[ARIN-consult] What do the ASN fees go to?
John Curran
jcurran at arin.net
Tue May 18 18:25:31 EDT 2021
Owen -
Yes, organizations that were previously paying a per-object ASN maintenance fee and who now move to a Registration Services Plan as a result of having IPv4 or IPv6 resources will no longer pay annual ASN maintenance fees anymore - ASN maintenance fees are subsumed for all customers with a Registration Services Plan.
The reason that I noted that that ASN fees are not changing is for the sake of those organizations that are _not_ moving - i.e. those that solely have ASN’s under their RSA.
Thanks!
/John
John Curran
President and CEO
American Registry for Internet Numbers
> On 18 May 2021, at 6:10 PM, Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:
>
> Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought under RSP, ASNs had an origination fee, but were subsequently included in RSP subscription at no annual recurring charge.
>
> This is a distinction and a change for resource holders not currently under an RSP because they currently do pay a $150/year ASN maintenance fee for each ASN.
>
> Owen
>
>
>> On May 10, 2021, at 12:37, John Curran <jcurran at arin.net> wrote:
>>
>> Correct - ASN maintenance fees are not affected by the proposed fee change and not the subject of this consultation.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> /John
>>
>> John Curran
>> President and CEO
>> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>>
>>> On 10 May 2021, at 3:17 PM, Citizen Support ARIN Support <ARIN at citizen.bz> wrote:
>>>
>>> ARIN is a registrar that handles ASN and IP addresses. If ARIN
>>> issued you one of these or both of these things they did give service.
>>> Change of contact info while required and should be up to date is
>>> not a denial of service to you. This looks like a person who has
>>> become disgruntled and trying to take this topic off topic from the
>>> task at hand.
>>>
>>> This thread is to talk about the possible future changes to fees which
>>> in general lower smaller users fee structure. Yes there is a few
>>> caveats on this but it has nothing to do with the current question of
>>> how fees are handled.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is an example that I have made for this example based on the fees
>>> of AS Number only.
>>> 150/yr
>>>
>>> 1u Server hosting in data centers with 1 internet connection using
>>> Centos 7 and ARINs BGP settings
>>> 200/month for a 100/mb circuit and 1 U
>>> 50-200/hr Labor (Can be anything from them helping you to a restart of
>>> the server due to iLO failure)
>>>
>>> now they have to have this in a High Availability Setup in 2+ data centers
>>>
>>> and you are complaining for a $12.50 a month fee? If you have a
>>> problem with your account or your contact info contact ARIN in their
>>> support paths please do not troll here.
>>>
>>> Use of this database, support, and anything else ARIN offers or not
>>> does not mean you do or do not have to pay them the ASN and IP blocks
>>> are Leased to you can you lease these forever yes but they are lessed
>>> not owned.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>> From: <arin-consult-request at arin.net>
>>> Date: Mon, May 10, 2021 at 2:38 PM
>>> Subject: ARIN-consult Digest, Vol 81, Issue 6
>>> To: <arin-consult at arin.net>
>>>
>>>
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>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Re: What do the ASN fees go to? (Steve Noble)
>>> 2. Re: What do the ASN fees go to? (Adam Thompson)
>>> 3. Re: What do the ASN fees go to? (Steve Noble)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 10:43:05 -0700
>>> From: Steve Noble <snoble at sonn.com>
>>> To: John Curran <jcurran at arin.net>
>>> Cc: "<arin-consult at arin.net>" <arin-consult at arin.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [ARIN-consult] What do the ASN fees go to?
>>> Message-ID: <aedc1296-95b7-4ef9-1492-ef2e3a3cd2a8 at sonn.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John Curran wrote on 5/10/21 9:47 AM:
>>>>
>>>> Steve -
>>>>
>>>> As noted earlier, ARIN provides many operational services for all
>>>> of the resources in the registry ? and these services are provided
>>>> even for number resources that have no requests pending or when
>>>> there are requests pending to change information but that lack
>>>> proper documentation.
>>>>
>>>> The consultation that is now underway is with regard to a fee
>>>> change proposal that does not change the maintenance fees for
>>>> ASN?s (although it will make them go away for many end-user
>>>> customers with IPv4 or IPv6 holdings due to their migration to the
>>>> Registration Services Plan with ASN registry services already
>>>> included :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hi John,
>>>
>>> Since paying the fees does not guarantee that you will receive service,
>>> it seems clear that the fees should be based on usage, not on
>>> resources.? If ARIN does not provide the services, then the fee should
>>> be reduced or removed.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Thank you,
>>> Steven
>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 13:01:56 -0500
>>> From: Adam Thompson <athompso at athompso.net>
>>> To: Steve Noble <snoble at sonn.com>
>>> Cc: John Curran <jcurran at arin.net>, <arin-consult at arin.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [ARIN-consult] What do the ASN fees go to?
>>> Message-ID: <cdfe3082d7dd5a06c9f02802550fc848 at athompso.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> Steven, that feels like a deliberate mis-characterization to me.
>>>
>>> You're right, you are not guaranteed to receive service, in much the
>>> same way you are not guaranteed to receive a payout from your car
>>> insurance if you don't have an accident. Or that you aren't guaranteed
>>> to watch CBS content even though it's included in your cable bundle:
>>> you're paying for (among other things) the right to access it on demand.
>>>
>>>
>>> As far as I know, however, paying your fee _does_ guarantee that ARIN
>>> services will be available to you if and/or when you need or want it.
>>>
>>> We pay for many, many things where we do not always take full advantage
>>> of the service we're paying for, because the provider has fixed costs
>>> regardless. Your local cableco charges a fixed amount for packages,
>>> regardless of which channels in that package you watch. When you stay
>>> in a hotel, you pay the same fee regardless of whether you spend 10
>>> minutes in the room, or 16 hours. Both examples, like ARIN, are where
>>> there are fixed costs to providing you *any service at all*, so the
>>> consumer is expected to defray those. (Insurance isn't so much a
>>> fixed-cost example, rather it's a "mutual" or "pool", but it works out
>>> much the same in the end.)
>>>
>>> I don't see how this is substantially different from any other provider
>>> with fixed costs - we shoulder their entire cost, we don't get to pick
>>> and choose. Where we do get to, the overhead is then baked into each
>>> and every price, and each and every one of us gets a raw deal. I
>>> shudder to think what per-second hotel billing would look like.
>>>
>>> -Adam Thompson
>>> athompso at athompso.net
>>>
>>> On 2021-05-10 12:43, Steve Noble wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Curran wrote on 5/10/21 9:47 AM:
>>>>
>>>> Steve -
>>>>
>>>> As noted earlier, ARIN provides many operational services for all of the resources in the registry - and these services are provided even for number resources that have no requests pending or when there are requests pending to change information but that lack proper documentation.
>>>>
>>>> The consultation that is now underway is with regard to a fee change proposal that does not change the maintenance fees for ASN's (although it will make them go away for many end-user customers with IPv4 or IPv6 holdings due to their migration to the Registration Services Plan with ASN registry services already included :-)
>>>
>>> Hi John,
>>>
>>> Since paying the fees does not guarantee that you will receive service,
>>> it seems clear that the fees should be based on usage, not on resources.
>>> If ARIN does not provide the services, then the fee should be reduced
>>> or removed.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Thank you,
>>> Steven
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ARIN-Consult
>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
>>> Consult Mailing
>>> List (ARIN-consult at arin.net).
>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
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>>> ARIN Member Services
>>> Help Desk at info at arin.net if you experience any issues.
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>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 11:38:46 -0700
>>> From: Steve Noble <snoble at sonn.com>
>>> To: Adam Thompson <athompso at athompso.net>
>>> Cc: John Curran <jcurran at arin.net>, arin-consult at arin.net
>>> Subject: Re: [ARIN-consult] What do the ASN fees go to?
>>> Message-ID: <a4853b03-4939-22ab-75c1-0de57b6b7c4d at sonn.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>>>
>>> Hi Adam,
>>>
>>> You make my point exactly, I will follow up in-line.
>>>
>>> Adam Thompson wrote on 5/10/21 11:01 AM:
>>>>
>>>> Steven, that feels like a deliberate mis-characterization to me.
>>>>
>>> It is not, but you may not have history about how I was refused service
>>> by ARIN for multiple years.
>>>>
>>>> You're right, you are not guaranteed to receive service, in much the
>>>> same way you are not guaranteed to receive a payout from your car
>>>> insurance if you don't have an accident.? Or that you aren't
>>>> guaranteed to watch CBS content even though it's included in your
>>>> cable bundle: you're paying for (among other things) the right to
>>>> access it on demand.
>>>>
>>>> As far as I know, however, paying your fee /does/?guarantee?that ARIN
>>>> services will be available to you if and/or when you need or want it.
>>>>
>>> That is incorrect, John can confirm that I was not allowed to use any
>>> services from ARIN for my ASN for a few years due to an issue with their
>>> database.? I was still required to pay the fee but I was not given
>>> access to the services i.e. I couldn't even update the mailing address,
>>> which I believe you are required to keep updated.
>>>>
>>>> We pay for many, many things where we do not always take full
>>>> advantage of the service we're paying for, because the provider has
>>>> fixed costs regardless.? Your local cableco charges a fixed amount for
>>>> packages, regardless of which channels in that package you watch.?
>>>> When you stay in a hotel, you pay the same fee regardless of whether
>>>> you spend 10 minutes in the room, or 16?hours.? Both examples, like
>>>> ARIN, are where there are fixed costs to providing you *any service at
>>>> all*, so the consumer is expected to defray those.? (Insurance isn't
>>>> so much a fixed-cost example, rather it's a "mutual" or "pool", but it
>>>> works out much the same in the end.)
>>>>
>>> If my cable company did not provide service to me for a year, I would
>>> expect that I would get that money back, so to your point, I should
>>> expect ARIN to pay me back for the time that they refused to provide
>>> services?? Since ARIN does not guarantee that the objects are usable, we
>>> are not paying for that, we are paying for services.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see how this is substantially different from any other
>>>> provider with fixed costs - we shoulder their entire cost, we don't
>>>> get to pick and choose.? Where we do get to, the overhead is then
>>>> baked into each and every price, and each and every one of us gets a
>>>> raw deal.? I shudder to think what per-second hotel billing would look
>>>> like.
>>>>
>>> It isn't and hence ARIN like all of the above named entities would be
>>> required to compensate any individual/organization that was denied service.
>>>>
>>>> -Adam Thompson
>>>> ?athompso at athompso.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 2021-05-10 12:43, Steve Noble wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> John Curran wrote on 5/10/21 9:47 AM:
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve -
>>>>>
>>>>> As noted earlier, ARIN provides many operational services for
>>>>> all of the resources in the registry ? and these services are
>>>>> provided even for number resources that have no requests
>>>>> pending or when there are requests pending to change
>>>>> information but that lack proper documentation.
>>>>> The consultation that is now underway is with regard to a fee
>>>>> change proposal that does not change the maintenance fees for
>>>>> ASN's (although it will make them go away for many end-user
>>>>> customers with IPv4 or IPv6 holdings due to their migration
>>>>> to the Registration Services Plan with ASN registry services
>>>>> already included :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>
>>>>> Since paying the fees does not guarantee that you will receive
>>>>> service, it seems clear that the fees should be based on usage, not
>>>>> on resources.? If ARIN does not provide the services, then the fee
>>>>> should be reduced or removed.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>> Steven
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> ARIN-Consult
>>>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN
>>>>> Consult Mailing
>>>>> List (ARIN-consult at arin.net <mailto:ARIN-consult at arin.net>).
>>>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>>>>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-consult Please contact
>>>>> the ARIN Member Services
>>>>> Help Desk at info at arin.net <mailto:info at arin.net> if you experience
>>>>> any issues.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Thank you,
>>> Steven
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