering questions sent to arin-discuss@ if it'll help > the membership determine the character of their trustees, i think that if you > want an answer from "the board" or "management" you should direct your > inquiries to them by certified letter, perhaps even working through your > attorney who might decide to work through ARIN's attorney. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Discussion > Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you > experience any issues. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brad at belwave.com Wed Jan 2 23:51:56 2008 From: brad at belwave.com (Brad Belton) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 22:51:56 -0600 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: References: <40678.1199332703@sa.vix.com> Message-ID: <018d01c84dc4$5e073ac0$1a15b040$@com> Chris, With all due respect (if deserving) I suggest you unsubscribe if the few emails generated by this discussion group is taxing your available bandwidth. Best, Brad Belton BelWave Communications O: 817-737-3124 #101 F: 817-336-7031 From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chris Gettings Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 10:20 PM To: Paul Vixie; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: Henry Valentino Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations I think you folks have lost it. You should just be suing each other. And if there was some grounds (and you were real, mature business people) your lawyers you would never let you communicate this way anyway. Your incessant messages are not directed to the purported purpose of this list. Get another one instead. I subscribed because I simply wanted to understand and monitor what was going on with my ARIN allocation and IP addresses. Ah! Perhaps you are trying to drive the rest of us away as part of the conspiracy...and what is that "answer under separate cover" nonsense? That's a smoking gun for sure.... Clearly, you are ridiculous nimrods for wasting so much of everyone's bandwidth with your drivel. You should be censored by the moderators. Chris Gettings On 1/2/08 10:58 PM, "Paul Vixie" wrote: > > furthermore, if the employment of former MAPS employees after leaving > > MAPS ought to reflect on the founders of MAPS somehow, then shouldn't > > you also do an exhaustive search to find out where every one of them > > wound up? (and also for every other company founded by any ARIN board > > member?) (or any company where an ARIN board member was an executive?) > > As the managing director of MAPS, you were responsible for training and > indoctrinating these people. there were no indoctrinations. my biggest responsibility was setting policy and my second biggest was making payroll happen. while i hold responsibility for everything done by a MAPS employee, i don't have any control (nor would i want it) of what folks do after they leave my employ. perhaps MAPS was not the kind of company you thought it was, or perhaps the world is not the kind of place you thought it was. > It wasn't just one bad apple; It was two. for all i know, scott richter hired peter and kelly with the challenge of "please help me run a more responsible organization". i have no knowledge, but it sounds like you don't either, so maybe you should ask peter and kelly? > Did you profit from Whitehat.com? i'll answer that under separate cover. > > i find the quality of the investigations so far deplorably low. > > So far, I must agree. It is quite difficult to investigate while stonewalled > by Management and the Board. The investigations would be greatly helped if > ARIN would respond to the questions that have been asked. Most of the > information so far has been gleaned from outside of ARIN. while i don't mind answering questions sent to arin-discuss@ if it'll help the membership determine the character of their trustees, i think that if you want an answer from "the board" or "management" you should direct your inquiries to them by certified letter, perhaps even working through your attorney who might decide to work through ARIN's attorney. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris.gettings at videonext.com Thu Jan 3 02:13:47 2008 From: chris.gettings at videonext.com (Chris Gettings) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 02:13:47 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: <018d01c84dc4$5e073ac0$1a15b040$@com> Message-ID: No Brad, I want to listen to the legitimate dialog on the business of ARIN. I am entitled to that. I have had my modest allocation since 1994. But the guy who keeps complaining about the ARIN management should just sue if he has been harmed -- instead of burying the relevant messages for the whole group amongst his b.s. This deprives everyone of the use of the group. I can?t believe I even bothered to reply to the flame I almost never do and I apologize. I?m stooping to the level of those characters I am complaining about. And FYI the the high cost is to my ?personal bandwidth? to look at the damned messages, not internet bandwidth. I have a fat pipe and plenty of bandwidth for genuine traffic. But this topic is like spam and is not producing any legitimate traffic for the list and I finally snapped. How long have we ARIN list users been subjected to these messages while reading the list in hopes of relevant information? Brad is your page at www.belwave.com not compatible with Firefox or Safari? None of the links for ?services? or ?support? or ?references? or ?contact us? work. But maybe I have to use Internet Explorer only? I see you have a /19 CIDR, same as me. How much bandwidth do you have? I see the ?Network Status? section of your page at www.belwave.com but the source of the page is just static HTML and the green lights that show Belwave.com ?Network Status? are just permanently green icons ?/greenlight.gif? which are not really connected to any network reporting that I can see. I have posted the source of your page below where you are ?reporting the status? of your North and South Fiber Routes. (I was able to find this with the ?view source? command in my browsers when nothing I clicked on went anywhere. I was amazed that my browser could do this, but it is cool software.) I think the problem is that ?greenlight.gif? has to actually connect to something or it just sits there green all the time no matter what the www.belwave.com network is connected to. It seems that people who went there thinking they could check the status of belwave.com are led to believe the status is just fine, all green ? when actually the greenlight.gif means nothing at all. That seems disingenuous to me or maybe I just don?t understand how the html stuff works. I hate to put such a fine point on it for you Brad but those guys really should take their dispute elsewhere and I am right to complain about it. Thanks, and now I am sorry that everyone on the list had to listen to me rant, too. I feel better though, just not productive. Best, Christopher Gettings Chairman VideoNEXT 703.489.6781 (mobile) 703.657.1204 (direct) 703-378-7892 (fax) www.videoNext.com 888.876.SAFE (24x7 Support) chris.gettings at videonext.com -- On 1/2/08 11:51 PM, "Brad Belton" wrote: > Chris, > > With all due respect (if deserving) I suggest you unsubscribe if the few > emails generated by this discussion group is taxing your available bandwidth. > > Best, > > > > Brad Belton > BelWave Communications > O: 817-737-3124 #101 > F: 817-336-7031 > > > > > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On > Behalf Of Chris Gettings > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 10:20 PM > To: Paul Vixie; arin-discuss at arin.net > Cc: Henry Valentino > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations > > I think you folks have lost it. You should just be suing each other. And if > there was some grounds (and you were real, mature business people) your > lawyers you would never let you communicate this way anyway. Your incessant > messages are not directed to the purported purpose of this list. Get another > one instead. I subscribed because I simply wanted to understand and monitor > what was going on with my ARIN allocation and IP addresses. > > Ah! Perhaps you are trying to drive the rest of us away as part of the > conspiracy...and what is that ?answer under separate cover? nonsense? That?s > a smoking gun for sure.... > > Clearly, you are ridiculous nimrods for wasting so much of everyone?s > bandwidth with your drivel. You should be censored by the moderators. > > Chris Gettings > > On 1/2/08 10:58 PM, "Paul Vixie" wrote: >>> > > furthermore, if the employment of former MAPS employees after leaving >>> > > MAPS ought to reflect on the founders of MAPS somehow, then shouldn't >>> > > you also do an exhaustive search to find out where every one of them >>> > > wound up? (and also for every other company founded by any ARIN board >>> > > member?) (or any company where an ARIN board member was an executive?) >> > >> > As the managing director of MAPS, you were responsible for training and >> > indoctrinating these people. > > there were no indoctrinations. my biggest responsibility was setting policy > and my second biggest was making payroll happen. while i hold responsibility > for everything done by a MAPS employee, i don't have any control (nor would i > want it) of what folks do after they leave my employ. perhaps MAPS was not > the kind of company you thought it was, or perhaps the world is not the kind > of place you thought it was. > >> > It wasn't just one bad apple; It was two. > > for all i know, scott richter hired peter and kelly with the challenge of > "please help me run a more responsible organization". i have no knowledge, > but it sounds like you don't either, so maybe you should ask peter and kelly? > >> > Did you profit from Whitehat.com? > > i'll answer that under separate cover. > >>> > > i find the quality of the investigations so far deplorably low. >> > >> > So far, I must agree. It is quite difficult to investigate while >> stonewalled >> > by Management and the Board. The investigations would be greatly helped if >> > ARIN would respond to the questions that have been asked. Most of the >> > information so far has been gleaned from outside of ARIN. > > while i don't mind answering questions sent to arin-discuss@ if it'll help > the membership determine the character of their trustees, i think that if you > want an answer from "the board" or "management" you should direct your > inquiries to them by certified letter, perhaps even working through your > attorney who might decide to work through ARIN's attorney. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Discussion > Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you > experience any issues. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.dillon at bt.com Thu Jan 3 05:40:42 2008 From: michael.dillon at bt.com (michael.dillon at bt.com) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 10:40:42 -0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: References: <52821.1199219180@sa.vix.com> Message-ID: > As the managing director of MAPS, you were responsible for > training and indoctrinating these people. Indoctrinating? I believe that strategy has been tried and shown to be a dismal failure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism --Michael Dillon From brad at belwave.com Thu Jan 3 09:25:52 2008 From: brad at belwave.com (Brad Belton) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 08:25:52 -0600 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: References: <018d01c84dc4$5e073ac0$1a15b040$@com> Message-ID: <01ca01c84e14$8b9d3f70$a2d7be50$@com> Yes Chris, it is better that you refrain from whining about bandwidth usage (personal or otherwise) on a public forum when the obvious and simple solution to your problem is to simply unsubscribe. Save the rest of us from your horrific plight. Webpage? No need for one as we have clearly demonstrated for the past several years. /19 allocation? You need to do some more homework. Fat Pipe? Is that your router or did you settle on the DLink? Whiny posts like yours deserve to be flamed. The whiny ones like yourself are always first to say they never "stoop" to reply when in fact they are always the first to hit the send button. Your problem, issue or dilemma is simply and easily resolved without a public announcement to the rest of us. Handle it Chris. Best, Brad Belton BelWave Communications O: 817-737-3124 #101 F: 817-336-7031 From: Chris Gettings [mailto:chris.gettings at videonext.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 1:14 AM To: Brad Belton; Paul Vixie; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: Henry Valentino Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations No Brad, I want to listen to the legitimate dialog on the business of ARIN. I am entitled to that. I have had my modest allocation since 1994. But the guy who keeps complaining about the ARIN management should just sue if he has been harmed -- instead of burying the relevant messages for the whole group amongst his b.s. This deprives everyone of the use of the group. I can't believe I even bothered to reply to the flame I almost never do and I apologize. I'm stooping to the level of those characters I am complaining about. And FYI the the high cost is to my "personal bandwidth" to look at the damned messages, not internet bandwidth. I have a fat pipe and plenty of bandwidth for genuine traffic. But this topic is like spam and is not producing any legitimate traffic for the list and I finally snapped. How long have we ARIN list users been subjected to these messages while reading the list in hopes of relevant information? Brad is your page at www.belwave.com not compatible with Firefox or Safari? None of the links for "services" or "support" or "references" or "contact us" work. But maybe I have to use Internet Explorer only? I see you have a /19 CIDR, same as me. How much bandwidth do you have? I see the "Network Status" section of your page at www.belwave.com but the source of the page is just static HTML and the green lights that show Belwave.com "Network Status" are just permanently green icons "/greenlight.gif" which are not really connected to any network reporting that I can see. I have posted the source of your page below where you are "reporting the status" of your North and South Fiber Routes. (I was able to find this with the "view source" command in my browsers when nothing I clicked on went anywhere. I was amazed that my browser could do this, but it is cool software.)

North Fiber Route

South Fiber Route

I think the problem is that "greenlight.gif" has to actually connect to something or it just sits there green all the time no matter what the www.belwave.com network is connected to. It seems that people who went there thinking they could check the status of belwave.com are led to believe the status is just fine, all green - when actually the greenlight.gif means nothing at all. That seems disingenuous to me or maybe I just don't understand how the html stuff works. I hate to put such a fine point on it for you Brad but those guys really should take their dispute elsewhere and I am right to complain about it. Thanks, and now I am sorry that everyone on the list had to listen to me rant, too. I feel better though, just not productive. Best, Christopher Gettings Chairman VideoNEXT 703.489.6781 (mobile) 703.657.1204 (direct) 703-378-7892 (fax) www.videoNext.com 888.876.SAFE (24x7 Support) chris.gettings at videonext.com -- On 1/2/08 11:51 PM, "Brad Belton" wrote: Chris, With all due respect (if deserving) I suggest you unsubscribe if the few emails generated by this discussion group is taxing your available bandwidth. Best, Brad Belton BelWave Communications O: 817-737-3124 #101 F: 817-336-7031 From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chris Gettings Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 10:20 PM To: Paul Vixie; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: Henry Valentino Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations I think you folks have lost it. You should just be suing each other. And if there was some grounds (and you were real, mature business people) your lawyers you would never let you communicate this way anyway. Your incessant messages are not directed to the purported purpose of this list. Get another one instead. I subscribed because I simply wanted to understand and monitor what was going on with my ARIN allocation and IP addresses. Ah! Perhaps you are trying to drive the rest of us away as part of the conspiracy...and what is that "answer under separate cover" nonsense? That's a smoking gun for sure.... Clearly, you are ridiculous nimrods for wasting so much of everyone's bandwidth with your drivel. You should be censored by the moderators. Chris Gettings On 1/2/08 10:58 PM, "Paul Vixie" wrote: > > furthermore, if the employment of former MAPS employees after leaving > > MAPS ought to reflect on the founders of MAPS somehow, then shouldn't > > you also do an exhaustive search to find out where every one of them > > wound up? (and also for every other company founded by any ARIN board > > member?) (or any company where an ARIN board member was an executive?) > > As the managing director of MAPS, you were responsible for training and > indoctrinating these people. there were no indoctrinations. my biggest responsibility was setting policy and my second biggest was making payroll happen. while i hold responsibility for everything done by a MAPS employee, i don't have any control (nor would i want it) of what folks do after they leave my employ. perhaps MAPS was not the kind of company you thought it was, or perhaps the world is not the kind of place you thought it was. > It wasn't just one bad apple; It was two. for all i know, scott richter hired peter and kelly with the challenge of "please help me run a more responsible organization". i have no knowledge, but it sounds like you don't either, so maybe you should ask peter and kelly? > Did you profit from Whitehat.com? i'll answer that under separate cover. > > i find the quality of the investigations so far deplorably low. > > So far, I must agree. It is quite difficult to investigate while stonewalled > by Management and the Board. The investigations would be greatly helped if > ARIN would respond to the questions that have been asked. Most of the > information so far has been gleaned from outside of ARIN. while i don't mind answering questions sent to arin-discuss@ if it'll help the membership determine the character of their trustees, i think that if you want an answer from "the board" or "management" you should direct your inquiries to them by certified letter, perhaps even working through your attorney who might decide to work through ARIN's attorney. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gilbert.G at phoenixinternet.net Thu Jan 3 10:48:09 2008 From: Gilbert.G at phoenixinternet.net (Gilbert T. Gutierrez, Jr.) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 08:48:09 -0700 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: <01ca01c84e14$8b9d3f70$a2d7be50$@com> References: <018d01c84dc4$5e073ac0$1a15b040$@com> <01ca01c84e14$8b9d3f70$a2d7be50$@com> Message-ID: <00ce01c84e20$0a7ad040$700510ac@GPI.GPINC.NET> I agree with Chris, this thread has moved from informative to rant/white noise and should be moved somewhere else. All people involved in this thread, please kindly move it somewhere else. Regards, Gilbert T. Gutierrez, Jr. Operations Manager Phoenix Internet 2922 W CLARENDON AVE PHOENIX, AZ 85017 Gilbert.G at phoenixinternet.net IM: phxintgilbert http://www.phoenixinternet.net tel: (602)234-0917x106 fax: (602)234-0699 ________________________________________ From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 7:26 AM To: 'Chris Gettings'; 'Paul Vixie'; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: 'Henry Valentino' Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations Yes Chris, it is better that you refrain from whining about bandwidth usage (personal or otherwise) on a public forum when the obvious and simple solution to your problem is to simply unsubscribe.? Save the rest of us from your horrific plight Webpage?? No need for one as we have clearly demonstrated for the past several years.? /19 allocation?? You need to do some more homework. Fat Pipe?? Is that your router or did you settle on the DLink? Whiny posts like yours deserve to be flamed.? The whiny ones like yourself are always first to say they never ?stoop? to reply when in fact they are always the first to hit the send button.? Your problem, issue or dilemma is simply and easily resolved without a public announcement to the rest of us.? Handle it Chris. Best, Brad Belton BelWave Communications O:? 817-737-3124 #101 F:? 817-336-7031 From: Chris Gettings [mailto:chris.gettings at videonext.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 1:14 AM To: Brad Belton; Paul Vixie; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: Henry Valentino Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations No Brad, I want to listen to the legitimate dialog on the business of ARIN. I am entitled to that. I have had my modest allocation since 1994. But the guy who keeps complaining about the ARIN management should just sue if he has been harmed -- instead of burying the relevant messages for the whole group amongst his b.s. This deprives everyone of the use of the group. ? I can?t believe I even bothered to reply to the flame I almost never do and I apologize. ?I?m stooping to the level of those characters I am complaining about. ?And FYI the the high cost is to my ?personal bandwidth? to look at the damned messages, not internet bandwidth. ?I have a fat pipe and plenty of bandwidth for genuine traffic. ?But this topic ?is like spam and is not producing any legitimate traffic for the list and I finally snapped. ?How long have we ARIN list users been subjected to these messages while reading the list in hopes of relevant information? ? Brad is your page at www.belwave.com not compatible with Firefox or Safari? None of the links for ?services? or ?support? or ?references? or ?contact us? work. ?But maybe I have to use Internet Explorer only? ? I see you have a /19 CIDR, same as me. ?How much bandwidth do you have? ?I see the ?Network Status? section of your page at www.belwave.com but the source of the page is just static HTML and the green lights that show Belwave.com ?Network Status? are just permanently green icons ?/greenlight.gif? which are not really connected to any network reporting that I can see. ? I have posted the source of your page below where you are ?reporting the status? of your North and South Fiber Routes. ?(I was able to find this with the ?view source? command in my browsers when nothing I clicked on went anywhere. I was amazed that my browser could do this, but it is cool software.)

North Fiber Route

South Fiber Route

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? I think the problem is that ?greenlight.gif? has to actually connect to something or it just sits there green all the time no matter what the www.belwave.com network is connected to. It seems that people who went there thinking they could check the status of belwave.com are led to believe the status is just fine, all green ? when actually the greenlight.gif means nothing at all. ?That seems disingenuous to me or maybe I just don?t understand how the html stuff works. I hate to put such a fine point on it for you Brad but those guys really should take their dispute elsewhere and I am right to complain about it. Thanks, and now I am sorry that everyone on the list had to listen to me rant, too. ?I feel better though, just not productive. Best, Christopher Gettings Chairman VideoNEXT 703.489.6781 ?(mobile) 703.657.1204 ?(direct) 703-378-7892 ?(fax) www.videoNext.com 888.876.SAFE (24x7 Support) chris.gettings at videonext.com -- On 1/2/08 11:51 PM, "Brad Belton" wrote: Chris, ? With all due respect (if deserving) I suggest you unsubscribe if the few emails generated by this discussion group is taxing your available bandwidth. ? Best, ? ? ? Brad Belton BelWave Communications O: ?817-737-3124 #101 F: ?817-336-7031 ? ? ? From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chris Gettings Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 10:20 PM To: Paul Vixie; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: Henry Valentino Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations I think you folks have lost it. ?You should just be suing each other. ?And if there was some grounds (and you were real, mature business people) your lawyers you would never let you communicate this way anyway. ?Your incessant messages are not directed to the purported purpose of this list. ?Get another one instead. ?I subscribed because I simply wanted to understand and monitor what was going on with my ARIN allocation and IP addresses. Ah! Perhaps you are trying to drive the rest of us away as part of the conspiracy...and what is that ?answer under separate cover? nonsense? ?That?s a smoking gun for sure.... Clearly, you are ridiculous nimrods for wasting so much of everyone?s bandwidth with your drivel. ?You should be censored by the moderators. Chris Gettings On 1/2/08 10:58 PM, "Paul Vixie" wrote: > > furthermore, if the employment of former MAPS employees after leaving > > MAPS ought to reflect on the founders of MAPS somehow, then shouldn't > > you also do an exhaustive search to find out where every one of them > > wound up? ?(and also for every other company founded by any ARIN board > > member?) ?(or any company where an ARIN board member was an executive?) > > As the managing director of MAPS, you were responsible for training and > indoctrinating these people. there were no indoctrinations. ?my biggest responsibility was setting policy and my second biggest was making payroll happen. ?while i hold responsibility for everything done by a MAPS employee, i don't have any control (nor would i want it) of what folks do after they leave my employ. ?perhaps MAPS was not the kind of company you thought it was, or perhaps the world is not the kind of place you thought it was. > It wasn't just one bad apple; It was two. for all i know, scott richter hired peter and kelly with the challenge of "please help me run a more responsible organization". ?i have no knowledge, but it sounds like you don't either, so maybe you should ask peter and kelly? > Did you profit from Whitehat.com? i'll answer that under separate cover. > > i find the quality of the investigations so far deplorably low. > > So far, I must agree. It is quite difficult to investigate while stonewalled > by Management and the Board. ?The investigations would be greatly helped if > ARIN would respond to the questions that have been asked. ?Most of the > information so far has been gleaned from outside of ARIN. while i don't mind answering questions sent to arin-discuss@ if it'll help the membership determine the character of their trustees, i think that if you want an answer from "the board" or "management" you should direct your inquiries to them by certified letter, perhaps even working through your attorney who might decide to work through ARIN's attorney. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. ? From dlechlitner at decommunications.com Thu Jan 3 10:59:43 2008 From: dlechlitner at decommunications.com (Lechlitner, David R) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 10:59:43 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: <00ce01c84e20$0a7ad040$700510ac@GPI.GPINC.NET> Message-ID: <507F49D619DFA64D87E546F18DE2FA460477E90D@CL-EXCHANGE1.dande.com> I couldn't agree more! Dave Lechlitner IT Operations Manager D&E Communications, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Gilbert T. Gutierrez, Jr. Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:48 AM To: 'Brad Belton'; 'Chris Gettings'; 'Paul Vixie'; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: 'Henry Valentino' Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations I agree with Chris, this thread has moved from informative to rant/white noise and should be moved somewhere else. All people involved in this thread, please kindly move it somewhere else. Regards, Gilbert T. Gutierrez, Jr. Operations Manager Phoenix Internet 2922 W CLARENDON AVE PHOENIX, AZ 85017 Gilbert.G at phoenixinternet.net IM: phxintgilbert http://www.phoenixinternet.net tel: (602)234-0917x106 fax: (602)234-0699 ________________________________________ From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 7:26 AM To: 'Chris Gettings'; 'Paul Vixie'; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: 'Henry Valentino' Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations Yes Chris, it is better that you refrain from whining about bandwidth usage (personal or otherwise) on a public forum when the obvious and simple solution to your problem is to simply unsubscribe.? Save the rest of us from your horrific plight... Webpage?? No need for one as we have clearly demonstrated for the past several years.? /19 allocation?? You need to do some more homework. Fat Pipe?? Is that your router or did you settle on the DLink? Whiny posts like yours deserve to be flamed.? The whiny ones like yourself are always first to say they never "stoop" to reply when in fact they are always the first to hit the send button.? Your problem, issue or dilemma is simply and easily resolved without a public announcement to the rest of us. Handle it Chris. Best, Brad Belton BelWave Communications O:? 817-737-3124 #101 F:? 817-336-7031 From: Chris Gettings [mailto:chris.gettings at videonext.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 1:14 AM To: Brad Belton; Paul Vixie; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: Henry Valentino Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations No Brad, I want to listen to the legitimate dialog on the business of ARIN. I am entitled to that. I have had my modest allocation since 1994. But the guy who keeps complaining about the ARIN management should just sue if he has been harmed -- instead of burying the relevant messages for the whole group amongst his b.s. This deprives everyone of the use of the group. ? I can't believe I even bothered to reply to the flame I almost never do and I apologize. ?I'm stooping to the level of those characters I am complaining about. ?And FYI the the high cost is to my "personal bandwidth" to look at the damned messages, not internet bandwidth. ?I have a fat pipe and plenty of bandwidth for genuine traffic. ?But this topic ?is like spam and is not producing any legitimate traffic for the list and I finally snapped. ?How long have we ARIN list users been subjected to these messages while reading the list in hopes of relevant information? ? Brad is your page at www.belwave.com not compatible with Firefox or Safari? None of the links for "services" or "support" or "references" or "contact us" work. ?But maybe I have to use Internet Explorer only? I see you have a /19 CIDR, same as me. ?How much bandwidth do you have? ?I see the "Network Status" section of your page at www.belwave.com but the source of the page is just static HTML and the green lights that show Belwave.com "Network Status" are just permanently green icons "/greenlight.gif" which are not really connected to any network reporting that I can see. ? I have posted the source of your page below where you are "reporting the status" of your North and South Fiber Routes. ?(I was able to find this with the "view source" command in my browsers when nothing I clicked on went anywhere. I was amazed that my browser could do this, but it is cool software.)
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Nort h ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Fibe r ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Rout e

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Sout h ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Fibe r ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Rout e

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? I think the problem is that "greenlight.gif" has to actually connect to something or it just sits there green all the time no matter what the www.belwave.com network is connected to. It seems that people who went there thinking they could check the status of belwave.com are led to believe the status is just fine, all green - when actually the greenlight.gif means nothing at all. ?That seems disingenuous to me or maybe I just don't understand how the html stuff works. I hate to put such a fine point on it for you Brad but those guys really should take their dispute elsewhere and I am right to complain about it. Thanks, and now I am sorry that everyone on the list had to listen to me rant, too. ?I feel better though, just not productive. Best, Christopher Gettings Chairman VideoNEXT 703.489.6781 ?(mobile) 703.657.1204 ?(direct) 703-378-7892 ?(fax) www.videoNext.com 888.876.SAFE (24x7 Support) chris.gettings at videonext.com -- On 1/2/08 11:51 PM, "Brad Belton" wrote: Chris, ? With all due respect (if deserving) I suggest you unsubscribe if the few emails generated by this discussion group is taxing your available bandwidth. ? Best, ? ? ? Brad Belton BelWave Communications O: ?817-737-3124 #101 F: ?817-336-7031 ? ? ? From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chris Gettings Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 10:20 PM To: Paul Vixie; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: Henry Valentino Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations I think you folks have lost it. ?You should just be suing each other. ?And if there was some grounds (and you were real, mature business people) your lawyers you would never let you communicate this way anyway. ?Your incessant messages are not directed to the purported purpose of this list. ?Get another one instead. ?I subscribed because I simply wanted to understand and monitor what was going on with my ARIN allocation and IP addresses. Ah! Perhaps you are trying to drive the rest of us away as part of the conspiracy...and what is that "answer under separate cover" nonsense? ?That's a smoking gun for sure.... Clearly, you are ridiculous nimrods for wasting so much of everyone's bandwidth with your drivel. ?You should be censored by the moderators. Chris Gettings On 1/2/08 10:58 PM, "Paul Vixie" wrote: > > furthermore, if the employment of former MAPS employees after > > leaving MAPS ought to reflect on the founders of MAPS somehow, then > > shouldn't you also do an exhaustive search to find out where every > > one of them wound up? ?(and also for every other company founded by > > any ARIN board > > member?) ?(or any company where an ARIN board member was an > > executive?) > > As the managing director of MAPS, you were responsible for training > and indoctrinating these people. there were no indoctrinations. ?my biggest responsibility was setting policy and my second biggest was making payroll happen. ?while i hold responsibility for everything done by a MAPS employee, i don't have any control (nor would i want it) of what folks do after they leave my employ. ?perhaps MAPS was not the kind of company you thought it was, or perhaps the world is not the kind of place you thought it was. > It wasn't just one bad apple; It was two. for all i know, scott richter hired peter and kelly with the challenge of "please help me run a more responsible organization". ?i have no knowledge, but it sounds like you don't either, so maybe you should ask peter and kelly? > Did you profit from Whitehat.com? i'll answer that under separate cover. > > i find the quality of the investigations so far deplorably low. > > So far, I must agree. It is quite difficult to investigate while stonewalled > by Management and the Board. ?The investigations would be greatly > helped if > ARIN would respond to the questions that have been asked. ?Most of the > information so far has been gleaned from outside of ARIN. while i don't mind answering questions sent to arin-discuss@ if it'll help the membership determine the character of their trustees, i think that if you want an answer from "the board" or "management" you should direct your inquiries to them by certified letter, perhaps even working through your attorney who might decide to work through ARIN's attorney. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. ? _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. **DISCLAIMER This e-mail message and any files transmitted with it are intended for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed and may contain information that is privileged, proprietary and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender and delete this e-mail message. The contents do not represent the opinion of D&E except to the extent that it relates to their official business. From Scott.Shackelford at cox.com Thu Jan 3 11:03:36 2008 From: Scott.Shackelford at cox.com (Scott.Shackelford at cox.com) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 11:03:36 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: <507F49D619DFA64D87E546F18DE2FA460477E90D@CL-EXCHANGE1.dande.com> References: <00ce01c84e20$0a7ad040$700510ac@GPI.GPINC.NET> <507F49D619DFA64D87E546F18DE2FA460477E90D@CL-EXCHANGE1.dande.com> Message-ID: Ditto....please. Scott Shackelford IP Engineer/IP Administrator Cox Communications -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Lechlitner, David R Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 11:00 AM To: Gilbert T. Gutierrez, Jr.; Brad Belton; Chris Gettings; Paul Vixie; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: Henry Valentino Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations I couldn't agree more! Dave Lechlitner IT Operations Manager D&E Communications, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Gilbert T. Gutierrez, Jr. Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:48 AM To: 'Brad Belton'; 'Chris Gettings'; 'Paul Vixie'; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: 'Henry Valentino' Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations I agree with Chris, this thread has moved from informative to rant/white noise and should be moved somewhere else. All people involved in this thread, please kindly move it somewhere else. Regards, Gilbert T. Gutierrez, Jr. Operations Manager Phoenix Internet 2922 W CLARENDON AVE PHOENIX, AZ 85017 Gilbert.G at phoenixinternet.net IM: phxintgilbert http://www.phoenixinternet.net tel: (602)234-0917x106 fax: (602)234-0699 ________________________________________ From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 7:26 AM To: 'Chris Gettings'; 'Paul Vixie'; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: 'Henry Valentino' Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations Yes Chris, it is better that you refrain from whining about bandwidth usage (personal or otherwise) on a public forum when the obvious and simple solution to your problem is to simply unsubscribe.? Save the rest of us from your horrific plight... Webpage?? No need for one as we have clearly demonstrated for the past several years.? /19 allocation?? You need to do some more homework. Fat Pipe?? Is that your router or did you settle on the DLink? Whiny posts like yours deserve to be flamed.? The whiny ones like yourself are always first to say they never "stoop" to reply when in fact they are always the first to hit the send button.? Your problem, issue or dilemma is simply and easily resolved without a public announcement to the rest of us. Handle it Chris. Best, Brad Belton BelWave Communications O:? 817-737-3124 #101 F:? 817-336-7031 From: Chris Gettings [mailto:chris.gettings at videonext.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 1:14 AM To: Brad Belton; Paul Vixie; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: Henry Valentino Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations No Brad, I want to listen to the legitimate dialog on the business of ARIN. I am entitled to that. I have had my modest allocation since 1994. But the guy who keeps complaining about the ARIN management should just sue if he has been harmed -- instead of burying the relevant messages for the whole group amongst his b.s. This deprives everyone of the use of the group. ? I can't believe I even bothered to reply to the flame I almost never do and I apologize. ?I'm stooping to the level of those characters I am complaining about. ?And FYI the the high cost is to my "personal bandwidth" to look at the damned messages, not internet bandwidth. ?I have a fat pipe and plenty of bandwidth for genuine traffic. ?But this topic ?is like spam and is not producing any legitimate traffic for the list and I finally snapped. ?How long have we ARIN list users been subjected to these messages while reading the list in hopes of relevant information? ? Brad is your page at www.belwave.com not compatible with Firefox or Safari? None of the links for "services" or "support" or "references" or "contact us" work. ?But maybe I have to use Internet Explorer only? I see you have a /19 CIDR, same as me. ?How much bandwidth do you have? ?I see the "Network Status" section of your page at www.belwave.com but the source of the page is just static HTML and the green lights that show Belwave.com "Network Status" are just permanently green icons "/greenlight.gif" which are not really connected to any network reporting that I can see. ? I have posted the source of your page below where you are "reporting the status" of your North and South Fiber Routes. ?(I was able to find this with the "view source" command in my browsers when nothing I clicked on went anywhere. I was amazed that my browser could do this, but it is cool software.)
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Nort h ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Fibe r ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Rout e

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Sout h ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Fibe r ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Rout e

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? I think the problem is that "greenlight.gif" has to actually connect to something or it just sits there green all the time no matter what the www.belwave.com network is connected to. It seems that people who went there thinking they could check the status of belwave.com are led to believe the status is just fine, all green - when actually the greenlight.gif means nothing at all. ?That seems disingenuous to me or maybe I just don't understand how the html stuff works. I hate to put such a fine point on it for you Brad but those guys really should take their dispute elsewhere and I am right to complain about it. Thanks, and now I am sorry that everyone on the list had to listen to me rant, too. ?I feel better though, just not productive. Best, Christopher Gettings Chairman VideoNEXT 703.489.6781 ?(mobile) 703.657.1204 ?(direct) 703-378-7892 ?(fax) www.videoNext.com 888.876.SAFE (24x7 Support) chris.gettings at videonext.com -- On 1/2/08 11:51 PM, "Brad Belton" wrote: Chris, ? With all due respect (if deserving) I suggest you unsubscribe if the few emails generated by this discussion group is taxing your available bandwidth. ? Best, ? ? ? Brad Belton BelWave Communications O: ?817-737-3124 #101 F: ?817-336-7031 ? ? ? From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chris Gettings Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 10:20 PM To: Paul Vixie; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: Henry Valentino Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations I think you folks have lost it. ?You should just be suing each other. ?And if there was some grounds (and you were real, mature business people) your lawyers you would never let you communicate this way anyway. ?Your incessant messages are not directed to the purported purpose of this list. ?Get another one instead. ?I subscribed because I simply wanted to understand and monitor what was going on with my ARIN allocation and IP addresses. Ah! Perhaps you are trying to drive the rest of us away as part of the conspiracy...and what is that "answer under separate cover" nonsense? ?That's a smoking gun for sure.... Clearly, you are ridiculous nimrods for wasting so much of everyone's bandwidth with your drivel. ?You should be censored by the moderators. Chris Gettings On 1/2/08 10:58 PM, "Paul Vixie" wrote: > > furthermore, if the employment of former MAPS employees after > > leaving MAPS ought to reflect on the founders of MAPS somehow, then > > shouldn't you also do an exhaustive search to find out where every > > one of them wound up? ?(and also for every other company founded by > > any ARIN board > > member?) ?(or any company where an ARIN board member was an > > executive?) > > As the managing director of MAPS, you were responsible for training > and indoctrinating these people. there were no indoctrinations. ?my biggest responsibility was setting policy and my second biggest was making payroll happen. ?while i hold responsibility for everything done by a MAPS employee, i don't have any control (nor would i want it) of what folks do after they leave my employ. ?perhaps MAPS was not the kind of company you thought it was, or perhaps the world is not the kind of place you thought it was. > It wasn't just one bad apple; It was two. for all i know, scott richter hired peter and kelly with the challenge of "please help me run a more responsible organization". ?i have no knowledge, but it sounds like you don't either, so maybe you should ask peter and kelly? > Did you profit from Whitehat.com? i'll answer that under separate cover. > > i find the quality of the investigations so far deplorably low. > > So far, I must agree. It is quite difficult to investigate while stonewalled > by Management and the Board. ?The investigations would be greatly > helped if > ARIN would respond to the questions that have been asked. ?Most of the > information so far has been gleaned from outside of ARIN. while i don't mind answering questions sent to arin-discuss@ if it'll help the membership determine the character of their trustees, i think that if you want an answer from "the board" or "management" you should direct your inquiries to them by certified letter, perhaps even working through your attorney who might decide to work through ARIN's attorney. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. ? _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. **DISCLAIMER This e-mail message and any files transmitted with it are intended for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed and may contain information that is privileged, proprietary and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender and delete this e-mail message. The contents do not represent the opinion of D&E except to the extent that it relates to their official business. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From brad at belwave.com Thu Jan 3 11:07:13 2008 From: brad at belwave.com (Brad Belton) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 10:07:13 -0600 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: <507F49D619DFA64D87E546F18DE2FA460477E90D@CL-EXCHANGE1.dande.com> References: <00ce01c84e20$0a7ad040$700510ac@GPI.GPINC.NET> <507F49D619DFA64D87E546F18DE2FA460477E90D@CL-EXCHANGE1.dande.com> Message-ID: <01f801c84e22$b3ebd190$1bc374b0$@com> Dave - Gilbert, Then PLEASE stop adding to it! I'm pretty sure Chris figured out how to unsubscribe or filter mail by now... Brad -----Original Message----- From: Lechlitner, David R [mailto:dlechlitner at decommunications.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:00 AM To: Gilbert T. Gutierrez, Jr.; Brad Belton; Chris Gettings; Paul Vixie; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: Henry Valentino Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations I couldn't agree more! Dave Lechlitner IT Operations Manager D&E Communications, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Gilbert T. Gutierrez, Jr. Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:48 AM To: 'Brad Belton'; 'Chris Gettings'; 'Paul Vixie'; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: 'Henry Valentino' Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations I agree with Chris, this thread has moved from informative to rant/white noise and should be moved somewhere else. All people involved in this thread, please kindly move it somewhere else. Regards, Gilbert T. Gutierrez, Jr. Operations Manager Phoenix Internet 2922 W CLARENDON AVE PHOENIX, AZ 85017 Gilbert.G at phoenixinternet.net IM: phxintgilbert http://www.phoenixinternet.net tel: (602)234-0917x106 fax: (602)234-0699 ________________________________________ From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 7:26 AM To: 'Chris Gettings'; 'Paul Vixie'; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: 'Henry Valentino' Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations Yes Chris, it is better that you refrain from whining about bandwidth usage (personal or otherwise) on a public forum when the obvious and simple solution to your problem is to simply unsubscribe.? Save the rest of us from your horrific plight... Webpage?? No need for one as we have clearly demonstrated for the past several years.? /19 allocation?? You need to do some more homework. Fat Pipe?? Is that your router or did you settle on the DLink? Whiny posts like yours deserve to be flamed.? The whiny ones like yourself are always first to say they never "stoop" to reply when in fact they are always the first to hit the send button.? Your problem, issue or dilemma is simply and easily resolved without a public announcement to the rest of us. Handle it Chris. Best, Brad Belton BelWave Communications O:? 817-737-3124 #101 F:? 817-336-7031 From: Chris Gettings [mailto:chris.gettings at videonext.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 1:14 AM To: Brad Belton; Paul Vixie; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: Henry Valentino Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations No Brad, I want to listen to the legitimate dialog on the business of ARIN. I am entitled to that. I have had my modest allocation since 1994. But the guy who keeps complaining about the ARIN management should just sue if he has been harmed -- instead of burying the relevant messages for the whole group amongst his b.s. This deprives everyone of the use of the group. ? I can't believe I even bothered to reply to the flame I almost never do and I apologize. ?I'm stooping to the level of those characters I am complaining about. ?And FYI the the high cost is to my "personal bandwidth" to look at the damned messages, not internet bandwidth. ?I have a fat pipe and plenty of bandwidth for genuine traffic. ?But this topic ?is like spam and is not producing any legitimate traffic for the list and I finally snapped. ?How long have we ARIN list users been subjected to these messages while reading the list in hopes of relevant information? ? Brad is your page at www.belwave.com not compatible with Firefox or Safari? None of the links for "services" or "support" or "references" or "contact us" work. ?But maybe I have to use Internet Explorer only? I see you have a /19 CIDR, same as me. ?How much bandwidth do you have? ?I see the "Network Status" section of your page at www.belwave.com but the source of the page is just static HTML and the green lights that show Belwave.com "Network Status" are just permanently green icons "/greenlight.gif" which are not really connected to any network reporting that I can see. ? I have posted the source of your page below where you are "reporting the status" of your North and South Fiber Routes. ?(I was able to find this with the "view source" command in my browsers when nothing I clicked on went anywhere. I was amazed that my browser could do this, but it is cool software.)
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Nort h ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Fibe r ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Rout e

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Sout h ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Fibe r ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Rout e

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? I think the problem is that "greenlight.gif" has to actually connect to something or it just sits there green all the time no matter what the www.belwave.com network is connected to. It seems that people who went there thinking they could check the status of belwave.com are led to believe the status is just fine, all green - when actually the greenlight.gif means nothing at all. ?That seems disingenuous to me or maybe I just don't understand how the html stuff works. I hate to put such a fine point on it for you Brad but those guys really should take their dispute elsewhere and I am right to complain about it. Thanks, and now I am sorry that everyone on the list had to listen to me rant, too. ?I feel better though, just not productive. Best, Christopher Gettings Chairman VideoNEXT 703.489.6781 ?(mobile) 703.657.1204 ?(direct) 703-378-7892 ?(fax) www.videoNext.com 888.876.SAFE (24x7 Support) chris.gettings at videonext.com -- On 1/2/08 11:51 PM, "Brad Belton" wrote: Chris, ? With all due respect (if deserving) I suggest you unsubscribe if the few emails generated by this discussion group is taxing your available bandwidth. ? Best, ? ? ? Brad Belton BelWave Communications O: ?817-737-3124 #101 F: ?817-336-7031 ? ? ? From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chris Gettings Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 10:20 PM To: Paul Vixie; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: Henry Valentino Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations I think you folks have lost it. ?You should just be suing each other. ?And if there was some grounds (and you were real, mature business people) your lawyers you would never let you communicate this way anyway. ?Your incessant messages are not directed to the purported purpose of this list. ?Get another one instead. ?I subscribed because I simply wanted to understand and monitor what was going on with my ARIN allocation and IP addresses. Ah! Perhaps you are trying to drive the rest of us away as part of the conspiracy...and what is that "answer under separate cover" nonsense? ?That's a smoking gun for sure.... Clearly, you are ridiculous nimrods for wasting so much of everyone's bandwidth with your drivel. ?You should be censored by the moderators. Chris Gettings On 1/2/08 10:58 PM, "Paul Vixie" wrote: > > furthermore, if the employment of former MAPS employees after > > leaving MAPS ought to reflect on the founders of MAPS somehow, then > > shouldn't you also do an exhaustive search to find out where every > > one of them wound up? ?(and also for every other company founded by > > any ARIN board > > member?) ?(or any company where an ARIN board member was an > > executive?) > > As the managing director of MAPS, you were responsible for training > and indoctrinating these people. there were no indoctrinations. ?my biggest responsibility was setting policy and my second biggest was making payroll happen. ?while i hold responsibility for everything done by a MAPS employee, i don't have any control (nor would i want it) of what folks do after they leave my employ. ?perhaps MAPS was not the kind of company you thought it was, or perhaps the world is not the kind of place you thought it was. > It wasn't just one bad apple; It was two. for all i know, scott richter hired peter and kelly with the challenge of "please help me run a more responsible organization". ?i have no knowledge, but it sounds like you don't either, so maybe you should ask peter and kelly? > Did you profit from Whitehat.com? i'll answer that under separate cover. > > i find the quality of the investigations so far deplorably low. > > So far, I must agree. It is quite difficult to investigate while stonewalled > by Management and the Board. ?The investigations would be greatly > helped if > ARIN would respond to the questions that have been asked. ?Most of the > information so far has been gleaned from outside of ARIN. while i don't mind answering questions sent to arin-discuss@ if it'll help the membership determine the character of their trustees, i think that if you want an answer from "the board" or "management" you should direct your inquiries to them by certified letter, perhaps even working through your attorney who might decide to work through ARIN's attorney. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. ? _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. **DISCLAIMER This e-mail message and any files transmitted with it are intended for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed and may contain information that is privileged, proprietary and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender and delete this e-mail message. The contents do not represent the opinion of D&E except to the extent that it relates to their official business. From jcalvert at cyrusone.com Thu Jan 3 11:10:34 2008 From: jcalvert at cyrusone.com (Jeff Calvert) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 10:10:34 -0600 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: References: <477AF417.3020100@impulse.net> Message-ID: <10BF21D6EDBD6D4E8EC00F8CFE5EA0C8623096@hou-exchange.internal.cyrusone.com> > Board member performance is the failure to obtain a legal opinion on the > Legacy RSA and the scheme to threaten Legacies with denial of services > unless they transferred rights to ARIN through the Legacy RSA. And Dean gets back to his real complaint. This entire thread is a red herring. Dean doesn't care about 10 year old lawsuits, NANOG attendance, marketing budgets, or recall elections. Dean wants to the Legacy IP allocation policy to remain unchanged, and he will continue to harass the ARIN board until he gets his way. Jeff Calvert Network Administrator E: jcalvert at cyrusone.com W: www.cyrusone.com ? From Mike at netwright.net Thu Jan 3 11:22:02 2008 From: Mike at netwright.net (Mike Lieberman) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 09:22:02 -0700 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: <01ca01c84e14$8b9d3f70$a2d7be50$@com> References: <018d01c84dc4$5e073ac0$1a15b040$@com> <01ca01c84e14$8b9d3f70$a2d7be50$@com> Message-ID: <04bb01c84e24$c60366c0$520a3440$@net> Fellow members, Mr. Vixie and all involved with this thread: As just another member, who claims no special position, rights or claim on your attention, I do, as a recipient of this thread observe the following: There are those of us (and there are many) who have been familiar - if from afar - with Paul Vixie's name, reputation and abilities for two decades. Mr. Vixie does not know me and owes me nothing. However, gratuitous savaging of a high profile person such as Paul Vixie in this manner is tasteless and demeaning both to us as an organization and to those who participate. Past restraining orders and lawsuits tell me nothing in relation to matters at hand, and if they do this is not the place where such information is useful. If there are issues that relate to who should recuse themselves from voting and the need for rules related to that, great, let's have that conversation outside of the heat of name calling. If there is an issue of improper use of staff, improper use of ARIN funds for travel, and other such matters, the ARIN board needs to either conduct an inquiry into the matter or lay out the actual facts related to complaint in a public place on the ARIN website. If there is a charge that members of the board are engaged in illegal or inappropriate activity - then that charge should be made to the board itself. If the board does not respond, and if the matters do not rise to the level of illegal, then I suggest that the complaining member should wait for the coming ARIN meeting in Denver as such issues are properly best addressed in a business meeting. If the matter is one of legality, take it to the courts. Arguing here is meaningless in that case. I learned years ago that not all ARIN members will ever agree on anything. I do not assume that there isn't some merit - somewhere - within the complaint. However, if the purpose of the posting is to educate and elucidate - it has failed. It looks like mud-slinging from my vantage point. If the real reason for the complaint is because of a desire to protect IP allocation made out of the swamp, (hey I got one of those allocations for my old company years ago) then this mud-slinging is simply sad and pitiful Respectfully, Mike Lieberman Net Wright LLC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mhalligan at bitpusher.com Thu Jan 3 11:29:05 2008 From: mhalligan at bitpusher.com (Michael T. Halligan) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 08:29:05 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: <00ce01c84e20$0a7ad040$700510ac@GPI.GPINC.NET> References: <018d01c84dc4$5e073ac0$1a15b040$@com> <01ca01c84e14$8b9d3f70$a2d7be50$@com> <00ce01c84e20$0a7ad040$700510ac@GPI.GPINC.NET> Message-ID: <3BFFEB75-5B26-4C39-89CB-431B606F106C@bitpusher.com> Agreed wholeheartedly. Let Mr. Anderson's lawyers handle his grievances against ARIN. This forum is an inappropriate venue. On Jan 3, 2008, at 7:48 AM, Gilbert T. Gutierrez, Jr. wrote: > I agree with Chris, this thread has moved from informative to rant/ > white > noise and should be moved somewhere else. > > All people involved in this thread, please kindly move it somewhere > else. > > Regards, > > Gilbert T. Gutierrez, Jr. > Operations Manager > Phoenix Internet > 2922 W CLARENDON AVE > PHOENIX, AZ 85017 > Gilbert.G at phoenixinternet.net > IM: phxintgilbert > http://www.phoenixinternet.net > tel: (602)234-0917x106 > fax: (602)234-0699 > > ________________________________________ > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > ] > On Behalf Of Brad Belton > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 7:26 AM > To: 'Chris Gettings'; 'Paul Vixie'; arin-discuss at arin.net > Cc: 'Henry Valentino' > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations > > Yes Chris, it is better that you refrain from whining about > bandwidth usage > (personal or otherwise) on a public forum when the obvious and simple > solution to your problem is to simply unsubscribe. Save the rest of > us from > your horrific plight? > > Webpage? No need for one as we have clearly demonstrated for the past > several years. > > /19 allocation? You need to do some more homework. > > Fat Pipe? Is that your router or did you settle on the DLink? > > Whiny posts like yours deserve to be flamed. The whiny ones like > yourself > are always first to say they never ?stoop? to reply when in fact > they are > always the first to hit the send button. Your problem, issue or > dilemma is > simply and easily resolved without a public announcement to the rest > of us. > Handle it Chris. > > Best, > > > > > Brad Belton > BelWave Communications > O: 817-737-3124 #101 > F: 817-336-7031 > > > > > > From: Chris Gettings [mailto:chris.gettings at videonext.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 1:14 AM > To: Brad Belton; Paul Vixie; arin-discuss at arin.net > Cc: Henry Valentino > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations > > No Brad, I want to listen to the legitimate dialog on the business > of ARIN. > I am entitled to that. I have had my modest allocation since 1994. > But the > guy who keeps complaining about the ARIN management should just sue > if he > has been harmed -- instead of burying the relevant messages for the > whole > group amongst his b.s. This deprives everyone of the use of the group. > > I can?t believe I even bothered to reply to the flame I almost never > do and > I apologize. I?m stooping to the level of those characters I am > complaining > about. And FYI the the high cost is to my ?personal bandwidth? to > look at > the damned messages, not internet bandwidth. I have a fat pipe and > plenty > of bandwidth for genuine traffic. But this topic is like spam and > is not > producing any legitimate traffic for the list and I finally > snapped. How > long have we ARIN list users been subjected to these messages while > reading > the list in hopes of relevant information? > > Brad is your page at www.belwave.com not compatible with Firefox or > Safari? > None of the links for ?services? or ?support? or ?references? or > ?contact > us? work. But maybe I have to use Internet Explorer only? > I see you have a /19 CIDR, same as me. How much bandwidth do you > have? I > see the ?Network Status? section of your page at www.belwave.com but > the > source of the page is just static HTML and the green lights that show > Belwave.com ?Network Status? are just permanently green icons > ?/greenlight.gif? which are not really connected to any network > reporting > that I can see. > > I have posted the source of your page below where you are ?reporting > the > status? of your North and South Fiber Routes. (I was able to find > this with > the ?view source? command in my browsers when nothing I clicked on > went > anywhere. I was amazed that my browser could do this, but it is cool > software.) > >
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Nort h ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Fibe r ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Rout e

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Sout h ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Fibe r ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Rout e

id="table40"> > > > > < > td > width="33" align="center"> > < > img > border="0" src="images/greenlight.gif" width="25" height="25"> > < > td > align="left"> > < > p > align="center"> > < > fon > t size="1"> > Nort > h > Fibe > r > Rout > e > > > > > > < > td > width="33" align="center"> > < > img > border="0" src="images/greenlight.gif" width="25" height="25"> > < > td > align="left"> > < > p > align="center"> > < > fon > t size="1"> > Sout > h > Fibe > r > Rout > e > > > > > > > I think the problem is that ?greenlight.gif? has to actually connect > to > something or it just sits there green all the time no matter what the > www.belwave.com network is connected to. It seems that people who > went there > thinking they could check the status of belwave.com are led to > believe the > status is just fine, all green ? when actually the greenlight.gif > means > nothing at all. That seems disingenuous to me or maybe I just don?t > understand how the html stuff works. > > I hate to put such a fine point on it for you Brad but those guys > really > should take their dispute elsewhere and I am right to complain about > it. > Thanks, and now I am sorry that everyone on the list had to listen > to me > rant, too. I feel better though, just not productive. > > Best, > > > Christopher Gettings > Chairman > VideoNEXT > 703.489.6781 (mobile) > 703.657.1204 (direct) > 703-378-7892 (fax) > www.videoNext.com > 888.876.SAFE (24x7 Support) > chris.gettings at videonext.com > -- > > > > > On 1/2/08 11:51 PM, "Brad Belton" wrote: > Chris, > > With all due respect (if deserving) I suggest you unsubscribe if the > few > emails generated by this discussion group is taxing your available > bandwidth. > > Best, > > > > Brad Belton > BelWave Communications > O: 817-737-3124 #101 > F: 817-336-7031 > > > > > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > ] > On Behalf Of Chris Gettings > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 10:20 PM > To: Paul Vixie; arin-discuss at arin.net > Cc: Henry Valentino > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations > > I think you folks have lost it. You should just be suing each > other. And > if there was some grounds (and you were real, mature business > people) your > lawyers you would never let you communicate this way anyway. Your > incessant > messages are not directed to the purported purpose of this list. Get > another one instead. I subscribed because I simply wanted to > understand and > monitor what was going on with my ARIN allocation and IP addresses. > > Ah! Perhaps you are trying to drive the rest of us away as part of the > conspiracy...and what is that ?answer under separate cover? nonsense? > That?s a smoking gun for sure.... > > Clearly, you are ridiculous nimrods for wasting so much of everyone?s > bandwidth with your drivel. You should be censored by the moderators. > > Chris Gettings > > On 1/2/08 10:58 PM, "Paul Vixie" wrote: >>> furthermore, if the employment of former MAPS employees after >>> leaving >>> MAPS ought to reflect on the founders of MAPS somehow, then >>> shouldn't >>> you also do an exhaustive search to find out where every one of them >>> wound up? (and also for every other company founded by any ARIN >>> board >>> member?) (or any company where an ARIN board member was an >>> executive?) >> >> As the managing director of MAPS, you were responsible for training >> and >> indoctrinating these people. > > there were no indoctrinations. my biggest responsibility was > setting policy > and my second biggest was making payroll happen. while i hold > responsibility > for everything done by a MAPS employee, i don't have any control > (nor would > i > want it) of what folks do after they leave my employ. perhaps MAPS > was not > the kind of company you thought it was, or perhaps the world is not > the kind > of place you thought it was. > >> It wasn't just one bad apple; It was two. > > for all i know, scott richter hired peter and kelly with the > challenge of > "please help me run a more responsible organization". i have no > knowledge, > but it sounds like you don't either, so maybe you should ask peter and > kelly? > >> Did you profit from Whitehat.com? > > i'll answer that under separate cover. > >>> i find the quality of the investigations so far deplorably low. >> >> So far, I must agree. It is quite difficult to investigate while > stonewalled >> by Management and the Board. The investigations would be greatly >> helped > if >> ARIN would respond to the questions that have been asked. Most of >> the >> information so far has been gleaned from outside of ARIN. > > while i don't mind answering questions sent to arin-discuss@ if > it'll help > the membership determine the character of their trustees, i think > that if > you > want an answer from "the board" or "management" you should direct your > inquiries to them by certified letter, perhaps even working through > your > attorney who might decide to work through ARIN's attorney. > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Discussion > Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net > if you > experience any issues. > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the > ARIN Discussion > Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net > if you experience any issues. Michael T. Halligan ------------------------ Chief Technology Officer BitPusher, LLC http://www.bitpusher.com/ From drechsau at iphouse.net Thu Jan 3 11:39:42 2008 From: drechsau at iphouse.net (Mike Horwath) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 10:39:42 -0600 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: <42450.1199333037@sa.vix.com> References: <42450.1199333037@sa.vix.com> Message-ID: <20080103163942.GB43783@iphouse.net> On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 04:03:57AM +0000, Paul Vixie wrote: > here's the spam chapter in nroff source code. Hahaha Sorry, I enjoyed the levity this brought me... Thanks, Paul, for your maybe-unintended-laughter you created. -- Mike Horwath drechsau at iphouse.net ipHouse - Welcome home! From chad at onr.com Thu Jan 3 11:51:07 2008 From: chad at onr.com (Chad Kissinger) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 10:51:07 -0600 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: <10BF21D6EDBD6D4E8EC00F8CFE5EA0C8623096@hou-exchange.internal.cyrusone.com> Message-ID: <6FE708CF9877BB4E99CC46ABC13D150F0363FAAB@exchange2003.staff.onr.com> I agree with Jeff. Dean's got an axe to grind and obviously no bit of slime is too insignificant, nor is any innuendo too flimsy for him to throw into the fray. He's lost all credibility with me. I've had too many customers who owed me money that sound just like him squawking about any crazy thing they can think of to avoid the real issue... that they owe me money. Dean is doing the same thing... hoping that everyone will be either worn out or intimidated by his threats. I say, put up or shut up. Sue, or make a motion to change something under the governing rules of ARIN. My opinion on the real issue remains: 1. ARIN should collect as little money as possible to accomplish its core mission. 2. The collections should be spread out evenly amongst the people who derive benefit from ARIN's service... i.e. everyone who uses an IP address under ARIN's "authority". Legacy holders included. Onramp Access chad kissinger | president | onramp access, inc. p: 512.322.9200 | f: 512.476.2878 | www.onr.com your internet operations | built | deployed | managed -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Calvert Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:11 AM To: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations > Board member performance is the failure to obtain a legal opinion on the > Legacy RSA and the scheme to threaten Legacies with denial of services > unless they transferred rights to ARIN through the Legacy RSA. And Dean gets back to his real complaint. This entire thread is a red herring. Dean doesn't care about 10 year old lawsuits, NANOG attendance, marketing budgets, or recall elections. Dean wants to the Legacy IP allocation policy to remain unchanged, and he will continue to harass the ARIN board until he gets his way. Jeff Calvert Network Administrator E: jcalvert at cyrusone.com W: www.cyrusone.com ? _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From Todd.Christell at cityutilities.net Fri Jan 4 02:01:48 2008 From: Todd.Christell at cityutilities.net (Todd.Christell at cityutilities.net) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 01:01:48 -0600 Subject: [arin-discuss] Todd Christell/Admin/CUoS is out of the office. Message-ID: I will be out of the office starting 01/03/2008 and will not return until 01/16/2008. I will respond to your message when I return. If you have network issues please call Calvin Porter at 8886 or Ben Bridges at 8882. From jerry.dowell at associates.dhs.gov Fri Jan 4 12:13:17 2008 From: jerry.dowell at associates.dhs.gov (DOWELL, JERRY (CTR)) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:13:17 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: <507F49D619DFA64D87E546F18DE2FA460477E90D@CL-EXCHANGE1.dande.com> References: <00ce01c84e20$0a7ad040$700510ac@GPI.GPINC.NET> <507F49D619DFA64D87E546F18DE2FA460477E90D@CL-EXCHANGE1.dande.com> Message-ID: <0F029B113FFDA94EB962D8FA54B8404D0744FF@NWG-EXMB-A-016.ad.cbp.dhs.gov> Enough is enough!!!!!! -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Lechlitner, David R Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 11:00 AM To: Gilbert T. Gutierrez, Jr.; Brad Belton; Chris Gettings; Paul Vixie; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: Henry Valentino Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations I couldn't agree more! Dave Lechlitner IT Operations Manager D&E Communications, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Gilbert T. Gutierrez, Jr. Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:48 AM To: 'Brad Belton'; 'Chris Gettings'; 'Paul Vixie'; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: 'Henry Valentino' Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations I agree with Chris, this thread has moved from informative to rant/white noise and should be moved somewhere else. All people involved in this thread, please kindly move it somewhere else. Regards, Gilbert T. Gutierrez, Jr. Operations Manager Phoenix Internet 2922 W CLARENDON AVE PHOENIX, AZ 85017 Gilbert.G at phoenixinternet.net IM: phxintgilbert http://www.phoenixinternet.net tel: (602)234-0917x106 fax: (602)234-0699 ________________________________________ From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 7:26 AM To: 'Chris Gettings'; 'Paul Vixie'; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: 'Henry Valentino' Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations Yes Chris, it is better that you refrain from whining about bandwidth usage (personal or otherwise) on a public forum when the obvious and simple solution to your problem is to simply unsubscribe.? Save the rest of us from your horrific plight... Webpage?? No need for one as we have clearly demonstrated for the past several years.? /19 allocation?? You need to do some more homework. Fat Pipe?? Is that your router or did you settle on the DLink? Whiny posts like yours deserve to be flamed.? The whiny ones like yourself are always first to say they never "stoop" to reply when in fact they are always the first to hit the send button.? Your problem, issue or dilemma is simply and easily resolved without a public announcement to the rest of us. Handle it Chris. Best, Brad Belton BelWave Communications O:? 817-737-3124 #101 F:? 817-336-7031 From: Chris Gettings [mailto:chris.gettings at videonext.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 1:14 AM To: Brad Belton; Paul Vixie; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: Henry Valentino Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations No Brad, I want to listen to the legitimate dialog on the business of ARIN. I am entitled to that. I have had my modest allocation since 1994. But the guy who keeps complaining about the ARIN management should just sue if he has been harmed -- instead of burying the relevant messages for the whole group amongst his b.s. This deprives everyone of the use of the group. ? I can't believe I even bothered to reply to the flame I almost never do and I apologize. ?I'm stooping to the level of those characters I am complaining about. ?And FYI the the high cost is to my "personal bandwidth" to look at the damned messages, not internet bandwidth. ?I have a fat pipe and plenty of bandwidth for genuine traffic. ?But this topic ?is like spam and is not producing any legitimate traffic for the list and I finally snapped. ?How long have we ARIN list users been subjected to these messages while reading the list in hopes of relevant information? ? Brad is your page at www.belwave.com not compatible with Firefox or Safari? None of the links for "services" or "support" or "references" or "contact us" work. ?But maybe I have to use Internet Explorer only? I see you have a /19 CIDR, same as me. ?How much bandwidth do you have? ?I see the "Network Status" section of your page at www.belwave.com but the source of the page is just static HTML and the green lights that show Belwave.com "Network Status" are just permanently green icons "/greenlight.gif" which are not really connected to any network reporting that I can see. ? I have posted the source of your page below where you are "reporting the status" of your North and South Fiber Routes. ?(I was able to find this with the "view source" command in my browsers when nothing I clicked on went anywhere. I was amazed that my browser could do this, but it is cool software.)
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? I think the problem is that "greenlight.gif" has to actually connect to something or it just sits there green all the time no matter what the www.belwave.com network is connected to. It seems that people who went there thinking they could check the status of belwave.com are led to believe the status is just fine, all green - when actually the greenlight.gif means nothing at all. ?That seems disingenuous to me or maybe I just don't understand how the html stuff works. I hate to put such a fine point on it for you Brad but those guys really should take their dispute elsewhere and I am right to complain about it. Thanks, and now I am sorry that everyone on the list had to listen to me rant, too. ?I feel better though, just not productive. Best, Christopher Gettings Chairman VideoNEXT 703.489.6781 ?(mobile) 703.657.1204 ?(direct) 703-378-7892 ?(fax) www.videoNext.com 888.876.SAFE (24x7 Support) chris.gettings at videonext.com -- On 1/2/08 11:51 PM, "Brad Belton" wrote: Chris, ? With all due respect (if deserving) I suggest you unsubscribe if the few emails generated by this discussion group is taxing your available bandwidth. ? Best, ? ? ? Brad Belton BelWave Communications O: ?817-737-3124 #101 F: ?817-336-7031 ? ? ? From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chris Gettings Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 10:20 PM To: Paul Vixie; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: Henry Valentino Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations I think you folks have lost it. ?You should just be suing each other. ?And if there was some grounds (and you were real, mature business people) your lawyers you would never let you communicate this way anyway. ?Your incessant messages are not directed to the purported purpose of this list. ?Get another one instead. ?I subscribed because I simply wanted to understand and monitor what was going on with my ARIN allocation and IP addresses. Ah! Perhaps you are trying to drive the rest of us away as part of the conspiracy...and what is that "answer under separate cover" nonsense? ?That's a smoking gun for sure.... Clearly, you are ridiculous nimrods for wasting so much of everyone's bandwidth with your drivel. ?You should be censored by the moderators. Chris Gettings On 1/2/08 10:58 PM, "Paul Vixie" wrote: > > furthermore, if the employment of former MAPS employees after > > leaving MAPS ought to reflect on the founders of MAPS somehow, then > > shouldn't you also do an exhaustive search to find out where every > > one of them wound up? ?(and also for every other company founded by > > any ARIN board > > member?) ?(or any company where an ARIN board member was an > > executive?) > > As the managing director of MAPS, you were responsible for training > and indoctrinating these people. there were no indoctrinations. ?my biggest responsibility was setting policy and my second biggest was making payroll happen. ?while i hold responsibility for everything done by a MAPS employee, i don't have any control (nor would i want it) of what folks do after they leave my employ. ?perhaps MAPS was not the kind of company you thought it was, or perhaps the world is not the kind of place you thought it was. > It wasn't just one bad apple; It was two. for all i know, scott richter hired peter and kelly with the challenge of "please help me run a more responsible organization". ?i have no knowledge, but it sounds like you don't either, so maybe you should ask peter and kelly? > Did you profit from Whitehat.com? i'll answer that under separate cover. > > i find the quality of the investigations so far deplorably low. > > So far, I must agree. It is quite difficult to investigate while stonewalled > by Management and the Board. ?The investigations would be greatly > helped if > ARIN would respond to the questions that have been asked. ?Most of the > information so far has been gleaned from outside of ARIN. while i don't mind answering questions sent to arin-discuss@ if it'll help the membership determine the character of their trustees, i think that if you want an answer from "the board" or "management" you should direct your inquiries to them by certified letter, perhaps even working through your attorney who might decide to work through ARIN's attorney. _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. ? _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. **DISCLAIMER This e-mail message and any files transmitted with it are intended for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed and may contain information that is privileged, proprietary and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. 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From aaron at wholesaleinternet.com Fri Jan 4 12:35:35 2008 From: aaron at wholesaleinternet.com (Aaron Wendel) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 11:35:35 -0600 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: <0F029B113FFDA94EB962D8FA54B8404D0744FF@NWG-EXMB-A-016.ad.cbp.dhs.gov> References: <00ce01c84e20$0a7ad040$700510ac@GPI.GPINC.NET> <507F49D619DFA64D87E546F18DE2FA460477E90D@CL-EXCHANGE1.dande.com> <0F029B113FFDA94EB962D8FA54B8404D0744FF@NWG-EXMB-A-016.ad.cbp.dhs.gov> Message-ID: <02ed01c84ef8$36a09a50$a3e1cef0$@com> Jumping into the fray..... I think discussion related to the misconduct of ARIN board members or staff is appropriate for the list, however, my issue with this particular thread is that it's simply not going anywhere. It's turned into a constant rant back and forth. If either side has a resolution they'd like to suggest then I'm all for it. Until then I'll continue to hit the delete button. Aaron Wendel Founder/Chief Technical Officer Wholesale Internet, Inc. 1102 Grand Blvd. Suite 905 Kansas City, MO 64106 -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of DOWELL, JERRY (CTR) Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 11:13 AM To: Lechlitner, David R; Gilbert T. Gutierrez, Jr.; Brad Belton; Chris Gettings; Paul Vixie; arin-discuss at arin.net Cc: Henry Valentino Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations Enough is enough!!!!!! From mstotyn at enmax.com Fri Jan 4 18:48:34 2008 From: mstotyn at enmax.com (Stotyn, Mel) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 16:48:34 -0700 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: <6FE708CF9877BB4E99CC46ABC13D150F0363FAAB@exchange2003.staff.onr.com> References: <10BF21D6EDBD6D4E8EC00F8CFE5EA0C8623096@hou-exchange.internal.cyrusone.com> <6FE708CF9877BB4E99CC46ABC13D150F0363FAAB@exchange2003.staff.onr.com> Message-ID: <2A6EBA7B37001A46BD4DB830398EC81B09E09D@MAIL04.enmax.com> I disagree with both Jeff and Chad regarding their criticism of Dean and the appropriateness of his discussion. Jeff: I don't think that you can realistically claim to know what Dean does or doesn't care about nor what he really wants. I interpret differently than you. To me, Dean appears to have more than one concern, not just the legacy issue but also the propriety of ARIN's finances and the oversight provided by it's board members. It does seem possible to me that Dean could have more than one concern at a time. For you to clip out one of several of Dean's examples of possible impropriety, and them claim to know that the phrase "Legacy RSA" within that clip is really his only concern, is both unfair and perhaps a little inflammatory. Chad: I think that Dean's requests for information from ARIN, to verify his concerns, is appropriate and not innuendo. The lack of cogent responses has been the biggest problem for me while "listening in". Many of the responses, from ARIN board members, to his queries have been obfuscations, and his attempts to get clear answers has caused increased traffic in the discussion, but the root problem is lack of clear, informative answers. Both: I think that this current incarnation of the discussion is generally both relevant and appropriate for the ARIN-DISCUSS mailing list if we are to have enough relevant information to apply to a vote, if that finally comes. To be asked to just vote on a recall or to vote for/against someone during a normal election without access to any information prior to that event, is a waste of any democratic responsibility. The biggest waste of my personal bandwidth is from those who just call for shutting down the discussion or those who seem to just enjoy throwing gasoline on flames. I don't think that Dean is the flamer, nor, lately, the board members who have responded. I would like to see more clear, concise, reasoned responses to Dean's questions. Then, I think, the thread would seem more worth the time to read it. Mel Stotyn Senior Operations Specialist ENMAX Envision Inc. mailto:mstotyn at enmax.com Phone: 403 514-3443 -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chad Kissinger Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 9:51 AM To: Jeff Calvert; arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations I agree with Jeff. Dean's got an axe to grind and obviously no bit of slime is too insignificant, nor is any innuendo too flimsy for him to throw into the fray. He's lost all credibility with me. I've had too many customers who owed me money that sound just like him squawking about any crazy thing they can think of to avoid the real issue... that they owe me money. Dean is doing the same thing... hoping that everyone will be either worn out or intimidated by his threats. I say, put up or shut up. Sue, or make a motion to change something under the governing rules of ARIN. My opinion on the real issue remains: 1. ARIN should collect as little money as possible to accomplish its core mission. 2. The collections should be spread out evenly amongst the people who derive benefit from ARIN's service... i.e. everyone who uses an IP address under ARIN's "authority". Legacy holders included. Onramp Access chad kissinger | president | onramp access, inc. p: 512.322.9200 | f: 512.476.2878 | www.onr.com your internet operations | built | deployed | managed -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Calvert Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:11 AM To: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations > Board member performance is the failure to obtain a legal opinion on > the Legacy RSA and the scheme to threaten Legacies with denial of > services unless they transferred rights to ARIN through the Legacy RSA. And Dean gets back to his real complaint. This entire thread is a red herring. Dean doesn't care about 10 year old lawsuits, NANOG attendance, marketing budgets, or recall elections. Dean wants to the Legacy IP allocation policy to remain unchanged, and he will continue to harass the ARIN board until he gets his way. Jeff Calvert Network Administrator E: jcalvert at cyrusone.com W: www.cyrusone.com ************************************************************************ This e-mail message is intended only for the person(s) named above and may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the person named or have not been authorized by them to access their mail, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail and any attachments without reading, saving, or forwarding. ************************************************************************ From jmaimon at chl.com Sun Jan 6 10:23:23 2008 From: jmaimon at chl.com (Joe Maimon) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 10:23:23 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] /29 limit for ARIN SWIP whois Message-ID: <4780F26B.3000104@chl.com> Hey all, Is there any overriding reason to limit ARIN swip to /29 or bigger? Has there been any discussion on this? Is there any easy way to search the entire ppml archive? Thanks, Joe From michael.dillon at bt.com Sun Jan 6 14:48:17 2008 From: michael.dillon at bt.com (michael.dillon at bt.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 19:48:17 -0000 Subject: [arin-discuss] /29 limit for ARIN SWIP whois In-Reply-To: <4780F26B.3000104@chl.com> References: <4780F26B.3000104@chl.com> Message-ID: > Is there any easy way to search the entire ppml archive? This is not the PPML list, but you can search for every time that SWIP was discussed on PPML by using this search at Google: site:lists.arin.net +ppml swip --Michael Dillon From tedm at ipinc.net Mon Jan 7 13:01:13 2008 From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:01:13 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] /29 limit for ARIN SWIP whois In-Reply-To: <4780F26B.3000104@chl.com> Message-ID: >-----Original Message----- >From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Joe Maimon >Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:23 AM >To: arin-discuss at arin.net >Subject: [arin-discuss] /29 limit for ARIN SWIP whois > > >Hey all, > >Is there any overriding reason to limit ARIN swip to /29 or bigger? > Back when that limit was setup, few were assigning a /32 or /30 to corporations, single IP number assignments invariably were to residential end users. Often, to dialup users. As a result it seemed logical to make a tradeoff between number of total entries in the SWIP database with the speed of searching them, and the need to provide information to the community. Assignment of less than /29 these days is really prompted by IPv4 conservation efforts. IPv6 does not have such restrictions, so it would really be meaningless to allow single IP number SWIPs for IPv6. ARIN has an alternative to it's whois server - allowing the so-called "local numbering authority" (ie: the ISP) the ability to run their own rwhois server in lieu of filing SWIPS. That is what we do, for example. You can put single IP assignments in that, if you want, we do. My belief is that we should be concentrating on making good policy for IPv6, and forget about IPv4. It's going to be gone soon anyway. Since you have an alternative that allows you to list /32's in rwhois, I suggest you use it, rather than trying to get the rest of the world to change. Ted From jrhett at svcolo.com Mon Jan 7 17:33:23 2008 From: jrhett at svcolo.com (Jo Rhett) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:33:23 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] /29 limit for ARIN SWIP whois In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0F2D1C8C-C4DC-43D4-9ED9-75422A6F7EC4@svcolo.com> On Jan 7, 2008, at 10:01 AM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Since you have an alternative that allows you to list /32's in > rwhois, I suggest you use it, rather than trying to get the rest of > the world to change. FWIW, it's also significantly easier to autopopulate an rwhois database from your IP allocation tables, than it is to autogenerate SWIP creations and deletions. -- Jo Rhett senior geek Silicon Valley Colocation Support Phone: 408-400-0550 From tedm at ipinc.net Mon Jan 7 18:14:54 2008 From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:14:54 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] /29 limit for ARIN SWIP whois In-Reply-To: <0F2D1C8C-C4DC-43D4-9ED9-75422A6F7EC4@svcolo.com> Message-ID: >-----Original Message----- >From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Jo Rhett >Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 2:33 PM >To: Joe Maimon >Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net >Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] /29 limit for ARIN SWIP whois > > >On Jan 7, 2008, at 10:01 AM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >> Since you have an alternative that allows you to list /32's in >> rwhois, I suggest you use it, rather than trying to get the rest of >> the world to change. > >FWIW, it's also significantly easier to autopopulate an rwhois >database from your IP allocation tables, than it is to autogenerate >SWIP creations and deletions. > ipplan supposedly has a module or option that will autogenerate SWIPS. I don't know, I've never used it myself. Ted From jmaimon at chl.com Mon Jan 7 21:51:45 2008 From: jmaimon at chl.com (Joe Maimon) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 21:51:45 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] /29 limit for ARIN SWIP whois In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4782E541.7060803@chl.com> Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Joe Maimon >>Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:23 AM >>To: arin-discuss at arin.net >>Subject: [arin-discuss] /29 limit for ARIN SWIP whois >> >> >>Hey all, >> >>Is there any overriding reason to limit ARIN swip to /29 or bigger? >> >> >> > >Back when that limit was setup, few were assigning a /32 or /30 to >corporations, single IP number assignments invariably were to >residential end users. Often, to dialup users. As a result it >seemed logical to make a tradeoff between number of total entries >in the SWIP database with the speed of searching them, and the need >to provide information to the community. > > > I dont really see the tradeoff. >Assignment of less than /29 these days is really prompted by IPv4 >conservation efforts. > > Or by actual use. In either case, you have made the point that SWIP does not fit current needs and use by limiting to /29. >IPv6 does not have such restrictions, so it would really be meaningless >to allow single IP number SWIPs for IPv6. > > There are no /128 assignments? Of course there are. >ARIN has an alternative to it's whois server - allowing the >so-called "local numbering authority" (ie: the ISP) the ability >to run their own rwhois server in lieu of filing SWIPS. That is >what we do, for example. You can put single IP assignments in >that, if you want, we do. > > How does this justify limiting SWIP to /29? If the concern is database object counts, limit swip assignments per allocation, regardless of size. That actually makes sense: "you are too big, run your own rwhois server". >My belief is that we should be concentrating on making good policy >for IPv6, and forget about IPv4. It's going to be gone soon anyway. > It wont be "gone". It may soon be the case that new networks will find adopting ipv6 to be worth the effort. But ipv4 wont be gone for many years yet. In either event, this does not really have any bearing on the SWIP /29 limit. >Since you have an alternative that allows you to list /32's in >rwhois, I suggest you use it, rather than trying to get the rest of >the world to change. > > I can use rwhois, which requires some effort (which I have done in the past) and hosting a server, or I can creatively combine entries into /29 swip entries. Which I also do. Or I can inquire as to the logic of the limit and whether it is at all applicable currently and what could be done to change it. Which I have done. Furthermore, conceivably the changes can be a small as two ASCII characters in one program on one server. While the total changes are likely much higher, its hardly the world. >Ted > > > > From bicknell at ufp.org Mon Jan 7 22:14:04 2008 From: bicknell at ufp.org (Leo Bicknell) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 22:14:04 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] /29 limit for ARIN SWIP whois In-Reply-To: <4780F26B.3000104@chl.com> References: <4780F26B.3000104@chl.com> Message-ID: <20080108031404.GA52362@ussenterprise.ufp.org> In a message written on Sun, Jan 06, 2008 at 10:23:23AM -0500, Joe Maimon wrote: > Is there any overriding reason to limit ARIN swip to /29 or bigger? I will point out (in IPv4): /32 assignment (e.g. dial up, DSL, etc) is by definition 100% utilized. In terms of subnets, which only make sense if you have two more more devices (router + one or more hosts): /31 subnet by definition is 100% used. /30 subnet by definition is 100% used (router, host, network, broadcast). /29 subnet is at minimum 50% used (router, host, network, broadcast). If we further assume this was done because a /30 was not large enough (e.g. people are doing the right thing) there must be at least 5/8's, or 62.5% in use. Also, while the standard may be 80% utilization, which would require 7 of the 8 IP's to be in use; that leaves an interesting corner case where 5/8 and 6/8 can't fit in a /30, but don't meet 80%. Thus it makes sense to count 5/8 and 6/8 as fully utilized, making it all but impossible to have an underutilized /29. Now, one of ARIN's primary uses for the data is to insure assignments were made in accordance with ARIN's rules when someone requests more space. There's no reason to review a /30, /31, or 32, as there's no chance those assignments were under-utilized. -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell at ufp.org - CCIE 3440 PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request at tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jmaimon at chl.com Mon Jan 7 22:43:08 2008 From: jmaimon at chl.com (Joe Maimon) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 22:43:08 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] /29 limit for ARIN SWIP whois In-Reply-To: <20080108031404.GA52362@ussenterprise.ufp.org> References: <4780F26B.3000104@chl.com> <20080108031404.GA52362@ussenterprise.ufp.org> Message-ID: <4782F14C.2090005@chl.com> Leo Bicknell wrote: > In a message written on Sun, Jan 06, 2008 at 10:23:23AM -0500, Joe Maimon wrote: > >>Is there any overriding reason to limit ARIN swip to /29 or bigger? > > > I will point out (in IPv4): > > /32 assignment (e.g. dial up, DSL, etc) is by definition 100% utilized. > > > Now, one of ARIN's primary uses for the data is to insure assignments > were made in accordance with ARIN's rules when someone requests > more space. There's no reason to review a /30, /31, or 32, as > there's no chance those assignments were under-utilized. > So what do you do when you have a large number of /30 or smaller assignments? How do you record proper utilization of your allocation into assignments? If SWIP doesnt meet the need, should it not be (trvially) revised? And for the other utilities (there must be some) available through public whois, the /29 limit is still unjustified. From packetgrrl at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 22:46:10 2008 From: packetgrrl at gmail.com (cja@daydream.com) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 20:46:10 -0700 Subject: [arin-discuss] /29 limit for ARIN SWIP whois In-Reply-To: <4782F14C.2090005@chl.com> References: <4780F26B.3000104@chl.com> <20080108031404.GA52362@ussenterprise.ufp.org> <4782F14C.2090005@chl.com> Message-ID: > So what do you do when you have a large number of /30 or smaller > assignments? How do you record proper utilization of your allocation > into assignments? If SWIP doesnt meet the need, should it not be > (trvially) revised? > > And for the other utilities (there must be some) available through > public whois, the /29 limit is still unjustified. > When I used to do cable address space I used to give ARIN a huge spreadsheet when I applied for more address space. It had how everything was assigned and the utilization of each block. I had to tell them all this info but I didn't have to SWIP /32s. ----Cathy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From plzak at arin.net Tue Jan 8 06:31:06 2008 From: plzak at arin.net (Ray Plzak) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 06:31:06 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] /29 limit for ARIN SWIP whois In-Reply-To: <20080108031404.GA52362@ussenterprise.ufp.org> References: <4780F26B.3000104@chl.com> <20080108031404.GA52362@ussenterprise.ufp.org> Message-ID: This discussion needs to move to the ppml as it concerns a policy and its merits and rationale. Ray > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss- > bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Leo Bicknell > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 10:14 PM > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] /29 limit for ARIN SWIP whois > > In a message written on Sun, Jan 06, 2008 at 10:23:23AM -0500, Joe > Maimon wrote: > > Is there any overriding reason to limit ARIN swip to /29 or bigger? > > I will point out (in IPv4): > > /32 assignment (e.g. dial up, DSL, etc) is by definition 100% utilized. > > In terms of subnets, which only make sense if you have two more more > devices (router + one or more hosts): > > /31 subnet by definition is 100% used. > /30 subnet by definition is 100% used (router, host, network, > broadcast). > /29 subnet is at minimum 50% used (router, host, network, broadcast). > If we further assume this was done because a /30 was not large > enough (e.g. people are doing the right thing) there must be at > least 5/8's, or 62.5% in use. Also, while the standard may be 80% > utilization, which would require 7 of the 8 IP's to be in use; > that leaves an interesting corner case where 5/8 and 6/8 can't > fit in a /30, but don't meet 80%. Thus it makes sense to count > 5/8 and 6/8 as fully utilized, making it all but impossible to > have an underutilized /29. > > Now, one of ARIN's primary uses for the data is to insure assignments > were made in accordance with ARIN's rules when someone requests more > space. There's no reason to review a /30, /31, or 32, as there's no > chance those assignments were under-utilized. > > -- > Leo Bicknell - bicknell at ufp.org - CCIE 3440 > PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/ Read TMBG List - > tmbg-list-request at tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org From tedm at ipinc.net Tue Jan 8 19:10:44 2008 From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 16:10:44 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] /29 limit for ARIN SWIP whois In-Reply-To: <20080108031404.GA52362@ussenterprise.ufp.org> Message-ID: >-----Original Message----- >From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Leo Bicknell >Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 7:14 PM >To: arin-discuss at arin.net >Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] /29 limit for ARIN SWIP whois > > >Now, one of ARIN's primary uses for the data is to insure assignments >were made in accordance with ARIN's rules when someone requests >more space. That may be one of ARIN's primary uses, but it is not the primary use of the rest of the Internet for SWIP data. SWIP is how you find out who's router is misconfigured and causing trouble, and who to knock on the head to get them to stop doing it. Your argument is kind of like arguing that there's no need for license plates on the back of passenger cars, because they can only seat 4 people, that the only vehicles that need license plates are trucks and buses. In short, it's interesting and I found it amusing, but not realistic. Followups to the ppl list, please. Ted From mksmith at adhost.com Fri Jan 18 00:59:06 2008 From: mksmith at adhost.com (Michael Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:59:06 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: <2A6EBA7B37001A46BD4DB830398EC81B09E09D@MAIL04.enmax.com> References: <10BF21D6EDBD6D4E8EC00F8CFE5EA0C8623096@hou-exchange.internal.cyrusone.com> <6FE708CF9877BB4E99CC46ABC13D150F0363FAAB@exchange2003.staff.onr.com> <2A6EBA7B37001A46BD4DB830398EC81B09E09D@MAIL04.enmax.com> Message-ID: Hello Mel: I have to say this one more time. Dean has engaged legal counsel in his complaints to/with ARIN and has prefaced all of his emails to this list with a discovery preamble such that any responses can be used as part of his claims. As such, I don't think any of these discussions are now appropriate for this or any list, regardless of whether they were before. Once you bring in the lawyers, it is up to them to come to terms. Regards, Michael Smith - CISSP, GISP Adhost Internet LLC mksmith at adhost.com On Jan 4, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Stotyn, Mel wrote: > > I disagree with both Jeff and Chad regarding their criticism of Dean > and > the appropriateness of his discussion. > > Jeff: > I don't think that you can realistically claim to know what Dean > does or > doesn't care about nor what he really wants. I interpret differently > than you. To me, Dean appears to have more than one concern, not just > the legacy issue but also the propriety of ARIN's finances and the > oversight provided by it's board members. It does seem possible to me > that Dean could have more than one concern at a time. For you to clip > out one of several of Dean's examples of possible impropriety, and > them > claim to know that the phrase "Legacy RSA" within that clip is really > his only concern, is both unfair and perhaps a little inflammatory. > > Chad: > I think that Dean's requests for information from ARIN, to verify his > concerns, is appropriate and not innuendo. The lack of cogent > responses > has been the biggest problem for me while "listening in". Many of the > responses, from ARIN board members, to his queries have been > obfuscations, and his attempts to get clear answers has caused > increased > traffic in the discussion, but the root problem is lack of clear, > informative answers. > > Both: > I think that this current incarnation of the discussion is generally > both relevant and appropriate for the ARIN-DISCUSS mailing list if we > are to have enough relevant information to apply to a vote, if that > finally comes. To be asked to just vote on a recall or to vote > for/against someone during a normal election without access to any > information prior to that event, is a waste of any democratic > responsibility. > > The biggest waste of my personal bandwidth is from those who just call > for shutting down the discussion or those who seem to just enjoy > throwing gasoline on flames. I don't think that Dean is the flamer, > nor, > lately, the board members who have responded. I would like to see more > clear, concise, reasoned responses to Dean's questions. Then, I think, > the thread would seem more worth the time to read it. > > Mel Stotyn > Senior Operations Specialist > ENMAX Envision Inc. > mailto:mstotyn at enmax.com > Phone: 403 514-3443 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chad Kissinger > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 9:51 AM > To: Jeff Calvert; arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations > > > > I agree with Jeff. Dean's got an axe to grind and obviously no bit of > slime is too insignificant, nor is any innuendo too flimsy for him to > throw into the fray. He's lost all credibility with me. I've had too > many customers who owed me money that sound just like him squawking > about any crazy thing they can think of to avoid the real issue... > that > they owe me money. Dean is doing the same thing... hoping that > everyone will be either worn out or intimidated by his threats. I > say, > put up or shut up. Sue, or make a motion to change something under > the > governing rules of ARIN. > > My opinion on the real issue remains: > > 1. ARIN should collect as little money as possible to accomplish its > core mission. > 2. The collections should be spread out evenly amongst the people who > derive benefit from ARIN's service... i.e. everyone who uses an IP > address under ARIN's "authority". Legacy holders included. > > > Onramp Access > chad kissinger | president | onramp access, inc. > p: 512.322.9200 | f: 512.476.2878 | www.onr.com your internet > operations | built | deployed | managed > > -----Original Message----- > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Calvert > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:11 AM > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations > > > >> Board member performance is the failure to obtain a legal opinion on >> the Legacy RSA and the scheme to threaten Legacies with denial of >> services unless they transferred rights to ARIN through the Legacy > RSA. > > And Dean gets back to his real complaint. This entire thread is a red > herring. Dean doesn't care about 10 year old lawsuits, NANOG > attendance, marketing budgets, or recall elections. Dean wants to the > Legacy IP allocation policy to remain unchanged, and he will > continue to > harass the ARIN board until he gets his way. > > > Jeff Calvert > Network Administrator > > E: jcalvert at cyrusone.com > W: www.cyrusone.com > > ************************************************************************ > This e-mail message is intended only for the person(s) named above and > may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the > person named or have not been authorized by them to access their mail, > please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail and any > attachments without reading, saving, or forwarding. > ************************************************************************ > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the > ARIN Discussion > Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net > if you experience any issues. From dean at av8.com Fri Jan 18 12:20:50 2008 From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:20:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [ARIN agrees that discussion to recall Board members, to conduct investigations of ARIN expenditures, and to stop certain ARIN expenditures does not violate the ARIN AUP.] I have to say this one more time: Michael Smith does not have anything to do with my legal counsel, nor anything to do with what topics or terms my counsel has approved. As far as I know, Mr. Smith does not have anything to do with ARIN's legal counsel. The discussion of the topics I posted on December 28th are indeed appropriate. The preface to my message is not a "discovery preamble". Indeed there is no such term as "discovery preamble" in Black's Law Dictionary. This term is apparently a fabrication by Mr. Smith to embellish his argument. The preface to my message reflects the agreement on appropriate topics under the AUP. It is clear that some people want to stop or impede these investigations. ARIN itself is stonewalling and has not provided sufficient responses to reasonable questions about its activities. For some questions, ARIN has not responded at all. Board Members (e.g. Scott Bradner) have refused to respond to direct questions about whether they have a conflict of interest. However, Mr. Smith's attempt to influence and silence these discussions by baseless claims, is, well, baseless. --Dean On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Michael Smith wrote: > Hello Mel: > > I have to say this one more time. Dean has engaged legal counsel in > his complaints to/with ARIN and has prefaced all of his emails to this > list with a discovery preamble such that any responses can be used as > part of his claims. As such, I don't think any of these discussions > are now appropriate for this or any list, regardless of whether they > were before. Once you bring in the lawyers, it is up to them to come > to terms. > > Regards, > > Michael Smith - CISSP, GISP > Adhost Internet LLC > mksmith at adhost.com > > > On Jan 4, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Stotyn, Mel wrote: > > > > > I disagree with both Jeff and Chad regarding their criticism of Dean > > and > > the appropriateness of his discussion. > > > > Jeff: > > I don't think that you can realistically claim to know what Dean > > does or > > doesn't care about nor what he really wants. I interpret differently > > than you. To me, Dean appears to have more than one concern, not just > > the legacy issue but also the propriety of ARIN's finances and the > > oversight provided by it's board members. It does seem possible to me > > that Dean could have more than one concern at a time. For you to clip > > out one of several of Dean's examples of possible impropriety, and > > them > > claim to know that the phrase "Legacy RSA" within that clip is really > > his only concern, is both unfair and perhaps a little inflammatory. > > > > Chad: > > I think that Dean's requests for information from ARIN, to verify his > > concerns, is appropriate and not innuendo. The lack of cogent > > responses > > has been the biggest problem for me while "listening in". Many of the > > responses, from ARIN board members, to his queries have been > > obfuscations, and his attempts to get clear answers has caused > > increased > > traffic in the discussion, but the root problem is lack of clear, > > informative answers. > > > > Both: > > I think that this current incarnation of the discussion is generally > > both relevant and appropriate for the ARIN-DISCUSS mailing list if we > > are to have enough relevant information to apply to a vote, if that > > finally comes. To be asked to just vote on a recall or to vote > > for/against someone during a normal election without access to any > > information prior to that event, is a waste of any democratic > > responsibility. > > > > The biggest waste of my personal bandwidth is from those who just call > > for shutting down the discussion or those who seem to just enjoy > > throwing gasoline on flames. I don't think that Dean is the flamer, > > nor, > > lately, the board members who have responded. I would like to see more > > clear, concise, reasoned responses to Dean's questions. Then, I think, > > the thread would seem more worth the time to read it. > > > > Mel Stotyn > > Senior Operations Specialist > > ENMAX Envision Inc. > > mailto:mstotyn at enmax.com > > Phone: 403 514-3443 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chad Kissinger > > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 9:51 AM > > To: Jeff Calvert; arin-discuss at arin.net > > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations > > > > > > > > I agree with Jeff. Dean's got an axe to grind and obviously no bit of > > slime is too insignificant, nor is any innuendo too flimsy for him to > > throw into the fray. He's lost all credibility with me. I've had too > > many customers who owed me money that sound just like him squawking > > about any crazy thing they can think of to avoid the real issue... > > that > > they owe me money. Dean is doing the same thing... hoping that > > everyone will be either worn out or intimidated by his threats. I > > say, > > put up or shut up. Sue, or make a motion to change something under > > the > > governing rules of ARIN. > > > > My opinion on the real issue remains: > > > > 1. ARIN should collect as little money as possible to accomplish its > > core mission. > > 2. The collections should be spread out evenly amongst the people who > > derive benefit from ARIN's service... i.e. everyone who uses an IP > > address under ARIN's "authority". Legacy holders included. > > > > > > Onramp Access > > chad kissinger | president | onramp access, inc. > > p: 512.322.9200 | f: 512.476.2878 | www.onr.com your internet > > operations | built | deployed | managed > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Calvert > > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:11 AM > > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations > > > > > > > >> Board member performance is the failure to obtain a legal opinion on > >> the Legacy RSA and the scheme to threaten Legacies with denial of > >> services unless they transferred rights to ARIN through the Legacy > > RSA. > > > > And Dean gets back to his real complaint. This entire thread is a red > > herring. Dean doesn't care about 10 year old lawsuits, NANOG > > attendance, marketing budgets, or recall elections. Dean wants to the > > Legacy IP allocation policy to remain unchanged, and he will > > continue to > > harass the ARIN board until he gets his way. > > > > > > Jeff Calvert > > Network Administrator > > > > E: jcalvert at cyrusone.com > > W: www.cyrusone.com > > > > ************************************************************************ > > This e-mail message is intended only for the person(s) named above and > > may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the > > person named or have not been authorized by them to access their mail, > > please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail and any > > attachments without reading, saving, or forwarding. > > ************************************************************************ > > _______________________________________________ > > ARIN-Discuss > > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the > > ARIN Discussion > > Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > > Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net > > if you experience any issues. > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net > if you experience any issues. > > -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 From THutchison at corp.untd.com Fri Jan 18 12:50:32 2008 From: THutchison at corp.untd.com (Hutchison, Tine) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:50:32 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C4A641905D89E4B87956814FE53C462015CCBE6@LAXEVS01.lax.corp.int.untd.com> Dean, I believe that your request for an investigation does not have significant support from the membership. Lacking significant support, I think it is a waste for ARIN to spend time and resources investigating your concerns. To the wider audience, is it possible to have a vote at the next meeting concerning Dean's request for an investigation? Can he have a 5 or 10 minute time slot to present the case for the need of an investigation? Dean, if a vote happens, and you are unable to muster the required percentage of votes (whatever that number is,) will you drop this issue? Tine Hutchison -----Original Message----- From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Dean Anderson Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 9:21 AM To: Michael Smith Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations [ARIN agrees that discussion to recall Board members, to conduct investigations of ARIN expenditures, and to stop certain ARIN expenditures does not violate the ARIN AUP.] I have to say this one more time: Michael Smith does not have anything to do with my legal counsel, nor anything to do with what topics or terms my counsel has approved. As far as I know, Mr. Smith does not have anything to do with ARIN's legal counsel. The discussion of the topics I posted on December 28th are indeed appropriate. The preface to my message is not a "discovery preamble". Indeed there is no such term as "discovery preamble" in Black's Law Dictionary. This term is apparently a fabrication by Mr. Smith to embellish his argument. The preface to my message reflects the agreement on appropriate topics under the AUP. It is clear that some people want to stop or impede these investigations. ARIN itself is stonewalling and has not provided sufficient responses to reasonable questions about its activities. For some questions, ARIN has not responded at all. Board Members (e.g. Scott Bradner) have refused to respond to direct questions about whether they have a conflict of interest. However, Mr. Smith's attempt to influence and silence these discussions by baseless claims, is, well, baseless. --Dean On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Michael Smith wrote: > Hello Mel: > > I have to say this one more time. Dean has engaged legal counsel in > his complaints to/with ARIN and has prefaced all of his emails to this > list with a discovery preamble such that any responses can be used as > part of his claims. As such, I don't think any of these discussions > are now appropriate for this or any list, regardless of whether they > were before. Once you bring in the lawyers, it is up to them to come > to terms. > > Regards, > > Michael Smith - CISSP, GISP > Adhost Internet LLC > mksmith at adhost.com > > > On Jan 4, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Stotyn, Mel wrote: > > > > > I disagree with both Jeff and Chad regarding their criticism of Dean > > and the appropriateness of his discussion. > > > > Jeff: > > I don't think that you can realistically claim to know what Dean > > does or doesn't care about nor what he really wants. I interpret > > differently than you. To me, Dean appears to have more than one > > concern, not just the legacy issue but also the propriety of ARIN's > > finances and the oversight provided by it's board members. It does > > seem possible to me that Dean could have more than one concern at a > > time. For you to clip out one of several of Dean's examples of > > possible impropriety, and them claim to know that the phrase "Legacy > > RSA" within that clip is really his only concern, is both unfair and > > perhaps a little inflammatory. > > > > Chad: > > I think that Dean's requests for information from ARIN, to verify > > his concerns, is appropriate and not innuendo. The lack of cogent > > responses has been the biggest problem for me while "listening in". > > Many of the responses, from ARIN board members, to his queries have > > been obfuscations, and his attempts to get clear answers has caused > > increased traffic in the discussion, but the root problem is lack of > > clear, informative answers. > > > > Both: > > I think that this current incarnation of the discussion is generally > > both relevant and appropriate for the ARIN-DISCUSS mailing list if > > we are to have enough relevant information to apply to a vote, if > > that finally comes. To be asked to just vote on a recall or to vote > > for/against someone during a normal election without access to any > > information prior to that event, is a waste of any democratic > > responsibility. > > > > The biggest waste of my personal bandwidth is from those who just > > call for shutting down the discussion or those who seem to just > > enjoy throwing gasoline on flames. I don't think that Dean is the > > flamer, nor, lately, the board members who have responded. I would > > like to see more clear, concise, reasoned responses to Dean's > > questions. Then, I think, the thread would seem more worth the time > > to read it. > > > > Mel Stotyn > > Senior Operations Specialist > > ENMAX Envision Inc. > > mailto:mstotyn at enmax.com > > Phone: 403 514-3443 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chad Kissinger > > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 9:51 AM > > To: Jeff Calvert; arin-discuss at arin.net > > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations > > > > > > > > I agree with Jeff. Dean's got an axe to grind and obviously no bit > > of slime is too insignificant, nor is any innuendo too flimsy for > > him to throw into the fray. He's lost all credibility with me. > > I've had too many customers who owed me money that sound just like > > him squawking about any crazy thing they can think of to avoid the real issue... > > that > > they owe me money. Dean is doing the same thing... hoping that > > everyone will be either worn out or intimidated by his threats. I > > say, put up or shut up. Sue, or make a motion to change something > > under the governing rules of ARIN. > > > > My opinion on the real issue remains: > > > > 1. ARIN should collect as little money as possible to accomplish > > its core mission. > > 2. The collections should be spread out evenly amongst the people > > who derive benefit from ARIN's service... i.e. everyone who uses an > > IP address under ARIN's "authority". Legacy holders included. > > > > > > Onramp Access > > chad kissinger | president | onramp access, inc. > > p: 512.322.9200 | f: 512.476.2878 | www.onr.com your internet > > operations | built | deployed | managed > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net > > [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Calvert > > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:11 AM > > To: arin-discuss at arin.net > > Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations > > > > > > > >> Board member performance is the failure to obtain a legal opinion > >> on the Legacy RSA and the scheme to threaten Legacies with denial > >> of services unless they transferred rights to ARIN through the > >> Legacy > > RSA. > > > > And Dean gets back to his real complaint. This entire thread is a > > red herring. Dean doesn't care about 10 year old lawsuits, NANOG > > attendance, marketing budgets, or recall elections. Dean wants to > > the Legacy IP allocation policy to remain unchanged, and he will > > continue to harass the ARIN board until he gets his way. > > > > > > Jeff Calvert > > Network Administrator > > > > E: jcalvert at cyrusone.com > > W: www.cyrusone.com > > > > ******************************************************************** > > **** This e-mail message is intended only for the person(s) named > > above and may contain confidential or privileged information. If you > > are not the person named or have not been authorized by them to > > access their mail, please notify the sender immediately and delete > > this e-mail and any attachments without reading, saving, or > > forwarding. > > ******************************************************************** > > **** _______________________________________________ > > ARIN-Discuss > > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the > > ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > > Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net > > if you experience any issues. > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-Discuss > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN > Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss > Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if > you experience any issues. > > -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 _______________________________________________ ARIN-Discuss You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues. From tedm at ipinc.net Fri Jan 18 16:42:37 2008 From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:42:37 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >-----Original Message----- >From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Dean Anderson >Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 9:21 AM >To: Michael Smith >Cc: arin-discuss at arin.net >Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Status of Investigations > > >[ARIN agrees that discussion to recall Board members, to conduct >investigations of ARIN expenditures, and to stop certain ARIN >expenditures does not violate the ARIN AUP.] > > >I have to say this one more time: > >Michael Smith does not have anything to do with my legal counsel, nor >anything to do with what topics or terms my counsel has approved. > No, but how interesting that so many people echo Michael's viewpoints. >The preface to my message is not a "discovery preamble". Indeed there is >no such term as "discovery preamble" in Black's Law Dictionary. I agree. In fact, since as you point out, the discussion is useless for whatever lawsuit you keep threatening your going to file one of these days, I would go so far as to argue the entire discussion is a pointless waste of time. That is in fact, which is why I stopped participating when it became obvious at how pointless it is. I figured it would die off as of it's own accord. But, I also agree that it's not fair to continually call for "banning" this discussion as some keep doing. So, please, if your a reader still reading this who feels the urge to comment, please do so - it furnishes a great source of amusement. Ted From dean at av8.com Thu Jan 31 05:08:52 2008 From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 05:08:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [arin-discuss] No quorum in last election Message-ID: [ARIN agrees that discussion to recall Board members, to conduct investigations of ARIN expenditures, and to stop certain ARIN expenditures does not violate the ARIN AUP.] There was no quorum in (at least) last election of Board Members. At least 10% of membership is required by the Virginia Nonstock Corporation Act Section 13.1-849, in order to constitute a quorum. A membership list of 2945 members therefore requires 295 votes to be cast. Only 196 votes were actually cast, insufficient for a quorum. No quorum. No election. So, Paul Vixie and Bill Manning are not on the ARIN Board of Directors. A new election must be held that has a quorum. But, from this, I am starting to see how NANOG was able to take control of ARIN. A lack of participation in the membership made it possible for a group of about 184 able to greatly influence elections where only about 200 members participate. The bylaws can be modified by the Board of Directors or the Membership. Bylaws passed by the members can be made unchangeable by the Board of Directors. One option open to ARIN members is to pass changes to the bylaws that require a higher percentage of members to constitute a quorum. Another bylaw change I'd suggest is to require an independent Board of Directors. This recommendation was made by the Enron WorldCom Report, and adopted by the SEC for public corporations. It is probably a good idea for ARIN and other non-profits, as well. Both bylaws should be unchangeable by the Board of Directors. Dean Anderson Av8 Internet, Inc -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 From jcurran at istaff.org Thu Jan 31 11:41:37 2008 From: jcurran at istaff.org (John Curran) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:41:37 -0500 Subject: [arin-discuss] No quorum in last election In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dean Anderson has posted a note concerning the past election. ARIN's legal counsel is reviewing the matter, and will respond as soon as practical, and likely by close of business tomorrow. /John John Curran Chairman ARIN Board of Trustees At 5:08 AM -0500 1/31/08, Dean Anderson wrote: >[ARIN agrees that discussion to recall Board members, to conduct >investigations of ARIN expenditures, and to stop certain ARIN >expenditures does not violate the ARIN AUP.] > >There was no quorum in (at least) last election of Board Members. At >least 10% of membership is required by the Virginia Nonstock Corporation >Act Section 13.1-849, in order to constitute a quorum. A membership >list of 2945 members therefore requires 295 votes to be cast. Only 196 >votes were actually cast, insufficient for a quorum. No quorum. No >election. So, Paul Vixie and Bill Manning are not on the ARIN Board of >Directors. A new election must be held that has a quorum. > > >But, from this, I am starting to see how NANOG was able to take control >of ARIN. A lack of participation in the membership made it possible for >a group of about 184 able to greatly influence elections where only >about 200 members participate. > >The bylaws can be modified by the Board of Directors or the Membership. >Bylaws passed by the members can be made unchangeable by the Board of >Directors. > >One option open to ARIN members is to pass changes to the bylaws that >require a higher percentage of members to constitute a quorum. > >Another bylaw change I'd suggest is to require an independent Board of >Directors. This recommendation was made by the Enron WorldCom Report, >and adopted by the SEC for public corporations. It is probably a good >idea for ARIN and other non-profits, as well. > >Both bylaws should be unchangeable by the Board of Directors. > >Dean Anderson >Av8 Internet, Inc > > > >-- >Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? >www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service >617 344 9000 > > >_______________________________________________ >ARIN-Discuss >You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN >Discussion Mailing List (ARIN-discuss at arin.net). >Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss >Please contact the ARIN Member Services Help Desk at info at arin.net >if you experience any issues. From tedm at ipinc.net Thu Jan 31 19:40:44 2008 From: tedm at ipinc.net (Ted Mittelstaedt) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:40:44 -0800 Subject: [arin-discuss] No quorum in last election In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >-----Original Message----- >From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net >[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Dean Anderson >Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:09 AM >To: arin-discuss at arin.net >Subject: [arin-discuss] No quorum in last election > > >[ARIN agrees that discussion to recall Board members, to conduct >investigations of ARIN expenditures, and to stop certain ARIN >expenditures does not violate the ARIN AUP.] > >There was no quorum in (at least) last election of Board Members. At >least 10% of membership is required by the Virginia Nonstock Corporation >Act Section 13.1-849, in order to constitute a quorum. A membership >list of 2945 members therefore requires 295 votes to be cast. Only 196 >votes were actually cast, insufficient for a quorum. No quorum. No >election. So, Paul Vixie and Bill Manning are not on the ARIN Board of >Directors. A new election must be held that has a quorum. > John, I would like to request that the membership list be reviewed before any further voting. It is my belief that the membership list is inaccurate and that at least 990 (nine hundred and ninety) of the names on the membership list belong to people who are no longer employed by their organizations and belong to organizations that are defunct, and thus are no longer qualified to be on the list of members. Regardless of whether a network or business paid dues or a fee at one time that put them on the membership roles, if they are bankrupt or defunct or have ceased operations, they no longer exist as an entity, and a nonexistent entity cannot be a member. > >Another bylaw change I'd suggest is to require an independent Board of >Directors. This recommendation was made by the Enron WorldCom Report, >and adopted by the SEC for public corporations. It is probably a good >idea for ARIN and other non-profits, as well. > >Both bylaws should be unchangeable by the Board of Directors. > Suggestions to make changes to the bylaws are not appropriate at this time. Bylaw changes require an existing board, and since the legitimacy of the existing board is at question, it cannot make bylaw changes. Ted Mittelstaedt Internet Partners, Inc. From dean at av8.com Thu Jan 31 22:03:00 2008 From: dean at av8.com (Dean Anderson) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 22:03:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: [arin-discuss] No quorum in last election In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [ARIN agrees that discussion to recall Board members, to conduct investigations of ARIN expenditures, and to stop certain ARIN expenditures does not violate the ARIN AUP.] On Thu, 31 Jan 2008, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > I would like to request that the membership list be reviewed before > any further voting. It is my belief that the membership list is > inaccurate and that at least 990 (nine hundred and ninety) of the names > on the membership list belong to people who are no longer employed by > their organizations and belong to organizations that are defunct, > and thus are no longer qualified to be on the list of members. Where did you get this list of people? The list on the website does not list the names of people, but the names of companies. But even if the people on whatever list you have are no longer employed, their former company is still an ARIN member. So your claim about people "no longer employeed" doesn't seem to have merit. But I'd like to know where you found a list of names. Contact names and member postal addresses are a necessary part of the right of members to contact other members, but ARIN doesn't seem to have that data on the web. It seems strangely coincident that you think 990 (exactly the number that must be removed to make a quorum with 196 votes) should be removed from the membership roll. Where did you get this number? Please post the 990 names you've collected. > Regardless of whether a network or business paid dues or a fee at one > time that put them on the membership roles, if they are bankrupt or > defunct or have ceased operations, they no longer exist as an entity, > and a nonexistent entity cannot be a member. Merely being in bankruptcy or having ceased network operations doesn't terminate membership. > Suggestions to make changes to the bylaws are not appropriate at this > time. Bylaw changes require an existing board, and since the > legitimacy of the existing board is at question, it cannot make bylaw > changes. Bylaw changes do not require a Board under the Virginia statute. The membership can vote bylaws in directly. The Board can make changes only to those bylaws that the membership has not exempted from change by the Board. It doesn't work the other way around. If it could work the other way around, to make it work the way you want would require specification in the articles of incorporation, and there is no such specification in the ARIN articles. Of course, the obvious problem when the membership can't make changes directly is that the organization is stuck if the Board resigns (or is removed) en mass. Its not a good idea, and it isn't the case at present for ARIN. --Dean -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000
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