From dsd at servervault.com  Fri Apr  7 22:25:11 2006
From: dsd at servervault.com (Divins, David)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 22:25:11 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
Message-ID: <F8B974E70BDE1745ABB27AF04788FA0001B6D423@mail1.dulles.sv.int>

All,

Provided an ISP, or other direct assignment recipient, supplies valid
and responsive (24x7) Abuse, NOC, and other pertinent contact
information, a reassignment should be allowed to remain private.

This has been discussed before and abandoned
(http://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2004_6.html).  However, I feel
this issue needs to be raised again as it is more important than ever.

There are ample valid reasons for a reassignment to remain private.

ISP's may not want their customers to be mined via a public service.
Many companies only use their assignment for private business exchanges
and do not want a public vector into their block.  HIPAA clearing
facilities, banking exchanges, procurement systems are all example of
viable private reassignments.

Note also that visibility into a companies assignments makes forging DoS
attacks or phishing schemes much easier, and this is a concern for some
organizations.

The ability for an ISP to selectively and voluntarily make an assignment
private will still allow ARIN to have accurate reassignment information
as the assignments will be provided to ARIN privately whenever address
utilization must be determined.

The private designation in no way relieves the ISP of its responsibility
to the Internet community.  In fact, a private reassignment expands this
responsibility as the ISP actually must take on the responsibility
providing valid 24x7 point of contact.

If an ISP is unable or unwilling to provide a responsive NOC/abuse
contact, then they may not designate any reassignments as private.

I will be at the Montreal meeting and plan on raising this issue during
the open policy and/or open mic sessions.

Thank you,
dsd

David Divins
Principal Engineer
ServerVault Corp.
(703) 652-5955


From owen at delong.com  Fri Apr  7 23:55:54 2006
From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 20:55:54 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
In-Reply-To: <F8B974E70BDE1745ABB27AF04788FA0001B6D423@mail1.dulles.sv.int>
References: <F8B974E70BDE1745ABB27AF04788FA0001B6D423@mail1.dulles.sv.int>
Message-ID: <11D980279751628BDEF48B06@imac-en0.delong.sj.ca.us>



--On April 7, 2006 10:25:11 PM -0400 "Divins, David" <dsd at servervault.com>
wrote:

> All,
> 
> Provided an ISP, or other direct assignment recipient, supplies valid
> and responsive (24x7) Abuse, NOC, and other pertinent contact
> information, a reassignment should be allowed to remain private.
> 
First, a direct assignment recipient cannot reassign, so, this would
not apply to a direct assignment recipient.

Second, the policy was abandoned fairly recently due to lack of
support by the community and lack of consensus to move forward.

IP resources are an element of public trust.  It is common and widespread
practice to disclose as a matter of public record possessory interest
in public resources.  The public interest in an open and equitable
system of resource assignments and allocations overrides ISPs
interest in hiding the identities of their customers.


> The ability for an ISP to selectively and voluntarily make an assignment
> private will still allow ARIN to have accurate reassignment information
> as the assignments will be provided to ARIN privately whenever address
> utilization must be determined.
> 
ARIN is a stewardship organization.  The IP addresses are no more owned
by ARIN than by any recipient organization.  They are administered by
ARIN and the ISPs in the public trust.  They are public resources.

> The private designation in no way relieves the ISP of its responsibility
> to the Internet community.  In fact, a private reassignment expands this
> responsibility as the ISP actually must take on the responsibility
> providing valid 24x7 point of contact.
> 
The community vehemently opposed adding such a requirement to the previous
attempt at such a policy.

> If an ISP is unable or unwilling to provide a responsive NOC/abuse
> contact, then they may not designate any reassignments as private.
> 
How would you propose to prevent ISPs from ignoring this requirement?

Owen

-- 
If it wasn't crypto-signed, it probably didn't come from me.
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From dsd at servervault.com  Sat Apr  8 01:26:23 2006
From: dsd at servervault.com (Divins, David)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 01:26:23 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
Message-ID: <F8B974E70BDE1745ABB27AF04788FA0001B6D42C@mail1.dulles.sv.int>

All IP Allocations are done based upon trust.  If an ISP just wanted to
obscure a reassignment they could simply make up a customer.

Allowing ISP's to enter into NDA type status for reassignments and
representing these reassignments as private in public servers should
provide the registrar with more accurate information-- as that is the
basis for the reassignment policy.  Additionally, this provides much
needed privacy for companies that must adhere to ever more restrictive
privacy laws.  This allows a valid mechanism.

Why is a corporate entities right to privacy any less than an
individuals (when it comes to IP space-- and remember not all companies
are public)?

Why is there a need to know what company owns a block provided there is
a valid contact provided? This probably brings the question of how can
we ensure a valid contact.  Since all assignments are done based on
trust, there must be some base assumption that for the most part ISP's
act according to ARIN rules--  I am not aware of any ARIN
para-military-esque auditing arm that checks ISP corporate accounting
against IP assignments to see who skirts the rules.

Honestly, I would be content to see a policy that allows an ISP to go
full NDA with ARIN and provide reassignment information to ARIN on a
private basis.  Under this condition, the ISP would need to maintain
valid contact (abuse/noc) for all address space it has been assigned and
not publicly reassigned.

I firmly believe that this issue will not be going away.

-dsd

David Divins
Principal Engineer
ServerVault Corp.
(703) 652-5955


> _____________________________________________ 
> From: 	Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] 
> Sent:	Friday, April 07, 2006 11:56 PM
> To:	Divins, David; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> Subject:	Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
> 
> * PGP Signed by an unknown key: 04/07/2006 at 11:55PM
> 
> 
> 
> --On April 7, 2006 10:25:11 PM -0400 "Divins, David"
> <dsd at servervault.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > All,
> > 
> > Provided an ISP, or other direct assignment recipient, supplies
> valid
> > and responsive (24x7) Abuse, NOC, and other pertinent contact
> > information, a reassignment should be allowed to remain private.
> > 
> First, a direct assignment recipient cannot reassign, so, this would
> not apply to a direct assignment recipient.
> 
> Second, the policy was abandoned fairly recently due to lack of
> support by the community and lack of consensus to move forward.
> 
> IP resources are an element of public trust.  It is common and
> widespread
> practice to disclose as a matter of public record possessory interest
> in public resources.  The public interest in an open and equitable
> system of resource assignments and allocations overrides ISPs
> interest in hiding the identities of their customers.
> 
> 
> > The ability for an ISP to selectively and voluntarily make an
> assignment
> > private will still allow ARIN to have accurate reassignment
> information
> > as the assignments will be provided to ARIN privately whenever
> address
> > utilization must be determined.
> > 
> ARIN is a stewardship organization.  The IP addresses are no more
> owned
> by ARIN than by any recipient organization.  They are administered by
> ARIN and the ISPs in the public trust.  They are public resources.
> 
> > The private designation in no way relieves the ISP of its
> responsibility
> > to the Internet community.  In fact, a private reassignment expands
> this
> > responsibility as the ISP actually must take on the responsibility
> > providing valid 24x7 point of contact.
> > 
> The community vehemently opposed adding such a requirement to the
> previous
> attempt at such a policy.
> 
> > If an ISP is unable or unwilling to provide a responsive NOC/abuse
> > contact, then they may not designate any reassignments as private.
> > 
> How would you propose to prevent ISPs from ignoring this requirement?
> 
> Owen
> 
> -- 
> If it wasn't crypto-signed, it probably didn't come from me.
> 
> 
> * Unknown Key
> * 0x0FE2AA3D - unknown
> 
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From owen at delong.com  Sat Apr  8 03:01:00 2006
From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 00:01:00 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
In-Reply-To: <F8B974E70BDE1745ABB27AF04788FA0001B6D42C@mail1.dulles.sv.int>
References: <F8B974E70BDE1745ABB27AF04788FA0001B6D42C@mail1.dulles.sv.int>
Message-ID: <E21D0698E02F736920C6A297@imac-en0.delong.sj.ca.us>

I opposed the individual privacy policy, too.  And, before you start
wondering whether I put my money where my mouth is, feel free to look
up OD19-ARIN or 192.159.10.0/24.

Owen


--On April 8, 2006 1:26:23 AM -0400 "Divins, David" <dsd at servervault.com>
wrote:

> 
> All IP Allocations are done based upon trust.  If an ISP just wanted to
> obscure a reassignment they could simply make up a customer. 
> 
> Allowing ISP's to enter into NDA type status for reassignments and
> representing these reassignments as private in public servers should
> provide the registrar with more accurate information-- as that is the
> basis for the reassignment policy.  Additionally, this provides much
> needed privacy for companies that must adhere to ever more restrictive
> privacy laws.  This allows a valid mechanism. 
> 
> Why is a corporate entities right to privacy any less than an individuals
> (when it comes to IP space-- and remember not all companies are public)? 
> 
> Why is there a need to know what company owns a block provided there is a
> valid contact provided? This probably brings the question of how can we
> ensure a valid contact.  Since all assignments are done based on trust,
> there must be some base assumption that for the most part ISP's act
> according to ARIN rules--  I am not aware of any ARIN para-military-esque
> auditing arm that checks ISP corporate accounting against IP assignments
> to see who skirts the rules. 
> 
> Honestly, I would be content to see a policy that allows an ISP to go
> full NDA with ARIN and provide reassignment information to ARIN on a
> private basis.  Under this condition, the ISP would need to maintain
> valid contact (abuse/noc) for all address space it has been assigned and
> not publicly reassigned. 
> 
> I firmly believe that this issue will not be going away. 
> 
> -dsd 
> 
> David Divins 
> Principal Engineer 
> ServerVault Corp. 
> (703) 652-5955 
> 
> _____________________________________________ 
> From:   Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] 
> Sent:   Friday, April 07, 2006 11:56 PM 
> To:     Divins, David; ARIN-discuss at arin.net 
> Subject:        Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information 
> 
> * PGP Signed by an unknown key: 04/07/2006 at 11:55PM 
> 
> 
> --On April 7, 2006 10:25:11 PM -0400 "Divins, David"
> <dsd at servervault.com> 
> wrote: 
> 
>> All, 
>> 
>> Provided an ISP, or other direct assignment recipient, supplies valid 
>> and responsive (24x7) Abuse, NOC, and other pertinent contact 
>> information, a reassignment should be allowed to remain private. 
>> 
> First, a direct assignment recipient cannot reassign, so, this would 
> not apply to a direct assignment recipient. 
> 
> Second, the policy was abandoned fairly recently due to lack of 
> support by the community and lack of consensus to move forward. 
> 
> IP resources are an element of public trust.  It is common and widespread 
> practice to disclose as a matter of public record possessory interest 
> in public resources.  The public interest in an open and equitable 
> system of resource assignments and allocations overrides ISPs 
> interest in hiding the identities of their customers. 
> 
>> The ability for an ISP to selectively and voluntarily make an assignment 
>> private will still allow ARIN to have accurate reassignment information 
>> as the assignments will be provided to ARIN privately whenever address 
>> utilization must be determined. 
>> 
> ARIN is a stewardship organization.  The IP addresses are no more owned 
> by ARIN than by any recipient organization.  They are administered by 
> ARIN and the ISPs in the public trust.  They are public resources. 
> 
>> The private designation in no way relieves the ISP of its responsibility 
>> to the Internet community.  In fact, a private reassignment expands this 
>> responsibility as the ISP actually must take on the responsibility 
>> providing valid 24x7 point of contact. 
>> 
> The community vehemently opposed adding such a requirement to the
> previous 
> attempt at such a policy. 
> 
>> If an ISP is unable or unwilling to provide a responsive NOC/abuse 
>> contact, then they may not designate any reassignments as private. 
>> 
> How would you propose to prevent ISPs from ignoring this requirement? 
> 
> Owen 
> 
> -- 
> If it wasn't crypto-signed, it probably didn't come from me. 
> 
> * Unknown Key 
> * 0x0FE2AA3D - unknown 



-- 
If it wasn't crypto-signed, it probably didn't come from me.
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From owen at delong.com  Sat Apr  8 03:06:40 2006
From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 00:06:40 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] New DOS vector to several ISP ticket systems
Message-ID: <882F0447F91EDF2B7C193B42@imac-en0.delong.sj.ca.us>

Apparently, it is possible to open tickets with a number of ISPs simply
by sending an email to this list.

I'm not sure why there are ticket munchers subscribed to this list, but,
there appear to be several.

Owen


-- 
If it wasn't crypto-signed, it probably didn't come from me.
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From owen at delong.com  Sat Apr  8 12:18:53 2006
From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 09:18:53 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
In-Reply-To: <0af901c65b1a$17b2d0f0$750da8c0@axsdom.local>
References: <0af901c65b1a$17b2d0f0$750da8c0@axsdom.local>
Message-ID: <58B7D661D526AD5023B1FF75@imac-en0.delong.sj.ca.us>

Actually, no, I don't like being solicited.  I'm as annoyed by SPAM as
anyone.  Phishing is little more than SPAM in my experience, since it's
usually pretty easy to identify and I know better than to provide my
personal information to URLs that don't look right.

Education is the answer to phishing.  Hiding private information doesn't
actually help.  The reality is that I can't recall ever receiving a
phishing attempt that used information from whois.  The phishers
don't generally bother.  For one thing, there isn't a high enough
percentage of targets with whois entries.

My opinions on this subject have nothing to do with being affiliated or not
with a service provider or with the fact that I also work as a consultant.

My opinions are based exactly on the fact, as I stated, that IP addresses
are a resource assigned from the public trust.  If you obtain the use of
federal land, that use permit is a matter of public record.  I don't see
any reason IP address assignments should be treated any differently.
Resource allocations in the public trust should be a matter of public
record.

Owen


--On April 8, 2006 10:38:19 AM -0400 Eric Kagan <ekagan at axsne.com> wrote:

> 
> David, 
>   
> I fully support and agree with the privacy policy you speak of below.  In
> this day and age of deception (spam, phishing, fraud and a number of
> other things) I feel having any information publically accessible that
> could help defraud an individual or enterprise is neglegent.  I feel the
> Con's far out-weigh the Pro's in this area. I get constant push back from
> internal resources as well as private enterprise on releasing their
> information.  (Solely in regards to reassignments, not reallocations).
> The service providers info should be public and accurate and all
> communications should come to the service provider and dealt with
> privately to their customers.  Thats a responsibility and part of
> business of being a service provider. (If space is assigned downstream,
> the reallocated service provider info should be publically posted.) 
>   
> Lets realize that domain registrars have allowed private registrations
> for some time.  Can anyone on this list say they have *never* received
> inappropriate communications (via email, mail, phone call) that used this
> certain public information ? I know Owen mentioned he is registered with
> his info, but if he's on this list and a "consultant" he is closely tied
> to the service provider world and maybe even likes that he can be
> solicitied.  I am sure most business in the private sector would not feel
> the same way. 
>   
> Unfirtnuately I am unable to attend the Montreal event, but I am willing
> to assist or backup the private policy effort in any way possible.  I
> will welcome online or offline responses and ideas as well. 
>   
> Thank you 
> Eric 
>   
> Eric Kagan 
> CTO 
> Access Northeast/ASN 17113 
> Direct 508-281-7626 
> ekagan at axsne.com 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Divins, David
> Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 1:26 AM
> To: Owen DeLong; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
> 
>  
> 
> All IP Allocations are done based upon trust.  If an ISP just wanted to
> obscure a reassignment they could simply make up a customer. 
> 
> Allowing ISP's to enter into NDA type status for reassignments and
> representing these reassignments as private in public servers should
> provide the registrar with more accurate information-- as that is the
> basis for the reassignment policy.  Additionally, this provides much
> needed privacy for companies that must adhere to ever more restrictive
> privacy laws.  This allows a valid mechanism. 
> 
> Why is a corporate entities right to privacy any less than an individuals
> (when it comes to IP space-- and remember not all companies are public)? 
> 
> Why is there a need to know what company owns a block provided there is a
> valid contact provided? This probably brings the question of how can we
> ensure a valid contact.  Since all assignments are done based on trust,
> there must be some base assumption that for the most part ISP's act
> according to ARIN rules--  I am not aware of any ARIN para-military-esque
> auditing arm that checks ISP corporate accounting against IP assignments
> to see who skirts the rules. 
> 
> Honestly, I would be content to see a policy that allows an ISP to go
> full NDA with ARIN and provide reassignment information to ARIN on a
> private basis.  Under this condition, the ISP would need to maintain
> valid contact (abuse/noc) for all address space it has been assigned and
> not publicly reassigned. 
> 
> I firmly believe that this issue will not be going away. 
> 
> -dsd 
> 
> David Divins 
> Principal Engineer 
> ServerVault Corp. 
> (703) 652-5955 
> 
> _____________________________________________ 
> From:   Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] 
> Sent:   Friday, April 07, 2006 11:56 PM 
> To:     Divins, David; ARIN-discuss at arin.net 
> Subject:        Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information 
> 
> * PGP Signed by an unknown key: 04/07/2006 at 11:55PM 
> 
> 
> --On April 7, 2006 10:25:11 PM -0400 "Divins, David"
> <dsd at servervault.com> 
> wrote: 
> 
>> All, 
>> 
>> Provided an ISP, or other direct assignment recipient, supplies valid 
>> and responsive (24x7) Abuse, NOC, and other pertinent contact 
>> information, a reassignment should be allowed to remain private. 
>> 
> First, a direct assignment recipient cannot reassign, so, this would 
> not apply to a direct assignment recipient. 
> 
> Second, the policy was abandoned fairly recently due to lack of 
> support by the community and lack of consensus to move forward. 
> 
> IP resources are an element of public trust.  It is common and widespread 
> practice to disclose as a matter of public record possessory interest 
> in public resources.  The public interest in an open and equitable 
> system of resource assignments and allocations overrides ISPs 
> interest in hiding the identities of their customers. 
> 
>> The ability for an ISP to selectively and voluntarily make an assignment 
>> private will still allow ARIN to have accurate reassignment information 
>> as the assignments will be provided to ARIN privately whenever address 
>> utilization must be determined. 
>> 
> ARIN is a stewardship organization.  The IP addresses are no more owned 
> by ARIN than by any recipient organization.  They are administered by 
> ARIN and the ISPs in the public trust.  They are public resources. 
> 
>> The private designation in no way relieves the ISP of its responsibility 
>> to the Internet community.  In fact, a private reassignment expands this 
>> responsibility as the ISP actually must take on the responsibility 
>> providing valid 24x7 point of contact. 
>> 
> The community vehemently opposed adding such a requirement to the
> previous 
> attempt at such a policy. 
> 
>> If an ISP is unable or unwilling to provide a responsive NOC/abuse 
>> contact, then they may not designate any reassignments as private. 
>> 
> How would you propose to prevent ISPs from ignoring this requirement? 
> 
> Owen 
> 
> -- 
> If it wasn't crypto-signed, it probably didn't come from me. 
> 
> * Unknown Key 
> * 0x0FE2AA3D - unknown 
> 



-- 
If it wasn't crypto-signed, it probably didn't come from me.
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From memsvcs at arin.net  Sat Apr  8 13:19:48 2006
From: memsvcs at arin.net (Member Services)
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 13:19:48 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
In-Reply-To: <58B7D661D526AD5023B1FF75@imac-en0.delong.sj.ca.us>
References: <0af901c65b1a$17b2d0f0$750da8c0@axsdom.local>
	<58B7D661D526AD5023B1FF75@imac-en0.delong.sj.ca.us>
Message-ID: <4437F0B4.5070804@arin.net>

Owen,

As this is a policy issue, please forward this discussion onto the 
Public Policy Mailing List, ppml at arin.net.
For those of you on arin-discuss not subscribed to ppml, you can find 
subscription instructions at:: http://www.arin.net/mailing_lists/index.html.
PPML is open to the general public and provides a forum to raise and 
discuss policy-related ideas and issues surrounding existing and 
proposed ARIN policies.

Regards,

Susan Hamlin
Director, Member Services

 

Owen DeLong wrote:

>Actually, no, I don't like being solicited.  I'm as annoyed by SPAM as
>anyone.  Phishing is little more than SPAM in my experience, since it's
>usually pretty easy to identify and I know better than to provide my
>personal information to URLs that don't look right.
>
>Education is the answer to phishing.  Hiding private information doesn't
>actually help.  The reality is that I can't recall ever receiving a
>phishing attempt that used information from whois.  The phishers
>don't generally bother.  For one thing, there isn't a high enough
>percentage of targets with whois entries.
>
>My opinions on this subject have nothing to do with being affiliated or not
>with a service provider or with the fact that I also work as a consultant.
>
>My opinions are based exactly on the fact, as I stated, that IP addresses
>are a resource assigned from the public trust.  If you obtain the use of
>federal land, that use permit is a matter of public record.  I don't see
>any reason IP address assignments should be treated any differently.
>Resource allocations in the public trust should be a matter of public
>record.
>
>Owen
>
>
>--On April 8, 2006 10:38:19 AM -0400 Eric Kagan <ekagan at axsne.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>David, 
>>  
>>I fully support and agree with the privacy policy you speak of below.  In
>>this day and age of deception (spam, phishing, fraud and a number of
>>other things) I feel having any information publically accessible that
>>could help defraud an individual or enterprise is neglegent.  I feel the
>>Con's far out-weigh the Pro's in this area. I get constant push back from
>>internal resources as well as private enterprise on releasing their
>>information.  (Solely in regards to reassignments, not reallocations).
>>The service providers info should be public and accurate and all
>>communications should come to the service provider and dealt with
>>privately to their customers.  Thats a responsibility and part of
>>business of being a service provider. (If space is assigned downstream,
>>the reallocated service provider info should be publically posted.) 
>>  
>>Lets realize that domain registrars have allowed private registrations
>>for some time.  Can anyone on this list say they have *never* received
>>inappropriate communications (via email, mail, phone call) that used this
>>certain public information ? I know Owen mentioned he is registered with
>>his info, but if he's on this list and a "consultant" he is closely tied
>>to the service provider world and maybe even likes that he can be
>>solicitied.  I am sure most business in the private sector would not feel
>>the same way. 
>>  
>>Unfirtnuately I am unable to attend the Montreal event, but I am willing
>>to assist or backup the private policy effort in any way possible.  I
>>will welcome online or offline responses and ideas as well. 
>>  
>>Thank you 
>>Eric 
>>  
>>Eric Kagan 
>>CTO 
>>Access Northeast/ASN 17113 
>>Direct 508-281-7626 
>>ekagan at axsne.com 
>>  
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Divins, David
>>Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 1:26 AM
>>To: Owen DeLong; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>>
>> 
>>
>>All IP Allocations are done based upon trust.  If an ISP just wanted to
>>obscure a reassignment they could simply make up a customer. 
>>
>>Allowing ISP's to enter into NDA type status for reassignments and
>>representing these reassignments as private in public servers should
>>provide the registrar with more accurate information-- as that is the
>>basis for the reassignment policy.  Additionally, this provides much
>>needed privacy for companies that must adhere to ever more restrictive
>>privacy laws.  This allows a valid mechanism. 
>>
>>Why is a corporate entities right to privacy any less than an individuals
>>(when it comes to IP space-- and remember not all companies are public)? 
>>
>>Why is there a need to know what company owns a block provided there is a
>>valid contact provided? This probably brings the question of how can we
>>ensure a valid contact.  Since all assignments are done based on trust,
>>there must be some base assumption that for the most part ISP's act
>>according to ARIN rules--  I am not aware of any ARIN para-military-esque
>>auditing arm that checks ISP corporate accounting against IP assignments
>>to see who skirts the rules. 
>>
>>Honestly, I would be content to see a policy that allows an ISP to go
>>full NDA with ARIN and provide reassignment information to ARIN on a
>>private basis.  Under this condition, the ISP would need to maintain
>>valid contact (abuse/noc) for all address space it has been assigned and
>>not publicly reassigned. 
>>
>>I firmly believe that this issue will not be going away. 
>>
>>-dsd 
>>
>>David Divins 
>>Principal Engineer 
>>ServerVault Corp. 
>>(703) 652-5955 
>>
>>_____________________________________________ 
>>From:   Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] 
>>Sent:   Friday, April 07, 2006 11:56 PM 
>>To:     Divins, David; ARIN-discuss at arin.net 
>>Subject:        Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information 
>>
>>* PGP Signed by an unknown key: 04/07/2006 at 11:55PM 
>>
>>
>>--On April 7, 2006 10:25:11 PM -0400 "Divins, David"
>><dsd at servervault.com> 
>>wrote: 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>All, 
>>>
>>>Provided an ISP, or other direct assignment recipient, supplies valid 
>>>and responsive (24x7) Abuse, NOC, and other pertinent contact 
>>>information, a reassignment should be allowed to remain private. 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>First, a direct assignment recipient cannot reassign, so, this would 
>>not apply to a direct assignment recipient. 
>>
>>Second, the policy was abandoned fairly recently due to lack of 
>>support by the community and lack of consensus to move forward. 
>>
>>IP resources are an element of public trust.  It is common and widespread 
>>practice to disclose as a matter of public record possessory interest 
>>in public resources.  The public interest in an open and equitable 
>>system of resource assignments and allocations overrides ISPs 
>>interest in hiding the identities of their customers. 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>The ability for an ISP to selectively and voluntarily make an assignment 
>>>private will still allow ARIN to have accurate reassignment information 
>>>as the assignments will be provided to ARIN privately whenever address 
>>>utilization must be determined. 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>ARIN is a stewardship organization.  The IP addresses are no more owned 
>>by ARIN than by any recipient organization.  They are administered by 
>>ARIN and the ISPs in the public trust.  They are public resources. 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>The private designation in no way relieves the ISP of its responsibility 
>>>to the Internet community.  In fact, a private reassignment expands this 
>>>responsibility as the ISP actually must take on the responsibility 
>>>providing valid 24x7 point of contact. 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>The community vehemently opposed adding such a requirement to the
>>previous 
>>attempt at such a policy. 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>If an ISP is unable or unwilling to provide a responsive NOC/abuse 
>>>contact, then they may not designate any reassignments as private. 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>How would you propose to prevent ISPs from ignoring this requirement? 
>>
>>Owen 
>>
>>-- 
>>If it wasn't crypto-signed, it probably didn't come from me. 
>>
>>* Unknown Key 
>>* 0x0FE2AA3D - unknown 
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>
>  
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>  
>


From owen at delong.com  Sat Apr  8 13:48:11 2006
From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 10:48:11 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
In-Reply-To: <4437F0B4.5070804@arin.net>
References: <0af901c65b1a$17b2d0f0$750da8c0@axsdom.local>
	<58B7D661D526AD5023B1FF75@imac-en0.delong.sj.ca.us>
	<4437F0B4.5070804@arin.net>
Message-ID: <56791A86D4B46612446FD53F@imac-en0.delong.sj.ca.us>

Fair enough... I was responding to a thread on the discuss list.

Owen


--On April 8, 2006 1:19:48 PM -0400 Member Services <memsvcs at arin.net>
wrote:

> Owen,
> 
> As this is a policy issue, please forward this discussion onto the Public
> Policy Mailing List, ppml at arin.net.
> For those of you on arin-discuss not subscribed to ppml, you can find
> subscription instructions at::
> http://www.arin.net/mailing_lists/index.html.
> PPML is open to the general public and provides a forum to raise and
> discuss policy-related ideas and issues surrounding existing and proposed
> ARIN policies.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Susan Hamlin
> Director, Member Services
> 
>  
> Owen DeLong wrote:
> 
>> Actually, no, I don't like being solicited.  I'm as annoyed by SPAM as
>> anyone.  Phishing is little more than SPAM in my experience, since it's
>> usually pretty easy to identify and I know better than to provide my
>> personal information to URLs that don't look right.
>> 
>> Education is the answer to phishing.  Hiding private information doesn't
>> actually help.  The reality is that I can't recall ever receiving a
>> phishing attempt that used information from whois.  The phishers
>> don't generally bother.  For one thing, there isn't a high enough
>> percentage of targets with whois entries.
>> 
>> My opinions on this subject have nothing to do with being affiliated or
>> not with a service provider or with the fact that I also work as a
>> consultant.
>> 
>> My opinions are based exactly on the fact, as I stated, that IP addresses
>> are a resource assigned from the public trust.  If you obtain the use of
>> federal land, that use permit is a matter of public record.  I don't see
>> any reason IP address assignments should be treated any differently.
>> Resource allocations in the public trust should be a matter of public
>> record.
>> 
>> Owen
>> 
>> 
>> --On April 8, 2006 10:38:19 AM -0400 Eric Kagan <ekagan at axsne.com> wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>> David, 
>>>  
>>> I fully support and agree with the privacy policy you speak of below.
>>> In this day and age of deception (spam, phishing, fraud and a number of
>>> other things) I feel having any information publically accessible that
>>> could help defraud an individual or enterprise is neglegent.  I feel the
>>> Con's far out-weigh the Pro's in this area. I get constant push back
>>> from internal resources as well as private enterprise on releasing their
>>> information.  (Solely in regards to reassignments, not reallocations).
>>> The service providers info should be public and accurate and all
>>> communications should come to the service provider and dealt with
>>> privately to their customers.  Thats a responsibility and part of
>>> business of being a service provider. (If space is assigned downstream,
>>> the reallocated service provider info should be publically posted.) 
>>>  
>>> Lets realize that domain registrars have allowed private registrations
>>> for some time.  Can anyone on this list say they have *never* received
>>> inappropriate communications (via email, mail, phone call) that used
>>> this certain public information ? I know Owen mentioned he is
>>> registered with his info, but if he's on this list and a "consultant"
>>> he is closely tied to the service provider world and maybe even likes
>>> that he can be solicitied.  I am sure most business in the private
>>> sector would not feel the same way. 
>>>  
>>> Unfirtnuately I am unable to attend the Montreal event, but I am willing
>>> to assist or backup the private policy effort in any way possible.  I
>>> will welcome online or offline responses and ideas as well. 
>>>  
>>> Thank you 
>>> Eric 
>>>  
>>> Eric Kagan 
>>> CTO 
>>> Access Northeast/ASN 17113 
>>> Direct 508-281-7626 
>>> ekagan at axsne.com 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Divins, David
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 1:26 AM
>>> To: Owen DeLong; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> All IP Allocations are done based upon trust.  If an ISP just wanted to
>>> obscure a reassignment they could simply make up a customer. 
>>> 
>>> Allowing ISP's to enter into NDA type status for reassignments and
>>> representing these reassignments as private in public servers should
>>> provide the registrar with more accurate information-- as that is the
>>> basis for the reassignment policy.  Additionally, this provides much
>>> needed privacy for companies that must adhere to ever more restrictive
>>> privacy laws.  This allows a valid mechanism. 
>>> 
>>> Why is a corporate entities right to privacy any less than an
>>> individuals (when it comes to IP space-- and remember not all companies
>>> are public)? 
>>> 
>>> Why is there a need to know what company owns a block provided there is
>>> a valid contact provided? This probably brings the question of how can
>>> we ensure a valid contact.  Since all assignments are done based on
>>> trust, there must be some base assumption that for the most part ISP's
>>> act according to ARIN rules--  I am not aware of any ARIN
>>> para-military-esque auditing arm that checks ISP corporate accounting
>>> against IP assignments to see who skirts the rules. 
>>> 
>>> Honestly, I would be content to see a policy that allows an ISP to go
>>> full NDA with ARIN and provide reassignment information to ARIN on a
>>> private basis.  Under this condition, the ISP would need to maintain
>>> valid contact (abuse/noc) for all address space it has been assigned and
>>> not publicly reassigned. 
>>> 
>>> I firmly believe that this issue will not be going away. 
>>> 
>>> -dsd 
>>> 
>>> David Divins 
>>> Principal Engineer 
>>> ServerVault Corp. 
>>> (703) 652-5955 
>>> 
>>> _____________________________________________ 
>>> From:   Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com] 
>>> Sent:   Friday, April 07, 2006 11:56 PM 
>>> To:     Divins, David; ARIN-discuss at arin.net 
>>> Subject:        Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information 
>>> 
>>> * PGP Signed by an unknown key: 04/07/2006 at 11:55PM 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --On April 7, 2006 10:25:11 PM -0400 "Divins, David"
>>> <dsd at servervault.com> 
>>> wrote: 
>>> 
>>>    
>>> 
>>>> All, 
>>>> 
>>>> Provided an ISP, or other direct assignment recipient, supplies valid 
>>>> and responsive (24x7) Abuse, NOC, and other pertinent contact 
>>>> information, a reassignment should be allowed to remain private. 
>>>> 
>>>>      
>>>> 
>>> First, a direct assignment recipient cannot reassign, so, this would 
>>> not apply to a direct assignment recipient. 
>>> 
>>> Second, the policy was abandoned fairly recently due to lack of 
>>> support by the community and lack of consensus to move forward. 
>>> 
>>> IP resources are an element of public trust.  It is common and
>>> widespread  practice to disclose as a matter of public record
>>> possessory interest  in public resources.  The public interest in an
>>> open and equitable  system of resource assignments and allocations
>>> overrides ISPs 
>>> interest in hiding the identities of their customers. 
>>> 
>>>    
>>> 
>>>> The ability for an ISP to selectively and voluntarily make an
>>>> assignment  private will still allow ARIN to have accurate
>>>> reassignment information  as the assignments will be provided to ARIN
>>>> privately whenever address  utilization must be determined. 
>>>> 
>>>>      
>>>> 
>>> ARIN is a stewardship organization.  The IP addresses are no more owned 
>>> by ARIN than by any recipient organization.  They are administered by 
>>> ARIN and the ISPs in the public trust.  They are public resources. 
>>> 
>>>    
>>> 
>>>> The private designation in no way relieves the ISP of its
>>>> responsibility  to the Internet community.  In fact, a private
>>>> reassignment expands this  responsibility as the ISP actually must
>>>> take on the responsibility  providing valid 24x7 point of contact. 
>>>> 
>>>>      
>>>> 
>>> The community vehemently opposed adding such a requirement to the
>>> previous 
>>> attempt at such a policy. 
>>> 
>>>    
>>> 
>>>> If an ISP is unable or unwilling to provide a responsive NOC/abuse 
>>>> contact, then they may not designate any reassignments as private. 
>>>> 
>>>>      
>>>> 
>>> How would you propose to prevent ISPs from ignoring this requirement? 
>>> 
>>> Owen 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> If it wasn't crypto-signed, it probably didn't come from me. 
>>> 
>>> * Unknown Key 
>>> * 0x0FE2AA3D - unknown 
>>> 
>>>    
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARIN-discuss mailing list
>> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>  
>> 



-- 
If it wasn't crypto-signed, it probably didn't come from me.
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From william at elan.net  Sat Apr  8 22:09:00 2006
From: william at elan.net (william(at)elan.net)
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 19:09:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
In-Reply-To: <58B7D661D526AD5023B1FF75@imac-en0.delong.sj.ca.us>
References: <0af901c65b1a$17b2d0f0$750da8c0@axsdom.local>
	<58B7D661D526AD5023B1FF75@imac-en0.delong.sj.ca.us>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0604081840380.7742@sokol.elan.net>


On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Owen DeLong wrote:

> Education is the answer to phishing.  Hiding private information doesn't
> actually help.  The reality is that I can't recall ever receiving a
> phishing attempt that used information from whois. The phishers
> don't generally bother.  For one thing, there isn't a high enough
> percentage of targets with whois entries.

It happened and was in fact domain registration related phishing (apparently
to get domain password), but this has nothing to do with ip whois.

The reality is that ip whois is rarely used for spam target harvesting 
(but not never and doing so is not illegal or against arin policies) and
when it is, that is mostly to send service offers to ISPs, ASPs and other 
companies with presence on the internet. Additionally phishing requires 
email address and other contact information where as IP whois publication
is only required for name and address and only for businesses. So I really 
don't see how ip whois data can have anything to do with phishing.

> My opinions are based exactly on the fact, as I stated, that IP addresses
> are a resource assigned from the public trust.  If you obtain the use of
> federal land, that use permit is a matter of public record.  I don't see
> any reason IP address assignments should be treated any differently.
> Resource allocations in the public trust should be a matter of public
> record.

I entirely agree.


BTW - for people who worry about privacy and phishing may I remind that 
your tax records are in fact public information (at least in US), what do 
you think  provides more useful data that or whois if somebody wants to 
use this for fraud? Reality is that there is tons of data already in public
records on everyone and especially on corporations/businesses and all that 
data is of a lot more interest to abusers then what is in whois (difference
is that whois is easy to query and use, but in practice if anyone wants to 
do something bad, they'd go for more useful info anyway).

The real issue is that some ISPs don't want to provide records on who is
using their ip space. This is for various reasons - some are concerned 
about privacy as it related to their business business relationships,
some want to hide that they are dealings with certain  "net abusers"
(this is really subset of business relationship issue) and some are
just lazy and want to reduce amount of work they have to do (i.e.
publishing and maintaining SWIPs is extra work).

---
William Leibzon
Elan Networks
william at elan.net


From arin-member at quadrix.com  Sun Apr  9 19:08:38 2006
From: arin-member at quadrix.com (Bill Van Emburg)
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 18:08:38 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1144598402.32266.arin-discuss@arin.net>
References: <mailman.3.1144598402.32266.arin-discuss@arin.net>
Message-ID: <443993F6.8040201@quadrix.com>

> Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 19:09:00 -0700 (PDT)
> From: "william(at)elan.net" <william at elan.net>
> 
> The reality is that ip whois is rarely used for spam target harvesting 
> (but not never and doing so is not illegal or against arin policies) and
> when it is, that is mostly to send service offers to ISPs, ASPs and other 
> companies with presence on the internet. 

Umm...  Tell that to the spammers sending me several hundred spams via 
my Arin whois info every week....
You sure they aren't just being filtered before they get to you?

Also, ARIN *does* have policies against running large numbers of 
individual queries, and if you get the bulk data, you have to sign a 
contract prohibiting use for spamming, among other things....

> 
> BTW - for people who worry about privacy and phishing may I remind that 
> your tax records are in fact public information (at least in US), what do 

Umm...last I checked, you can't just walk into the IRS offices and ask 
for a random person's tax return, even with the person's tax ID. 
Mortgage companies, accountants, and others I've dealt with have needed 
a signed form from me before the IRS would help them out.

Are you sure about this?

-Bill Van Emburg




From bdykes at viawest.net  Mon Apr 10 12:20:21 2006
From: bdykes at viawest.net (Barry Dykes)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 10:20:21 -0600
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0604081840380.7742@sokol.elan.net>
Message-ID: <200604101620.k3AGKHvB011805@crayon.viawest.net>

I have to say that I do not agree with making everything public.  Spam and
phishing are one thing, but I pay a lot of money to get my customers and
more to keep them.  I have no intention of posting that for any competitor
to browse.

Thanks,


Barry A. Dykes
VP Engineering/Operations
ViaWest Internet Services
bdykes at viawest.net
303-407-4708






From MErskine at HostDepot.com  Mon Apr 10 12:23:34 2006
From: MErskine at HostDepot.com (Mark Erskine)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:23:34 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
Message-ID: <A56FA4761A07414EB8196CB211F206D662C701@hdflex00.fl.hostdepot.net>

I'll second that! 


Thanks, 
Mark Erskine 
Host Depot, Inc. 
http://www.HostDepot.com 
Phone: 954.340.3527 
Fax: 954.340.3539 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Barry Dykes
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:20 PM
Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; ppml at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information

I have to say that I do not agree with making everything public.  Spam
and phishing are one thing, but I pay a lot of money to get my customers
and more to keep them.  I have no intention of posting that for any
competitor to browse.

Thanks,


Barry A. Dykes
VP Engineering/Operations
ViaWest Internet Services
bdykes at viawest.net
303-407-4708




_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss


From ghiscott at keyconnect.com  Mon Apr 10 12:37:15 2006
From: ghiscott at keyconnect.com (G.Hiscott)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 9:37:15 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
In-Reply-To: <A56FA4761A07414EB8196CB211F206D662C701@hdflex00.fl.hostdepot.net>
References: <A56FA4761A07414EB8196CB211F206D662C701@hdflex00.fl.hostdepot.net>
Message-ID: <860-SnapperMsgF653DE21C0603A50@[10.199.247.19]>

if the information is available, then it is only a matter of time before it 
will be abused for marketing purposes by unscrupolous sales people.


___
www.keyconnect.com

...... Original Message .......
On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:23:34 -0400 "Mark Erskine" <MErskine at HostDepot.com> 
wrote:
>I'll second that! 
>
>
>Thanks, 
>Mark Erskine 
>Host Depot, Inc. 
>http://www.HostDepot.com 
>Phone: 954.340.3527 
>Fax: 954.340.3539 
> 
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Barry Dykes
>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:20 PM
>Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; ppml at arin.net
>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>
>I have to say that I do not agree with making everything public.  Spam
>and phishing are one thing, but I pay a lot of money to get my customers
>and more to keep them.  I have no intention of posting that for any
>competitor to browse.
>
>Thanks,
>
>
>Barry A. Dykes
>VP Engineering/Operations
>ViaWest Internet Services
>bdykes at viawest.net
>303-407-4708
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>_______________________________________________
>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>



From tvest at pch.net  Mon Apr 10 13:27:43 2006
From: tvest at pch.net (Tom Vest)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 13:27:43 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
In-Reply-To: <860-SnapperMsgF653DE21C0603A50@[10.199.247.19]>
References: <A56FA4761A07414EB8196CB211F206D662C701@hdflex00.fl.hostdepot.net>
	<860-SnapperMsgF653DE21C0603A50@[10.199.247.19]>
Message-ID: <73366B37-91F8-4E03-B429-08436CCC0662@pch.net>

If the information can be legitimately obscured, then it is only a  
matter of time before the anonymity will be abused by unscrupulous  
people.

I think it would be prudent to take a letter from other "governance"  
discussions, and strongly resist the temptation to combat "higher  
level" abuses by imposing the enforcement burden on "lower level"  
operations/administrative structures. ARIN and the RIRs are vested  
with responsibility for maintaining records for number resources held  
in public trust. If the records are abused, the specific abuses and  
abusers should be targeted -- even if this is more difficult --  
rather than taking the easy route of attacking the underlying systems.

Tom

On Apr 10, 2006, at 12:37 PM, G.Hiscott wrote:

> if the information is available, then it is only a matter of time  
> before it
> will be abused for marketing purposes by unscrupolous sales people.
>
>
> ___
> www.keyconnect.com
>
> ...... Original Message .......
> On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:23:34 -0400 "Mark Erskine"  
> <MErskine at HostDepot.com>
> wrote:
>> I'll second that!
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mark Erskine
>> Host Depot, Inc.
>> http://www.HostDepot.com
>> Phone: 954.340.3527
>> Fax: 954.340.3539
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Barry Dykes
>> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:20 PM
>> Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; ppml at arin.net
>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>>
>> I have to say that I do not agree with making everything public.   
>> Spam
>> and phishing are one thing, but I pay a lot of money to get my  
>> customers
>> and more to keep them.  I have no intention of posting that for any
>> competitor to browse.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>> Barry A. Dykes
>> VP Engineering/Operations
>> ViaWest Internet Services
>> bdykes at viawest.net
>> 303-407-4708
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARIN-discuss mailing list
>> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARIN-discuss mailing list
>> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss



From gary.wall at inet-systems.com  Mon Apr 10 14:16:30 2006
From: gary.wall at inet-systems.com (Gary Wall)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 14:16:30 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
Message-ID: <C01298DFE3F3DE4880C2C4BF0D814F23393F74@exchange.inet-systems.com>

Hi Tom,

I agree that there is a duty to be transparent. But open records are
abused by spammers and enforcement against them is like trying to get
the toothpaste back in the tube.  Maybe having a system that requires a
non-machine readable challenge-response like Godaddy or such might be
the solution for all parties that need to query this information. There
might be a backdoor for qualified parties on a need-to-know basis.

Best Regards,

Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Tom Vest
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 1:28 PM
To: ppml at arin.net
Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; Mark Erskine
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information

If the information can be legitimately obscured, then it is only a  
matter of time before the anonymity will be abused by unscrupulous  
people.

I think it would be prudent to take a letter from other "governance"  
discussions, and strongly resist the temptation to combat "higher  
level" abuses by imposing the enforcement burden on "lower level"  
operations/administrative structures. ARIN and the RIRs are vested  
with responsibility for maintaining records for number resources held  
in public trust. If the records are abused, the specific abuses and  
abusers should be targeted -- even if this is more difficult --  
rather than taking the easy route of attacking the underlying systems.

Tom

On Apr 10, 2006, at 12:37 PM, G.Hiscott wrote:

> if the information is available, then it is only a matter of time  
> before it
> will be abused for marketing purposes by unscrupolous sales people.
>
>
> ___
> www.keyconnect.com
>
> ...... Original Message .......
> On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:23:34 -0400 "Mark Erskine"  
> <MErskine at HostDepot.com>
> wrote:
>> I'll second that!
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mark Erskine
>> Host Depot, Inc.
>> http://www.HostDepot.com
>> Phone: 954.340.3527
>> Fax: 954.340.3539
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Barry Dykes
>> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:20 PM
>> Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; ppml at arin.net
>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>>
>> I have to say that I do not agree with making everything public.   
>> Spam
>> and phishing are one thing, but I pay a lot of money to get my  
>> customers
>> and more to keep them.  I have no intention of posting that for any
>> competitor to browse.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>> Barry A. Dykes
>> VP Engineering/Operations
>> ViaWest Internet Services
>> bdykes at viawest.net
>> 303-407-4708
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARIN-discuss mailing list
>> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARIN-discuss mailing list
>> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss

_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss



From william at elan.net  Mon Apr 10 14:22:18 2006
From: william at elan.net (william(at)elan.net)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:22:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
In-Reply-To: <C01298DFE3F3DE4880C2C4BF0D814F23393F74@exchange.inet-systems.com>
References: <C01298DFE3F3DE4880C2C4BF0D814F23393F74@exchange.inet-systems.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0604101118480.29819@sokol.elan.net>


You're not required to provide your email address or phone for ARIN 
reassignment records (yes, there are marketeers that will send postal
mail advertisement, but that seems far from being serious issue).

Phone and email are only required for contact information and that
is optional and you can always choose to use your ISP's contact for 
reassignment (in fact that is how its done for simple reassignment).

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006, Gary Wall wrote:

> Hi Tom,
>
> I agree that there is a duty to be transparent. But open records are
> abused by spammers and enforcement against them is like trying to get
> the toothpaste back in the tube.  Maybe having a system that requires a
> non-machine readable challenge-response like Godaddy or such might be
> the solution for all parties that need to query this information. There
> might be a backdoor for qualified parties on a need-to-know basis.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Tom Vest
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 1:28 PM
> To: ppml at arin.net
> Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; Mark Erskine
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>
> If the information can be legitimately obscured, then it is only a
> matter of time before the anonymity will be abused by unscrupulous
> people.
>
> I think it would be prudent to take a letter from other "governance"
> discussions, and strongly resist the temptation to combat "higher
> level" abuses by imposing the enforcement burden on "lower level"
> operations/administrative structures. ARIN and the RIRs are vested
> with responsibility for maintaining records for number resources held
> in public trust. If the records are abused, the specific abuses and
> abusers should be targeted -- even if this is more difficult --
> rather than taking the easy route of attacking the underlying systems.
>
> Tom
>
> On Apr 10, 2006, at 12:37 PM, G.Hiscott wrote:
>
>> if the information is available, then it is only a matter of time
>> before it
>> will be abused for marketing purposes by unscrupolous sales people.
>>
>>
>> ___
>> www.keyconnect.com
>>
>> ...... Original Message .......
>> On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:23:34 -0400 "Mark Erskine"
>> <MErskine at HostDepot.com>
>> wrote:
>>> I'll second that!
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Mark Erskine
>>> Host Depot, Inc.
>>> http://www.HostDepot.com
>>> Phone: 954.340.3527
>>> Fax: 954.340.3539
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Barry Dykes
>>> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:20 PM
>>> Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; ppml at arin.net
>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>>>
>>> I have to say that I do not agree with making everything public.
>>> Spam
>>> and phishing are one thing, but I pay a lot of money to get my
>>> customers
>>> and more to keep them.  I have no intention of posting that for any
>>> competitor to browse.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>>
>>> Barry A. Dykes
>>> VP Engineering/Operations
>>> ViaWest Internet Services
>>> bdykes at viawest.net
>>> 303-407-4708
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARIN-discuss mailing list
>> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>

-- 
William Leibzon
Elan Networks
william at elan.net


From peter at webperception.com  Mon Apr 10 17:09:35 2006
From: peter at webperception.com (PETER SKEELS)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 14:09:35 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.62.0604101118480.29819@sokol.elan.net>
References: <C01298DFE3F3DE4880C2C4BF0D814F23393F74@exchange.inet-systems.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.62.0604101118480.29819@sokol.elan.net>
Message-ID: <443AC98F.5070205@webperception.com>

How do I get off this list???

______________________
Thank you,

Peter Skeels
WebPerception, LLC
?Your total resource for internet access and services.?
1701 Novato Blvd., Suite 103, Novato, CA. 94947
voice 415.892.7711 ext. 13
voice 800.569.8062 ext. 13
fax   415.898.3974
peter at webperception.com
http://www.webperception.com

Our best advertising has always been referrals from customers so please remember to mention WebPerception to your friends, colleagues, and associates.



william(at)elan.net wrote:

>You're not required to provide your email address or phone for ARIN 
>reassignment records (yes, there are marketeers that will send postal
>mail advertisement, but that seems far from being serious issue).
>
>Phone and email are only required for contact information and that
>is optional and you can always choose to use your ISP's contact for 
>reassignment (in fact that is how its done for simple reassignment).
>
>On Mon, 10 Apr 2006, Gary Wall wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Hi Tom,
>>
>>I agree that there is a duty to be transparent. But open records are
>>abused by spammers and enforcement against them is like trying to get
>>the toothpaste back in the tube.  Maybe having a system that requires a
>>non-machine readable challenge-response like Godaddy or such might be
>>the solution for all parties that need to query this information. There
>>might be a backdoor for qualified parties on a need-to-know basis.
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>Gary
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Tom Vest
>>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 1:28 PM
>>To: ppml at arin.net
>>Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; Mark Erskine
>>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>>
>>If the information can be legitimately obscured, then it is only a
>>matter of time before the anonymity will be abused by unscrupulous
>>people.
>>
>>I think it would be prudent to take a letter from other "governance"
>>discussions, and strongly resist the temptation to combat "higher
>>level" abuses by imposing the enforcement burden on "lower level"
>>operations/administrative structures. ARIN and the RIRs are vested
>>with responsibility for maintaining records for number resources held
>>in public trust. If the records are abused, the specific abuses and
>>abusers should be targeted -- even if this is more difficult --
>>rather than taking the easy route of attacking the underlying systems.
>>
>>Tom
>>
>>On Apr 10, 2006, at 12:37 PM, G.Hiscott wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>if the information is available, then it is only a matter of time
>>>before it
>>>will be abused for marketing purposes by unscrupolous sales people.
>>>
>>>
>>>___
>>>www.keyconnect.com
>>>
>>>...... Original Message .......
>>>On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:23:34 -0400 "Mark Erskine"
>>><MErskine at HostDepot.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>I'll second that!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Mark Erskine
>>>>Host Depot, Inc.
>>>>http://www.HostDepot.com
>>>>Phone: 954.340.3527
>>>>Fax: 954.340.3539
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Barry Dykes
>>>>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:20 PM
>>>>Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; ppml at arin.net
>>>>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>>>>
>>>>I have to say that I do not agree with making everything public.
>>>>Spam
>>>>and phishing are one thing, but I pay a lot of money to get my
>>>>customers
>>>>and more to keep them.  I have no intention of posting that for any
>>>>competitor to browse.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Barry A. Dykes
>>>>VP Engineering/Operations
>>>>ViaWest Internet Services
>>>>bdykes at viawest.net
>>>>303-407-4708
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>      
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>
>>    
>>
>
>  
>



From hostmaster at ccom.net  Mon Apr 10 17:12:34 2006
From: hostmaster at ccom.net (Hostmaster)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 14:12:34 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
In-Reply-To: <443AC98F.5070205@webperception.com>
Message-ID: <20060410211238.E4F101456DF@smtp2.arin.net>

I would like to know how to get off this list also

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]
On Behalf Of PETER SKEELS
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 2:10 PM
To: william(at)elan.net
Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information

How do I get off this list???

______________________
Thank you,

Peter Skeels
WebPerception, LLC
"Your total resource for internet access and services."
1701 Novato Blvd., Suite 103, Novato, CA. 94947
voice 415.892.7711 ext. 13
voice 800.569.8062 ext. 13
fax   415.898.3974
peter at webperception.com
http://www.webperception.com

Our best advertising has always been referrals from customers so please
remember to mention WebPerception to your friends, colleagues, and
associates.



william(at)elan.net wrote:

>You're not required to provide your email address or phone for ARIN 
>reassignment records (yes, there are marketeers that will send postal
>mail advertisement, but that seems far from being serious issue).
>
>Phone and email are only required for contact information and that
>is optional and you can always choose to use your ISP's contact for 
>reassignment (in fact that is how its done for simple reassignment).
>
>On Mon, 10 Apr 2006, Gary Wall wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Hi Tom,
>>
>>I agree that there is a duty to be transparent. But open records are
>>abused by spammers and enforcement against them is like trying to get
>>the toothpaste back in the tube.  Maybe having a system that requires a
>>non-machine readable challenge-response like Godaddy or such might be
>>the solution for all parties that need to query this information. There
>>might be a backdoor for qualified parties on a need-to-know basis.
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>Gary
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Tom Vest
>>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 1:28 PM
>>To: ppml at arin.net
>>Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; Mark Erskine
>>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>>
>>If the information can be legitimately obscured, then it is only a
>>matter of time before the anonymity will be abused by unscrupulous
>>people.
>>
>>I think it would be prudent to take a letter from other "governance"
>>discussions, and strongly resist the temptation to combat "higher
>>level" abuses by imposing the enforcement burden on "lower level"
>>operations/administrative structures. ARIN and the RIRs are vested
>>with responsibility for maintaining records for number resources held
>>in public trust. If the records are abused, the specific abuses and
>>abusers should be targeted -- even if this is more difficult --
>>rather than taking the easy route of attacking the underlying systems.
>>
>>Tom
>>
>>On Apr 10, 2006, at 12:37 PM, G.Hiscott wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>if the information is available, then it is only a matter of time
>>>before it
>>>will be abused for marketing purposes by unscrupolous sales people.
>>>
>>>
>>>___
>>>www.keyconnect.com
>>>
>>>...... Original Message .......
>>>On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:23:34 -0400 "Mark Erskine"
>>><MErskine at HostDepot.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>I'll second that!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Mark Erskine
>>>>Host Depot, Inc.
>>>>http://www.HostDepot.com
>>>>Phone: 954.340.3527
>>>>Fax: 954.340.3539
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Barry Dykes
>>>>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:20 PM
>>>>Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; ppml at arin.net
>>>>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>>>>
>>>>I have to say that I do not agree with making everything public.
>>>>Spam
>>>>and phishing are one thing, but I pay a lot of money to get my
>>>>customers
>>>>and more to keep them.  I have no intention of posting that for any
>>>>competitor to browse.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Barry A. Dykes
>>>>VP Engineering/Operations
>>>>ViaWest Internet Services
>>>>bdykes at viawest.net
>>>>303-407-4708
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>      
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>
>>    
>>
>
>  
>

_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss




From lsanderson at csiweb.com  Mon Apr 10 17:16:29 2006
From: lsanderson at csiweb.com (Larry Sanderson)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:16:29 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
Message-ID: <07FBE04DDABA1541800F7CCADF6A56EE1FE0EB@padebze0303.CSIDMZ.local>

How do I get off this list? I agree with that question.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]
> On Behalf Of PETER SKEELS
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 4:10 PM
> To: william(at)elan.net
> Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
> 
> How do I get off this list???
> 
> ______________________
> Thank you,
> 
> Peter Skeels
> WebPerception, LLC
> "Your total resource for internet access and services."
> 1701 Novato Blvd., Suite 103, Novato, CA. 94947
> voice 415.892.7711 ext. 13
> voice 800.569.8062 ext. 13
> fax   415.898.3974
> peter at webperception.com
> http://www.webperception.com
> 
> Our best advertising has always been referrals from customers so
please
> remember to mention WebPerception to your friends, colleagues, and
> associates.
> 
> 
> 
> william(at)elan.net wrote:
> 
> >You're not required to provide your email address or phone for ARIN
> >reassignment records (yes, there are marketeers that will send postal
> >mail advertisement, but that seems far from being serious issue).
> >
> >Phone and email are only required for contact information and that
> >is optional and you can always choose to use your ISP's contact for
> >reassignment (in fact that is how its done for simple reassignment).
> >
> >On Mon, 10 Apr 2006, Gary Wall wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Hi Tom,
> >>
> >>I agree that there is a duty to be transparent. But open records are
> >>abused by spammers and enforcement against them is like trying to
get
> >>the toothpaste back in the tube.  Maybe having a system that
requires a
> >>non-machine readable challenge-response like Godaddy or such might
be
> >>the solution for all parties that need to query this information.
There
> >>might be a backdoor for qualified parties on a need-to-know basis.
> >>
> >>Best Regards,
> >>
> >>Gary
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> >>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Tom Vest
> >>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 1:28 PM
> >>To: ppml at arin.net
> >>Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; Mark Erskine
> >>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
> >>
> >>If the information can be legitimately obscured, then it is only a
> >>matter of time before the anonymity will be abused by unscrupulous
> >>people.
> >>
> >>I think it would be prudent to take a letter from other "governance"
> >>discussions, and strongly resist the temptation to combat "higher
> >>level" abuses by imposing the enforcement burden on "lower level"
> >>operations/administrative structures. ARIN and the RIRs are vested
> >>with responsibility for maintaining records for number resources
held
> >>in public trust. If the records are abused, the specific abuses and
> >>abusers should be targeted -- even if this is more difficult --
> >>rather than taking the easy route of attacking the underlying
systems.
> >>
> >>Tom
> >>
> >>On Apr 10, 2006, at 12:37 PM, G.Hiscott wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>if the information is available, then it is only a matter of time
> >>>before it
> >>>will be abused for marketing purposes by unscrupolous sales people.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>___
> >>>www.keyconnect.com
> >>>
> >>>...... Original Message .......
> >>>On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:23:34 -0400 "Mark Erskine"
> >>><MErskine at HostDepot.com>
> >>>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I'll second that!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Thanks,
> >>>>Mark Erskine
> >>>>Host Depot, Inc.
> >>>>http://www.HostDepot.com
> >>>>Phone: 954.340.3527
> >>>>Fax: 954.340.3539
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> >>>>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Barry Dykes
> >>>>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:20 PM
> >>>>Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; ppml at arin.net
> >>>>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
> >>>>
> >>>>I have to say that I do not agree with making everything public.
> >>>>Spam
> >>>>and phishing are one thing, but I pay a lot of money to get my
> >>>>customers
> >>>>and more to keep them.  I have no intention of posting that for
any
> >>>>competitor to browse.
> >>>>
> >>>>Thanks,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Barry A. Dykes
> >>>>VP Engineering/Operations
> >>>>ViaWest Internet Services
> >>>>bdykes at viawest.net
> >>>>303-407-4708
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
> >>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> >>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> >>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
> >>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> >>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
> >>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> >>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> >>>
> >>>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>ARIN-discuss mailing list
> >>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> >>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>ARIN-discuss mailing list
> >>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> >>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss


From christopher.meadors at twrcommunications.com  Mon Apr 10 17:19:49 2006
From: christopher.meadors at twrcommunications.com (Christopher Meadors)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:19:49 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
In-Reply-To: <20060410211238.E4F101456DF@smtp2.arin.net>
References: <20060410211238.E4F101456DF@smtp2.arin.net>
Message-ID: <1144703989.8004.79.camel@clubneon.priv.hereintown.net>

Have a look at the bottom of every message.

On Mon, 2006-04-10 at 14:12 -0700, Hostmaster wrote:
> I would like to know how to get off this list also
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]
> On Behalf Of PETER SKEELS
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 2:10 PM
> To: william(at)elan.net
> Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
> 
> How do I get off this list???
> >>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
> >>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> >>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> >>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
> >>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> >>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
> >>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> >>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>ARIN-discuss mailing list
> >>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> >>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>ARIN-discuss mailing list
> >>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> >>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss




From danejasper at nextel.blackberry.net  Mon Apr 10 17:18:34 2006
From: danejasper at nextel.blackberry.net (Dane Jasper)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 21:18:34 +0000 GMT
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
Message-ID: <296504896-1144704001-cardhu_blackberry.rim.net-247-@engine09>

Check the end of every message for the list URL.  This is how most listserve systems function.

-Dane

--
Dane Jasper	Sonic.net, Inc.
(707)522-1000
mailto:dane at sonic.net			http://www.sonic.net/

Key fingerprint =  A5 D6 6E 16 D8 81 BA E9  CB BD A9 77 B3 AF 45 53 


From bruce at maxuptime.com  Mon Apr 10 17:29:15 2006
From: bruce at maxuptime.com (Bruce Goldstein)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:29:15 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
In-Reply-To: <20060410211238.E4F101456DF@smtp2.arin.net>
Message-ID: <200604101620642.SM00588@bgdesk2>

Ditto.

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]
On Behalf Of Hostmaster
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 4:13 PM
To: peter at webperception.com; 'william(at)elan.net'
Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information

I would like to know how to get off this list also

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]
On Behalf Of PETER SKEELS
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 2:10 PM
To: william(at)elan.net
Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information

How do I get off this list???

______________________
Thank you,

Peter Skeels
WebPerception, LLC
"Your total resource for internet access and services."
1701 Novato Blvd., Suite 103, Novato, CA. 94947
voice 415.892.7711 ext. 13
voice 800.569.8062 ext. 13
fax   415.898.3974
peter at webperception.com
http://www.webperception.com

Our best advertising has always been referrals from customers so please
remember to mention WebPerception to your friends, colleagues, and
associates.



william(at)elan.net wrote:

>You're not required to provide your email address or phone for ARIN 
>reassignment records (yes, there are marketeers that will send postal
>mail advertisement, but that seems far from being serious issue).
>
>Phone and email are only required for contact information and that
>is optional and you can always choose to use your ISP's contact for 
>reassignment (in fact that is how its done for simple reassignment).
>
>On Mon, 10 Apr 2006, Gary Wall wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Hi Tom,
>>
>>I agree that there is a duty to be transparent. But open records are
>>abused by spammers and enforcement against them is like trying to get
>>the toothpaste back in the tube.  Maybe having a system that requires a
>>non-machine readable challenge-response like Godaddy or such might be
>>the solution for all parties that need to query this information. There
>>might be a backdoor for qualified parties on a need-to-know basis.
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>Gary
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Tom Vest
>>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 1:28 PM
>>To: ppml at arin.net
>>Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; Mark Erskine
>>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>>
>>If the information can be legitimately obscured, then it is only a
>>matter of time before the anonymity will be abused by unscrupulous
>>people.
>>
>>I think it would be prudent to take a letter from other "governance"
>>discussions, and strongly resist the temptation to combat "higher
>>level" abuses by imposing the enforcement burden on "lower level"
>>operations/administrative structures. ARIN and the RIRs are vested
>>with responsibility for maintaining records for number resources held
>>in public trust. If the records are abused, the specific abuses and
>>abusers should be targeted -- even if this is more difficult --
>>rather than taking the easy route of attacking the underlying systems.
>>
>>Tom
>>
>>On Apr 10, 2006, at 12:37 PM, G.Hiscott wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>if the information is available, then it is only a matter of time
>>>before it
>>>will be abused for marketing purposes by unscrupolous sales people.
>>>
>>>
>>>___
>>>www.keyconnect.com
>>>
>>>...... Original Message .......
>>>On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:23:34 -0400 "Mark Erskine"
>>><MErskine at HostDepot.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>I'll second that!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Mark Erskine
>>>>Host Depot, Inc.
>>>>http://www.HostDepot.com
>>>>Phone: 954.340.3527
>>>>Fax: 954.340.3539
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Barry Dykes
>>>>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:20 PM
>>>>Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; ppml at arin.net
>>>>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>>>>
>>>>I have to say that I do not agree with making everything public.
>>>>Spam
>>>>and phishing are one thing, but I pay a lot of money to get my
>>>>customers
>>>>and more to keep them.  I have no intention of posting that for any
>>>>competitor to browse.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Barry A. Dykes
>>>>VP Engineering/Operations
>>>>ViaWest Internet Services
>>>>bdykes at viawest.net
>>>>303-407-4708
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>      
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>
>>    
>>
>
>  
>

_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss


_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss





From mohamed at netelligent.ca  Mon Apr 10 17:29:56 2006
From: mohamed at netelligent.ca (Mohamed S.)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:29:56 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
In-Reply-To: <200604101620642.SM00588@bgdesk2>
References: <200604101620642.SM00588@bgdesk2>
Message-ID: <443ACE54.3050708@netelligent.ca>

Wow. You'd think no one's ever been on a mailing list before :) Just 
check the bottom of each email!

-- 
Mohamed Salameh <http://www.netelligent.ca>
Netelligent - Technology Director
514.369.2209

"How far that little candle throws his beams!
So shines a good deed in a naughty world."
-- W. Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice

Bruce Goldstein wrote:
> Ditto.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]
> On Behalf Of Hostmaster
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 4:13 PM
> To: peter at webperception.com; 'william(at)elan.net'
> Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
> 
> I would like to know how to get off this list also
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]
> On Behalf Of PETER SKEELS
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 2:10 PM
> To: william(at)elan.net
> Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
> 
> How do I get off this list???
> 
> ______________________
> Thank you,
> 
> Peter Skeels
> WebPerception, LLC
> "Your total resource for internet access and services."
> 1701 Novato Blvd., Suite 103, Novato, CA. 94947
> voice 415.892.7711 ext. 13
> voice 800.569.8062 ext. 13
> fax   415.898.3974
> peter at webperception.com
> http://www.webperception.com
> 
> Our best advertising has always been referrals from customers so please
> remember to mention WebPerception to your friends, colleagues, and
> associates.
> 
> 
> 
> william(at)elan.net wrote:
> 
>> You're not required to provide your email address or phone for ARIN 
>> reassignment records (yes, there are marketeers that will send postal
>> mail advertisement, but that seems far from being serious issue).
>>
>> Phone and email are only required for contact information and that
>> is optional and you can always choose to use your ISP's contact for 
>> reassignment (in fact that is how its done for simple reassignment).
>>
>> On Mon, 10 Apr 2006, Gary Wall wrote:
>>
>>  
>>
>>> Hi Tom,
>>>
>>> I agree that there is a duty to be transparent. But open records are
>>> abused by spammers and enforcement against them is like trying to get
>>> the toothpaste back in the tube.  Maybe having a system that requires a
>>> non-machine readable challenge-response like Godaddy or such might be
>>> the solution for all parties that need to query this information. There
>>> might be a backdoor for qualified parties on a need-to-know basis.
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Tom Vest
>>> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 1:28 PM
>>> To: ppml at arin.net
>>> Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; Mark Erskine
>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>>>
>>> If the information can be legitimately obscured, then it is only a
>>> matter of time before the anonymity will be abused by unscrupulous
>>> people.
>>>
>>> I think it would be prudent to take a letter from other "governance"
>>> discussions, and strongly resist the temptation to combat "higher
>>> level" abuses by imposing the enforcement burden on "lower level"
>>> operations/administrative structures. ARIN and the RIRs are vested
>>> with responsibility for maintaining records for number resources held
>>> in public trust. If the records are abused, the specific abuses and
>>> abusers should be targeted -- even if this is more difficult --
>>> rather than taking the easy route of attacking the underlying systems.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> On Apr 10, 2006, at 12:37 PM, G.Hiscott wrote:
>>>
>>>    
>>>
>>>> if the information is available, then it is only a matter of time
>>>> before it
>>>> will be abused for marketing purposes by unscrupolous sales people.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ___
>>>> www.keyconnect.com
>>>>
>>>> ...... Original Message .......
>>>> On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:23:34 -0400 "Mark Erskine"
>>>> <MErskine at HostDepot.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>      
>>>>
>>>>> I'll second that!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Mark Erskine
>>>>> Host Depot, Inc.
>>>>> http://www.HostDepot.com
>>>>> Phone: 954.340.3527
>>>>> Fax: 954.340.3539
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Barry Dykes
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:20 PM
>>>>> Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; ppml at arin.net
>>>>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>>>>>
>>>>> I have to say that I do not agree with making everything public.
>>>>> Spam
>>>>> and phishing are one thing, but I pay a lot of money to get my
>>>>> customers
>>>>> and more to keep them.  I have no intention of posting that for any
>>>>> competitor to browse.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Barry A. Dykes
>>>>> VP Engineering/Operations
>>>>> ViaWest Internet Services
>>>>> bdykes at viawest.net
>>>>> 303-407-4708
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>>> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>> _______________________________________________


From brian at semo.net  Mon Apr 10 17:32:09 2006
From: brian at semo.net (Brian Becker)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:32:09 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
Message-ID: <6228E442890CB046921789A332E8213B5B49A3@coda.timer>

One might wonder how someone with such limited abilities to read EVER
got on this list. 

(Typing from opening day at the NEW Busch Stadium on opening day).

Cards up by 2 bottom of the 4th. 

Brian 
--------------------------
Brian Becker
President, semo.net and TotallyFabricated.com

Sent from a wireless handheld device
  

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Sent: Mon Apr 10 16:18:34 2006
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information

Check the end of every message for the list URL.  This is how most
listserve systems function.

-Dane

--
Dane Jasper	Sonic.net, Inc.
(707)522-1000
mailto:dane at sonic.net			http://www.sonic.net/

Key fingerprint =  A5 D6 6E 16 D8 81 BA E9  CB BD A9 77 B3 AF 45 53 
_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss



From hostmaster at hostedsolutions.com  Mon Apr 10 17:50:30 2006
From: hostmaster at hostedsolutions.com (hostmaster at hostedsolutions.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 21:50:30 +0000
Subject: [arin-discuss] [OT] new subscribers (was: Privacy of Reassignment
	Information)
In-Reply-To: <6228E442890CB046921789A332E8213B5B49A3@coda.timer>
References: <6228E442890CB046921789A332E8213B5B49A3@coda.timer>
Message-ID: <20060410215030.GJ7614@hostedsolutions.com>

On Mon, Apr 10, 2006 at 04:32:09PM -0500, Brian Becker wrote:
> One might wonder how someone with such limited abilities to read EVER
> got on this list. 
> 
> (Typing from opening day at the NEW Busch Stadium on opening day).
> 
> Cards up by 2 bottom of the 4th. 

>From what I can tell, our hostmaster role alias just started
receiving these messages out of the blue a week ago. I'm thinking
maybe somebody did a mass-import subscription or got some mailman
database cross-contamination? I just chalked it up to me missing an
announcement about it, and the discussions were intruiging enough
that I didn't unsubscribe right away, but the flood of unsub reqs is
making me suspect otherwise now...
-- 
Jeremy Stanley, Information Security Specialist, Hosted Solutions
For support, E-mail support at hostedsolutions.com, call
+1-919-573-0700 or visit http://www.hostedsolutions.com/


From dsd at servervault.com  Mon Apr 10 18:03:19 2006
From: dsd at servervault.com (Divins, David)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:03:19 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] [OT] new subscribers (was: Privacy of
	ReassignmentInformation)
Message-ID: <F8B974E70BDE1745ABB27AF04788FA0001E811B1@mail1.dulles.sv.int>

Actually, the reason for the recent flood is this mailing list is rarely
used -- see archive stats.  This is the first post in a long time.  I
accidently sent to arin-discuss when I meant to send it to ppml (arin
policy list).

-dsd 


David Divins
Principal Engineer
ServerVault Corp.
(703) 652-5955
-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of
hostmaster at hostedsolutions.com
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 5:51 PM
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: [arin-discuss] [OT] new subscribers (was: Privacy of
ReassignmentInformation)

On Mon, Apr 10, 2006 at 04:32:09PM -0500, Brian Becker wrote:
> One might wonder how someone with such limited abilities to read EVER 
> got on this list.
> 
> (Typing from opening day at the NEW Busch Stadium on opening day).
> 
> Cards up by 2 bottom of the 4th. 

>From what I can tell, our hostmaster role alias just started
receiving these messages out of the blue a week ago. I'm thinking maybe
somebody did a mass-import subscription or got some mailman database
cross-contamination? I just chalked it up to me missing an announcement
about it, and the discussions were intruiging enough that I didn't
unsubscribe right away, but the flood of unsub reqs is making me suspect
otherwise now...
--
Jeremy Stanley, Information Security Specialist, Hosted Solutions For
support, E-mail support at hostedsolutions.com, call
+1-919-573-0700 or visit http://www.hostedsolutions.com/
_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss


From lorend at diodecom.net  Mon Apr 10 17:58:35 2006
From: lorend at diodecom.net (Loren Duerksen)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:58:35 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] do not e-mail list
Message-ID: <443AD50B.9020406@diodecom.net>

How do I get off this list, if there is a "do not e-mail me list" please 
put me on it!!!!


From jordan at propelwireless.com  Mon Apr 10 18:00:18 2006
From: jordan at propelwireless.com (Jordan Smith)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:00:18 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] unsubscribe
Message-ID: <E24924E8132370468D02648A0709C84C0150C6@server.propelwireless.local>

unsubscribe

 

 

 

________________________________

 
 

________________________________

 

 

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From rolando.lozano at vitacom.com  Mon Apr 10 18:08:05 2006
From: rolando.lozano at vitacom.com (Rolando Lozano)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:08:05 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <E24924E8132370468D02648A0709C84C0150C6@server.propelwireless.local>
Message-ID: <200604101508673.SM01496@rolozti5xaquah>

 

unsubscribe

 

 

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From klange at usinternet.com  Mon Apr 10 18:08:33 2006
From: klange at usinternet.com (Kurt Lange)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:08:33 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <12509624.1144706610475.JavaMail.root@sniper35>
Message-ID: <02b401c65ceb$4e8d7080$3100010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>

unsubscribe

 

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From james at towardex.com  Mon Apr 10 18:12:58 2006
From: james at towardex.com (James Jun)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:12:58 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <E24924E8132370468D02648A0709C84C0150C6@server.propelwireless.local>
Message-ID: <20060410221002.C3C606D4BA@mx01.bos.ma.towardex.com>

Good lord, can people take 2 second of their time to *read* the bottom of
the email, where it says:

 

8<--

ARIN-discuss mailing list

ARIN-discuss at arin.net

http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss

-->8

 

You can unsubscribe all you want there.

 

 

James Jun

IP Infrastructure & Technology Services

TowardEX Technologies, Inc.

WWW: http://www.towardex.com

Email: james at towardex.com

Office: +1 (617) 459-4051 Ext. 179

Mobile: +1 (978) 394-2867

  _____  

From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]
On Behalf Of Jordan Smith
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 6:00 PM
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: [arin-discuss] unsubscribe

 

unsubscribe

 

 

 

  _____  


 

  _____  

 

 

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From fnelson at gapublicweb.net  Mon Apr 10 18:10:48 2006
From: fnelson at gapublicweb.net (Frank Nelson)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:10:48 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe
Message-ID: <B5B51C7C4BD90E42A66E866B61F598634C1069@cluster2.gpw.gapublicweb.net>

unsubscribe
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Rolando Lozano [mailto:rolando.lozano at vitacom.com]
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 6:08 PM
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: [arin-discuss] unsubscribe



 

unsubscribe

 

 

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From Eric at BrevardWireless.com  Mon Apr 10 18:11:32 2006
From: Eric at BrevardWireless.com (Eric Welborn)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:11:32 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
Message-ID: <7CFD6AA5DFABDD458908391BD18B958EAC7E78@look-e1.SoftTech.net>

I second that, please remove me as well.

-----Original Message-----
From: PETER SKEELS [mailto:peter at webperception.com] 
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 5:10 PM
To: william(at)elan.net
Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information

How do I get off this list???

______________________
Thank you,

Peter Skeels
WebPerception, LLC
"Your total resource for internet access and services."
1701 Novato Blvd., Suite 103, Novato, CA. 94947
voice 415.892.7711 ext. 13
voice 800.569.8062 ext. 13
fax   415.898.3974
peter at webperception.com
http://www.webperception.com

Our best advertising has always been referrals from customers so please
remember to mention WebPerception to your friends, colleagues, and
associates.



william(at)elan.net wrote:

>You're not required to provide your email address or phone for ARIN 
>reassignment records (yes, there are marketeers that will send postal
>mail advertisement, but that seems far from being serious issue).
>
>Phone and email are only required for contact information and that
>is optional and you can always choose to use your ISP's contact for 
>reassignment (in fact that is how its done for simple reassignment).
>
>On Mon, 10 Apr 2006, Gary Wall wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Hi Tom,
>>
>>I agree that there is a duty to be transparent. But open records are
>>abused by spammers and enforcement against them is like trying to get
>>the toothpaste back in the tube.  Maybe having a system that requires a
>>non-machine readable challenge-response like Godaddy or such might be
>>the solution for all parties that need to query this information. There
>>might be a backdoor for qualified parties on a need-to-know basis.
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>Gary
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Tom Vest
>>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 1:28 PM
>>To: ppml at arin.net
>>Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; Mark Erskine
>>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>>
>>If the information can be legitimately obscured, then it is only a
>>matter of time before the anonymity will be abused by unscrupulous
>>people.
>>
>>I think it would be prudent to take a letter from other "governance"
>>discussions, and strongly resist the temptation to combat "higher
>>level" abuses by imposing the enforcement burden on "lower level"
>>operations/administrative structures. ARIN and the RIRs are vested
>>with responsibility for maintaining records for number resources held
>>in public trust. If the records are abused, the specific abuses and
>>abusers should be targeted -- even if this is more difficult --
>>rather than taking the easy route of attacking the underlying systems.
>>
>>Tom
>>
>>On Apr 10, 2006, at 12:37 PM, G.Hiscott wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>if the information is available, then it is only a matter of time
>>>before it
>>>will be abused for marketing purposes by unscrupolous sales people.
>>>
>>>
>>>___
>>>www.keyconnect.com
>>>
>>>...... Original Message .......
>>>On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:23:34 -0400 "Mark Erskine"
>>><MErskine at HostDepot.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>I'll second that!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Mark Erskine
>>>>Host Depot, Inc.
>>>>http://www.HostDepot.com
>>>>Phone: 954.340.3527
>>>>Fax: 954.340.3539
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Barry Dykes
>>>>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:20 PM
>>>>Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; ppml at arin.net
>>>>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>>>>
>>>>I have to say that I do not agree with making everything public.
>>>>Spam
>>>>and phishing are one thing, but I pay a lot of money to get my
>>>>customers
>>>>and more to keep them.  I have no intention of posting that for any
>>>>competitor to browse.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Barry A. Dykes
>>>>VP Engineering/Operations
>>>>ViaWest Internet Services
>>>>bdykes at viawest.net
>>>>303-407-4708
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>      
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>
>>    
>>
>
>  
>

_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss




From greg at jaguarpc.com  Mon Apr 10 18:17:47 2006
From: greg at jaguarpc.com (Greg)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:17:47 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <B5B51C7C4BD90E42A66E866B61F598634C1069@cluster2.gpw.gapublicweb.net>
References: <B5B51C7C4BD90E42A66E866B61F598634C1069@cluster2.gpw.gapublicweb.net>
Message-ID: <443AD98B.3060808@jaguarpc.com>

unsubscribe

Frank Nelson wrote:

> unsubscribe
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* Rolando Lozano [mailto:rolando.lozano at vitacom.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, April 10, 2006 6:08 PM
> *To:* ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> *Subject:* [arin-discuss] unsubscribe
>
>  
>
> unsubscribe
>
>  
>
>  
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>  
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>  
>


From MErskine at HostDepot.com  Mon Apr 10 18:21:30 2006
From: MErskine at HostDepot.com (Mark Erskine)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:21:30 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe
Message-ID: <A56FA4761A07414EB8196CB211F206D662C70B@hdflex00.fl.hostdepot.net>

 
unsubscribe

Thanks, 
Mark Erskine 
Host Depot, Inc. 
http://www.HostDepot.com 
Phone: 954.340.3527 
Fax: 954.340.3539 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Greg
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 6:18 PM
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe

unsubscribe

Frank Nelson wrote:

> unsubscribe
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* Rolando Lozano [mailto:rolando.lozano at vitacom.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, April 10, 2006 6:08 PM
> *To:* ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> *Subject:* [arin-discuss] unsubscribe
>
>  
>
> unsubscribe
>
>  
>
>  
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>
>_______________________________________________
>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>  
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>
>_______________________________________________
>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>  
>
_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss


From JMoberly at wercs.com  Mon Apr 10 18:23:08 2006
From: JMoberly at wercs.com (James Moberly)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:23:08 -0600
Subject: [arin-discuss]  FW:  unsubscribe
Message-ID: <0DF456009FAA2341BE4DF4712DF61807016710B2@exch01.wercs.com>

unsubscribe

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From todd at venturenet.net  Mon Apr 10 18:23:56 2006
From: todd at venturenet.net (Ellison, Todd)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:23:56 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <A56FA4761A07414EB8196CB211F206D662C70B@hdflex00.fl.hostdepot.net>
Message-ID: <H0000067002b6c07.1144707834.ox.venturenet.net@MHS>

Good lord all of you people.  Have you tried clicking the link at the bottom of the email?  Click on this: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss or copy and paste it into your web browser. There's a big button for unsubscribe and all you have to know is your email address.

Sheesh

T

> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net 
> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] 
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 5:22 PM
> To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
> 
> 
>  
> unsubscribe
> 
> Thanks, 
> Mark Erskine 
> Host Depot, Inc. 
> http://www.HostDepot.com 
> Phone: 954.340.3527 
> Fax: 954.340.3539 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Greg
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 6:18 PM
> To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
> 
> unsubscribe
> 
> Frank Nelson wrote:
> 
> > unsubscribe
> >  
> > -----Original Message-----
> > *From:* Rolando Lozano [mailto:rolando.lozano at vitacom.com]
> > *Sent:* Monday, April 10, 2006 6:08 PM
> > *To:* ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> > *Subject:* [arin-discuss] unsubscribe
> >
> >  
> >
> > unsubscribe
> >
> >  
> >
> >  
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> >-
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >ARIN-discuss mailing list
> >ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> >http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> >  
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> >-
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >ARIN-discuss mailing list
> >ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> >http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> >  
> >
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> 
> 


From greg.swift at gvtc.net  Mon Apr 10 18:28:45 2006
From: greg.swift at gvtc.net (Greg Swift)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:28:45 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] how to get off the list (or un-subscribe)
Message-ID: <443ADC1D.3090501@gvtc.net>

For those of you who got on this list and are not somehow not 
technically competent enough to realize that mailing lists are not 
manually administered, or read the tail end of every message that point 
you to a web page (http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss) 
where you can unsubscribe.. here is a quick run down of the procedure:

1: Click this link: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
2: Put in your e-mail address in the "unsubscribe" section, and click 
the "unsubscribe" button.
3: This will take you to another page asking for your password, if you 
know your password skip to step 7
4: If you don't know you password click the "Remind" button
5: Check your e-mail, and then copy the password from the e-mail (i hope 
you know how to do this).
6: Go back to the webpage that was asking for your password
7: Paste your password into the "Password" field
8: Click "Unsubscribe"


is that really so hard????? yeash..



From kevinw at telnetww.com  Mon Apr 10 18:28:03 2006
From: kevinw at telnetww.com (Kevin Warwashana)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:28:03 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <H0000067002b6c07.1144707834.ox.venturenet.net@MHS>
Message-ID: <002001c65cee$084c0750$0b00a8c0@kwlaptopnew>

And for the super lazy people:

To unsubscribe from any ARIN Mailing List, send an e-mail to
[listname]-unsubscribe at arin.net from your subscribed e-mail account, with
the word "unsubscribe" in the BODY of the message.



-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]
On Behalf Of Ellison, Todd
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 6:24 PM
To: ARIN-discuss
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe

Good lord all of you people.  Have you tried clicking the link at the bottom
of the email?  Click on this:
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss or copy and paste it
into your web browser. There's a big button for unsubscribe and all you have
to know is your email address.

Sheesh

T

> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net 
> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] 
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 5:22 PM
> To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
> 
> 
>  
> unsubscribe
> 
> Thanks, 
> Mark Erskine 
> Host Depot, Inc. 
> http://www.HostDepot.com 
> Phone: 954.340.3527 
> Fax: 954.340.3539 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Greg
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 6:18 PM
> To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
> 
> unsubscribe
> 
> Frank Nelson wrote:
> 
> > unsubscribe
> >  
> > -----Original Message-----
> > *From:* Rolando Lozano [mailto:rolando.lozano at vitacom.com]
> > *Sent:* Monday, April 10, 2006 6:08 PM
> > *To:* ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> > *Subject:* [arin-discuss] unsubscribe
> >
> >  
> >
> > unsubscribe
> >
> >  
> >
> >  
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> >-
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >ARIN-discuss mailing list
> >ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> >http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> >  
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> >-
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >ARIN-discuss mailing list
> >ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> >http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> >  
> >
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> 
> 
_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss



From techsupport at nspof.com  Mon Apr 10 18:28:31 2006
From: techsupport at nspof.com (NSPOF-Tech Support)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:28:31 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe
Message-ID: <F074AE7A3547254A978F48F79187BAB6018FFB33@houex1.NSPOF.COM>

unsubscribe

 
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From RonH at gvni.net  Mon Apr 10 19:05:41 2006
From: RonH at gvni.net (Ron Harvey)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:05:41 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe
Message-ID: <2137EE6C85F33B439D968120989760AD01D2508F@ems2.evanscompanies.net>

unsubscribe
 
 
Ron Harvey
Director, ISP Networks
Global Valley Networks
(209) 394-0228 p
(209) 892-0228 p
(209) 394-0328 f
(209) 605-6669 c

	-----Original Message-----
	From: NSPOF-Tech Support [mailto:techsupport at nspof.com] 
	Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 3:29 PM
	To: NSPOF-Tech Support; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
	Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
	
	
	unsubscribe

	 

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From cgettings at videonext.com  Mon Apr 10 19:10:06 2006
From: cgettings at videonext.com (Chris Gettings)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:10:06 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <2137EE6C85F33B439D968120989760AD01D2508F@ems2.evanscompanies.net>
Message-ID: <C0605E0E.93D5%cgettings@videonext.com>

Wow these folks are all ISPs aren?t they? Its a wonder that internet thing
runs at all.


On 4/10/06 7:05 PM, "Ron Harvey" <RonH at gvni.net> wrote:

> unsubscribe
>  
>  
> Ron Harvey
> Director, ISP Networks
> Global Valley Networks
> (209) 394-0228 p
> (209) 892-0228 p
> (209) 394-0328 f
> (209) 605-6669 c
>>  
>>  
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NSPOF-Tech  Support [mailto:techsupport at nspof.com]
>> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006  3:29 PM
>> To: NSPOF-Tech Support;  ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe
>> 
>>  
>> unsubscribe
>> 
>>  
>>  
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss


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From Leigh at donet.com  Mon Apr 10 19:26:45 2006
From: Leigh at donet.com (Leigh Sandy)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:26:45 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe
Message-ID: <B053705E499F174C978C191A998044AB01E98ABA@rotten.internal.donet.com>

We are all too busy deleting spam and keeping things running...


-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chris Gettings
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 7:10 PM
To: Ron Harvey; NSPOF-Tech Support; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe


Wow these folks are all ISPs aren't they? Its a wonder that internet
thing runs at all.


On 4/10/06 7:05 PM, "Ron Harvey" <RonH at gvni.net> wrote:



unsubscribe

 
Ron Harvey
Director, ISP Networks
Global Valley Networks
(209) 394-0228 p
(209) 892-0228 p
(209) 394-0328 f
(209) 605-6669 c



 
-----Original Message-----
From: NSPOF-Tech  Support [mailto:techsupport at nspof.com] 
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006  3:29 PM
To: NSPOF-Tech Support;  ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe


unsubscribe

 
 




  _____  

_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss





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From rperry at nustream.com  Mon Apr 10 19:27:40 2006
From: rperry at nustream.com (Bob Perry )
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:27:40 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
In-Reply-To: <443AC98F.5070205@webperception.com>
Message-ID: <20060410192685.SM01752@zingbanger>

unsubscribe

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]
On Behalf Of PETER SKEELS
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 5:10 PM
To: william(at)elan.net
Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information

How do I get off this list???

______________________
Thank you,

Peter Skeels
WebPerception, LLC
"Your total resource for internet access and services."
1701 Novato Blvd., Suite 103, Novato, CA. 94947
voice 415.892.7711 ext. 13
voice 800.569.8062 ext. 13
fax   415.898.3974
peter at webperception.com
http://www.webperception.com

Our best advertising has always been referrals from customers so please
remember to mention WebPerception to your friends, colleagues, and
associates.



william(at)elan.net wrote:

>You're not required to provide your email address or phone for ARIN 
>reassignment records (yes, there are marketeers that will send postal
>mail advertisement, but that seems far from being serious issue).
>
>Phone and email are only required for contact information and that
>is optional and you can always choose to use your ISP's contact for 
>reassignment (in fact that is how its done for simple reassignment).
>
>On Mon, 10 Apr 2006, Gary Wall wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Hi Tom,
>>
>>I agree that there is a duty to be transparent. But open records are
>>abused by spammers and enforcement against them is like trying to get
>>the toothpaste back in the tube.  Maybe having a system that requires a
>>non-machine readable challenge-response like Godaddy or such might be
>>the solution for all parties that need to query this information. There
>>might be a backdoor for qualified parties on a need-to-know basis.
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>Gary
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Tom Vest
>>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 1:28 PM
>>To: ppml at arin.net
>>Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; Mark Erskine
>>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>>
>>If the information can be legitimately obscured, then it is only a
>>matter of time before the anonymity will be abused by unscrupulous
>>people.
>>
>>I think it would be prudent to take a letter from other "governance"
>>discussions, and strongly resist the temptation to combat "higher
>>level" abuses by imposing the enforcement burden on "lower level"
>>operations/administrative structures. ARIN and the RIRs are vested
>>with responsibility for maintaining records for number resources held
>>in public trust. If the records are abused, the specific abuses and
>>abusers should be targeted -- even if this is more difficult --
>>rather than taking the easy route of attacking the underlying systems.
>>
>>Tom
>>
>>On Apr 10, 2006, at 12:37 PM, G.Hiscott wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>if the information is available, then it is only a matter of time
>>>before it
>>>will be abused for marketing purposes by unscrupolous sales people.
>>>
>>>
>>>___
>>>www.keyconnect.com
>>>
>>>...... Original Message .......
>>>On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:23:34 -0400 "Mark Erskine"
>>><MErskine at HostDepot.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>I'll second that!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Mark Erskine
>>>>Host Depot, Inc.
>>>>http://www.HostDepot.com
>>>>Phone: 954.340.3527
>>>>Fax: 954.340.3539
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Barry Dykes
>>>>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:20 PM
>>>>Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; ppml at arin.net
>>>>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>>>>
>>>>I have to say that I do not agree with making everything public.
>>>>Spam
>>>>and phishing are one thing, but I pay a lot of money to get my
>>>>customers
>>>>and more to keep them.  I have no intention of posting that for any
>>>>competitor to browse.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Barry A. Dykes
>>>>VP Engineering/Operations
>>>>ViaWest Internet Services
>>>>bdykes at viawest.net
>>>>303-407-4708
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>      
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>
>>    
>>
>
>  
>

_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss





From rperry at nustream.com  Mon Apr 10 19:28:30 2006
From: rperry at nustream.com (Bob Perry )
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:28:30 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] unsubscribe
Message-ID: <200604101927428.SM01752@zingbanger>

unsubscribe

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From Virgilio_Castillo at codetel.com.do  Mon Apr 10 20:27:51 2006
From: Virgilio_Castillo at codetel.com.do (Virgilio_Castillo at codetel.com.do)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:27:51 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
Message-ID: <OF5CC4E48B.E0BA1384-ON0525714D.00028338-0525714D.00028C47@corp.codetel.com.do>

Please take me out of this list.





"Hostmaster" <hostmaster at ccom.net>
Sent by: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
04/10/2006 04:12 PM

 
        To:     <peter at webperception.com>, "'william(at)elan.net'" <william at elan.net>
        cc:     ARIN-discuss at arin.net
        Subject:        Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information


I would like to know how to get off this list also

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]
On Behalf Of PETER SKEELS
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 2:10 PM
To: william(at)elan.net
Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information

How do I get off this list???

______________________
Thank you,

Peter Skeels
WebPerception, LLC
"Your total resource for internet access and services."
1701 Novato Blvd., Suite 103, Novato, CA. 94947
voice 415.892.7711 ext. 13
voice 800.569.8062 ext. 13
fax   415.898.3974
peter at webperception.com
http://www.webperception.com

Our best advertising has always been referrals from customers so please
remember to mention WebPerception to your friends, colleagues, and
associates.



william(at)elan.net wrote:

>You're not required to provide your email address or phone for ARIN 
>reassignment records (yes, there are marketeers that will send postal
>mail advertisement, but that seems far from being serious issue).
>
>Phone and email are only required for contact information and that
>is optional and you can always choose to use your ISP's contact for 
>reassignment (in fact that is how its done for simple reassignment).
>
>On Mon, 10 Apr 2006, Gary Wall wrote:
>
> 
>
>>Hi Tom,
>>
>>I agree that there is a duty to be transparent. But open records are
>>abused by spammers and enforcement against them is like trying to get
>>the toothpaste back in the tube.  Maybe having a system that requires a
>>non-machine readable challenge-response like Godaddy or such might be
>>the solution for all parties that need to query this information. There
>>might be a backdoor for qualified parties on a need-to-know basis.
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>Gary
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Tom Vest
>>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 1:28 PM
>>To: ppml at arin.net
>>Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; Mark Erskine
>>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>>
>>If the information can be legitimately obscured, then it is only a
>>matter of time before the anonymity will be abused by unscrupulous
>>people.
>>
>>I think it would be prudent to take a letter from other "governance"
>>discussions, and strongly resist the temptation to combat "higher
>>level" abuses by imposing the enforcement burden on "lower level"
>>operations/administrative structures. ARIN and the RIRs are vested
>>with responsibility for maintaining records for number resources held
>>in public trust. If the records are abused, the specific abuses and
>>abusers should be targeted -- even if this is more difficult --
>>rather than taking the easy route of attacking the underlying systems.
>>
>>Tom
>>
>>On Apr 10, 2006, at 12:37 PM, G.Hiscott wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>>>if the information is available, then it is only a matter of time
>>>before it
>>>will be abused for marketing purposes by unscrupolous sales people.
>>>
>>>
>>>___
>>>www.keyconnect.com
>>>
>>>...... Original Message .......
>>>On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:23:34 -0400 "Mark Erskine"
>>><MErskine at HostDepot.com>
>>>wrote:
>>> 
>>>
>>>>I'll second that!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Mark Erskine
>>>>Host Depot, Inc.
>>>>http://www.HostDepot.com
>>>>Phone: 954.340.3527
>>>>Fax: 954.340.3539
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Barry Dykes
>>>>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:20 PM
>>>>Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; ppml at arin.net
>>>>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>>>>
>>>>I have to say that I do not agree with making everything public.
>>>>Spam
>>>>and phishing are one thing, but I pay a lot of money to get my
>>>>customers
>>>>and more to keep them.  I have no intention of posting that for any
>>>>competitor to browse.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Barry A. Dykes
>>>>VP Engineering/Operations
>>>>ViaWest Internet Services
>>>>bdykes at viawest.net
>>>>303-407-4708
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>> 
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>
>> 
>>
>
> 
>

_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss


_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss




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This message may contain information that is priviliged and confidential. It is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, reproduction or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  If this is the case, please proceed to destroy the message from your computer and inform the sender through reply mail. Information in this message that does not directly relate to the official business of the company shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it.

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From RonH at gvni.net  Mon Apr 10 19:35:36 2006
From: RonH at gvni.net (Ron Harvey)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:35:36 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe
Message-ID: <2137EE6C85F33B439D968120989760AD01D25092@ems2.evanscompanies.net>

so true
 
 
Ron Harvey
Director, ISP Networks
Global Valley Networks
(209) 394-0228 p
(209) 892-0228 p
(209) 394-0328 f
(209) 605-6669 c

	-----Original Message-----
	From: Leigh Sandy [mailto:Leigh at donet.com] 
	Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 4:27 PM
	To: Ron Harvey; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
	Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
	
	
	We are all too busy deleting spam and keeping things running...
	

		-----Original Message-----
		From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chris Gettings
		Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 7:10 PM
		To: Ron Harvey; NSPOF-Tech Support;
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
		Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
		
		
		Wow these folks are all ISPs aren't they? Its a wonder
that internet thing runs at all.
		
		
		On 4/10/06 7:05 PM, "Ron Harvey" <RonH at gvni.net> wrote:
		
		

			unsubscribe
			
			 
			Ron Harvey
			Director, ISP Networks
			Global Valley Networks
			(209) 394-0228 p
			(209) 892-0228 p
			(209) 394-0328 f
			(209) 605-6669 c
			

				
				 
				-----Original Message-----
				From: NSPOF-Tech  Support
[mailto:techsupport at nspof.com] 
				Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006  3:29 PM
				To: NSPOF-Tech Support;
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
				Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW:
unsubscribe
				
				
				unsubscribe
				
				 
				 
				

			
			
  _____  

			_______________________________________________
			ARIN-discuss mailing list
			ARIN-discuss at arin.net
	
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
			

		
		

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From bruce at maxuptime.com  Mon Apr 10 19:43:44 2006
From: bruce at maxuptime.com (Bruce Goldstein)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:43:44 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] unsubscribe
Message-ID: <01c001c65cf8$9b213f50$6800a8c0@bruce>

unsubscribe

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From paul at hostdime.com  Mon Apr 10 19:45:16 2006
From: paul at hostdime.com (Paul Fleming)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:45:16 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <2137EE6C85F33B439D968120989760AD01D25092@ems2.evanscompanies.net>
References: <2137EE6C85F33B439D968120989760AD01D25092@ems2.evanscompanies.net>
Message-ID: <443AEE0C.3000705@hostdime.com>

Move/Delete mail where to='ARIN-discuss at arin.net'
Then you can go home for the day
Ron Harvey wrote:

> so true
> *Ron Harvey*
> *Director, ISP Networks*
> *Global Valley Networks*
> *(209) 394-0228 p*
> *(209) 892-0228 p*
> *(209) 394-0328 f*
> *(209) 605-6669 c*
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     *From:* Leigh Sandy [mailto:Leigh at donet.com]
>     *Sent:* Monday, April 10, 2006 4:27 PM
>     *To:* Ron Harvey; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>     *Subject:* RE: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
>
>     We are all too busy deleting spam and keeping things running...
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>         *From:* arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>         [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] *On Behalf Of *Chris
>         Gettings
>         *Sent:* Monday, April 10, 2006 7:10 PM
>         *To:* Ron Harvey; NSPOF-Tech Support; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>         *Subject:* Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
>
>         Wow these folks are all ISPs aren?t they? Its a wonder that
>         internet thing runs at all.
>
>
>         On 4/10/06 7:05 PM, "Ron Harvey" <RonH at gvni.net> wrote:
>
>             unsubscribe
>
>
>             *Ron Harvey
>             Director, ISP Networks
>             Global Valley Networks
>             (209) 394-0228 p
>             (209) 892-0228 p
>             (209) 394-0328 f
>             (209) 605-6669 c
>             *
>
>
>
>                 -----Original Message-----
>                 *From:* NSPOF-Tech Support
>                 [mailto:techsupport at nspof.com]
>                 <mailto:techsupport at nspof.com%5D>
>                 *Sent:* Monday, April 10, 2006 3:29 PM
>                 *To:* NSPOF-Tech Support; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>                 *Subject:* Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
>
>
>                 unsubscribe
>
>
>
>
>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>             _______________________________________________
>             ARIN-discuss mailing list
>             ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>             http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>  
>



From brad at vortechhosting.com  Mon Apr 10 19:47:51 2006
From: brad at vortechhosting.com (Brad Pugh)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:47:51 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss]  unsubscribe
Message-ID: <9F24CFC4C14AA141AD4503E0DBAF143A341F40@pdc.vortechexchange.com>

 

 

Thanks

Brad

Vortech Inc.

HYPERLINK "http://www.vortechhosting.com/"http://www.vortechhosting.com

   _____  

From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Bruce Goldstein
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 7:44 PM
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: [arin-discuss] unsubscribe

 

unsubscribe


--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.0/306 - Release Date: 4/9/2006



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.0/306 - Release Date: 4/9/2006
 
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From bruce at maxuptime.com  Mon Apr 10 20:01:37 2006
From: bruce at maxuptime.com (Bruce Goldstein)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:01:37 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] YOU CANNOT UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST BY
	E-MAILING THE LIST!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <02fc01c65cf9$21b8f760$66bc60cc@websrvr01>
Message-ID: <01d101c65cfb$1a7bb760$6800a8c0@bruce>

I clicked the link and it didn't work.  I have yet to receive my password
after pressing the "remind" button over 2 hours ago.

Only god knows how I ever got on this damn list in the first place.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Hrbek [mailto:bhrbek at jagwireless.net] 
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 6:48 PM
To: Bruce Goldstein; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: YOU CANNOT UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST BY E-MAILING THE LIST!!!!!

PLEASE.....  stop this!!!

Click the link at the bottom of the page!!!   How can any of these people be

"Technical"????????




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Goldstein" <bruce at maxuptime.com>
To: <ARIN-discuss at arin.net>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 6:43 PM
Subject: [arin-discuss] unsubscribe


> unsubscribe
>
>


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----


> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> 




From john.wheeler at unicel.com  Mon Apr 10 20:06:49 2006
From: john.wheeler at unicel.com (John J. Wheeler III)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:06:49 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] unsubscribe
Message-ID: <9DAD90B54DA64D458542FE3B538416342CA3B4@rccs4.intrcc.com>

Unsubscribe

-----Original Message-----
From: "arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net" <arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net>
Sent: 4/10/2006 6:43:44 PM
To: <ARIN-discuss at arin.net>
Subject: [arin-discuss] unsubscribe

unsubscribe
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From robert.lott at cingular.com  Mon Apr 10 21:01:28 2006
From: robert.lott at cingular.com (Lott, Robert)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 21:01:28 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] unsubscribe
Message-ID: <89FF908B1A615D49B6EC798A255CDF883991B7@WWDCEXCH02.US.Cingular.Net>

Unsubscribe 

 

 

________________________________

From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of John J. Wheeler III
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 8:07 PM
To: 'arin-discuss at arin.net'
Subject: [arin-discuss] unsubscribe

 

Unsubscribe 

-----Original Message----- 
From: "arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net" <arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net> 
Sent: 4/10/2006 6:43:44 PM 
To: <ARIN-discuss at arin.net> 
Subject: [arin-discuss] unsubscribe 

unsubscribe 

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From owenc at hubris.net  Mon Apr 10 21:02:06 2006
From: owenc at hubris.net (Chris Owen)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 20:02:06 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] YOU CANNOT UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST BY
	E-MAILING THE LIST!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <01d101c65cfb$1a7bb760$6800a8c0@bruce>
References: <01d101c65cfb$1a7bb760$6800a8c0@bruce>
Message-ID: <813B878E-022C-4CCA-A967-D6121C452366@hubris.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Apr 10, 2006, at 7:01 PM, Bruce Goldstein wrote:

> I clicked the link and it didn't work.  I have yet to receive my  
> password
> after pressing the "remind" button over 2 hours ago.

The mailing list machine is probably collapsing under its own weight  
as it tries to send out 1.4 million "unsubscribe" emails sent by  
people on the list who couldn't follow directions.

Following the directions may or may not work but what is guaranteed  
not to work is sending an email (or any kind) to this mailing list.   
Doing so only compounds the problem by sending mail out to thousands  
of innocent bystanders none of which can do anything at all to get  
you off the list.

I'd have thought Mailman was probably reasonably familiar to people  
on an ARIN mailing list (however they got there) since it runs a lot  
of lists including NANOG and Sourceforge.  However, if you aren't  
familiar with it do a little research and find out what you need to  
do.  45 seconds with Google:

http://www.google.com/search?q=unsubscribe+mailman

would tell you that in addition to the listed link on every email  
which is:

http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss

you _should_ be able to unsubscribe by sending an email to arin- 
discuss-leave at arin.net.  Start a new blank email.  Do NOT reply to  
this email for fear you will post back to the list.

If neither of these options work then something is wrong at ARIN (and  
obviously something _is_ wrong because they have a list with all  
these people subscribed without their consent).  In that case you can  
also email ARIN-discuss at arin.net which _should_ go to a human.  The  
above administrative link also lists postmaster at arin.net as another  
contact.

However, if none of these options work there is absolutely no point  
in sending an email to arin-discuss at arin.net complaining about the  
problem.  Doing so doesn't help you get off the list and only  
compounds the problem.  Today's shit storm was 100% about all these  
damned unsubscribe emails.  Absent that there really wouldn't be a  
problem.

As Steven Wright says, don't be part of the precipitate.

Chris

- --
Chris Owen
President
Hubris Communications
www.hubris.net

"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not to argue about it
or spend time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it."
   -- D.L. Moody



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From lesmith at ecsis.net  Mon Apr 10 21:17:11 2006
From: lesmith at ecsis.net (Larry Smith)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 20:17:11 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] YOU CANNOT UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST BY
	E-MAILING THE LIST!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <813B878E-022C-4CCA-A967-D6121C452366@hubris.net>
References: <01d101c65cfb$1a7bb760$6800a8c0@bruce>
	<813B878E-022C-4CCA-A967-D6121C452366@hubris.net>
Message-ID: <200604102017.11744.lesmith@ecsis.net>

On Monday 10 April 2006 20:02, Chris Owen wrote:
> If neither of these options work then something is wrong at ARIN (and
> obviously something _is_ wrong because they have a list with all
> these people subscribed without their consent). 

Actually they probably got "subscribed" by having either IP space, AS number 
or something else from ARIN which asks if you want (I believe from memory)   
an arin-discuss membership - and they either did not pay attention (read the 
fine print) or did not "care" at the time (just wanted their IP space or AS 
or whatever) and clicked "yes"....

-- 
Larry Smith
SysAd ECSIS.NET
sysad at ecsis.net




From lesmith at ecsis.net  Mon Apr 10 21:22:57 2006
From: lesmith at ecsis.net (Larry Smith)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 20:22:57 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] YOU CANNOT UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST BY
	E-MAILING THE LIST!!!!! 33557
In-Reply-To: <813B878E-022C-4CCA-A967-D6121C452366@hubris.net>
References: <01d101c65cfb$1a7bb760$6800a8c0@bruce>
	<813B878E-022C-4CCA-A967-D6121C452366@hubris.net>
Message-ID: <200604102022.57925.lesmith@ecsis.net>

On Monday 10 April 2006 20:02, Chris Owen wrote:
> If neither of these options work then something is wrong at ARIN (and
> obviously something _is_ wrong because they have a list with all
> these people subscribed without their consent). 

Actually they probably got "subscribed" by having either IP space, AS number 
or something else from ARIN which asks if you want (I believe from memory)   
an arin-discuss membership - and they either did not pay attention (read the 
fine print) or did not "care" at the time (just wanted their IP space or AS 
or whatever) and clicked "yes"....

-- 
Larry Smith
SysAd ECSIS.NET
sysad at ecsis.net




From schoen.kevin at acd.net  Tue Apr 11 08:42:46 2006
From: schoen.kevin at acd.net (Kevin Schoen)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 08:42:46 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe
Message-ID: <ECD843B059065E4B8E1324C21D5E7DD701C48D24@sirius.acdadmin.net>

unsubscribe

 

________________________________

From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Ron Harvey
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 7:06 PM
To: NSPOF-Tech Support; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe

 

unsubscribe

 

 

Ron Harvey

Director, ISP Networks

Global Valley Networks

(209) 394-0228 p

(209) 892-0228 p

(209) 394-0328 f

(209) 605-6669 c

	-----Original Message-----
	From: NSPOF-Tech Support [mailto:techsupport at nspof.com] 
	Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 3:29 PM
	To: NSPOF-Tech Support; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
	Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe

	unsubscribe

	 

	 

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From Byoung at wehco.com  Tue Apr 11 09:18:21 2006
From: Byoung at wehco.com (Bob Young)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 08:18:21 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <C0605E0E.93D5%cgettings@videonext.com>
Message-ID: <06cf01c65d6a$683750d0$ed0101bf@wehco.com>

Re: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribeunsubscribe

  -----Original Message-----
  From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Chris Gettings
  Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 6:10 PM
  To: Ron Harvey; NSPOF-Tech Support; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
  Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe


  Wow these folks are all ISPs aren?t they? Its a wonder that internet thing
runs at all.


  On 4/10/06 7:05 PM, "Ron Harvey" <RonH at gvni.net> wrote:


    unsubscribe


    Ron Harvey
    Director, ISP Networks
    Global Valley Networks
    (209) 394-0228 p
    (209) 892-0228 p
    (209) 394-0328 f
    (209) 605-6669 c



      -----Original Message-----
      From: NSPOF-Tech  Support [mailto:techsupport at nspof.com]
      Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006  3:29 PM
      To: NSPOF-Tech Support;  ARIN-discuss at arin.net
      Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe


      unsubscribe






----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    _______________________________________________
    ARIN-discuss mailing list
    ARIN-discuss at arin.net
    http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss


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From Brock.Fisher at qwest.com  Tue Apr 11 09:23:11 2006
From: Brock.Fisher at qwest.com (Fisher, Brock)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 08:23:11 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe
Message-ID: <E255704271C4EE4089847163452923BABAEAF5@itomae2km04.AD.QINTRA.COM>

To Change you options to this List
 
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/options/arin-discuss/ (add your Email
address here)

	-----Original Message-----
	From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Bob Young
	Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 09:18
	To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
	Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
	
	
	unsubscribe
	

		-----Original Message-----
		From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Chris Gettings
		Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 6:10 PM
		To: Ron Harvey; NSPOF-Tech Support;
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
		Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
		
		
		Wow these folks are all ISPs aren't they? Its a wonder
that internet thing runs at all.
		
		
		On 4/10/06 7:05 PM, "Ron Harvey" <RonH at gvni.net> wrote:
		
		

			unsubscribe
			
			 
			Ron Harvey
			Director, ISP Networks
			Global Valley Networks
			(209) 394-0228 p
			(209) 892-0228 p
			(209) 394-0328 f
			(209) 605-6669 c
			

				
				 
				-----Original Message-----
				From: NSPOF-Tech  Support
[mailto:techsupport at nspof.com] 
				Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006  3:29 PM
				To: NSPOF-Tech Support;
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
				Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW:
unsubscribe
				
				
				unsubscribe
				
				 
				 
				

			
			
________________________________

			_______________________________________________
			ARIN-discuss mailing list
			ARIN-discuss at arin.net
	
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
			

		
		

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From darryl at speedfactory.net  Tue Apr 11 09:30:06 2006
From: darryl at speedfactory.net (Darryl Foster)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 09:30:06 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe
References: <06cf01c65d6a$683750d0$ed0101bf@wehco.com>
Message-ID: <001501c65d6c$0befe4c0$800101df@darryl>

Re: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribeunsubscribe
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Young 
  To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:18 AM
  Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe


  unsubscribe

    -----Original Message-----
    From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Chris Gettings
    Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 6:10 PM
    To: Ron Harvey; NSPOF-Tech Support; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
    Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe


    Wow these folks are all ISPs aren't they? Its a wonder that internet thing runs at all.


    On 4/10/06 7:05 PM, "Ron Harvey" <RonH at gvni.net> wrote:


      unsubscribe

       
      Ron Harvey
      Director, ISP Networks
      Global Valley Networks
      (209) 394-0228 p
      (209) 892-0228 p
      (209) 394-0328 f
      (209) 605-6669 c


         
        -----Original Message-----
        From: NSPOF-Tech  Support [mailto:techsupport at nspof.com] 
        Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006  3:29 PM
        To: NSPOF-Tech Support;  ARIN-discuss at arin.net
        Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe


        unsubscribe

         
         



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      ARIN-discuss mailing list
      ARIN-discuss at arin.net
      http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss





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  ARIN-discuss at arin.net
  http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss



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From rubenm at galaxyvisions.com  Tue Apr 11 09:53:03 2006
From: rubenm at galaxyvisions.com (Ruben Magurdumov)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 09:53:03 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW:  FW:  unsubscribe
Message-ID: <052801c65d6f$4148f050$75020a0a@ruben>

unsubscribe
 
 
----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Darryl Foster
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:30 AM
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
 
unsubscribe
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bob Young <mailto:Byoung at wehco.com>  
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net 
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
 
unsubscribe
-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Chris Gettings
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 6:10 PM
To: Ron Harvey; NSPOF-Tech Support; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
Wow these folks are all ISPs aren't they? Its a wonder that internet
thing runs at all.


On 4/10/06 7:05 PM, "Ron Harvey" <RonH at gvni.net> wrote:
unsubscribe

 
Ron Harvey
Director, ISP Networks
Global Valley Networks
(209) 394-0228 p
(209) 892-0228 p
(209) 394-0328 f
(209) 605-6669 c

 
-----Original Message-----
From: NSPOF-Tech  Support [mailto:techsupport at nspof.com]
<mailto:techsupport at nspof.com%5d>  
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006  3:29 PM
To: NSPOF-Tech Support;  ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe


unsubscribe

 
 
 

  _____  

_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
 

  _____  

_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss

  _____  

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/307 - Release Date: 4/10/2006
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From steves at creditprotect.com  Tue Apr 11 09:48:31 2006
From: steves at creditprotect.com (Steve Sizemore)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 08:48:31 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe
Message-ID: <19275C2EA6B14A489984D556B76E4D5DF647CD@exch_srv1.creditprotect.com>


Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Young <Byoung at wehco.com>
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net <ARIN-discuss at arin.net>
Sent: Tue Apr 11 08:18:21 2006
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe

unsubscribe


-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On
Behalf Of Chris Gettings
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 6:10 PM
To: Ron Harvey; NSPOF-Tech Support; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe


Wow these folks are all ISPs aren't they? Its a wonder that internet thing
runs at all.


On 4/10/06 7:05 PM, "Ron Harvey" <RonH at gvni.net> wrote:



unsubscribe

 
Ron Harvey
Director, ISP Networks
Global Valley Networks
(209) 394-0228 p
(209) 892-0228 p
(209) 394-0328 f
(209) 605-6669 c



 
-----Original Message-----
From: NSPOF-Tech  Support [ mailto:techsupport at nspof.com] 
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006  3:29 PM
To: NSPOF-Tech Support;  ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe


unsubscribe

 
 




  _____  

_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss





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any way from its use.



From bk at kola.com  Tue Apr 11 10:02:55 2006
From: bk at kola.com (Brian Kolaci)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:02:55 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <2137EE6C85F33B439D968120989760AD01D25092@ems2.evanscompanies.net>
References: <2137EE6C85F33B439D968120989760AD01D25092@ems2.evanscompanies.net>
Message-ID: <443BB70F.9090807@kola.com>

Its so amazing there are so many clueless people on this list.

WHY DO PEOPLE THINK THEY SHOULD SEND AN UNSUBSCRIBE MESSAGE TO EVERYONE
ELSE ON THE LIST AND THEY'LL GET REMOVED ???

FOLLOW THE FREAKING LINK INCLUDED AT THE BOTTOM OF EVERY MESSAGE
TO THE MAILMAN WEB PAGE THAT ALLOWS YOU TO REMOVE YOURSELF.  HAVE
YOU PEOPLE NEVER USED A MAILMAN MAILLIST?

I think thats why the person was dumbfounded that the folks on the
list are ISP's.  One would hope that some of these folks had a clue...
The internet is doomed if its controlled by the people on this list.

Ron Harvey wrote:
> so true
>  
>  
> *Ron Harvey*
> *Director, ISP Networks*
> *Global Valley Networks*
> *(209) 394-0228 p*
> *(209) 892-0228 p*
> *(209) 394-0328 f*
> *(209) 605-6669 c*
> 
>     -----Original Message-----
>     *From:* Leigh Sandy [mailto:Leigh at donet.com]
>     *Sent:* Monday, April 10, 2006 4:27 PM
>     *To:* Ron Harvey; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>     *Subject:* RE: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
> 
>     We are all too busy deleting spam and keeping things running...
> 
>         -----Original Message-----
>         *From:* arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>         [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] *On Behalf Of *Chris Gettings
>         *Sent:* Monday, April 10, 2006 7:10 PM
>         *To:* Ron Harvey; NSPOF-Tech Support; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>         *Subject:* Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
> 
>         Wow these folks are all ISPs aren?t they? Its a wonder that
>         internet thing runs at all.
> 
> 
>         On 4/10/06 7:05 PM, "Ron Harvey" <RonH at gvni.net> wrote:
> 
>             unsubscribe
> 
>              
>             *Ron Harvey
>             Director, ISP Networks
>             Global Valley Networks
>             (209) 394-0228 p
>             (209) 892-0228 p
>             (209) 394-0328 f
>             (209) 605-6669 c
>             *
> 
> 
>                  
>                 -----Original Message-----
>                 *From:* NSPOF-Tech  Support [mailto:techsupport at nspof.com]
>                 *Sent:* Monday, April 10, 2006  3:29 PM
>                 *To:* NSPOF-Tech Support;  ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>                 *Subject:* Re: [arin-discuss] FW:  unsubscribe
> 
> 
>                 unsubscribe
> 
>                  
>                  
> 
> 
>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>             _______________________________________________
>             ARIN-discuss mailing list
>             ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>             http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss


From zugang at wave2wave.com  Tue Apr 11 10:19:57 2006
From: zugang at wave2wave.com (Zugang Hou)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:19:57 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] YOU CANNOT UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST
	BYE-MAILING THE LIST!!!!! 33557
In-Reply-To: <200604102022.57925.lesmith@ecsis.net>
Message-ID: <007401c65d73$03db8c60$0201a8c0@w2wsrv2>

unsubscribe

Thanks,

Zugang Hou
Wave2wave Communications, Inc.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Larry Smith
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 9:23 PM
> To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] YOU CANNOT UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LIST
> BYE-MAILING THE LIST!!!!! 33557
> 
> 
> On Monday 10 April 2006 20:02, Chris Owen wrote:
> > If neither of these options work then something is wrong at 
> ARIN (and
> > obviously something _is_ wrong because they have a list with all
> > these people subscribed without their consent). 
> 
> Actually they probably got "subscribed" by having either IP 
> space, AS number 
> or something else from ARIN which asks if you want (I believe 
> from memory)   
> an arin-discuss membership - and they either did not pay 
> attention (read the 
> fine print) or did not "care" at the time (just wanted their 
> IP space or AS 
> or whatever) and clicked "yes"....
> 
> -- 
> Larry Smith
> SysAd ECSIS.NET
> sysad at ecsis.net
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss


From paul at vix.com  Tue Apr 11 11:16:16 2006
From: paul at vix.com (Paul Vixie)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 15:16:16 +0000
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:02:55 -0400."
	<443BB70F.9090807@kola.com> 
References: <2137EE6C85F33B439D968120989760AD01D25092@ems2.evanscompanies.net>
	<443BB70F.9090807@kola.com> 
Message-ID: <52037.1144768576@sa.vix.com>

> I think thats why the person was dumbfounded that the folks on the
> list are ISP's.  One would hope that some of these folks had a clue...
> The internet is doomed if its controlled by the people on this list.

i don't know if that's strictly true.  folks are saying "unsubscribe"
because they see others doing so, in two ways.  first, they don't WANT
to be on a mailing list where the main topic is "how to unsubscribe."
second, they assume that if others are unsubscribing this way, that
they also ought to be able to do so.  apparently LISTSERV would notice
"unsubscribe" alone on a line in a body and do something with it, so
there's some precedent.  i'll bet arin's "mailman" could be configured
to act on these, since mailman has every other feature known to mankind.

in any case, "internet is doomed, film at 11" is a very old story.  i
myself sang that song when abuse desks started rejecting MIME-attached
spam samples on the basis that "they might contain viruses."  but here
we are a half dozen years later.  apparently the internet is every bit
as survivable as its urban legends indicate, though for economic causes
rather than good design.

meanwhile this whole "unsubscribe" thread is very entertaining, sort of
like watching people get their cars stuck in the mud on my driveway, and
this time i don't even have to chain 'em up and pull 'em out.


From owenc at hubris.net  Tue Apr 11 11:47:04 2006
From: owenc at hubris.net (Chris Owen)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:47:04 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <52037.1144768576@sa.vix.com>
References: <2137EE6C85F33B439D968120989760AD01D25092@ems2.evanscompanies.net>
	<443BB70F.9090807@kola.com> <52037.1144768576@sa.vix.com>
Message-ID: <9D9EB429-AEAA-4191-AEF3-5A6B8ED2D43A@hubris.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Apr 11, 2006, at 10:16 AM, Paul Vixie wrote:

>> I think thats why the person was dumbfounded that the folks on the
>> list are ISP's.  One would hope that some of these folks had a  
>> clue...
>> The internet is doomed if its controlled by the people on this list.
>
> i don't know if that's strictly true.  folks are saying "unsubscribe"
> because they see others doing so, in two ways.  first, they don't WANT
> to be on a mailing list where the main topic is "how to unsubscribe."
> second, they assume that if others are unsubscribing this way, that
> they also ought to be able to do so.  apparently LISTSERV would notice
> "unsubscribe" alone on a line in a body and do something with it, so
> there's some precedent.

Actually it was just as annoying with LISTSERV.  It did use that  
command but only if you emailed the list administration address, not  
the list itself.  Of course people back then also didn't follow the  
instructions.

>   i'll bet arin's "mailman" could be configured
> to act on these, since mailman has every other feature known to  
> mankind.

Mailman has a setting to ignore (actually I think it rejects them)  
such emails.  Apparently it isn't on.

Chris

- --
Chris Owen
President
Hubris Communications
www.hubris.net

"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not to argue about it
or spend time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it."
   -- D.L. Moody



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From nmiller at visp.net  Tue Apr 11 12:02:47 2006
From: nmiller at visp.net (Nathan Miller)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 09:02:47 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <52037.1144768576@sa.vix.com>
Message-ID: <01ef01c65d81$6065da90$06e3e43f@LOCUW>

I agree with the entertaining comment.  Personally, I think this is a
cleverly fashioned idea by Arin to remove all those who shouldn't be on the
Arin-discuss list anyways. =)  This is good for the rest of us who remain!
I would assume most of the 'unsubscribe' messages we see are from people who
are unfamiliar with what ARIN is anyways.

I just saw it this morning, someone replied to one of these announcements
that had a subject of "YOU CANNOT UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LISTBYE-MAILING THE
LIST!!!!!" with "unsubscribe" as their response!  Now that's good for a few
laughs for all of us! =)

-------------
Nathan Miller
 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]
> On Behalf Of Paul Vixie
> Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:16 AM
> To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
> 
> > I think thats why the person was dumbfounded that the folks on the
> > list are ISP's.  One would hope that some of these folks had a clue...
> > The internet is doomed if its controlled by the people on this list.
> 
> i don't know if that's strictly true.  folks are saying "unsubscribe"
> because they see others doing so, in two ways.  first, they don't WANT
> to be on a mailing list where the main topic is "how to unsubscribe."
> second, they assume that if others are unsubscribing this way, that
> they also ought to be able to do so.  apparently LISTSERV would notice
> "unsubscribe" alone on a line in a body and do something with it, so
> there's some precedent.  i'll bet arin's "mailman" could be configured
> to act on these, since mailman has every other feature known to mankind.
> 
> in any case, "internet is doomed, film at 11" is a very old story.  i
> myself sang that song when abuse desks started rejecting MIME-attached
> spam samples on the basis that "they might contain viruses."  but here
> we are a half dozen years later.  apparently the internet is every bit
> as survivable as its urban legends indicate, though for economic causes
> rather than good design.
> 
> meanwhile this whole "unsubscribe" thread is very entertaining, sort of
> like watching people get their cars stuck in the mud on my driveway, and
> this time i don't even have to chain 'em up and pull 'em out.
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss



From dsd at servervault.com  Tue Apr 11 12:14:19 2006
From: dsd at servervault.com (Divins, David)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 12:14:19 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <F8B974E70BDE1745ABB27AF04788FA0001E811F5@mail1.dulles.sv.int>

My secret agenda is revealed.  I claim in public it was an accident.  In
reality it was a covert arin cleansing.

-dsd

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Nathan Miller
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 12:03 PM
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe

I agree with the entertaining comment.  Personally, I think this is a
cleverly fashioned idea by Arin to remove all those who shouldn't be on
the
Arin-discuss list anyways. =)  This is good for the rest of us who
remain!
I would assume most of the 'unsubscribe' messages we see are from people
who
are unfamiliar with what ARIN is anyways.

I just saw it this morning, someone replied to one of these
announcements
that had a subject of "YOU CANNOT UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LISTBYE-MAILING
THE
LIST!!!!!" with "unsubscribe" as their response!  Now that's good for a
few
laughs for all of us! =)

-------------
Nathan Miller
 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]
> On Behalf Of Paul Vixie
> Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:16 AM
> To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
> 
> > I think thats why the person was dumbfounded that the folks on the
> > list are ISP's.  One would hope that some of these folks had a
clue...
> > The internet is doomed if its controlled by the people on this list.
> 
> i don't know if that's strictly true.  folks are saying "unsubscribe"
> because they see others doing so, in two ways.  first, they don't WANT
> to be on a mailing list where the main topic is "how to unsubscribe."
> second, they assume that if others are unsubscribing this way, that
> they also ought to be able to do so.  apparently LISTSERV would notice
> "unsubscribe" alone on a line in a body and do something with it, so
> there's some precedent.  i'll bet arin's "mailman" could be configured
> to act on these, since mailman has every other feature known to
mankind.
> 
> in any case, "internet is doomed, film at 11" is a very old story.  i
> myself sang that song when abuse desks started rejecting MIME-attached
> spam samples on the basis that "they might contain viruses."  but here
> we are a half dozen years later.  apparently the internet is every bit
> as survivable as its urban legends indicate, though for economic
causes
> rather than good design.
> 
> meanwhile this whole "unsubscribe" thread is very entertaining, sort
of
> like watching people get their cars stuck in the mud on my driveway,
and
> this time i don't even have to chain 'em up and pull 'em out.
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss

_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss


From josh at skylist.com  Tue Apr 11 12:17:31 2006
From: josh at skylist.com (Joshua Baer)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:17:31 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <F8B974E70BDE1745ABB27AF04788FA0001E811F5@mail1.dulles.sv.int>
References: <F8B974E70BDE1745ABB27AF04788FA0001E811F5@mail1.dulles.sv.int>
Message-ID: <CF629577-8F2A-4144-9C05-9FD43A04BC89@skylist.com>

Sorry for contributing to this off-topic thread, but I feel compelled  
to point out this RFC for the List-Unsubscribe header (which is  
supported by this list) which was created about 10 years ago directly  
in response to a thread just like this one. I feel like such a  
failure that these threads are still happening 10 years later!

http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2369.html

~Josh


On Apr 11, 2006, at 11:14 AM, Divins, David wrote:

> My secret agenda is revealed.  I claim in public it was an  
> accident.  In
> reality it was a covert arin cleansing.
>
> -dsd
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Nathan Miller
> Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 12:03 PM
> To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
>
> I agree with the entertaining comment.  Personally, I think this is a
> cleverly fashioned idea by Arin to remove all those who shouldn't  
> be on
> the
> Arin-discuss list anyways. =)  This is good for the rest of us who
> remain!
> I would assume most of the 'unsubscribe' messages we see are from  
> people
> who
> are unfamiliar with what ARIN is anyways.
>
> I just saw it this morning, someone replied to one of these
> announcements
> that had a subject of "YOU CANNOT UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LISTBYE- 
> MAILING
> THE
> LIST!!!!!" with "unsubscribe" as their response!  Now that's good  
> for a
> few
> laughs for all of us! =)
>
> -------------
> Nathan Miller
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]
>> On Behalf Of Paul Vixie
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:16 AM
>> To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
>>
>>> I think thats why the person was dumbfounded that the folks on the
>>> list are ISP's.  One would hope that some of these folks had a
> clue...
>>> The internet is doomed if its controlled by the people on this list.
>>
>> i don't know if that's strictly true.  folks are saying "unsubscribe"
>> because they see others doing so, in two ways.  first, they don't  
>> WANT
>> to be on a mailing list where the main topic is "how to unsubscribe."
>> second, they assume that if others are unsubscribing this way, that
>> they also ought to be able to do so.  apparently LISTSERV would  
>> notice
>> "unsubscribe" alone on a line in a body and do something with it, so
>> there's some precedent.  i'll bet arin's "mailman" could be  
>> configured
>> to act on these, since mailman has every other feature known to
> mankind.
>>
>> in any case, "internet is doomed, film at 11" is a very old story.  i
>> myself sang that song when abuse desks started rejecting MIME- 
>> attached
>> spam samples on the basis that "they might contain viruses."  but  
>> here
>> we are a half dozen years later.  apparently the internet is every  
>> bit
>> as survivable as its urban legends indicate, though for economic
> causes
>> rather than good design.
>>
>> meanwhile this whole "unsubscribe" thread is very entertaining, sort
> of
>> like watching people get their cars stuck in the mud on my driveway,
> and
>> this time i don't even have to chain 'em up and pull 'em out.
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARIN-discuss mailing list
>> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss



From paul at vix.com  Tue Apr 11 13:18:44 2006
From: paul at vix.com (Paul Vixie)
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 17:18:44 +0000
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 11 Apr 2006 09:02:47 MST."
	<01ef01c65d81$6065da90$06e3e43f@LOCUW> 
References: <01ef01c65d81$6065da90$06e3e43f@LOCUW> 
Message-ID: <62069.1144775924@sa.vix.com>

> I just saw it this morning, someone replied to one of these announcements
> that had a subject of "YOU CANNOT UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS LISTBYE-MAILING THE
> LIST!!!!!" with "unsubscribe" as their response!  Now that's good for a few
> laughs for all of us! =)

i found out from posting here earlier that there's a ticket system wired up
to this mailing list.  that's probably where the unwanted traffic is coming
from that's making folks feel a need to unsubscribe and also feel that
unsubscribing from arin's list won't make the back-end ticket system STFU.


From kluge at fujitsu.com.au  Tue Apr 11 21:21:58 2006
From: kluge at fujitsu.com.au (Steffen Kluge)
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 11:21:58 +1000
Subject: [arin-discuss] FW: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <52037.1144768576@sa.vix.com>
References: <2137EE6C85F33B439D968120989760AD01D25092@ems2.evanscompanies.net>
	<443BB70F.9090807@kola.com>   <52037.1144768576@sa.vix.com>
Message-ID: <1144804918.24616.32.camel@syd0137.fujitsu.com.au>

On Tue, 2006-04-11 at 15:16 +0000, Paul Vixie wrote:
> meanwhile this whole "unsubscribe" thread is very entertaining, sort of
> like watching people get their cars stuck in the mud on my driveway, and
> this time i don't even have to chain 'em up and pull 'em out.

I, too, kind of enjoy the hilarity that's been ensuing here for last few
days. I wonder when The Register gets a whiff of this. I can imagine the
salient headline...

On the other hand I also share that uneasy feeling the Internet is run
by converted used car salesmen who through happenstance ended up selling
Internet access.

Cheers
Steffen.





From john.stadter at comspanusa.net  Fri Apr 14 20:02:38 2006
From: john.stadter at comspanusa.net (John Stadter)
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 17:02:38 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
In-Reply-To: <OF5CC4E48B.E0BA1384-ON0525714D.00028338-0525714D.00028C47@corp.codetel.com.do>
Message-ID: <20060415000250.01C791451D8@smtp2.arin.net>

Get me off this list!

 

  _____  

From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]
On Behalf Of Virgilio_Castillo at codetel.com.do
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 5:28 PM
To: Hostmaster
Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; peter at webperception.com;
arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information

 


Please take me out of this list. 





 

"Hostmaster" <hostmaster at ccom.net> 
Sent by: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net 

04/10/2006 04:12 PM 

        
        To:        <peter at webperception.com>, "'william(at)elan.net'"
<william at elan.net> 
        cc:        ARIN-discuss at arin.net 
        Subject:        Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment
Information




I would like to know how to get off this list also

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]
On Behalf Of PETER SKEELS
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 2:10 PM
To: william(at)elan.net
Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information

How do I get off this list???

______________________
Thank you,

Peter Skeels
WebPerception, LLC
"Your total resource for internet access and services."
1701 Novato Blvd., Suite 103, Novato, CA. 94947
voice 415.892.7711 ext. 13
voice 800.569.8062 ext. 13
fax   415.898.3974
peter at webperception.com
http://www.webperception.com

Our best advertising has always been referrals from customers so please
remember to mention WebPerception to your friends, colleagues, and
associates.



william(at)elan.net wrote:

>You're not required to provide your email address or phone for ARIN 
>reassignment records (yes, there are marketeers that will send postal
>mail advertisement, but that seems far from being serious issue).
>
>Phone and email are only required for contact information and that
>is optional and you can always choose to use your ISP's contact for 
>reassignment (in fact that is how its done for simple reassignment).
>
>On Mon, 10 Apr 2006, Gary Wall wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Hi Tom,
>>
>>I agree that there is a duty to be transparent. But open records are
>>abused by spammers and enforcement against them is like trying to get
>>the toothpaste back in the tube.  Maybe having a system that requires a
>>non-machine readable challenge-response like Godaddy or such might be
>>the solution for all parties that need to query this information. There
>>might be a backdoor for qualified parties on a need-to-know basis.
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>Gary
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Tom Vest
>>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 1:28 PM
>>To: ppml at arin.net
>>Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; Mark Erskine
>>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>>
>>If the information can be legitimately obscured, then it is only a
>>matter of time before the anonymity will be abused by unscrupulous
>>people.
>>
>>I think it would be prudent to take a letter from other "governance"
>>discussions, and strongly resist the temptation to combat "higher
>>level" abuses by imposing the enforcement burden on "lower level"
>>operations/administrative structures. ARIN and the RIRs are vested
>>with responsibility for maintaining records for number resources held
>>in public trust. If the records are abused, the specific abuses and
>>abusers should be targeted -- even if this is more difficult --
>>rather than taking the easy route of attacking the underlying systems.
>>
>>Tom
>>
>>On Apr 10, 2006, at 12:37 PM, G.Hiscott wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>if the information is available, then it is only a matter of time
>>>before it
>>>will be abused for marketing purposes by unscrupolous sales people.
>>> 
>>>
>>>___
>>>www.keyconnect.com
>>>
>>>...... Original Message .......
>>>On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:23:34 -0400 "Mark Erskine"
>>><MErskine at HostDepot.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>I'll second that!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Mark Erskine
>>>>Host Depot, Inc.
>>>>http://www.HostDepot.com
>>>>Phone: 954.340.3527
>>>>Fax: 954.340.3539
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>>>>[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Barry Dykes
>>>>Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:20 PM
>>>>Cc: ARIN-discuss at arin.net; ppml at arin.net
>>>>Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Privacy of Reassignment Information
>>>>
>>>>I have to say that I do not agree with making everything public.
>>>>Spam
>>>>and phishing are one thing, but I pay a lot of money to get my
>>>>customers
>>>>and more to keep them.  I have no intention of posting that for any
>>>>competitor to browse.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Barry A. Dykes
>>>>VP Engineering/Operations
>>>>ViaWest Internet Services
>>>>bdykes at viawest.net
>>>>303-407-4708
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>>      
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>>
>>    
>>
>
>  
>

_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss


_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss



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From grubb at hurontel.on.ca  Mon Apr 24 08:04:01 2006
From: grubb at hurontel.on.ca (Glenn Grubb)
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 08:04:01 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] dz
Message-ID: <00b901c66797$2f4bb090$8819ed0a@TOSHIBA>

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From mloevner at gnilink.net  Tue Apr 25 15:33:19 2006
From: mloevner at gnilink.net (Loevner, Michael)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 15:33:19 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
Message-ID: <923175FC567CCE4B84CA6D225B23CAAA014CA466@resmail01.restoncampus.com>

Hello,
 
If anybody is willing to share their companies' policies on screening
potential customers to determine whether a customer should be allowed an
IP assignment based on their abuse history, please e-mail me off list.
 
Thanks,
 
Mike Loevner
IP Address Management
Verizon Internet Services
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From Steve.Edge at htcinc.net  Tue Apr 25 15:42:57 2006
From: Steve.Edge at htcinc.net (Edge, Steve)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 15:42:57 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
Message-ID: <DE411005B957D442AE1A3D4C1ACDB5590257F269@HTCEXCHANGE.htc.com>

 I would also be interested in receiving the policy information.

Thanks,
 
Stephen J. Edge Sr. 
Network Transmission & Enhanced Services Engineering Manager 
Horry Telephone Cooperative, Inc. 
email: steve.edge at htcinc.net 
 

________________________________

From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Loevner, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:33 PM
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


Hello,
 
If anybody is willing to share their companies' policies on screening
potential customers to determine whether a customer should be allowed an
IP assignment based on their abuse history, please e-mail me off list.
 
Thanks,
 
Mike Loevner
IP Address Management
Verizon Internet Services

**********************************************************************
HTC Disclaimer:  The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.  Thank you.
**********************************************************************



From ipaddressing at atlanticbb.com  Tue Apr 25 15:54:31 2006
From: ipaddressing at atlanticbb.com (ipaddressing)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 15:54:31 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
Message-ID: <6E52E4E1B15ADE41BD0EACCAD6864C0A3F4395@ABBEX01.abb.msad>

I wasn't aware of such a screening process.  Is this standard ISP practice for smaller subnets such as /29 and up to /24.  I guess I am curious to some of these policies and procedures as well.
 
Thanks,
 
Jeremy McMasters
Network Engineer
Atlantic Broadband
 

________________________________

From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net on behalf of Edge, Steve
Sent: Tue 4/25/2006 3:42 PM
To: Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy



 I would also be interested in receiving the policy information.

Thanks,

Stephen J. Edge Sr.
Network Transmission & Enhanced Services Engineering Manager
Horry Telephone Cooperative, Inc.
email: steve.edge at htcinc.net


________________________________

From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Loevner, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:33 PM
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


Hello,

If anybody is willing to share their companies' policies on screening
potential customers to determine whether a customer should be allowed an
IP assignment based on their abuse history, please e-mail me off list.

Thanks,

Mike Loevner
IP Address Management
Verizon Internet Services

**********************************************************************
HTC Disclaimer:  The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.  Thank you.
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_______________________________________________
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http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss


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From cwzeth at warpdrive.net  Tue Apr 25 16:01:57 2006
From: cwzeth at warpdrive.net (Chris Zeth)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 16:01:57 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
References: <6E52E4E1B15ADE41BD0EACCAD6864C0A3F4395@ABBEX01.abb.msad>
Message-ID: <00c601c668a3$1c3681d0$6300a8c0@USCP.local>

Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policyLikewise here. Seems like a topic we are all interested in.

Chris Zeth 
Director of Operations
Warp Drive Networks  - A service of US Cable
www.warpdrive.net

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ipaddressing 
  To: Edge, Steve ; Loevner, Michael ; ARIN-discuss at arin.net 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:54 PM
  Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


  I wasn't aware of such a screening process.  Is this standard ISP practice for smaller subnets such as /29 and up to /24.  I guess I am curious to some of these policies and procedures as well.

  Thanks,

  Jeremy McMasters
  Network Engineer
  Atlantic Broadband



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net on behalf of Edge, Steve
  Sent: Tue 4/25/2006 3:42 PM
  To: Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
  Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


   I would also be interested in receiving the policy information.

  Thanks,

  Stephen J. Edge Sr.
  Network Transmission & Enhanced Services Engineering Manager
  Horry Telephone Cooperative, Inc.
  email: steve.edge at htcinc.net


  ________________________________

  From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
  [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Loevner, Michael
  Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:33 PM
  To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
  Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


  Hello,

  If anybody is willing to share their companies' policies on screening
  potential customers to determine whether a customer should be allowed an
  IP assignment based on their abuse history, please e-mail me off list.

  Thanks,

  Mike Loevner
  IP Address Management
  Verizon Internet Services

  **********************************************************************
  HTC Disclaimer:  The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.  Thank you.
  **********************************************************************

  _______________________________________________
  ARIN-discuss mailing list
  ARIN-discuss at arin.net
  http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  ARIN-discuss mailing list
  ARIN-discuss at arin.net
  http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
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From Warren.Bridle at Q9.com  Tue Apr 25 16:05:56 2006
From: Warren.Bridle at Q9.com (Warren Bridle)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 16:05:56 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
Message-ID: <413FEEF1743111439393FB76D0221E4803154AD3@leopard.zoo.q9networks.com>

How did I get on this list?  Better yet, how do I get off?
 
 

________________________________

From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Chris Zeth
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 4:02 PM
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


Likewise here. Seems like a topic we are all interested in.
 
Chris Zeth 
Director of Operations
Warp Drive Networks  - A service of US Cable
www.warpdrive.net
 

	----- Original Message ----- 
	From: ipaddressing <mailto:ipaddressing at atlanticbb.com>  
	To: Edge, Steve <mailto:Steve.Edge at htcinc.net>  ; Loevner,
Michael <mailto:mloevner at gnilink.net>  ; ARIN-discuss at arin.net 
	Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:54 PM
	Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy

	I wasn't aware of such a screening process.  Is this standard
ISP practice for smaller subnets such as /29 and up to /24.  I guess I
am curious to some of these policies and procedures as well.
	 
	Thanks,
	 
	Jeremy McMasters
	Network Engineer
	Atlantic Broadband
	 

________________________________

	From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net on behalf of Edge, Steve
	Sent: Tue 4/25/2006 3:42 PM
	To: Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
	Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
	
	

	 I would also be interested in receiving the policy information.
	
	Thanks,
	
	Stephen J. Edge Sr.
	Network Transmission & Enhanced Services Engineering Manager
	Horry Telephone Cooperative, Inc.
	email: steve.edge at htcinc.net
	
	
	________________________________
	
	From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
	[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Loevner,
Michael
	Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:33 PM
	To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
	Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
	
	
	Hello,
	
	If anybody is willing to share their companies' policies on
screening
	potential customers to determine whether a customer should be
allowed an
	IP assignment based on their abuse history, please e-mail me off
list.
	
	Thanks,
	
	Mike Loevner
	IP Address Management
	Verizon Internet Services
	
	
**********************************************************************
	HTC Disclaimer:  The information contained in this message may
be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the
reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or
agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying
of this communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this
communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the
message and deleting it from your computer.  Thank you.
	
**********************************************************************
	
	_______________________________________________
	ARIN-discuss mailing list
	ARIN-discuss at arin.net
	http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
	

	
________________________________


	

	_______________________________________________
	ARIN-discuss mailing list
	ARIN-discuss at arin.net
	http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
	

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From mloevner at gnilink.net  Tue Apr 25 16:09:53 2006
From: mloevner at gnilink.net (Loevner, Michael)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 16:09:53 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
Message-ID: <923175FC567CCE4B84CA6D225B23CAAA014CA46B@resmail01.restoncampus.com>

Right now we have no such policy, but I have been discussing the
feasibility of such a policy with our Legal department.  I know that
other ISPs do have policies like this, and I am interested in what kind
of screening and enforcement they use.  If anybody wants to respond,
feel free to respond to the whole list.

Thanks,

Mike Loevner
IP Address Management
Verizon Internet Services

-----Original Message-----
From: ipaddressing [mailto:ipaddressing at atlanticbb.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:55 PM
To: Edge, Steve; Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


I wasn't aware of such a screening process.  Is this standard ISP
practice for smaller subnets such as /29 and up to /24.  I guess I am
curious to some of these policies and procedures as well.

Thanks,

Jeremy McMasters
Network Engineer
Atlantic Broadband




From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net on behalf of Edge, Steve
Sent: Tue 4/25/2006 3:42 PM
To: Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


 I would also be interested in receiving the policy information.

Thanks,

Stephen J. Edge Sr.
Network Transmission & Enhanced Services Engineering Manager
Horry Telephone Cooperative, Inc.
email: steve.edge at htcinc.net


________________________________

From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Loevner, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:33 PM
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


Hello,

If anybody is willing to share their companies' policies on screening
potential customers to determine whether a customer should be allowed an
IP assignment based on their abuse history, please e-mail me off list.

Thanks,

Mike Loevner
IP Address Management
Verizon Internet Services

**********************************************************************
HTC Disclaimer:  The information contained in this message may be
privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent
responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you
are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of
this communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this
communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the
message and deleting it from your computer.  Thank you.
**********************************************************************

_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss


From paul at hostdime.com  Tue Apr 25 16:13:46 2006
From: paul at hostdime.com (Paul Fleming)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 16:13:46 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
In-Reply-To: <413FEEF1743111439393FB76D0221E4803154AD3@leopard.zoo.q9networks.com>
References: <413FEEF1743111439393FB76D0221E4803154AD3@leopard.zoo.q9networks.com>
Message-ID: <444E82FA.1040904@hostdime.com>

Uh oh, not this again.
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
And you got on this list cause you didn't pay attention when signing ip 
for IP Allocation/ASN Allocation
Warren Bridle wrote:
> How did I get on this list?  Better yet, how do I get off?
>  
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net 
> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] *On Behalf Of *Chris Zeth
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 25, 2006 4:02 PM
> *To:* ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> *Subject:* Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
>
> Likewise here. Seems like a topic we are all interested in.
>  
> Chris Zeth
> Director of Operations
> Warp Drive Networks  - A service of US Cable
> www.warpdrive.net <http://www.warpdrive.net>
>  
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* ipaddressing <mailto:ipaddressing at atlanticbb.com>
>     *To:* Edge, Steve <mailto:Steve.Edge at htcinc.net> ; Loevner,
>     Michael <mailto:mloevner at gnilink.net> ; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>     <mailto:ARIN-discuss at arin.net>
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:54 PM
>     *Subject:* Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
>
>     I wasn't aware of such a screening process.  Is this standard ISP
>     practice for smaller subnets such as /29 and up to /24.  I guess I
>     am curious to some of these policies and procedures as well.
>      
>     Thanks,
>      
>     Jeremy McMasters
>     Network Engineer
>     Atlantic Broadband
>      
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>     <mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net> on behalf of Edge, Steve
>     *Sent:* Tue 4/25/2006 3:42 PM
>     *To:* Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>     <mailto:ARIN-discuss at arin.net>
>     *Subject:* Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
>
>      I would also be interested in receiving the policy information.
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     Stephen J. Edge Sr.
>     Network Transmission & Enhanced Services Engineering Manager
>     Horry Telephone Cooperative, Inc.
>     email: steve.edge at htcinc.net
>
>
>     ________________________________
>
>     From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
>     [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Loevner, Michael
>     Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:33 PM
>     To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>     Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
>
>
>     Hello,
>
>     If anybody is willing to share their companies' policies on screening
>     potential customers to determine whether a customer should be
>     allowed an
>     IP assignment based on their abuse history, please e-mail me off list.
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     Mike Loevner
>     IP Address Management
>     Verizon Internet Services
>
>     **********************************************************************
>     HTC Disclaimer:  The information contained in this message may be
>     privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the
>     reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an
>     employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the
>     intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
>     dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is
>     strictly prohibited.  If you have received this communication in
>     error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and
>     deleting it from your computer.  Thank you.
>     **********************************************************************
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     ARIN-discuss mailing list
>     ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>     http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     _______________________________________________
>     ARIN-discuss mailing list
>     ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>     http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>   



From Walker.RJ at insightcom.com  Tue Apr 25 16:16:41 2006
From: Walker.RJ at insightcom.com (Walker, RJ)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 16:16:41 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
Message-ID: <7A492D3A3A7C174B9A433C4D107014C30BF0C768@KYLDCMS01.insight-com.com>

Count me in on this discussion.  I am interested in reading a policy that
addresses screening corporate (enterprise) or ISP customers as well.

 

R.J. Walker

Director IT Operations

Insight Communications Company

 

 

  _____  

From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]
On Behalf Of Chris Zeth
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 4:02 PM
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy

 

Likewise here. Seems like a topic we are all interested in.

 

Chris Zeth 
Director of Operations
Warp Drive Networks  - A service of US Cable
www.warpdrive.net <http://www.warpdrive.net> 

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: ipaddressing <mailto:ipaddressing at atlanticbb.com>  

To: Edge, Steve <mailto:Steve.Edge at htcinc.net>  ; Loevner,
<mailto:mloevner at gnilink.net>  Michael ; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
<mailto:ARIN-discuss at arin.net>  

Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:54 PM

Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy

 

I wasn't aware of such a screening process.  Is this standard ISP practice
for smaller subnets such as /29 and up to /24.  I guess I am curious to some
of these policies and procedures as well.

 

Thanks,

 

Jeremy McMasters

Network Engineer

Atlantic Broadband

 

 


  _____  


From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net <mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net>
on behalf of Edge, Steve
Sent: Tue 4/25/2006 3:42 PM
To: Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net <mailto:ARIN-discuss at arin.net> 
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy

 I would also be interested in receiving the policy information.

Thanks,

Stephen J. Edge Sr.
Network Transmission & Enhanced Services Engineering Manager
Horry Telephone Cooperative, Inc.
email: steve.edge at htcinc.net


________________________________

From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net <mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net>
] On Behalf Of Loevner, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:33 PM
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


Hello,

If anybody is willing to share their companies' policies on screening
potential customers to determine whether a customer should be allowed an
IP assignment based on their abuse history, please e-mail me off list.

Thanks,

Mike Loevner
IP Address Management
Verizon Internet Services

**********************************************************************
HTC Disclaimer:  The information contained in this message may be privileged
and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this
message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible
for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this
communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this
communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the
message and deleting it from your computer.  Thank you.
**********************************************************************

_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
<http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss> 


  _____  


_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss

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From hostmaster at lava.net  Tue Apr 25 16:16:46 2006
From: hostmaster at lava.net (LavaNet Hostmaster)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:16:46 -1000 (HST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.61.0604251016010.7693@malasada.lava.net>


On Tue, 25 Apr 2006, ipaddressing wrote:

> I wasn't aware of such a screening process.  Is this standard ISP 
> practice for smaller subnets such as /29 and up to /24.  I guess I am 
> curious to some of these policies and procedures as well.

Your first line of defence is to Know Your Customer. Get as much info 
on what exactly they intend to do, and where they got connectivity 
previously. Also, make sure that they read and sign the AUP.

And after a particularly bad experience that we had, I'd suggest asking 
them, in 100 words or less, to describe exactly what "Confirmed Opt-In" 
means to them, and then read their response over very carefully, and 
see if you pick up any danger signs.

Past that, you might want to check them out against this:

	<http://www.spamhaus.org/rokso/>

Aloha,
Michael.
-- 


From hostmaster at lava.net  Tue Apr 25 16:17:42 2006
From: hostmaster at lava.net (LavaNet Hostmaster)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:17:42 -1000 (HST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.61.0604251016560.7693@malasada.lava.net>


On Tue, 25 Apr 2006, Warren Bridle wrote:

> How did I get on this list?

You were assigned IP address space.

> Better yet, how do I get off?

This is from the headers of your message, and every message sent thru the 
list, and should contain the information you are looking for:

	<mailto:arin-discuss-request at arin.net?subject=unsubscribe>

Perhaps this should be appended as plain-text to the end of every message?

	:)

Aloha,
Michael.
-- 


From marla_azinger at eli.net  Tue Apr 25 16:18:48 2006
From: marla_azinger at eli.net (Azinger, Marla)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 13:18:48 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
Message-ID: <10ECB7F03C568F48B9213EF9E7F790D20295A547@wava00s2ke2k01.corp.pvt>

I screen.  I've shared this freely before.  But to get the requested information straight, what exactly do you want info wise?  A copy of my AUP?  And a outline of how I screen?  Those are two different situations.  AUP doesnt come into play unless I already turned them up.  Screening, or at least how I do it, they never get accepted as a customer and the order stops before install.
 
Marla
Frontier Communications

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of ipaddressing
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 12:55 PM
To: Edge, Steve; Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


I wasn't aware of such a screening process.  Is this standard ISP practice for smaller subnets such as /29 and up to /24.  I guess I am curious to some of these policies and procedures as well.
 
Thanks,
 
Jeremy McMasters
Network Engineer
Atlantic Broadband
 

  _____  

From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net on behalf of Edge, Steve
Sent: Tue 4/25/2006 3:42 PM
To: Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy



 I would also be interested in receiving the policy information.

Thanks,

Stephen J. Edge Sr.
Network Transmission & Enhanced Services Engineering Manager
Horry Telephone Cooperative, Inc.
email: steve.edge at htcinc.net


________________________________

From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[ mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Loevner, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:33 PM
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


Hello,

If anybody is willing to share their companies' policies on screening
potential customers to determine whether a customer should be allowed an
IP assignment based on their abuse history, please e-mail me off list.

Thanks,

Mike Loevner
IP Address Management
Verizon Internet Services

**********************************************************************
HTC Disclaimer:  The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.  Thank you.
**********************************************************************

_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss


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From mloevner at gnilink.net  Tue Apr 25 16:21:22 2006
From: mloevner at gnilink.net (Loevner, Michael)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 16:21:22 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
Message-ID: <923175FC567CCE4B84CA6D225B23CAAA01C26785@resmail01.restoncampus.com>

Marla,

I'm looking for screening information...before they have their service
turned up.

Thanks,

Mike Loevner
IP Address Management
Verizon Internet Services

-----Original Message-----
From: Azinger, Marla [mailto:marla_azinger at eli.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 4:19 PM
To: ipaddressing; Edge, Steve; Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


I screen.  I've shared this freely before.  But to get the requested
information straight, what exactly do you want info wise?  A copy of my
AUP?  And a outline of how I screen?  Those are two different
situations.  AUP doesnt come into play unless I already turned them up.
Screening, or at least how I do it, they never get accepted as a
customer and the order stops before install.

Marla
Frontier Communications
-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of ipaddressing
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 12:55 PM
To: Edge, Steve; Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


I wasn't aware of such a screening process.  Is this standard ISP
practice for smaller subnets such as /29 and up to /24.  I guess I am
curious to some of these policies and procedures as well.

Thanks,

Jeremy McMasters
Network Engineer
Atlantic Broadband




From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net on behalf of Edge, Steve
Sent: Tue 4/25/2006 3:42 PM
To: Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


 I would also be interested in receiving the policy information.

Thanks,

Stephen J. Edge Sr.
Network Transmission & Enhanced Services Engineering Manager
Horry Telephone Cooperative, Inc.
email: steve.edge at htcinc.net


________________________________

From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Loevner, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:33 PM
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


Hello,

If anybody is willing to share their companies' policies on screening
potential customers to determine whether a customer should be allowed an
IP assignment based on their abuse history, please e-mail me off list.

Thanks,

Mike Loevner
IP Address Management
Verizon Internet Services

**********************************************************************
HTC Disclaimer:  The information contained in this message may be
privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent
responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you
are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of
this communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this
communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the
message and deleting it from your computer.  Thank you.
**********************************************************************

_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss


From dnewsom at flmultimedia.com  Tue Apr 25 16:19:32 2006
From: dnewsom at flmultimedia.com (David Newsom)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 16:19:32 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
In-Reply-To: <923175FC567CCE4B84CA6D225B23CAAA014CA46B@resmail01.restoncampus.com>
Message-ID: <BCEBIFIMMCAHPJOHMHLFGEDFEJAA.dnewsom@flmultimedia.com>

To All:
Of our current Policy, here is a brief for SPAM/Bulk Email idea.  Please
don't use as whole nor make D.B.A. change.  Any copy of this should be
redone to company own policy and not copy this.  This is just for reference.
======================
Electronic Mail
The Service may not be used to send unsolicited bulk or commercial messages
and may not be used to collect responses from unsolicited e-mail sent from
accounts on other Internet hosts or e-mail services that violate this AUP or
the acceptable use policy of any other Internet service provider. Moreover,
unsolicited e-mail may not direct the recipient to any Web site or other
resource that uses the High-Speed Internet Service. Activities that have the
effect of facilitating unsolicited commercial e-mail or unsolicited bulk
e-mail, whether or not the e-mail is commercial in nature, are prohibited.
Forging, an altering, or removing electronic mail header is prohibited. You
may not reference Florida Multi-Media or the Florida Multi-Media network
(e.g. by including "Organization: Florida Multi-Media" in the header or by
listing an IP address that belongs to Florida Multi-Media or the Florida
Multi-Media network) in any unsolicited e-mail even if that e-mail is not
sent through the Florida Multi-Media network or High-Speed Internet Service.
======================


Hope this give you some idea.

David Newsom
Network Operations
Florida Multi-Media Services, Inc.
ISP in Southeast USA


-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Loevner, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 4:10 PM
To: ipaddressing; Edge, Steve; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


Right now we have no such policy, but I have been discussing the
feasibility of such a policy with our Legal department.  I know that
other ISPs do have policies like this, and I am interested in what kind
of screening and enforcement they use.  If anybody wants to respond,
feel free to respond to the whole list.

Thanks,

Mike Loevner
IP Address Management
Verizon Internet Services

-----Original Message-----
From: ipaddressing [mailto:ipaddressing at atlanticbb.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:55 PM
To: Edge, Steve; Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


I wasn't aware of such a screening process.  Is this standard ISP
practice for smaller subnets such as /29 and up to /24.  I guess I am
curious to some of these policies and procedures as well.

Thanks,

Jeremy McMasters
Network Engineer
Atlantic Broadband




From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net on behalf of Edge, Steve
Sent: Tue 4/25/2006 3:42 PM
To: Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


 I would also be interested in receiving the policy information.

Thanks,

Stephen J. Edge Sr.
Network Transmission & Enhanced Services Engineering Manager
Horry Telephone Cooperative, Inc.
email: steve.edge at htcinc.net


________________________________

From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Loevner, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:33 PM
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


Hello,

If anybody is willing to share their companies' policies on screening
potential customers to determine whether a customer should be allowed an
IP assignment based on their abuse history, please e-mail me off list.

Thanks,

Mike Loevner
IP Address Management
Verizon Internet Services

**********************************************************************
HTC Disclaimer:  The information contained in this message may be
privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent
responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you
are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of
this communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this
communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the
message and deleting it from your computer.  Thank you.
**********************************************************************

_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss





From jake at recol.com  Tue Apr 25 17:27:00 2006
From: jake at recol.com (Jacob Epstein)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 17:27:00 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
Message-ID: <20060425212735.827E83A3837@mta1.recol.net>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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From marla_azinger at eli.net  Tue Apr 25 17:28:57 2006
From: marla_azinger at eli.net (Azinger, Marla)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 14:28:57 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
Message-ID: <10ECB7F03C568F48B9213EF9E7F790D202100D0C@wava00s2ke2k01.corp.pvt>

Here is how I screen:

1.  I review Account Name and domain name first.  If the name has what I call a red flag word I got research the company name, domain and all names I find in public registry.  Some key words I use are derivatives of *marketing, *data, *electronic, *Management, *Recourse and more.  You will kind of get the hang of what words can be red flags.

2.  Where I do my 
	-reading the services provided on the respective web site  
	-Google Groups and type in "name" and the word spam or abuse
	-Rokso list

Hope this helps
Marla

-----Original Message-----
From: Loevner, Michael [mailto:mloevner at gnilink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:21 PM
To: Azinger, Marla; ipaddressing; Edge, Steve; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


Marla,

I'm looking for screening information...before they have their service
turned up.

Thanks,

Mike Loevner
IP Address Management
Verizon Internet Services

-----Original Message-----
From: Azinger, Marla [mailto:marla_azinger at eli.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 4:19 PM
To: ipaddressing; Edge, Steve; Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


I screen.  I've shared this freely before.  But to get the requested
information straight, what exactly do you want info wise?  A copy of my
AUP?  And a outline of how I screen?  Those are two different
situations.  AUP doesnt come into play unless I already turned them up.
Screening, or at least how I do it, they never get accepted as a
customer and the order stops before install.

Marla
Frontier Communications
-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of ipaddressing
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 12:55 PM
To: Edge, Steve; Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


I wasn't aware of such a screening process.  Is this standard ISP
practice for smaller subnets such as /29 and up to /24.  I guess I am
curious to some of these policies and procedures as well.

Thanks,

Jeremy McMasters
Network Engineer
Atlantic Broadband




From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net on behalf of Edge, Steve
Sent: Tue 4/25/2006 3:42 PM
To: Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


 I would also be interested in receiving the policy information.

Thanks,

Stephen J. Edge Sr.
Network Transmission & Enhanced Services Engineering Manager
Horry Telephone Cooperative, Inc.
email: steve.edge at htcinc.net


________________________________

From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Loevner, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:33 PM
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


Hello,

If anybody is willing to share their companies' policies on screening
potential customers to determine whether a customer should be allowed an
IP assignment based on their abuse history, please e-mail me off list.

Thanks,

Mike Loevner
IP Address Management
Verizon Internet Services

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From marla_azinger at eli.net  Tue Apr 25 17:34:11 2006
From: marla_azinger at eli.net (Azinger, Marla)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 14:34:11 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
Message-ID: <10ECB7F03C568F48B9213EF9E7F790D20295A54A@wava00s2ke2k01.corp.pvt>

Here is the AUP I have been working with:

Acceptable Use Policy 

The following section of this Document comprises ELI's "Acceptable Use Policy" (AUP) as it exists the day that this agreement between ELI and the Customer is entered into. As UCE and "hacking" technology develops at an alarming rate and is expected to continue to do so, ELI reserves the right to add, remove, or modify specific prohibitions from this section of this Document. The Customer recognizes and agrees that the on-line AUP prohibitions, to be maintained by ELI and always available to all Customers and to the public at ELI Technical Support page, supersede the prohibitions listed in this document. 

Customer shall not do any of the following, or permit any third party under its control (including its customers and their authorized users [ad infinium]) to do the following, and must include provisions in its service agreements for its customers and authorized users that restrict them from doing any of the following: 
restrict or inhibit any other user from using and enjoying the Service and/or the Internet; or 
upload, post, publish, transmit, reproduce, distribute, or participate in the transfer or sale, or in any way exploit any information, software or other material obtained through the Internet which is PROTECTED BY COPYRIGHT or other proprietary rights or derivative works with respect thereto, without obtaining permission of the copyright owner or rightholder; or 
use the SMTP services of a third party for the purposes of relaying or sending electronic mail messages without the express permission of that third party; or 
host a publicly-accessible "open relay" mail server, open-proxy, or any other anonymous remailer service for any purpose, cause, or reason; or 
post a commercial advertisement to any USENET newsgroup, Internet "chat room", bulletin board, or similar forum, if the target forum is not specifically chartered for public advertisement by non-private parties of items "for sale"; or 
post to any USENET Newsgroup or other newsgroups, forum, email mailing list or similar group or list articles which are off-topic according to the charter or other public statement of the group; or 
send Unsolicited Commercial E-mail (UCE, also known as SPAM) to any number of e-mail users or lists; or 
maintain, or send e-mail to, "opt-in targeted marketing lists" if the Customer cannot demonstrate, to ELI's satisfaction, that the members of the list(s) have knowingly requested to be added to the list(s) in question through direct action of their own doing, and that easily-accessible, automated opt-out/removal mechanisms are in place and available to the members of the list(s); or 
engage in any activity that is, or appears to be, an attempt to gain unauthorized access to a remote system or network, or to gain information that could later be used to assist in gaining unauthorized access to a remote system or network, such as port scanning, dictionary attacks, Denial of Service attacks, server/service hijacking, etc.; or 
engage in any of the foregoing activities using the service of another provider, but channeling such activities through an ELI account or remailer, or using an ELI account as a mail drop for responses to UCE, or hosting a website that is advertised via UCE that originates from a non-ELI.NET-connected source, or otherwise requiring return transit through ELI's internet backbone; or 
falsify or "spoof" user information provided to ELI or to other users of the Service, and for handling all complaints and trouble reports made by its own customers and authorized users; or 
use the Service in violation or contravention of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended by the Telecommunications Act of 1996, or any other applicable law, regulation, order or other governmental directive, or abuse or fraudulently use the Service in any way not specifically set forth above. 
Advertise, transmit, or otherwise make available any software, program, product, or service that is designed to violate this AUP, which includes but is not limited to, the facilitating the sending of Unsolicited Commercial Email (UCE also known as SPAM). 
Further, if Customer is notified by ELI's Security/Abuse Response Team, via e-mail from abuse at support.eli.net to the Customer's abuse@[Customer's Internet Domain Name] mailbox (required by Item (d) of Section 6 of this agreement), or the Customer discovers on their own or through any other means, that the Customer themselves or any third party under his/her control (including his/her customers and their authorized users [ad infinium]) of a violation of any of the foregoing prohibitions, the Customer will take whatever steps are necessary to stop such activity, and prevent repeat violations by the offending entity. 

The customer will respond to all violations reported by the ELI Abuse Response Team within 1 (one) business day of the violation being reported, and will have put a stop to the activity within 2 (two) business days of the violation first being reported. If a single entity is responsible for multiple violation reports that are sent to the Customer by ELI's Abuse Response Team, only a single response from the Customer back to ELI's Abuse Response Team is required, provided that the Customer has taken whatever action was necessary to stop the current violation and prevent future repeat violations by the offending entity. 

If, after the Customer has notified ELI that the Customer has taken action to prevent future violations by a given entity, that entity is found accessing ELI's network, ELI may consider this a breach of ELI's system integrity, and ELI reserves the right to deal with this situation as detailed in Item (b) of Section 10 of the Internet Access Addendum signed by the customer. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ELI.NET 

... is a Network Service Provider, and does not directly host any web-sites or dialup customers. Our networking clients are typically ISP's, NSP's, and other LANs/networks. 

Complaints 

... regarding the violation of any of the above conditions by any of ELI's downstream networking clients or their customers, should include notification to the ELI.NET Security/Abuse Response Team <abuse at support.eli.net> in addition to the ISP/NSP the violation actually sourced from. 

Any complaints sent to <hostmaster at eli.net> <postmaster at eli.net> <webmaster at eli.net> or any other address @eli.net may be forwarded to the ELI.NET Security/Abuse Response Team <abuse at support.eli.net> - if the separate groups/individuals that answer those addresses have the time to do so. However, complaints sent to any of these addresses will take much longer to process if they are forwarded to the abuse team due to the delays in forwarding, as none of these addresses are valid points-of-contact for abuse complaints. 

Abuse complaints to <abuse at support.eli.net> are processed within two (2) working days upon receipt. Due to the volume of email notices sent to the ELI SART, this does not mean you will receive a reply, only that we will act on the complaint. 

Complaints to ELI.NET's Security/Abuse Response Team: 
Complaints to ELI.NET's Security/Abuse Response Team: 
Must be specific as to the nature of the complaint (i.e. UCE, Usenet Abuse, etc), and identify why you are complaining to ELI.NET about it. 
Must include in the body of the message or as a plaintext attachment; either an original copy of the offending message with full headers included, or be the relevant text portion of access and/or intrusion log files. Please do not attach binary 'documents' (MS word/PDF/etc), images, winmail.dat payloads, multi-file archives, or other application-specific files requiring specialized decoders. 
Optionally may include traceroute, WHOIS, or DNS output that demonstrates transit or support via ELI.NET's backbone to one of the responsible parties; that they are a networking customer of ELI.NET, or of one of ELI.NET's networking customers. 
ELI's Security/Abuse Response Team: 

... has collected a variety of links to references, online tools, and software to assist in the fight against net-abuse. Please feel free to bookmark the ELI NoSpam Page.  

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Azinger, Marla
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 2:29 PM
To: Loevner, Michael; ipaddressing; Edge, Steve; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


Here is how I screen:

1.  I review Account Name and domain name first.  If the name has what I call a red flag word I got research the company name, domain and all names I find in public registry.  Some key words I use are derivatives of *marketing, *data, *electronic, *Management, *Recourse and more.  You will kind of get the hang of what words can be red flags.

2.  Where I do my 
	-reading the services provided on the respective web site  
	-Google Groups and type in "name" and the word spam or abuse
	-Rokso list

Hope this helps
Marla

-----Original Message-----
From: Loevner, Michael [mailto:mloevner at gnilink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:21 PM
To: Azinger, Marla; ipaddressing; Edge, Steve; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


Marla,

I'm looking for screening information...before they have their service
turned up.

Thanks,

Mike Loevner
IP Address Management
Verizon Internet Services

-----Original Message-----
From: Azinger, Marla [mailto:marla_azinger at eli.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 4:19 PM
To: ipaddressing; Edge, Steve; Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


I screen.  I've shared this freely before.  But to get the requested
information straight, what exactly do you want info wise?  A copy of my
AUP?  And a outline of how I screen?  Those are two different
situations.  AUP doesnt come into play unless I already turned them up.
Screening, or at least how I do it, they never get accepted as a
customer and the order stops before install.

Marla
Frontier Communications
-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of ipaddressing
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 12:55 PM
To: Edge, Steve; Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


I wasn't aware of such a screening process.  Is this standard ISP
practice for smaller subnets such as /29 and up to /24.  I guess I am
curious to some of these policies and procedures as well.

Thanks,

Jeremy McMasters
Network Engineer
Atlantic Broadband




From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net on behalf of Edge, Steve
Sent: Tue 4/25/2006 3:42 PM
To: Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


 I would also be interested in receiving the policy information.

Thanks,

Stephen J. Edge Sr.
Network Transmission & Enhanced Services Engineering Manager
Horry Telephone Cooperative, Inc.
email: steve.edge at htcinc.net


________________________________

From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Loevner, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:33 PM
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy


Hello,

If anybody is willing to share their companies' policies on screening
potential customers to determine whether a customer should be allowed an
IP assignment based on their abuse history, please e-mail me off list.

Thanks,

Mike Loevner
IP Address Management
Verizon Internet Services

**********************************************************************
HTC Disclaimer:  The information contained in this message may be
privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent
responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you
are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of
this communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this
communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the
message and deleting it from your computer.  Thank you.
**********************************************************************

_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss


From dcanady at heraklesdata.com  Tue Apr 25 18:00:28 2006
From: dcanady at heraklesdata.com (Darren E. Canady)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 15:00:28 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
Message-ID: <3136C0922BFABD46B809A08E54F2FB000269F2E4@qmsexch0.QMS.NOC>

Adopting a "screening policy" is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED! 

 

In contrast, please recognize that your Acceptable Use Policy (AUP) will
be insufficient if you ever get "blacklisted" by the VERY OPENLY HOSTILE
anti-spam community. (It is also WISE to have your terms clearly
documented in your AUP for legal protections in case it's ever
necessary). 

 

PLEASE READ BELOW:   

 

My Experience: Our AUP was much like the one forwarded below, which also
made it clear that Spamming activities which in any way traversed our
network was a violation of that AUP, and subjected the customer to
possible termination.

                        

Unknown to us when we brought in a company named BlueStream Media, (a
company that complies fully with the CAN-SPAM Act), that the VERY OPENLY
HOSTILE anti-spam community sees you as a co-conspirator in their
"spamming" activities just for hosting them at your site. This company
is tracked in such a manner that once we SWiP'd the IP Addresses we
reassigned to them to ARIN, the anti-spam community looked us up, found
out the range we have from ARIN and "blacklisted" our (then) ENTIRE
/19!!!!!! As a result, any mail system that used SPEWS, Spamhaus, etc.,
for spam filtering service, then rejected all mail from our /19. We had
no knowledge of this until contacted by other customers reporting the
inability to send mail to certain destinations.  

 

Those "anti-spam wackos" had no concern for the fact that, as they saw,
none of the activities BlueStream conducted that they classified as SPAM
traversed our network. Thus though they acknowledged that BlueStream was
using their own set of IPs over a totally separate dedicated connection
was irrelevant. Our crime was hosting them in our facility. And no
matter how kind, gentle, apologetic, or how much you argue, beg or
threaten, they are relentless in their viciousness in responding to you.
Fortunately, there were a couple out there who, though not really
"kind", will give you some words of advice if you have the patience to
sift through the rest of the rants. 

 

To see the cries of many of their victims, one only need to visit
http://groups.google.com/group/news.admin.net-abuse.blocklisting?lnk=gsc
hg&hl=en. 

 

Many of the victims out there can do NOTHING about it, because many of
them are people hosted by an entity, which hosts an entity the anti-spam
community views as a spammer. Thus, if client ABC was hosted by company
DEF who also hosted client GHI, and the anti-spam community identifies
GHI as a "spammer", client ABC is helpless in getting their issue
resolved until DEF gets rid of GHI. 

 

And with the SPEWS list being what it is, (www.spews.org), there is no
person to respond if you go to their website looking for answers or
contact information. It's strictly an FAQ with no names, faces or other
means of direct contact, other than the Google news group provided
above, where the ELECTRONIC HELL begins as they seemingly get their
kicks out of trying to criminalize you. 

 

I like everybody else can do without the SPAM, and to a degree, I can
understand the attitudes and behaviors of the anti-spam community. But
those folks go off the deep end. They're like, suicide bombers that live
to do it again, and get joy out of it each time. 

 

In the end, we had to cancel the contract with BlueStream Media, for the
greater good of our customer-base. They were very understanding of the
bigger picture for us, and I actually felt for them. However, I never
got around to following up to see how they were doing in their
"legitimate" business initiatives. 

 

SO BE FOREWARNED!  Run your potential customer's names against the SPAM
Block Lists or ROKSO (Register of Known Spam Operations) found at
http://www.spamhaus.org/rokso/index.lasso. It was a very educational
experience, but one I don't recommend you go through in an Operational
Environment.

 

Need a little entertainment? See my battle at:
http://groups.google.com/group/news.admin.net-abuse.blocklisting/browse_
thread/thread/52b1fff795a80281/8e1f7078f42ddc18?q=BlueStream&rnum=2#8e1f
7078f42ddc18

 

 

 

________________________________

 

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of David Newsom
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:20 PM
To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net
Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy

 

To All:

Of our current Policy, here is a brief for SPAM/Bulk Email idea.  Please

don't use as whole nor make D.B.A. change.  Any copy of this should be

redone to company own policy and not copy this.  This is just for
reference.

======================

Electronic Mail

The Service may not be used to send unsolicited bulk or commercial
messages

and may not be used to collect responses from unsolicited e-mail sent
from

accounts on other Internet hosts or e-mail services that violate this
AUP or

the acceptable use policy of any other Internet service provider.
Moreover,

unsolicited e-mail may not direct the recipient to any Web site or other

resource that uses the High-Speed Internet Service. Activities that have
the

effect of facilitating unsolicited commercial e-mail or unsolicited bulk

e-mail, whether or not the e-mail is commercial in nature, are
prohibited.

Forging, an altering, or removing electronic mail header is prohibited.
You

may not reference Florida Multi-Media or the Florida Multi-Media network

(e.g. by including "Organization: Florida Multi-Media" in the header or
by

listing an IP address that belongs to Florida Multi-Media or the Florida

Multi-Media network) in any unsolicited e-mail even if that e-mail is
not

sent through the Florida Multi-Media network or High-Speed Internet
Service.

======================

 

 

Hope this give you some idea.

 

David Newsom

Network Operations

Florida Multi-Media Services, Inc.

ISP in Southeast USA

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net

[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]On Behalf Of Loevner, Michael

Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 4:10 PM

To: ipaddressing; Edge, Steve; ARIN-discuss at arin.net

Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy

 

 

Right now we have no such policy, but I have been discussing the

feasibility of such a policy with our Legal department.  I know that

other ISPs do have policies like this, and I am interested in what kind

of screening and enforcement they use.  If anybody wants to respond,

feel free to respond to the whole list.

 

Thanks,

 

Mike Loevner

IP Address Management

Verizon Internet Services

 

-----Original Message-----

From: ipaddressing [mailto:ipaddressing at atlanticbb.com]

Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:55 PM

To: Edge, Steve; Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net

Subject: RE: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy

 

 

I wasn't aware of such a screening process.  Is this standard ISP

practice for smaller subnets such as /29 and up to /24.  I guess I am

curious to some of these policies and procedures as well.

 

Thanks,

 

Jeremy McMasters

Network Engineer

Atlantic Broadband

 

 

 

 

From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net on behalf of Edge, Steve

Sent: Tue 4/25/2006 3:42 PM

To: Loevner, Michael; ARIN-discuss at arin.net

Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy

 

 

 I would also be interested in receiving the policy information.

 

Thanks,

 

Stephen J. Edge Sr.

Network Transmission & Enhanced Services Engineering Manager

Horry Telephone Cooperative, Inc.

email: steve.edge at htcinc.net

 

 

________________________________

 

From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net

[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Loevner, Michael

Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:33 PM

To: ARIN-discuss at arin.net

Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy

 

 

Hello,

 

If anybody is willing to share their companies' policies on screening

potential customers to determine whether a customer should be allowed an

IP assignment based on their abuse history, please e-mail me off list.

 

Thanks,

 

Mike Loevner

IP Address Management

Verizon Internet Services

 

**********************************************************************

HTC Disclaimer:  The information contained in this message may be

privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader

of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent

responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you

are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of

this communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this

communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the

message and deleting it from your computer.  Thank you.

**********************************************************************

 

_______________________________________________

ARIN-discuss mailing list

ARIN-discuss at arin.net

http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss

_______________________________________________

ARIN-discuss mailing list

ARIN-discuss at arin.net

http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss

 

 

 

_______________________________________________

ARIN-discuss mailing list

ARIN-discuss at arin.net

http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss

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From arin-member at quadrix.com  Tue Apr 25 18:37:50 2006
From: arin-member at quadrix.com (Bill Van Emburg)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 17:37:50 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
In-Reply-To: <mailman.52827.1146002432.22761.arin-discuss@arin.net>
References: <mailman.52827.1146002432.22761.arin-discuss@arin.net>
Message-ID: <444EA4BE.70701@quadrix.com>


> From: "Darren E. Canady" <dcanady at heraklesdata.com>
> 
> In contrast, please recognize that your Acceptable Use Policy (AUP) will
> be insufficient if you ever get "blacklisted" by the VERY OPENLY HOSTILE
> anti-spam community. (It is also WISE to have your terms clearly
> documented in your AUP for legal protections in case it's ever
> necessary). 
> [...]
> 
> In the end, we had to cancel the contract with BlueStream Media, for the
> greater good of our customer-base. They were very understanding of the
> bigger picture for us, and I actually felt for them. However, I never
> got around to following up to see how they were doing in their
> "legitimate" business initiatives. 
> 
While I, having suffered the consequences of major ISPs'
auto-blacklisting me for the "crime" of forwarding my customers' e-mail
to them without adequate spam filtering, can *certainly* feel for the
pain and frustration you endured, you've got to admit, their policy is
working....

After much pain, you've learned that you must actively screen your
potential customers.  I completely agree with the advice you shared --
check against these blacklists, and don't take on the customer if
they're on one of them.  It's too painful.

But, you gotta admit, that means that the anti-spam community is
achieving its goal of making the Internet a hostile place for spammers
and those for whom they advertise.

-Bill Van Emburg
Quadrix Solutions, Inc.



From sysadmin at amhosting.com  Tue Apr 25 19:01:08 2006
From: sysadmin at amhosting.com (Stephen Satchell)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 16:01:08 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
In-Reply-To: <3136C0922BFABD46B809A08E54F2FB000269F2E4@qmsexch0.QMS.NOC>
References: <3136C0922BFABD46B809A08E54F2FB000269F2E4@qmsexch0.QMS.NOC>
Message-ID: <444EAA34.3060508@amhosting.com>

Darren E. Canady wrote:
> Those "anti-spam wackos" had no concern for the fact that, as they saw,
> none of the activities BlueStream conducted that they classified as SPAM
> traversed our network. Thus though they acknowledged that BlueStream was
> using their own set of IPs over a totally separate dedicated connection
> was irrelevant. Our crime was hosting them in our facility. And no
> matter how kind, gentle, apologetic, or how much you argue, beg or
> threaten, they are relentless in their viciousness in responding to you.

That's because of certain large companies who continuously thumb their 
noses at mail administrators (and system administrators, too) who ask 
that said large company to be RFC-1185 compliant.

(Some people say that if you provide *any* support for spammers -- 
power, floor space, router transversal, even accounting services -- 
that's "spam support" and should be isolated.  Yes, that's extreme.  So 
is the five million connection attempts to two of my mail servers.)

But I think that discussion goes far afield of the original question: 
how do you screen customers.  One reason that American Internet has 
*not* gone the automatic-signup route is that we like to do a little due 
diligence before opening our servers and network to "jest anyone."

Our biggest tool is where we check to see if the submitted information 
is consistent:  physical address isn't wonky (zip code in California for 
a site in New York -- it happens), physical address and node address of 
the IP are close.  For existing domain names, we run them past SpamHaus' 
ROKSO list.

Our billing department has also developed some rules of thumb, based on 
experience with the bad apples that do get through.  The result has been 
heartening -- the number of spam complaints about us sourcing spam has 
dropped.  (It's helped that I rooted out the smart-host customers who 
relay spam through my servers, too.)

For many of the sign-ups that don't pass first muster, we ask for 
clarifications.  For strings of bogus look-ups, we find that IPTABLES is 
our friend.

One other thing:  many systems do not properly track users who use a 
mail server for relay.  Part of the new architecture for my Plesk 
systems closed this loophole.



From Sam.Hill at Corp.WestPA.net  Tue Apr 25 19:11:58 2006
From: Sam.Hill at Corp.WestPA.net (Samuel Hill)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 19:11:58 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
In-Reply-To: <444EA4BE.70701@quadrix.com>
References: <mailman.52827.1146002432.22761.arin-discuss@arin.net>
	<444EA4BE.70701@quadrix.com>
Message-ID: <444EACBE.1040702@Corp.WestPA.net>


>While I, having suffered the consequences of major ISPs'
>auto-blacklisting me for the "crime" of forwarding my customers' e-mail
>to them without adequate spam filtering, can *certainly* feel for the
>pain and frustration you endured, you've got to admit, their policy is
>working....
>
>After much pain, you've learned that you must actively screen your
>potential customers.  I completely agree with the advice you shared --
>check against these blacklists, and don't take on the customer if
>they're on one of them.  It's too painful.
>  
>
What suggestions do you have for such screening?
You can check against black list but I do not think that is an effective 
way to screen customers.
You would be assuming that there is some sort of information that would 
match, but in many cases you will have company details.
Those company details generally do not include past IP addresses, past 
domains used, or any other information that could be used to compare.

I think the discussion still has failed to produce an answer.
There is certainly the need for screening.
The screening process needs to be streamlined, unless you are a very 
small ISP background research on potential customers would not be cost 
effective (as it looks now).
My only suggestion, be it flawed, is a centralized entity or source to 
check corporate background information in regards to internet usage.

I do not think the anti-spam community is effective, it is more of a 
band aid and nuisance.
A completely new way of thinking needs to happen for the anti-spam 
community to be effective.
There has been progress but currently we are attacking spam by blocking 
outside traffic, this discussion is more towards preventing inside 
problems.

Samuel Hill

>But, you gotta admit, that means that the anti-spam community is
>achieving its goal of making the Internet a hostile place for spammers
>and those for whom they advertise.
>
>-Bill Van Emburg
>Quadrix Solutions, Inc.
>
>_______________________________________________
>ARIN-discuss mailing list
>ARIN-discuss at arin.net
>http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>  
>



From jlewis at lewis.org  Tue Apr 25 23:16:20 2006
From: jlewis at lewis.org (Jon Lewis)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 23:16:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.4.61.0604251016010.7693@malasada.lava.net>
References: <Pine.BSI.4.61.0604251016010.7693@malasada.lava.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0604252311590.1846@soloth.lewis.org>

On Tue, 25 Apr 2006, LavaNet Hostmaster wrote:

> And after a particularly bad experience that we had, I'd suggest asking
> them, in 100 words or less, to describe exactly what "Confirmed Opt-In"
> means to them, and then read their response over very carefully, and
> see if you pick up any danger signs.

Doesn't matter.  The one's you have to worry about will lie and tell you 
what they think you want to hear.

> Past that, you might want to check them out against this:
>
> 	<http://www.spamhaus.org/rokso/>

Google is your friend.  (well, maybe not some of you:)
Google for your prospective customer by name, postal address, etc.  Check 
google groups too.  If the address shows up in lots of spam complaints, 
that's probably not a good sign.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jon Lewis                   |  I route
  Senior Network Engineer     |  therefore you are
  Atlantic Net                |
_________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_________


From mloevner at gnilink.net  Wed Apr 26 14:37:22 2006
From: mloevner at gnilink.net (Loevner, Michael)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:37:22 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
Message-ID: <923175FC567CCE4B84CA6D225B23CAAA01C26791@resmail01.restoncampus.com>

Thanks to to all for the responses, they have been quite helpful.  I'll
be using some of your tips as we move forward here.

Thanks,

Mike Loevner
IP Address Management
Verizon Internet Services

> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net 
> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of Jon Lewis
> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 11:16 PM
> To: arin-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
> 
> 
> On Tue, 25 Apr 2006, LavaNet Hostmaster wrote:
> 
> > And after a particularly bad experience that we had, I'd suggest 
> > asking them, in 100 words or less, to describe exactly what 
> "Confirmed 
> > Opt-In" means to them, and then read their response over very 
> > carefully, and see if you pick up any danger signs.
> 
> Doesn't matter.  The one's you have to worry about will lie 
> and tell you 
> what they think you want to hear.
> 
> > Past that, you might want to check them out against this:
> >
> > 	<http://www.spamhaus.org/rokso/>
> 
> Google is your friend.  (well, maybe not some of you:)
> Google for your prospective customer by name, postal address, 
> etc.  Check 
> google groups too.  If the address shows up in lots of spam 
> complaints, 
> that's probably not a good sign.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Jon Lewis                   |  I route
>   Senior Network Engineer     |  therefore you are
>   Atlantic Net                |
> _________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public 
> key_________ _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net 
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> 


From hostmaster at lava.net  Wed Apr 26 14:49:39 2006
From: hostmaster at lava.net (hostmaster at lava.net)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 08:49:39 -1000 (HST)
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0604252311590.1846@soloth.lewis.org>
References: <Pine.BSI.4.61.0604251016010.7693@malasada.lava.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0604252311590.1846@soloth.lewis.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.61.0604260845310.24268@malasada.lava.net>

On Tue, 25 Apr 2006, Jon Lewis wrote:

> On Tue, 25 Apr 2006, LavaNet Hostmaster wrote:
> 
> > And after a particularly bad experience that we had, I'd suggest asking
> > them, in 100 words or less, to describe exactly what "Confirmed Opt-In"
> > means to them, and then read their response over very carefully, and
> > see if you pick up any danger signs.
> 
> Doesn't matter.  The one's you have to worry about will lie and tell you 
> what they think you want to hear.

/me waves to Jon, a friend from Z!

Actually ... they may lie, or they may tell the truth, and you'll spot the 
disconnect. But even if they lie, you have caught them in it later when 
you can point to X and say, "Then how did this happen?"

Which is what we did in our notable case.
			
Also, if someone trumpets their 'CAN-SPAM' compliance without being asked 
about it, be very afraid, because quite frankly, as anyone who knows 
anything about that thing can attest, it was written so that spammers ... 
'CAN-SPAM'.

Thus the name.

> > Past that, you might want to check them out against this:
> >
> > 	<http://www.spamhaus.org/rokso/>
> 
> Google is your friend.  (well, maybe not some of you:)
> Google for your prospective customer by name, postal address, etc.  Check 
> google groups too.  If the address shows up in lots of spam complaints, 
> that's probably not a good sign.

Yeah.

Aloha,
Michael.
-- 
LavaNet System Department <system at lava.net>
Phone: 808-532-1393, FAX: 808-529-0596
Hours: Monday - Friday, 8AM - 6PM


From khunt at huntbrothers.com  Wed Apr 26 14:51:02 2006
From: khunt at huntbrothers.com (W. Kevin Hunt)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 13:51:02 -0500
Subject: [arin-discuss] Multihomeping proof for IP space request
Message-ID: <444FC116.40506@huntbrothers.com>

I have a client that will be multihoming with us and a new provider as 
soon as the DS3's are installed.  They will be dropping their current 
provider.
Can they go ahead and request their own IP space and somehow show proof 
that they will be multi-homed in 60 days or so?
The client wants to go ahead and start renumbering as they are afraid 
the current provider will abandon them when they get the news that their 
contract will not be renewed.

--
WKH


From Mike.Dewaele at caretechsolutions.com  Wed Apr 26 15:02:05 2006
From: Mike.Dewaele at caretechsolutions.com (Mike Dewaele)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:02:05 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Multihomeping proof for IP space request
Message-ID: <6F723B68F392FF4192A0900E5335D41404A897BB@ctmail.ctc.caretech.ad>

I will give an answer from my recent experience in our acquisition of
our AS number and address space. I was made to wait until I was dual
homed.

The dual Homing requirement raises a new question for me based on ATT's
recent merger/acquisition with/of SBC. Though they have not yet merged
networks I suspect they will one day. Will this negatively impact my
dual homed status? Surely I am not the only one out here who was dual
homed with ATT and SBC before the merger.

BONUS QUESTION: How many mergers are we away from where we were 30 years
ago?

Mike Dewaele
Caretech Solutions Inc.

-----Original Message-----
From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
[mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of W. Kevin Hunt
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 2:51 PM
To: arin-discuss at arin.net
Subject: [arin-discuss] Multihomeping proof for IP space request

I have a client that will be multihoming with us and a new provider as 
soon as the DS3's are installed.  They will be dropping their current 
provider.
Can they go ahead and request their own IP space and somehow show proof 
that they will be multi-homed in 60 days or so?
The client wants to go ahead and start renumbering as they are afraid 
the current provider will abandon them when they get the news that their

contract will not be renewed.

--
WKH
_______________________________________________
ARIN-discuss mailing list
ARIN-discuss at arin.net
http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss



From scott at carpathiahost.com  Wed Apr 26 15:13:02 2006
From: scott at carpathiahost.com (K. Scott Bethke)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:13:02 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Multihomeping proof for IP space request
In-Reply-To: <6F723B68F392FF4192A0900E5335D41404A897BB@ctmail.ctc.caretech.ad>
Message-ID: <160d501c66965$705f8780$16347542@carpy1>

I believe Arin requires multi-homing for your initial small allocation (of a
/22 or a /20) however I don't believe it is in policy to police your
multihomed status to keep that allocation.  I believe back in the day the
intent of the policy was that multihoming was a good reason for Provider
Independent IP space.   More than likely you won't hear from them until its
time to pay your dues.  If you have a /22 and you are requesting more space,
It may come into play there.  Though I believe that standard allocations of
/19 or larger do not actually require multi-homing, simple justification is
all that is required.

-Scott

> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net]
> On Behalf Of Mike Dewaele
> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:02 PM
> To: W. Kevin Hunt; arin-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: Re: [arin-discuss] Multihomeping proof for IP space request
> 
> I will give an answer from my recent experience in our acquisition of
> our AS number and address space. I was made to wait until I was dual
> homed.
> 
> The dual Homing requirement raises a new question for me based on ATT's
> recent merger/acquisition with/of SBC. Though they have not yet merged
> networks I suspect they will one day. Will this negatively impact my
> dual homed status? Surely I am not the only one out here who was dual
> homed with ATT and SBC before the merger.
> 
> BONUS QUESTION: How many mergers are we away from where we were 30 years
> ago?
> 
> Mike Dewaele
> Caretech Solutions Inc.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net
> [mailto:arin-discuss-bounces at arin.net] On Behalf Of W. Kevin Hunt
> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 2:51 PM
> To: arin-discuss at arin.net
> Subject: [arin-discuss] Multihomeping proof for IP space request
> 
> I have a client that will be multihoming with us and a new provider as
> soon as the DS3's are installed.  They will be dropping their current
> provider.
> Can they go ahead and request their own IP space and somehow show proof
> that they will be multi-homed in 60 days or so?
> The client wants to go ahead and start renumbering as they are afraid
> the current provider will abandon them when they get the news that their
> 
> contract will not be renewed.
> 
> --
> WKH
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss



From John.Hernandez at noaa.gov  Wed Apr 26 15:21:20 2006
From: John.Hernandez at noaa.gov (John Hernandez)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 13:21:20 -0600
Subject: [arin-discuss] Multihomeping proof for IP space request
In-Reply-To: <444FC116.40506@huntbrothers.com>
References: <444FC116.40506@huntbrothers.com>
Message-ID: <444FC830.1020007@noaa.gov>

Recent changes
W. Kevin Hunt wrote:
> I have a client that will be multihoming with us and a new provider as 
> soon as the DS3's are installed.  They will be dropping their current 
> provider.
> Can they go ahead and request their own IP space and somehow show proof 
> that they will be multi-homed in 60 days or so?
> The client wants to go ahead and start renumbering as they are afraid 
> the current provider will abandon them when they get the news that their 
> contract will not be renewed.
> 

There was a recently adopted policy proposal concerning Multihoming
rationale that I believe may have some bearing on your situation:

http://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2005_7.html

-- 

 |  John Hernandez - NOAA Boulder NOC - 303-497-6392
 |  Mailstop R/OM62. 325 Broadway, Boulder, CO 80305
 |  PGP Public Key ID: 586A7E23


From matt.pounsett at cira.ca  Wed Apr 26 15:29:34 2006
From: matt.pounsett at cira.ca (Matt Pounsett)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:29:34 -0400
Subject: [arin-discuss] Multihomeping proof for IP space request
In-Reply-To: <444FC116.40506@huntbrothers.com>
References: <444FC116.40506@huntbrothers.com>
Message-ID: <34CC74E8-FFE7-44D6-B5E4-B8E4ECC666B1@cira.ca>


On 26-Apr-2006, at 14:51 , W. Kevin Hunt wrote:

> I have a client that will be multihoming with us and a new provider as
> soon as the DS3's are installed.  They will be dropping their current
> provider.
> Can they go ahead and request their own IP space and somehow show  
> proof
> that they will be multi-homed in 60 days or so?

The current policy, from section 4.3.2.2 of the NPRM states:

For end-users who demonstrate an intent to announce the requested space
in a multihomed fashion, the minimum block of IP address space assigned
is a /22.

The previous text required applicants to already be multi-homed; the  
policy proposal that changed the text (policy proposal 2005-7) was  
recommended to the board after the October ARIN meeting, and I  
believe the change was adopted into the NPRM in February.

http://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html
http://www.arin.net/policy/proposals/2005_7.html

Hope this answers your question,
    Matt 
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From owen at delong.com  Wed Apr 26 16:45:13 2006
From: owen at delong.com (Owen DeLong)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 13:45:13 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] Multihomeping proof for IP space request
In-Reply-To: <444FC116.40506@huntbrothers.com>
References: <444FC116.40506@huntbrothers.com>
Message-ID: <57E7ED7815619D86D01BF662@imac-en0.delong.sj.ca.us>

I am told by ARIN staff (on an application I am working on) that
peering/transit
contracts with two providers can be used to show proof of multihoming.

Owen


--On April 26, 2006 1:51:02 PM -0500 "W. Kevin Hunt"
<khunt at huntbrothers.com> wrote:

> I have a client that will be multihoming with us and a new provider as 
> soon as the DS3's are installed.  They will be dropping their current 
> provider.
> Can they go ahead and request their own IP space and somehow show proof 
> that they will be multi-homed in 60 days or so?
> The client wants to go ahead and start renumbering as they are afraid 
> the current provider will abandon them when they get the news that their 
> contract will not be renewed.
> 
> --
> WKH
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss



-- 
If it wasn't crypto-signed, it probably didn't come from me.
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From ipgoddess at gmail.com  Wed Apr 26 19:07:45 2006
From: ipgoddess at gmail.com (Stacy Taylor)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 16:07:45 -0700
Subject: [arin-discuss] Spammer/Abuser screening policy
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.4.61.0604260845310.24268@malasada.lava.net>
References: <Pine.BSI.4.61.0604251016010.7693@malasada.lava.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0604252311590.1846@soloth.lewis.org>
	<Pine.BSI.4.61.0604260845310.24268@malasada.lava.net>
Message-ID: <1c16a4870604261607j1b0ae87foeea7705e8137d91@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Everyone!
My totally awesome abuse department has left for the day, and we may
or may not have a true screening process, but  from an IP Management
perspective, *I* personally screen when suspect requests come across
my desk.  Then I check with my Abuse team and deny their request for a
/21 of discontiguous /28s for WebHosting that they need immediately if
not sooner.  heh.  Abuse ROKSOs and Googlesearches on the company as
well as the principals, and checks channel and some other magical
sites I don't really know about.  If they are known abusers, I do not
assign IP address space to them.
I'll let you know what Abuse says sometime next week if this is still
a hot topic, (I'm chaperoning an overnight field trip God help me). 
If not, I'll just reply to Mike?
Take care!
:)
/Stacy

On 4/26/06, hostmaster at lava.net <hostmaster at lava.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Apr 2006, Jon Lewis wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 25 Apr 2006, LavaNet Hostmaster wrote:
> >
> > > And after a particularly bad experience that we had, I'd suggest asking
> > > them, in 100 words or less, to describe exactly what "Confirmed Opt-In"
> > > means to them, and then read their response over very carefully, and
> > > see if you pick up any danger signs.
> >
> > Doesn't matter.  The one's you have to worry about will lie and tell you
> > what they think you want to hear.
>
> /me waves to Jon, a friend from Z!
>
> Actually ... they may lie, or they may tell the truth, and you'll spot the
> disconnect. But even if they lie, you have caught them in it later when
> you can point to X and say, "Then how did this happen?"
>
> Which is what we did in our notable case.
>
> Also, if someone trumpets their 'CAN-SPAM' compliance without being asked
> about it, be very afraid, because quite frankly, as anyone who knows
> anything about that thing can attest, it was written so that spammers ...
> 'CAN-SPAM'.
>
> Thus the name.
>
> > > Past that, you might want to check them out against this:
> > >
> > >     <http://www.spamhaus.org/rokso/>
> >
> > Google is your friend.  (well, maybe not some of you:)
> > Google for your prospective customer by name, postal address, etc.  Check
> > google groups too.  If the address shows up in lots of spam complaints,
> > that's probably not a good sign.
>
> Yeah.
>
> Aloha,
> Michael.
> --
> LavaNet System Department <system at lava.net>
> Phone: 808-532-1393, FAX: 808-529-0596
> Hours: Monday - Friday, 8AM - 6PM
> _______________________________________________
> ARIN-discuss mailing list
> ARIN-discuss at arin.net
> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-discuss
>